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From: DS Admin
Date: Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 4:09 AM
Subject: SOAS The Shugden Controversy Panel Discussion
To: [email protected]
Dear Dr. Hill,
It has come to our attention that SOAS will soon be hosting a panel discussion on the topic of “The Shugden Controversy and the 14th Dalai Lama”. I represent the administrators of the website DorjeShugden.com in thanking you for encouraging dialogue and discussion about this very relevant topic that continues to make headlines in Tibetan Buddhist publications everywhere.
DorjeShugden.com was established in 2007 to educate the general public on issues surrounding the deity Dorje Shugden, based on history, scriptural references and on-going developments, some of which were previously only available in the Tibetan language. We are one of the key online reference points for all things Dorje Shugden, and we believe in promoting logical discussion and debate on this topic.
As an educator and one steeped in the rich cultural history of Tibet, I am sure you will agree that the spirit of education and research is not to take things at face value, but to delve deeper and investigate to the core of any matter, religious or otherwise, especially in an institution as highly respected as the University of London.
It is on this basis that I am writing to you with some suggestions for the upcoming event. Based on the information currently available on the SOAS website, the participating speakers do not appear to represent a balance between those for and against the practice of Dorje Shugden. Apart from Kelsang Rabten, a monk from both the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) and the International Shugden Community, the majority of the other speakers, although they come from diverse backgrounds such as Tibetologist Thierry Dodin and former NKT member Carol McQuire, are squarely against the Dorje Shugden practice.
Thus, in the spirit of impartiality and thorough research which SOAS and the University of London are known for, I would like to bring your attention to a number of other highly respected scholars and subject matter experts who I believe will add great value to your event and aid your audience in developing a deeper appreciation of this issue within the context of Tibetan Studies.
1) Geshe Helmut Gassner (Venerable Jampa Lungtog): ‘Dalai Lama Dorje Shugden’, 1999 Western monk and scholar who served as the Dalai Lama’s translator from 1975 – 1995.
2) The 13th Kundeling Rinpoche Reincarnated lama, scholar and vocal Dorje Shugden proponent. He is also the Abbot and Founder of Atisha Charitable Trust in India.
3) Geshe Chime Tsering Former Secretary of the Dorje Shugden Devotees’ Charitable and Religious Society, resident teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute, and translator for Trijang Rinpoche.
4) Geshe Konchok Gyaltsen Former Vice-President of the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi, India
5) Prof Donald S. Lopez Jr: ‘Two Sides of the Same God’, 1998 A professor of Buddhism at the University of Michigan. His published works include ‘Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism in the West’ and ‘Religions of Tibet in Practice’.
6) Geshe Lobsang Sopa Resident Teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute I hope you will consider adding some of these speakers to the panel discussion and once again, I would like to express my gratitude for your efforts in promoting dialogue and discussion on the Dorje Shugden controversy.
Sincerely,
Kay Beswick
DorjeShugden.com
Please join us on our busy forum (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php) for discussions on Dorje Shugden and General Buddhism
For prayers to Dorje Shugden, please see http://www.dorjeshugden.com/category/prayers/daily-prayers/
Dr Nathan W. Hill’s reply
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 21:20:54 +0100
Subject: Re: SOAS The Shugden Controversy Panel Discussion
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Dear Ms. Beswick,
Thank you for your message. Although having a diversity of views represented at this event is a very important goal, we are also not interested in presenting the matter as ‘pro’ and ‘con’ per se. Consequently, I don’t think there is a need for a strict balance in the number of speakers on both sides. Nonetheless, I also shared the perception that the perspective of Shugden supporters was underrepresented and we have already sent another invitation to a speaker recommended by Kelsang Rabten.
I am very grateful for the list of potential speakers you have provided. Unfortunately, we do not have funds to invite speakers from abroad and now only have a few days before the event is scheduled. Further speakers cannot be incorporated at this point. If in the future your organization would like to sponsor an event at SOAS (in particular to sponsor a lecture by Prof Donald S. Lopez), we would be most grateful for such support.
