The Tibetan leadership must declare which Karmapa is real and which one is fake

(Left Karmapa Thaye Dorje and right Karmapa Ogyen Trinley) We have nothing against the real Karmapa. In fact the real Karmapa would be a great benefit to all living beings. But we are against and condemn the fake Karmapa. As the Tibetan leadership has taught us to condemn fake incarnations like the fake Chinese recognized Panchen Lama. We must condemn these fake incarnations. Following a fake incarnate lama would result in receiving fake teachings, fake practices, a broken lineage and basically dangerous to our spiritual practice. Following a fake practice will lead us to take rebirth in a lower realm as taught by the Dalai Lama. So the question is why does the Tibetan leadership not proclaim who is the real Karmapa? They have done so for other incarnations immediately? Why are they quiet about which is the real Karmapa? What are they afraid of? The Dalai Lama refuses to take photos with the Sharmapa recognized Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Do a search on the internet. You will not find any such photos. Yet the Dalai Lama endorsed Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has ran away to the US, rejected the Dalai Lama, rejected his government and rejected India. The Tibetan leaders need to be consistent and not be hypocrites and recognize the real Karmapa already. It has been decades of confusion. This two-Karmapa controversy has torn the Karma Kagyu lineage into two violent and fighting factions mudslinging verbal abuses at each other at every opportunity. It is a disgrace for the Karma Kagyu sect. It is a disgrace for Tibetan Buddhism. It is shameful of the Tibetan leaders. Many have become disillusioned and turned away from Tibetan Buddhism because of this Karmapa controversy. So much damage has been done. Tibetan leaders and government-in-exile perhaps should have never interfered with the Karmapa recognition in the first place? Which one is the real Karmapa?

The opinion piece below was sent to for publication. We accept submissions from the public, please send in your articles to [email protected].



By: Tenzin Jigme

The Tibetan people and Tibetan Buddhists worldwide look to the Dalai Lama for guidance on all spiritual matters. In addition the Dalai Lama’s government-in-exile, the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA; Tibetan leadership based in Dharamsala) has claimed that one of its responsibilities is to preserve all authentic Tibetan Buddhist lineages and protect them from distortions. In the past we have seen the Dalai Lama and CTA move enthusiastically to identify and expose fake incarnations and what they referred to as wrong practices. One example is when the Dalai Lama and Tibetan government moved swiftly to declare the Chinese-enthroned 11th Panchen Lama Gyaincain Norbu to be a fake incarnation of His Holiness the illustrious 10th Panchen Lama. The Dalai Lama stated in no uncertain terms that he had “conducted all the necessary religious procedures with great care” and was firm that the boy he identified, Gedhun Chokyi Nyima and not Gyaincain Norbu, was the correct 11th Panchen Lama. The Tibetan leadership’s rationale was that allowing the recognition and enthronement of a false claimant to a high spiritual seat would corrupt the Dharma, which they have the responsibility to preserve.

There is presently an extremely urgent need for the Dalai Lama and CTA to again “conduct all the necessary religious procedures” carefully and instruct the Tibetan people, especially followers of the Karma Kagyu sect. It is well known that for over 20 years now, there have been two Karmapa factions which have been in conflict with one another, often violently. With one faction headed by the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and the other headed by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje, the ancient Karma Kagyu lineage is effectively divided. Up until today, it continues to be confusing for ordinary people to decide who is the legitimate Karmapa and who is the impostor, in other words which Karmapa one should follow.

The Dalai Lama and Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, who has often been touted as a potential successor of the Dalai Lama. But now this Karmapa has ran away from Dalai Lama and India. He also had several high profile law suits against him in India still awaiting his return to resolve regarding financial issues.

Both Ogyen Trinley and Thaye Dorje were born in Tibet under the Chinese government, and both managed to escape with mysterious help from influential people with strong Chinese connections. Once in exile, their paths diverged. On the one hand, the Dalai Lama endorsed the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, giving the impression that he is the rightful claimant to the Karmapa throne. Ogyen Trinley has often been touted as a potential successor of the Dalai Lama. There is even a video of the Dalai Lama speaking to him and Ling Rinpoche, hinting that they could be the next in line to succeed the Dalai Lama.

Having said that, the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has clearly indicated by his actions in recent times that he will have nothing to do with the Tibetan leadership and has made efforts to break away from the Dalai Lama’s circle. It has led people to wonder why the Dalai Lama’s choice for such an important spiritual seat would do such a thing, and raised questions about the trustworthiness of the CTA’s decisions.

On the other hand, the Shamarpa also known as Shamar Rinpoche, the most senior regent of the Karma Kagyu who has traditionally held the responsibility of recognizing and enthroning the Karmapas, enthroned the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. The Dalai Lama and CTA have not acknowledged Thaye Dorje; the Dalai Lama has never once appeared in a photograph with Thaye Dorje, implying that he does not approve of his recognition. Furthermore, in a revealing statement made by Shamar Rinpoche in 1992, it becomes clear that the Dalai Lama even went back on his promise to give the young Thaye Dorje semi-monk vows. While the Tibetan leadership appear to have ignored Thaye Dorje, Thaye Dorje is well recognized by the most important Karma Kagyu lamas as well as leaders and heads of other Tibetan Buddhist sects, and has often been pictured being received by Bhutan’s Royal Family. Many of these lamas are highly and widely respected and so it is mystifying to ordinary people why the Dalai Lama would ignore and reject the Karmapa Thaye Dorje that so many highly attained lamas from various lineages recognize and accept.