very best regards,
Nathan
Dr Nathan W. Hill
Lecturer in Tibetan and Linguistics
Department of China & Inner Asia and Department of Linguistics
SOAS, University of London
Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square,
London WC1H 0XG, UK
Tel: +44 (0)20 7898 4220
–
Profile — http://www.soas.ac.uk/staff/staff46254.php
Tibetan Studies at SOAS — http://www.soas.ac.uk/cia/tibetanstudies/
Video: CLEAR VIDEO! The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion at SOAS
Or watch on server | download video (right click & save file)
Video: The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion at SOAS
Or watch on server | download video (right click & save file)
The panel discussion on the practice of Dorje Shugden was held successfully at SOAS as advertised. Above is a video capture of the live stream, sent to DorjeShugden.com by someone appreciative of this monumental event. We would like to thank Dr. Nathan Hill for organizing this panel discussion. It probably took a lot of time, energy and careful consideration to coordinate such an event, the first of its kind ever since the first mention of the ban on Dorje Shugden in 1980. No matter which side you take on the issue, the fact that this discussion was held bodes well for the issue of Dorje Shugden’s practice being resolved in the future. This is sure to be the first of many such serious discussions in academic institutions, providing a needed unbiased platform for dialogue. Please note that the audio on the file we received is not that great, most likely since it was captured from a live stream. Disclaimer: We do not own the copyrights to this video and do not share it here for commercial profit. We are simply sharing this for informational purposes as requested by an avid reader.
English
Indonesia
Tibetan
James C
August 7, 2014
The representation of Scholars and knowledgeable people who practice Dorje Shugden is missing in this welcomed meeting. In order for the discussion to be fair and fruitful, they should have invited more from the Dorje Shugden side.
ronykhan
August 9, 2014
On a positive note, it is very encouraging to see a platform being provided by an independent reknown learning instituition as the University of London, to discuss on such a sensitive issue. Its good to see there is no fear to open up the discussion of this topic. Yes, at this moment the representation for DS at this forum is under represented and the ds.com has brought this fact to the attention of the organiser at the university and it has been acknowledged too. Many more such discussion forums should be held all over the world in order for more people to have the opportunity to learn and to voice out their views. Only in this way, the TRUTH will be revealed !
Eli
August 10, 2014
Will this panel discussion be live? A broadcast online would be a good learning for all parties involved. The Dorje Shudgen issue is not just affecting NKT and to have an ex NKT person well I think the framework for this discussion would have narrowed tremendously.
Dorje Shugden is not an issue about NKT, there is a bigger issue at hand about CTA’s irreconcilable activities of denying rights to its own people, and their stance affects other Dorje Shugden people around the world. The bigger spiritual issue stems from the intervention of the Dalai Lama in the Karmapa and Dorje Shugden issue , the traditional Tibetan buddhist elements are all in danger of losing its identity and authenticity. Just having an ex NKT is oversimplifying it in my opinion.
Freyr Aesiragnorak
August 11, 2014
Finally, this issue is going to be highlighted at one the best universities in London, known for its influence in the world of culture and politics. I’m glad this is happening, hopefully I can go and attend. This is sure to bring a lot more attention to the issue, so that people will be educated on the topic of both sides of the fence, and come to a conclusion about the practice of Dorje Shugden through their own logical and reason.
JC
August 12, 2014
Dorje Shugden practice is not practiced by a small minority as the ex Tibetan Govt (CTA) would mistakenly like to have you believe in order to ‘minimize’ their damage. But it is practiced by the majority and growing. You can see in this that 200,000 Dorje Shugden practitioners have attended one event recently: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/denma-gonsa-rinpoches-enthronement/ This number exceeds the number of Tibetans in exile out of Tibet.
johnathan
August 12, 2014
I am grateful to Nathan Hill for having this dialogue. Unfortunately not enough Dorje Shugden representatives have been invited. For the spirit of open and honest dialogue, it is extremely urgent to have such a dialogue represented by both sides well. Academia should be open and honest.
Many requests and letters have been sent to the private office of the Dalai Lama and various monasteries to have dialogue on this issue. It has been flatly refused. Or simply ignored. The Dalai Lama has mentioned so many times in his public talks in order to genuinely resolve a difficult issue, dialogue is necessary. Yet he refuses his own advice.
This religious undemocratic ban has hurt hundreds of thousands and continues to affect many today and must be resolved to the benefit of both sides.
Nevertheless, it is a good sign Nathan Hill has initiated something although not well represented.
BC
August 12, 2014
Thank you Dr. Nathan Hill. This is a good move in the right direction. We hope you will have more dialogue and invite more Dorje Shugden scholars in the future.
Faith T. Remy
August 12, 2014
This is historical. The first dialogue ever. But judging from the reply of Dr Hill, his reasoning for not inviting more speakers from the Dorje Shugden side doesn’t sound very logical. If you had enough time to organize for anti-Shugden speakers to be present, why not the pro-Shugden speakers also?
Braden
August 12, 2014
I hope Dr Hill is not prejudiced towards the Dalai Lama therefore not inviting more speakers from the Pro-Shugden people for equal representation in this dialogue which is welcomed.
john smith
August 12, 2014
Any public discussion on any critical subject at University level by any experts / scholars should be represented fairly in equal number
by pro / contra / neutrals participients in set up like: 3-3-3; 4-4-4 ; 5-5-5 etc depending on fixed financial budget and on the size of audiences
Venerable Lady
August 12, 2014
Yes I too would much rather have a broader panel of interested parties.I fear an unbalanced public debate will do further harm to Buddhism in general and hope this does not degenerate into an NKT bashing session.The issue affects many practitioners other than NKT,in India,Tibet and elsewhere
I thank DorjeShugden.com for their foresight in suggesting that the balance of speakers doesnot appear contrived for fairness.
Pat
August 12, 2014
To have Gen Rabten is so wonderful, he knows what has to be said about the human rights issue with Dorje Shugdan not a NKT issue, it’s never been about NKT but to protect teachings of Je Tsongkhapa and help all living beings. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wouldn’t send just anyone to cover or debate issues. Just rejoice that there is going to be dialogue about Dorje Shugdan.
Agnes Kohl
August 12, 2014
Personally for me, a panel discussion on this subject matter is long over due. The plight and fatal consequences of this controversy has been going on for too long. It is obvious that the public non-violent protests do not move the CTA to lift the ban. Therefore such a panel discussion of esteemed speakers to represent the issue is indeed with merit. And I strongly believe each speaker will present their views and facts strongly for a very fruitful and purposeful discussion. I hope that many will attend and knowledge be spread and the Ban be lifted. I rejoice!
sonam
August 12, 2014
I believe Dr. Kundeling Rimpoche is also a great person to represent Shugden society in this dialogue, I would be very grateful to have him.
M&M
August 13, 2014
Dr. Hill should be reading this before moderating the discussion:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/how-the-dalai-lama-is-destroying-a-religion-lie-by-lie/
Palden
August 14, 2014
From the organisers:
“The discussion will be web caste on the youtube channel of Londonney. You should be able to find it with Google.”
Palden
August 14, 2014
http://www.livestream.com/Tibetan
Jampa Tashi
August 14, 2014
Nothing against nkt. But, they don’t believe in reincarnations or dorje shugden oracles. so, how are they gonna explain or debate about dorje shugden or shugden history? Tibetan Geshe la who is well educated about shugden to attend is a MUST. Because, Dorje shugden history is full of Reincarnations and oracles.
Just my opinion. that’s all.
Stella H
August 15, 2014
A public discussion on DS controversy and the 14th Dalai Lama.. this should be interesting, with each speakers’ opinions on this matter, the audience can have more understanding over this matter. However, as there’s not much balance between those for and against the practice of Dorje Shugden in the invited speakers, and looking at Dr Hill’s reply, they are not interested in presenting the matter as ‘pro’ and ‘con’ per se and hence does not see a need in the balance of the speakers. Nonetheless, having public discussion on this matter, hopefully will bring positive influence towards the audience and the ban to be lifted eventually.
Thupten Lhundrup 图登伦珠
August 15, 2014
I think this discussion is long overdue, the longer it takes for both parties to come together to discuss and come out with some good outcomes for both parties. As much as CTA denies it, many people are suffering from this ban, we have to compassionately think of means to ensure that this does not go on
Eli
August 16, 2014
It may not be the most most ideal of situation, but still a giant step in letting the whole world there is an unfair group of people being discriminated and allegations against Wisdom buddha Dorje Shugden.
I am watching it RIGHT NOW, thank you dorjeshugden.com for bringing this to our attention.
We will prevail with efforts and determination.
Eli
August 16, 2014
This is so so exciting to have this panel, that Dorje Shugden is now on the lips and tongues of many people. In our day and age, controversies are what stands out amongst most things.
Yes some artists take the ‘taste’ and ‘class out of their performances in exchange for notoriety and controversies. These are the times now….
Matthew Gainsbury
August 16, 2014
Dear Dr. Nathan Hill,
I am pleased to see a open panel on the discussion of the Shugden issue. Personally, there should be no Shugden issue. In the UK everyone has total freedom to practice whatever religion or worship they choose. The Dalai Lama would never get away with what he saying if he was a British politician for sure.