Karmapa Thaye Dorje has himself received support from heads of state and religious leaders alike much to the dismay of the CTA. These include, the Former King of Bhutan Jigme Singye Wangchuck (top left); head of the Drikung Kagyu sect, Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche (top right); Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi Rinpoche, the reincarnation of the Nyingma master Dilgo Kyentse (bottom right); and Hambo Lama Damba Ayusheeyev, the head of Buryat Buddhists in Russia (bottom left).

To confuse matters even more, the Dalai Lama recently graced the Kagyu Monlam Festival presided by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje, and not the festival organized by the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley’s faction. The Kagyu Monlam is one of the most important prayer festivals for Karma Kagyu followers and the Dalai Lama would know the significance of his appearance at the Karmapa Thaye Dorje’s event. So why would the Dalai Lama publicly honor an event presided by the Karmapa he did not approve of and ignore the similar festival organized by the Karmapa faction he endorsed?

The CTA’s inconsistency – stepping in to expose the wrong Panchen Lama and yet staying silent on which is the wrong Karmapa; and also gracing an important event presided by a Karmapa the Dalai Lama refuses to endorse – is troubling, only adding to the confusion many already feel about which Karmapa to follow. After 20 years of Karma Kagyu divisions, perhaps it is time that the Dalai Lama and CTA make careful checks and openly announce which Karmapa everyone should follow, applying the same procedures they performed to warn people of the supposedly fake Chinese-enthroned 11th Panchen Lama. Recall that apart from declaring the Chinese Panchen Lama to be an impostor, the Tibetan leadership has also confidently declared the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden to be a so-called demon who should be shunned. The CTA even officially legislated to outlaw the practice. In the question of which Karmapa is the real one, it could be an investigation and announcement under the auspices of the CTA’s Department of Religious Affairs.

At this late stage in the matter, it would be unbecoming and a cop-out for the CTA to casually proclaim that both Karmapas are correct and that high lamas can take more than one incarnation. If it was really applicable in this case, then the CTA should have made this declaration from the very beginning of the controversy and avoided violent clashes between the two Karmapa factions. The Dalai Lama could have so easily given Thaye Dorje his semi-monk vows that Shamar Rinpoche had requested, and the Dalai Lama could have declared in 1992 itself that both Karmapas are legitimate and that he endorses both candidates. The fact the Dalai Lama and CTA did not do that would indicate that they already made their selection, and have therefore never believed that both Karmapas are legitimate incarnations of the 16th Karmapa. Therefore to avoid further delay, the CTA needs to take action now and make things clear for the anxious and confused public – which Karmapa should everyone follow?

That should not be difficult for the Tibetan leadership, given the resources at their disposal as well as their previous history of clear declarations regarding the real Panchen Lama and whether Dorje Shugden constitutes real Buddhist practice or not. For example, the Dalai Lama is believed to be an emanation of the Buddha of Compassion, Avalokiteshvara himself. Therefore the Dalai Lama is fully omniscient and with perfect clairvoyance. That being the case, the Dalai Lama and many attained lamas in his inner circle, as well as Tibet’s state protector Nechung can engage in widely-accepted forms of investigation and divinations to establish for sure which Karmapa incarnation is the right one that the people should follow and support.

The two Karmapas – on the top is the Chinese enthroned Karmapa Ogyen Trinley that the Dalai Lama endorsed. At the bottom is Karmapa Thaye Dorje whom the Dalai Lama refuses to endorse but has continuously received support from spiritual heads of other Tibetan Buddhists sects and also the royal family of Bhutan. Dalai Lama has never taken a picture with this Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Those who support Karmapa Thaye Dorje are considered against the Dalai Lama and called Chinese paid spies or working for the Chinese.

Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhists worldwide deserve to know which Karmapa to revere and which to avoid. Who should they make offerings to, to generate merits towards their spiritual practice and who should they stop supporting? The Dalai Lama and Tibetan leadership has a duty to protect the integrity of all Tibetan Buddhists from corruption, not just the traditions to which they belong. In addition, the Dalai Lama must surely know that those who follow false teachers and undertake wrong practices will end up in the lower realms and out of compassion the Dalai Lama must take steps to prevent innocent people from being harmed.

Neither can the CTA dodge this responsibility and say that as a secular government it cannot interfere with spiritual matters. The CTA is well known for interfering in Tibetan Buddhist matters and even private affairs of respective Tibetan Buddhist schools. In any case, the CTA must rise to its declaration to be a protector of authentic Tibetan Buddhist sects. Similarly, the Dalai Lama must perform his duty to lead followers of the wrong Karmapa away from the path of wrong views and false practices. How can an emanation of Avalokiteshvara and his government-in-exile refuse to rescue innocent people from following a false Karmapa? The fact that the CTA acted so swiftly and without hesitation when it came to the Chinese Panchen Lama Gyaincain Norbu, and yet remained silent for so long on which Karmapa is correct raises questions about whether the CTA is only interested when they can use Tibetan Buddhism as a political instrument to attack China’s credibility. Other damaging conflicts and even those triggered by the Tibetan leadership that do not give the CTA any leverage against China, seem to be neglected regardless of how damaging it is to Tibetan Buddhism. People cannot follow the fake Karmapa. Then they would be receiving fake teachings, false lineage and that would be highly detrimental. The Tibetan leadership must be consistent with all reincarnations to clearly reveal who are real and who is not real as did with Panchen Lama.