Each of the guests spoke very well except Ms. Carol McQuire. I think she was inappropriate as a guest and her speech had nothing to do with the issue. She focused only on her supposed ‘sufferings’ within the NKT and as a so called NKT survivor. She looked like she was acting out of a personal vendetta. If you were to have Ms. McQuire presen which you did, then you should have had another person who is a survivor of the Shugden persecution in India and then it would have been more balanced. If you go to her facebook page, you can easily see the way she speaks and interacts with the very few people that actually ‘speak’ with her, it is just ramblings that does not make much sense. You sense much hate from her posts where she just engages in random insults of people she has never met nor know anything of. She allows for random insults and entertains them. She entertains different types of unproven and unsupported theories about this issue and the people behind it.
She was really the wrong person to have joined your panel. Otherwise everyone else spoke well whether they were pro or against the dharma Protector Dorje Shugden. It was overall a pleasant discussion.
Thank you for it. May you have more with more varied speakers in the future and perhaps more time.
Dr. Noel
August 16, 2014
Carol McQuire was the worst speaker indeed. She was just going on and on about NKT. We are talking about the Shugden ban and not NKT. She should go for counselling and some psychiatric treatment which she severely needs. You can see from her actions, speech and ‘focus’ that her problems arose many years prior to NKT. She is just looking for a scapegoat for her personal issues. She seems bipolar. Instead of wasting her life being a ‘NKT survivor’ which does not benefit her or anyone, she should get serious medical help and assistance.
Dr. Noel
Peter
August 16, 2014
Nice to see the SOAS talk available in full here. Thank you. Carol McQuire is really off and obsessed with NKT (strange) and Dodin is totally strange in that who is he to say anything about Shugden. Other speaker both pro and anti Shugden are good.
Venerable Lady
August 16, 2014
Sorry do not think ‘Dr Noel’ statement very helpful or compassionate:it may cause more suffering to its intended recepient .In fact it seems quite cruel and hurtful speech.Whatever the merits or demerits of her position and opinions,to accuse someone of mental illness and purporting to have a ‘Dr’prefix to your name is not my own personal idea of a constructive or fair comment.
Kelsang Pagpa
August 16, 2014
I agree with Venerable Lady. I was present at the discussion and felt sorry for Carol. She’s suffering as much as those who are discriminated against by the False Dalai Lama and I think we should be compassionate to everyone, especially those who disagree with us. I pray that everyone affected by this terrible schism on both sides will become free from their suffering.
Gypsy
August 16, 2014
Sometimes controversy doesn’t necessarily mean bad or negative. In this case, this controversy or rather a Ban on Dorje shugden is getting it’s positive effect out of it. Glad to read about this dialogue and thanks to Dr Nathan Hill who initiated this. Though under represented, we, the dorje shugden partitioners would love to join the future dialogues if there’s any.
Khechog
August 16, 2014
I’d like to encourage everyone to refer to the ‘Dalai Lama controversy’ from now on, it frames the situation more accurately.
Icy
August 16, 2014
What I like very much is anthropologist speaker Martin. He gave me hope for his unbiased and untainted views and his clear understanding that Tibetan protectors have always been made into constitutional entities of political warfare (an equivalent of a political scapegoat). His experience with the abbot of Ladakhi monastery tells him who the Tibetans would follow and ditch. He sees this conflict as counter productive and calls for further action.
Generally the discussion was positive. Even Theirry has something positive to say about CTA’s witch hunting on their website isn’t a good thing. Carol needs a doctor. She is there for personal agenda. Of course Geshe Tashi Tsering is as distorted as he said his note was.
May there be many more of such discussions to create more awareness and understanding of DS. DS getting more famous as a result of this controversy!
Icy
August 16, 2014
I appreciate deeply for this panel discussion organised by Dr Nathan Hill of SOAS, University of London. THANK YOU DR NATHAN HILL!
Kelsang Jigme
August 16, 2014
To ‘Venerable’ Lady,
Prefixing your name with Venerable does not make you venerable or wiser than everyone else. I think Dr. Noel’s comment about Carol McQuire was not cruel or hurtful speech and in fact his observation. There is nothing wrong with mentioning someone is ill and needs help. I think you are reading too much into it and you should focus more on the SOAS video and contents.
Perhaps Dr. Noel is a doctor or a PHD holder. Is it too out of the realm a doctor or doctorate holder visits this page?
Don’t be overly critical.
Darla Wilson
August 16, 2014
Jigme: There’s plenty wrong with implying that someone is “ill and needs help” It’s one of the nkt’s favorite ways of dismissing people, or smearing them. I’ve seen it and heard it happen to many people who don’t agree with the nkt. Also, I do agree with one of the comments above that there is a larger issue other than the nkt. That’s the fact that people are still being killed and imprisoned in China, yet the nkt spews the PRC propaganda! Amazing. Yet all the nkt does is cluck their tongues, says “too bad” and goes right on with their vitriol. It was the nkt that started these demonstrations, and continues them today.
Kelsang Jigme
August 16, 2014
Darla Wilson,
I hear what you are saying. Saying someone needs help and is not well and they should seek help is compassion. And NKT has many activities that benefit others. Hence it is the largest Tibetan based Buddhist organization in the world. Many are receiving the benefits. As in any church, synagogue or spiritual organization, you will have people who find their paths to be different and have left. That is fine.
One of the activities in NKT is to ask for religious freedom for monks and practitioners. NKT has the full support and prayers of monasteries like Shar Gaden Monastery who have been prejudiced by the CTA. NKT gets no benefit from the protests. In fact much resources must be doled out by NKT for a cause that millions believe in-RELIGIOUS FREEDOM AND FOR SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS. It is for those Shugden practitioners that are suppressed we speak out for. You may not agree with NKT, but that does not mean NKT is wrong. In the free world everyone has the right to protest and speak up. Respect that.
Robert Helms
August 16, 2014
I think it’s nice that a couple stood up for Carol. That shows some maturity. However, it seems to me there’s pride in that kind of compassion, where we feel sorry for someone for having an apparently inferior view to our own.
It is a common and learnt tendency in the NKT to regard those that oppose the organisation as being deluded, as no sane person could possibly have a negative view on the NKT, right?! I’m being sarcastic, of course.
I don’t necessarily blame individual practitioners for this attitude, as NKT members learn this way of thinking from their peers, and teachers. I know, because I once learnt it myself.
I have no doubt I am also seen as deluded, as an ex-member, and an object of misguided compassion. All beings deserve our compassion, but when we mix pride in like this, then this is not genuine compassion, as we are still putting ourselves and our own views above those to which we feel “compassion” for. Genuine compassion necessarily has a real humility at its base. Furthermore, for a Buddhist, if our compassion is not accompanied by genuine understanding, then we are like a one-winged bird, flying in a circle and getting nowhere.
As the Buddha taught, faith in the words of the teacher or the words of a book is not enough. You must see for yourself. In this case, you must check your facts, not just accept as facts the statements that are handed to you by your teachers. As Geshe Kelsang has often said, you should be your own spiritual guide. As Buddha has said, you should be self-reliant. You should not just be like a mindless Dharma-robot, use your own wisdom, build the muscle of your mind for yourself, check your facts and do your research.
I am reading through the NKT book, ‘A Great Deception’, and I am only at page 9, and already there are important statements that cannot be verified. I tried to check your facts, but even the NKT who are protesting haven’t checked these facts and do not know where to find the documents to which the book references. I know this, as I asked them directly and they told me this very clearly. What are we to make of this?
Why are you NKT so afraid to question your faith? If your faith is true, then questioning it can only bring about a deeper understanding of that truth. The only way your faith can be destroyed through reasonable questioning is if your faith is misguided. If something is true, it stands up to questioning. If something is false, it falls apart under analysis.
So please do not be afraid to contemplate the points I am making here, and the points that others made in the discussion in the video above. After all, what is more important to you, maintaining your unquestioned view or maintaining the truth? As Buddhists, we should seek to know and understand the truth, whatever that truth may turn out to be.
Please, just stop for a moment, and reflect on this.
Phuntso
August 16, 2014
I was at the talk yesterday. Inside the pro Shugden/NKT speakers spoke of reconciliation but as we got out after the event as usual Shugdenpas/NKT handing out leaflets outside the venue which said Dalai Lama, the worst dictator in the modern world. How pathetic and how low they’ve sunk onto. There speakers spoke of reconciliation. But there action speaks otherwise.
Their videos are all distorted and leaflets full of lies and discrepencies.
I am now fully against such discussion and I will strongly protest against giving NKT such platforms.