In addition, the CTA cannot deflect its responsibility and say that this is an internal Karma Kagyu matter. In fact, any time there is an attempt to distort Tibetan Buddhism as a whole, the CTA must act especially when it involves the second largest Tibetan Buddhist sect, the Karma Kagyu, which holds tremendous influence on practitioners worldwide. The CTA must not delay this any further especially given swirling rumors that the Karmapa Thaye Dorje’s son is in fact the incarnation of the 14th Shamarpa. Given that the Shamarpa is the second highest position in the Karma Kagyu, the question on everyone’s mind is whether the CTA will recognize the Karmapa Thaye Dorje’s son as the 15th Shamarpa, or if they will recognize and enthrone their own 15th Shamarpa candidate to throw the Karma Kagyu into a long, protracted and irreparable division, just like it did with the 11th Panchen Lama. The ball is in the CTA’s court – after two decades of infighting and disharmony, so much negative karma has been created and so it is high time that the CTA acts without further delays and negligence, to clear up the confusion for millions of Karma Kagyu practitioners worldwide.



As you can see Karmapa Thaye Dorje who is not supported nor endorsed by the Dalai Lama is leading the most important “Kagyu Monlam 2018″ prayer festival in Bodhgaya. Judging from the attendance, he enjoys great support. The irony is, the other faction of Karma Kagyus who support Karmapa Ogyen Trinley are not happy about this and have many scathing things to say. To add another twist, if you are Tibetan and support Karmapa Thaye Dorje, you are considered contradicting the Dalai Lama and therefore will be branded a traitor, Chinese paid informant and or spy. No one is allowed to contradict the Dalai Lama in this so-called democracy of a Tibetan government-in-exile. Tibetans and their leaders have a habit of branding factions of their own people as ‘paid by Chinese’ spies if they dare disagree with the leadership’s views. Many Tibetans secretly call their own government-in-exile residing in Dharamsala a regime.


Kagyu Monlam 2018: the story so far (photos)

Source: Click to enlarge.

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  1. Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje is fed up of how Tibetan leadership has been treating him and that is why he is rebelling against them. He has been recognized by the Dalai Lama as the Karmapa since a young age and he was controlled by the Tibetan leadership since then.

    The Tibetan leadership is grooming him to be a successor to His Holiness the Dalai Lama which is totally absurd. Tibetan leadership is desperate for power and their fear of losing power grew as His Holiness the Dalai Lama grows old. They need a new young and powerful lama to control.

    Hence, the Karmapa is the best choice. However, their plan backfired and Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje escaped to western countries in the name of seeking for medical treatment. He stayed over 1 year and now he refused to come back to India and took up a Dominican passport to escape from the clutches of Tibetan government. Tibetan leadership had lost their best bid for post-Dalai Lama time which means once His Holiness the Dalai Lama passed away, they will lose their influence and Tibetans In Exile will have freedom once again.

  2. Karmapa Thaye Dorje Ignores the Dalai Lama

    (1) Decades ago, the Shamarpa asked the Dalai Lama to endorse Thaye Dorje as the Karmapa. Shamarpa proved to the Dalai Lama that Thaye Dorje was the Karmapa. The Dalai Lama still refused as it will make the Dalai Lama look bad for endorsing Ogyen Trinley. ~

    It is known that Tai Situ Rinpoche recognized Ogyen Trinley by stealth. Tai Situ Rinpoche used the Dalai Lama’s fame to promote his Ogyen Trinley candidate in order to secure the Karmapa wealth of many generations.

    (2) Even though the Dalai Lama endorsed Ogyen Trinley as Karmapa, Thaye Dorje could not be restrained and continues to grow immensely in popularity all over the world. Even without the Dalai Lama’s endorsement, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is growing in importance. Tai Situ Rinpoche thought that without the Dalai Lama’s endorsement, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje would fall and become nothing. He was wrong.

    (3) Shamarpa Rinpoche had asked the Dalai Lama to at least ordain Thaye Dorje as a monk when he was very young and the Dalai Lama refused. This refusal hurt Shamarpa and the Karmapa Thaye Dorje very much. The Dalai Lama sidelined Shamarpa Rinpoche and Thaye Dorje. It was a grievous insult and detrimental interference. In the Karma Kagyu tradition it is the Shamarpa who is the first and foremost to recognize the Karmapas and only in his absence do other regents recognize the Karmapas. Not only did the Dalai Lama interfere in Karma Kagyu affairs but the Dalai Lama took sides. That caused so much fighting and disharmony within the Karma Kagyu school of Buddhism. Tai Situ Rinpoche was wrong not to consult with Shamarpa Rinpoche in all of this.

    (4) The Dalai Lama had no business interfering in Karma Kagyu traditions by recognizing a Karmapa. In the history of the Karma Kagyu school, there has not been one Karmapa recognized by a Dalai Lama nor did they ever need the Dalai Lama’s endorsement. This interference by the Dalai Lama has caused the Karma Kagyu school to take two sides and broke them up and created much disharmony. The disharmony, fighting and mud-slinging as to which one is the real Karmapa has continued to this day in 2019.