There is no Ban. There should be!
Linda Ciardiello
August 16, 2014
Saying “she’s mad” is just a defensive mechanism. The NKT are grasping at straws. They HAVE TO believe she’s mad, because if they don’t, then they have to look inwards at the whole basis of their belief system, and most just cannot countenance that. If they believed she is sane and has a valid point then the entire mental construct of their world will crumble. They cannot face this truth. They are utterly deluded. It would be like an earthquake for them to realise that the whole basis of their practice is anti-dharmic. Their practice fosters only their ego selves as special, pure, powerful and right. Carol is standing there with a pin about to burst the balloon of their out-of-control egos, which they hide under a thin veil of holy sanctimonious self-righteousness.
Carol is right – this Shugden practice only fosters powerful ego-mind, attachment and self-grasping. They get off on a sense of bliss and power fron their practice and confuse this with real spiritual progress – thus they get to a certain level and can’t go any further. When you join the NKT you feel like you must have just got inside a Cadillac in the first lane to englightenment. But it turns out that really it’s just a clapped out old banger going downhill fast and the brakes won’t work. Car crash ahead. I feel sorry for them. Really. I do. Especially Pagpa.
Rockstar
August 16, 2014
Like Carol suffered so much under the NKT. There are hundreds who suffered under the NKT. These NKT survivours dedicated their life to NKT, they devoted their money, time and energy for Geshe Kalsang Gyatso and NKT but when they disagreed they were kicked out of NKT making them homeless, destitude. Some even left their families to work for NKT. They were not even given a second chance. As a result of this some were mentally tormented and disturbed. Go and read NKT survivors accounts. I am sure you don’t want to be the next victim.
As a rusult INFORM, a UK anti Cult watchdog has received many complain about NKT and they are keeping an eye on NKT activities.
karma
August 17, 2014
The Tibetan monk was so hypocrite. He said he represents himself only but all he said was exactly as CTA and Dalai Lama.
Also he was so mad toward Kelsang. Is he a monk???? I doubt. he is full of hatred. He looks like a wolf in a sheep cloth.
Venerable Lady
August 17, 2014
Kelsang Jigme.I stand by my observation.Would you appreciate it if someone made the same comment on a public forum about you?I have researched this matter for years and took a very keen interest in all the Panel members contributions, practicised Dorje Shugden for years,including Kangso.Im Venerable because I am old,experienced and I am a woman.However,I am not afraid to use my own intelligence and am wary of partisanship which allows what I see as a hurtful and unskilful comment to pass unnoticed.I do not wish to be associated with such a cruel comment so I speak.Kelsang Rabten spoke at length of his reasoning using skilful speech.I wish we would follow that example in all our discussions.
Michael Maynard
August 17, 2014
First off can we all stop using Carol and her perceived state of health as some sort of shuttlecock in this discussion? It’s not relevant to this issue and just not nice. This debate is already full of ad hominem arguments it does not need any more.
As a follower of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and partitioner of Buddha Dorje Shugden I was asked to demonstrate against the Dalai Lama, before I did so I did some research and came to the conclusion that it was right for me to do so – I haven’t been able to get to any demonstrations yet but will more than happily attend when I can. Of course there are arguments against me doing this or that say I don’t need to – I follow those as well. Personally, to adopt a phrase of a friend, I would love to be proved wrong by the supporters of the Dalai Lama’s position. I would loved to be proved alarmist and that the tibetan refugee community is a shangri-la of happy practitioners of Buddhadharma but ad hominem attacks won’t do that for me. And as for suggestions that I am a tool of the Chinese government that isn’t going to work either because I know I am not.
Michael Maynard
August 17, 2014
Is there any way to edit previous comments? I just noticed my spell-checker substituted “partitioner” for “practitioner” and would like to change it?
Kelsang Palmo
August 17, 2014
In regards to the “this is all rubbish” comment made by Dr Martin Mills, I think it was unfortunate that he regarded the ISC protests to be equally as problematic as the CTA’s posting of protesters names on its website. It is a democratic right to protest whereas posting protesters’ names is an act of intimidation. There is quite a difference. Furthermore, if a minority group is suffering from oppression and there is no dialogue, what other option does a group have to seek redress but through this method? As Dr Nathan Hill said in closing, “the suffering some propitiants of Dorje Shugden have experienced is self-evident.” If people do not speak up discrimination simply continues. Prayer and action go together.