    (5) Shamarpa Rinpoche passed away in 2014 and it is up to the Karmapa to recognize his incarnation without the endorsement or interference of the Dalai Lama.

    (6) Now the Karmapa Thaye Dorje recognizes his son born in 2018 as Shamarpa Rinpoche’s incarnation and he does not ask the Dalai Lama to endorse this incarnation. He does not need it. The Dalai Lama has done enough damage. This will shift the dynamics of the Karma Kagyu school again in favor of the Shamarpa Rinpoche’s side. Unfortunately, it will make Ogyen Trinley look strange and left out in the cold. Within the Kagyu school, the Shamarpa is the next highest incarnation after the Karmapa. The Karmapas always recognized Shamarpas and vice versa. It shows that the Karmapa Thaye Dorje has the full authority to recognize the next highest incarnation within their school on his own. This Shamarpa will be spiritually trained by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje himself without the influence of the aged Dalai Lama and his government-in-exile which most Karma Kagyus consider a regime.

    (7) During the Kagyu Monlam prayers in Bodhgaya on January 2019, Thaye Dorje was there leading the Monlam (New Year’s prayers) and so was the Dalai Lama in Bodhgaya, giving teachings in another location nearby. The Dalai Lama, while in Bodhgaya, wanted to meet Thaye Dorje but Thaye Dorje refused. Thaye Dorje avoided the Dalai Lama. It was an insult to the Dalai Lama that he had to accept for all the damage he had done in their Karmapa affair and Karma Kagyu school.

    The Dalai Lama had sidelined Shamarpa and Thaye Dorje when asked to endorse Thaye Dorje decades ago. Now that the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has run away to the USA, the Dalai Lama wants to be friendly with Thaye Dorje so that he can get on the Karma Kagyu school’s good side. Without the Dalai Lama’s permission, the two Karmapas met in France and decided to mend the rift. This will make the Dalai Lama look bad. Even the Dalai Lama did not think in such a big way or a middle way to help mend the rift. Too bad and too late for the Dalai Lama to make friends with the Karma Kagyu school of Buddhism.

    So much damage has been done. But the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is on the way to mending all this.

    Karma Tsogyal


  3. It is very obvious that the Tibetan leadership are unwilling to make any announcement regarding which Karmapa is the real one because they have lost confidence in their own Karmapa which is recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Things have not been going smooth between Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and the CTA.

    Karmapa has not been exactly easy to control and manipulate by the CTA. He has his own will and he is not willing to be controlled by the CTA any further. He made his point clear by fleeing India and taking on a Dominican passport. His defiance is clear and there is nothing the Tibetan leadership can do about it.

    I guess Tibetan leadership is regretting why they did not recognise Karmapa Thaye Dorje now because that Karmapa seems to be doing quite well especially that his son could be very well the Sharmapa. CTA sneakily wanted to get close to this Karmapa now because obviously, this Karmapa is way more powerful and influential than Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. That is why, they cannot announce who is the true Karmapa yet because they are trying to get Karmapa Ogyen Trinley under control and in the meantime, they are trying to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje.

  4. Now that there are 2 Karmapas, when is the CTA going to tell us who is the real Karmapa? They cannot let the fake Karmapa destroy the lineage. If the followers follow the fake Karmapa, they will go to hell, this is very serious.

    The CTA has so much experience in recognising the real reincarnate lamas, they sure will have the capability to identify the real and the fake Karmapa. They did recognise the real Panchen Lama, didn’t they? They are so concerned about people following the fake Panchen Lama, why are they not doing the same for the Karmapa?

    Many Karmapa followers are very confused now. They are not sure who is the real Karmapa. For the beginners, it is even worse, they might just decide not to practice Vajrayana anymore, this will damage their spiritual path. The CTA has to protect the welfare of the spiritual practitioners, they have to make an announcement of who the real Karmapa is!

  5. Contemplate this:

    Indian journalists sound desperate when they talk about terrorist attacks on India. As this article correctly states, there is little that India can do to address terrorism as they seem to operate from Pakistan. To deal with the terrorists, Indians will have to literally attack Pakistan which it cannot do.

    Well, there is something India can do which is to stop Dharamsala’s terrorist activities against China being executed from Indian soil. The Tibetans have been attacking China for decades, yet they say they wish to return to Tibet. How do you return to a place you constantly criticize? The Dalai Lama is literally begging China to allow him to visit the Five Peaks of Manjushri pilgrimage site in China and also his birthplace in Amdo, Tibet. But if the Dalai Lama keeps criticizing China, why would they sit at the bargaining table with him? India allows for all of this to happen on Indian soil, so that would irritate China.

    Yet India wants concessions from China on the terrorist issue. Meanwhile, Beijing equates Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) leader Hafiz Saeed to India supporting the Dalai Lama against China for five decades now. Furthermore, India wants China to speak up against Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) Masood Azhar. But India does not speak up against Dalai Lama. Whether the world thinks the Dalai Lama is the good guy or not, he is a thorn in China’s side so anyone that supports him is not supporting China. Similar to the situation, LeT’s Hafiz Saeed and JeM’s Masood Azhar are a thorn in India’s side but they do not bother China and her allies, so why should China do anything about them? If India does something on the Dalai Lama, then it would be fair to ask China to do something about their support of Lashkar-e-Taiba leader Hafiz Saeed and Jaish-e-Mohammed’s Masood Azhar. Simple equation.

    These reports are really bare-faced hypocrisy. It implies one nation is helpless against terrorists because the terrorists camp out in another country. But that did not stop the US from heavily bombing Iraq on the basis that it was harboring terrorists. The US did not hesitate to overthrow the government and murder its leader Saddam Hussein.

    It is also very hypocritical that the same journalists who are outraged at China’s annexation of Tibet are quiet about Israel’s annexation of Palestine.

    It is interesting to note that most terrorist attacks are aimed at the US and her allies. Everyone conveniently forgets that the US has been throwing their weight around for decades and can even determine which leader they want in other countries.

    Back to India – if China can convince North Korea to have détente with the US, China can similarly help India with the JeM. India simply has to give up the Tibet card. The article is also a one-sided opinion piece because India faces as many terrorist threats from Bangladesh, with just as many terrorist camps, but because Bangladesh is not China, their involvement is not mentioned.

    India is a great country. China and India as friends will be able to influence the globe literally economically and, eventually, militarily. But India has to play fair. By supporting the Dalai Lama, India will get nothing and furthermore, it will be a stumbling block to China’s 1.4 billion people becoming friends with India’s 1.3 billion people.

    The Dalai Lama has to be compassionate and stop speaking against China because he has to consider the difficulty he places India in as his host. Each time he criticizes and allows his refugees to protest against China and ask for western support, it makes China look bad. So if the Dalai Lama wants China and India to become closer and benefit each other economically then he has to be silent on this already.

    The Diplomat’s Prarthana Basu sums it up very well by saying in the article below that “Now with another terrorist attack infuriating India’s populace, the mystery behind this Chinese silence remains unsolved. While most attribute China’s apparent silence as a favor to Pakistan, as both continue to maintain their “all-weather friendship,” others argue that China holds India responsible for granting political asylum to the Tibetan leader Dalai Lama, whom Beijing equates to Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) leader Hafiz Saeed.”

  6. Why is Tibetan govt in exile in India silent about this matter? Because they are the ones that created two karmapas and the whole mess and the huge division within Karma Kagyus. So after making the mess, they stand down, hide and keep quiet. Shame. 👎

  7. As the leadership of the Tibetans in the exiled community, the CTA definitely has the power to make things right. While the Dalai Lama is still around, they can easily use the name of the Dalai Lama to try resolve the conflict in Karma Kagyu lineage. Unfortunately, the CTA is not doing that because everything they do is motivated by what benefits will they give.

    What the CTA is capable of is creating conflict and tension in the Tibetan community, and they leave a mess behind. Solving a problem is too much of an effort and it brings more work to the CTA, they will not want to do that. They prefer to travel all around the world to enjoy free holidays and pretend to be a pitiful victim.

    Now that the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has run away, there is no reason for the CTA to get involved in the 2 Karmapas issue again because they don’t see any benefit in doing that. It is a messy problem, they will have to deal with so many people and it will be very stressful. Knowing the members of the CTA only want an easy life and be comfortable, they will continue to keep quiet and do nothing about the 2 Karmapas issue.

  8. Actually, the future for the Kagyu lineage is brighter now than before. It came as a big surprise when the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley gave up the Indian IC and became the citizen of the Dominican Republic. It was even a bigger surprise when the 2 Karmapas met up.

    What the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley did really upset the CTA but this is a very courageous act. It may look rebellious but it is a clear sign that people are fed up with the CTA. The Karmapa Ogyen Trinley cares about the Kagyu lineage more than being politically correct, that is why he ran away in order to do more Dharma work and he wanted to reconcile with the other Karmapa.

    Now the Kagyu tradition is no longer associated with the CTA anymore, this is actually a piece of good news. The 2 Karmapas can work together to clear the doubts in Kagyu lineage and continue to spread their precious teachings. The CTA only destroys a lineage but never preserves it. They create doubts but never try to resolve them.

  9. The CTA and Mr. Lobsang Sangay are definitely very delusional and refuse to see the truth. The Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorjee is not coming back, full stop! Who will be so stupid to go back to India to be controlled and under the surveillance for 24 hours, 7 days a week? The 17th Karmapa has already expressed his unhappiness towards the CTA, how he was not allowed to learn from many Kagyu masters and to spread Dharma. He is not that stupid to go back to them.

    Not only the CTA makes the lives of the Tibetans miserable, but they are also making the lives of the lamas miserable and depressing. This is how capable the CTA is. They are destructive and bring no benefit to anyone. Thus, to ask if the CTA will declare which Karmapa is real and to help to preserve the precious Karma Kagyu lineage? The answer is no.

    The CTA is only after their own benefits, they don’t care about the Tibetans, the preservation of the precious Tibetan Buddhism or anyone. This has been their culture even before they went into exile. The Dalai Lama wishes very much to change the political culture and mentality but he has failed. The Tibetan leadership still wants to control the Tibetans like in the old days, treating them and exploiting them like slaves.

  10. 1st Time Dalai Lama Finally Admits His Illness Was Serious

    In the past it is customary to cover up the Dalai Lama’s illnesses. It could be to not worry his flock. It could also be to not show the world he is just another vulnerable human being. Or it could be he does not want to disappoint people to show he is not a god? Whatever the reasons, the Dalai Lama and regime are well known for covering up his serious illnesses. In the past few years he had cancer of the prostate and that was covered up till the press dug it up. Now with this new video just out April 2019, Dalai Lama admits he was recently very ill. It was serious.