Kelsang Jigme
August 17, 2014
Venerable Lady,
If you find yourself worthy of veneration, then please continue to venerate yourself. So Noel has every right to call himself as Dr. as most likely he studied, got his degree and earned his title. So he is Dr. Noel.
——
Michael Maynard,
I agree with you. I will stop talking about Carol. Her own behavior will show who she is on it’s own in due time.
I am glad you will be at the protest. I will most likely see you there one of these days in the upcoming ones soon. I get nothing from the protests. I am just so sick and tired of the lack of religious freedom my Tibetan compatriots suffer, I had to speak up. I’ve never been to China and have no Chinese connections so the CTA can say as they like. The hysterical part is the CTA does not accuse the Western Shugden people of Chinese connection, but just their own Tibetan Shugden practitioners. I guess they need the West support to take care of their expenditure and salaries. So they cannot afford to offend. CTA cannot generate any salaries on their own and rely on Western support for their daily living. They cannot provide jobs and opportunities to their own Tibetan hence thousands of Tibetans are immigrating out of India to the West. Every Tibetan knows the unspoken truth, once Dalai Lama passes away as he is 79, the CTA will crumble into dust. The Dalai Lama’s views will disappear with his passing also. Don’t get me wrong, I am not looking forward to his passing, but it’s inevitable and all his views of Shugden will dissipate. It is better Dalai Lama release the ban now as it is creating untold suffering rather than after his death when it will dissipate on it’s own. At least it will be better for his reputation.
The protests will become stronger and will continue until Dalai Lama releases the illegal and immoral ban against a religious tradition of Shugden. No leader or well known personality should ever criticize or discourage anyone from any religious tradition. This is not the dark ages. No one has the right to criticize anyone’s faith. Not the pope, not the Dalai Lama. Absolutely no one.
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Karma,
The Tibetan monk’s name is Tashi Tsering from Jamyang Centre in London. Yes, of course he has to take the side of CTA or he will be out of a job. He has given up ‘everything’ for his position in Jamyang Centre so he has to protect his livelihood. There has been very bad talk of his behavior in Sera Jey Monastery before he came to UK. Behavior that I will not bring up here. As a Gelug monk, he criticizes Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche shows his deep delusions. Pabongka Rinpoche is a primary Gelug lineage lama and if you criticize him, then all lineages that abundantly come from his are negated their blessings. The lineage Dalai Lama comes from stems from Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche. He did not represent himself, he only said that to disarm everyone. He repeated exactly what the CTA has been brainwashing.
Kelsang Jigme
August 17, 2014
Kelsang Palmo,
There is complete logic in what you said. Peaceful protests are the right of every citizen in any democracy. But posting of protestors by the CTA on their website is purposely inciting trouble against them. That is should be illegal and unethical.
But why do you think CTA do not post any non-Tibetan protestors photos and only Tibetans on their official website?
M&M
August 17, 2014
Just wanted to say that Guru Devotion is such a basic requirement in the Vajrayana schools yet it is not the easiest to understand. I urge those old and new to Vajrayana to study Guru Devotion again and again. http://lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=373
snowwhite
August 17, 2014
Fake Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is dead. May he never be born again as a human. May he burn in hell in the hot boiling water.
Dr R
August 17, 2014
Was Carol McQuire a suitable panel speaker for the ‘The Shugden Controversy’ discussion held at SOAS (The World’s leading institution for the study of Asia, Africa and the Middle East), when she publishes things like this on her Facebook page?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154550062305145&set=pb.818185144.-2207520000.1408289385.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xap1%2Ft1.0-9%2F10526182_10154550062305145_6194412574677044324_n.jpg&size=480%2C720
Linda Ciardiello
August 17, 2014
Dr R – in your post we see a perfect demonstration of the usual ISC/NKT tactic of taking something completely out of context to make a non-existent point. Carol posted that image in a discussion about how images and statements are taken and manipulated by unethical and unscrupulous people to give a semblance of supposed “evidence” for their totally false claims. This is standard practice by the Shugden/NKT propagandist manipulators.
The picture you have posted was next to the one below, which says “Just because you saw it on the internet doesn’t mean it’s true”. Dr R, you have posted a shockingly deceptive comment. Shame on you.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154550049885145&set=pcb.572908446153972&type=1&theater
Dr R
August 17, 2014
Nice try Linda, but not very believable, as she didn’t have to display “A BIG Fuck you who following the shugden” to prove such a point.