    Unfortunately the Tibetan cause will die with the Dalai Lama when he passes. He did nothing to groom up a new leader as he is a dictator. A ruler for life. He has been in power for over 60 years. He will never groom up another person to replace him because he is touted as a god.

  11. Not only the Dalai Lama has the capability to recognise a real reincarnation, the CTA has the capability too! Look at how they condemn the ‘fake’ Panchen Lama recognised by the Chinese government, the CTA is very sure which is the real one and which is the fake one. If they are so capable, why are they keeping quiet now?

    But hang on, can the Dalai Lama be wrong? He was so sure who was the real Panchen Lama. But recently, he said the Chinese recognised Panchen Lama is real too! So can we still believe what the Dalai Lama said? Perhaps the Karmapa recognised by the Dalai Lama is a fake? People are demanding the CTA and the Dalai Lama to give an answer because they are not sure anymore.

    It is very unfair of the CTA for not further clarifying who the real Karmapa is. If the practitioners follow the fake Karmapa, they will be following the fake teaching, if they follow the fake teaching, they will go to hell. This is no joke. But it seems like the CTA does not care about the spirituality of the practitioners, they only care about their face and what benefit they can get from doing something.

  12. Can you believe it? The Tibetan government still have not given us an answer on who is the real Karmapa and who is the imposter. Do they care about the practitioners who might be following the wrong Karmapa and go to hell after their deaths? WHy do they not clarify on this matter just like the Panchen Lama issue? They responded rather quickly for that but why so slow on Karmapa?

    Since they already recognised Ogyen Trinley as their Karmapa candidate and His Holiness has been appearing in public places with him. It is obvious that they are endorsing him as the real Karmapa. Since they are already doing that, what did they hesitate to make a statement on that? It will be clear and everyone in the world will have a definitive answer.

    The reason why CTA still reluctant to release the statement on who is the real Karmapa might be that they themselves are still unsure who is the real Karmapa or their candidate of Karmapa is not cooperating with what they want. CTA wanted to have a Karmapa that is willing to cooperate with what they want and adhere to their rules. Ogyen Trinley is not exactly the right candidate for that and hence, they are reluctant to announce that he is the real Karmapa. All CTA does is to benefit themselves and to manipulate the people around them to gain benefits out of the regardless who and what will get harmed in the process as the result.

  13. Unlike 5 years ago, Tibetan leader Lobsang Sangay is not invited to Prime Minister Modi’s swearing-in ceremony this time. It is clear that PM Modi of India snubs the Tibetan leadership once again in favour of deeper ties with China. The Tibetan leadership finds itself increasingly isolated as nobody wants to offend China by lending any support to the ungrateful Tibetans.

    PM Modi snubs Tibetan leadership for swearing-in ceremony
    By Tenzin Dharpo
    May. 30, 2019
    DHARAMSHALA, May 30: The Indian Prime Minister who is fresh off of a massive win in the Indian Lok Sabha elections has done a U-turn by not inviting exile Tibetan government’s President to the swearing in ceremony due to be held later today, in a bid to not anger Beijing.
    The President of the exile Tibetan government, known officially as the Central Tibetan Administration, Dr. Lobsang Sangay’s absence today at the Rashtrapati Bhavan in New Delhi marks a stark contrast to 2014 when the elected Tibetan leader was seated in the former rows at the ceremony when PM Modi was sworn into office the first time around.
    The invitation to Dr. Sangay in May 2014 drew strong objection from the Chinese government who lodged an official protest censuring New Delhi’s disregard for the so-called ‘One-China policy’. Many said at the time that the invite was posturing at most, of Modi’s intent to India’s neighbor and biggest rivals both in Asia and global arenas.
    The New Delhi-Beijing relations post the Doklam stand off and Wuhan summit has meant that India has given a cold shoulder to the exile Tibetan set up, thereby taking a step back in using the much-touted ‘Tibet card’. The shift in policy has markedly been seen on the ground with New Delhi issuing an advisory to senior leaders to avoid His Holiness the Dalai Lama or pushing the CTA to shift the “thank you India” ceremony from New Delhi to Dharamshala last year.
    The head of the Tibetan polity who extended pleasantries to PM Modi on his win, however may have anticipated the snub. Days after Modi’s historic election win, Sangay flew to the United States and is scheduled to return on June 5 to India next week.

  14. That is why CTA is reluctant to announce the Karmapa that they recognized which is the black Karmapa to be the real Karmapa. The black Karmapa is still not fully under their control and recently he had made a rebellious move which is to take up a Dominican passport which grants him freedom away from CTA’s clutches.

    CTA wanted to have full control over the Karmapa that has power. Since their plan with the Black Karmapa failed miserably, they tried to get the other Karmapa on their side. CTA seems to have forgotten that they rejected the Karmapa and even refused to give ordination to him when he was first recognized.

    CTA went to the Karma Kagyu that was preceded by the White Karmapa and tried their luck to connect with him. Fortunately, he was not there and their evil plans did not work out. Now without any candidate for Karmapa, they are desperate for a high lama that can succeed the Dalai Lama when he is no longer around.

  15. The main perpetrator of all the confusions and deceptions regarding the high lamas are created by the Tibetan government in their game of politics. High lamas are very influential in Tibetan society and CTA is trying to get as many high lamas on their side so they can influence the Tibetans to do their bidding.

    However, not all high lamas are willing to be under the Tibetan government because their goals are different. The high lamas worked for the benefit of the public while the Tibetan government have their own agenda. They only work their own benefit while sacrificing others in the process is not a big deal for them.

    Hence, many high lamas refused to work with the Tibetan government and one famous example will be Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. The Tibetan government was the one who gave Karmapa Ogyen Trinley his recognition and there is no reason for him to go against the Tibetan government. However, he is a true high lama and all he wants to do is to work for Buddha Dharma. Since the Tibetan government is not supporting on his goals, he left to the west and took up a Dominican passport so that he will be free from being controlled by the Tibetan government.

  16. PrajNa wrote:
    Alex wrote:

    The main perpetrator of all the confusions and deceptions regarding the high lamas are created by the Tibetan government in their game of politics. High lamas are very influential in Tibetan society and CTA is trying to get as many high lamas on their side so they can influence the Tibetans to do their bidding.

    The Tibetan leadership really creates a lot of confusion with the 2 Panchen Lamas, the 2 Karmapas, and many more double Tulkus or Rinpoches. They are really destroying the faith of people in these High Lamas. Who should the public listen to? How would people know which Lama is real?

    CTA does not care about the lineage or the teachings at all. All they think about is how to get a high lama on their side so they can control the Tibetans. They do not care about the spiritual path of those Tibetans who might have followed the wrong lineage lamas that CTA had recognised. CTA created the situation of 2 Panchen Lamas, 2 Karmapas, and other important high lamas as well.

    The strategy that CTA is using is divide and conquer. They will divide powerful large groups of Tibetans into smaller groups so they will not be as strong and CTA can easily rule over them. Hence, CTA is constantly creating schism in the Tibetans so that they won’t be able to form a large power to be a threat to CTA.

    This is how CTA ruled over Tibet for hundreds of years before the invasion. They are still doing it now because that is the only way they know on how to rule over Tibetans without having to earn their respect or have alot of acheivements to convince them.

  17. The CTA is run by a group of greedy and selfish people, they only care about their own interest. They want money and power and they will do anything to achieve their personal goals. People in CTA are fighting internally so their personal interest will not be threatened.

    The CTA sees no benefits in interfering the 2 Karmapa issues now because the Karmapa they recognised has run away from India and they have never recognised the other Karmapa since day one. The chances of them getting control of the other Karmapa is definitely not possible. Their intention has never been to protect and preserve the precious Vajrayana Buddhism.

  18. It is obvious that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is just a pawn to CTA, someone that CTA can use and just dump with no care or whatsoever. Ever since Karmapa Ogyen Trinley ran away to the west, CTA had been trying to get him to come back with various methods. However, Karmapa Ogyen Trinley refused to go back to India and CTA quickly tried to get to the other Karmapa.

    It shows how quickly CTA can dump their own Karmapa once they did not get cooperation from him. Karmapa Ogyen Trinley to them is just an asset to control the Tibetans. On the other hand, CTA never recognises Karmapa Thaye Dorje from Day 1 and even refused to be connected to him. Now that they needed him to be on their side, they shamelessly went to him. Fortunately, Karmapa Thaye Dorje is wise enough to avoid them.

  19. A lot of time the Tibetan government intervene and create separation within a school or lineage. For Karmapa, Tibetan government recognize Karmapa Ogyen Trinley but he has moved away from the Tibetan government due to not getting support from them and too much control. This is one of the examples when politic mix with spiritual and actually no one gain but only suffering.

  20. Nobody is saying anything about Karmapa issues now because they cannot get any benefits from it. The CTA whose job is supposed to unite Tibetans and maintain harmony in the Tibetan community is not doing its job. Instead of uniting all the Tibetans, the CTA creates more problems to break the Tibetans into different groups so that the people’s power is weakened and no one will be powerful enough to scrunitise the CTA.

    Everything the CTA is doing is always for their benefits, rarely for the Tibetans. They only provide the minimum welfare and benefits to Tibetans, nothing more than that. The CTA is not looking at improving the lives of the Tibetans, they just want the Tibetans to be submissive to them. If people are waiting for the CTA to solve problems, it is impossible!

  21. Where is Karmapa Ogyen Trinley now and what is he doing? The other Karmapa went to Europe with the family and he brought his baby son along. It was almost like bringing the baby Sharmapa to meet all their followers. We can see that all the students hold the baby very dear.

    This is an indication that the baby is not an ordinary baby. It is highly possible he is the reincarnation of Sharmapa. The Dharma work of the ‘white’ Karmapa seems to be growing and he is getting more exposure. But the ‘Indian’ Karmapa is so quiet. Not much news about him.

    Everyone is very curious about the future of the Karma Kagyu lineage. After the two Karmapa have met up, what’s next? The ‘India’ Karmapa was involved in a sex scandal, how is the issue now? So many questions to answer but yet no one is answering.

  22. I just noticed that it has been months since any major news coming out from any of the Karmapas since they last came out with a joint statement. Karmapa Thaye Dorje published a message on his website for India’s 73rd Independence Day, whereas Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has been quiet for months, there’s not even an update on his website since early this year. He just updated his FB with a very short wish for India’s 73rd Independence Day. Perhaps the karmapas have come out with their conclusion as to who will continue to be the Karmapa and who will gradually leave the stage. Seems like they do not want to wait for the CTA to interfere with Karma Kagyu internal affair anymore.

  23. I am really curious, after the 2 Karmapas met up, what was the outcome? What did they achieve? How come there is no announcement. I think many Karmapas are also very concerned. Who is the real Karmapa?

    Perhaps both of them are the reincarnation of the 16th Karmapa. Like what the Dalai Lama mentioned before, it is possible for a high lama to have multiple emanations when they take rebirth. But there can only be one throne holder. Who will be the one?

    I think both Karmapas came back to Samsara with one goal, i.e. to spread Dharma and make sure the lineage is not broken. That is why they met up. If both are power or fame hunger, they would have claimed they are the legitimate one while the other is not. The CTA is not going to help to resolve this issue. If Tibetan community wants to move on, they cannot rely on CTA at all.

    • I think not only you or the Kagyupas, everyone is very curious about the future of the Kagyu lineage. It was shocking news when the two Karmapas announced their meeting. Nobody was expecting that.

      Their meeting also shows how unreliable CTA is because for many years, CTA did not try to help to reconcile the issue within the Karma Kagyu lineage. I think the main reason is because the CTA wants to use the Indian Karmapa to control the Tibetan community after the Dalai Lama is not around anymore.

      The Indian Karmapa knew the dirty trick of the CTA, so he ran away and became the citizen of the Republic of Dominican. He had complained about being used and controlled by the CTA before. This is how CTA is making use of high lama for their personal interest. It is sad but this is what is happening.

  24. The meeting of the 2 Karmapas signifies the beginning of the peace for the Karma Kagyu sect. Since the recognition of 2 Karmapas, the sect has been in chaos and split into 2 sides. CTA purposely created the situation and divide the power by forcefully recognising Karmapa Ogyen Trinley using His Holiness’s fame and influence.

    This has not been the case for hundreds of years where no lama from another sect recognises the head of Karma Kagyu sect. Sharmar Rinpoche has been the lama who is recognising the Karmapa lifetime after lifetime without a problem. Karmapa Thaye Dorje was recognised by Sharmar Rinpoche and CTA rejected that candidate and supported their own candidate instead.

  25. The CTA claimed they are the guardian of Tibetan Buddhism and that Buddhism is their culture. This may be true because Tibetan Buddhism is very popular and common in Tibet. But not many of them are practising Buddhists.

    No practising Buddhists will make another person suffer or hurt another person. But look at the Dorje Shugden ban, it has hurt many people and split many families and friends. Some were forced to leave their community and live in isolation from Tibetans.

    CTA has not brought any good to the Tibetans but made people’s life difficult. They don’t have the intention to bring Tibetans back to Tibet. They are just using the Tibetan plight to make money for themselves.

  26. The CTA wants to recognise their own Dalai Lama. They claim the Dalai Lama recognised by the Chinese government will be a fake one because the Chinese government does not follow the recognition procedure. This is very hypocritical, didn’t the CTA kind of recognised their own Karmapa which is against the recognition procedure?

    By tradition, the reincarnation of Karmapa does not need the endorsement from the Dalai Lama who is the lama of another lineage or the endorsement from the CTA. Why did the CTA meddle in the recognition process of the 17th Karmapa?

    The CTA always has a double standard. They are lenient to themselves but when others do the same, they are not happy. How trustworthy is the CTA if they are being so unfair.

    The way the Dalai Lama or the Panchen Lama is recognised is according to the tradition. The Chinese government has not done anything different since the recognition process was laid out by the Qing emperor. Thus, the Dalai Lama that is going to be recognised by the Chinese government will be the legitimate one.

  27. With the latest news that the 2 Karmapas met up and together composed prayers for the young Sharmapa has shown that both of them are real. They choose to together instead of fighting who is the real one.

    Both of the Karmapas show to their practitioners and the world that the status has no effect for them to benefit others. This is a good example that shows to their practitioners that real Buddhist practice is not to emphasize differences but to work on their common value.

  28. CTA will not do anything because they just want to stir the heat and separate the lineage. Looking at the latest event where both Karmapas together composed a prayer for the young Sharmapa, this good enough to show that the Karmapa does not need the CTA to be involved in any of the spiritual matters. CTA had created enough problems on the spiritual ground.

  29. It’s not important which is real and fake anymore. The latest news on both Karmapas jointly composed the prayer for the young Sharmapa good enough to show us that both are attained and instead of fighting which is the real one, both Karmapas work together benefits people. This is real spiritual through action.

    It’s better for CTA to stop all the schism to split the lineage. It’s enough damages created for the Tibetan by CTA. CTA really look like sabotaging the unity of Tibetan and all the things they did is just weaken the Tibetan and create disharmony.

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.…Instead of turning away people who practise Dorje Shugden, we should be kind to them. Give them logic and wisdom without fear, then in time they give up the ‘wrong’ practice. Actually Shugden practitioners are not doing anything wrong. But hypothetically, if they are, wouldn’t it be more Buddhistic to be accepting? So those who have views against Dorje Shugden should contemplate this. Those practicing Dorje Shugden should forbear with extreme patience, fortitude and keep your commitments. The time will come as predicted that Dorje Shugden’s practice and it’s terrific quick benefits will be embraced by the world and it will be a practice of many beings.

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