UPDATE: The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion

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From: DS Admin
Date: Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 4:09 AM
Subject: SOAS The Shugden Controversy Panel Discussion
To: [email protected]

Dear Dr. Hill,

It has come to our attention that SOAS will soon be hosting a panel discussion on the topic of “The Shugden Controversy and the 14th Dalai Lama”. I represent the administrators of the website DorjeShugden.com in thanking you for encouraging dialogue and discussion about this very relevant topic that continues to make headlines in Tibetan Buddhist publications everywhere.

DorjeShugden.com was established in 2007 to educate the general public on issues surrounding the deity Dorje Shugden, based on history, scriptural references and on-going developments, some of which were previously only available in the Tibetan language. We are one of the key online reference points for all things Dorje Shugden, and we believe in promoting logical discussion and debate on this topic.

As an educator and one steeped in the rich cultural history of Tibet, I am sure you will agree that the spirit of education and research is not to take things at face value, but to delve deeper and investigate to the core of any matter, religious or otherwise, especially in an institution as highly respected as the University of London.

It is on this basis that I am writing to you with some suggestions for the upcoming event. Based on the information currently available on the SOAS website, the participating speakers do not appear to represent a balance between those for and against the practice of Dorje Shugden. Apart from Kelsang Rabten, a monk from both the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) and the International Shugden Community, the majority of the other speakers, although they come from diverse backgrounds such as Tibetologist Thierry Dodin and former NKT member Carol McQuire, are squarely against the Dorje Shugden practice.

Thus, in the spirit of impartiality and thorough research which SOAS and the University of London are known for, I would like to bring your attention to a number of other highly respected scholars and subject matter experts who I believe will add great value to your event and aid your audience in developing a deeper appreciation of this issue within the context of Tibetan Studies.

1) Geshe Helmut Gassner (Venerable Jampa Lungtog): ‘Dalai Lama Dorje Shugden’, 1999 Western monk and scholar who served as the Dalai Lama’s translator from 1975 – 1995.

2) The 13th Kundeling Rinpoche Reincarnated lama, scholar and vocal Dorje Shugden proponent. He is also the Abbot and Founder of Atisha Charitable Trust in India.

3) Geshe Chime Tsering Former Secretary of the Dorje Shugden Devotees’ Charitable and Religious Society, resident teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute, and translator for Trijang Rinpoche.

4) Geshe Konchok Gyaltsen Former Vice-President of the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi, India

5) Prof Donald S. Lopez Jr: ‘Two Sides of the Same God’, 1998 A professor of Buddhism at the University of Michigan. His published works include ‘Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism in the West’ and ‘Religions of Tibet in Practice’.

6) Geshe Lobsang Sopa Resident Teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute I hope you will consider adding some of these speakers to the panel discussion and once again, I would like to express my gratitude for your efforts in promoting dialogue and discussion on the Dorje Shugden controversy.

Kay Beswick

Please join us on our busy forum (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php) for discussions on Dorje Shugden and General Buddhism

For prayers to Dorje Shugden, please see http://www.dorjeshugden.com/category/prayers/daily-prayers/


Dr Nathan W. Hill’s reply

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 21:20:54 +0100
Subject: Re: SOAS The Shugden Controversy Panel Discussion
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

Dear Ms. Beswick,

Thank you for your message. Although having a diversity of views represented at this event is a very important goal, we are also not interested in presenting the matter as ‘pro’ and ‘con’ per se. Consequently, I don’t think there is a need for a strict balance in the number of speakers on both sides. Nonetheless, I also shared the perception that the perspective of Shugden supporters was underrepresented and we have already sent another invitation to a speaker recommended by Kelsang Rabten.

I am very grateful for the list of potential speakers you have provided. Unfortunately, we do not have funds to invite speakers from abroad and now only have a few days before the event is scheduled. Further speakers cannot be incorporated at this point. If in the future your organization would like to sponsor an event at SOAS (in particular to sponsor a lecture by Prof Donald S. Lopez), we would be most grateful for such support.

very best regards,

Dr Nathan W. Hill
Lecturer in Tibetan and Linguistics
Department of China & Inner Asia and Department of Linguistics
SOAS, University of London
Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square,
London WC1H 0XG, UK
Tel: +44 (0)20 7898 4220

Profile — http://www.soas.ac.uk/staff/staff46254.php
Tibetan Studies at SOAS — http://www.soas.ac.uk/cia/tibetanstudies/


Video: CLEAR VIDEO! The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion at SOAS

Or watch on server | download video (right click & save file)

Video: The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion at SOAS

Or watch on server | download video (right click & save file)

The panel discussion on the practice of Dorje Shugden was held successfully at SOAS as advertised. Above is a video capture of the live stream, sent to DorjeShugden.com by someone appreciative of this monumental event. We would like to thank Dr. Nathan Hill for organizing this panel discussion. It probably took a lot of time, energy and careful consideration to coordinate such an event, the first of its kind ever since the first mention of the ban on Dorje Shugden in 1980. No matter which side you take on the issue, the fact that this discussion was held bodes well for the issue of Dorje Shugden’s practice being resolved in the future. This is sure to be the first of many such serious discussions in academic institutions, providing a needed unbiased platform for dialogue. Please note that the audio on the file we received is not that great, most likely since it was captured from a live stream. Disclaimer: We do not own the copyrights to this video and do not share it here for commercial profit. We are simply sharing this for informational purposes as requested by an avid reader.

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173 total comments on this postSubmit yours
  1. Max, regarding your request to “anonymous” for a refutation of “Music Delighting…” I have copied a quote from it below and some analysis from the real “Michael Brown” as opposed to the fake one that has been posting on this thread earlier. You will see that Shugden has a vengeful nature, visiting wrathful punishments on anyone who dares mix teachings from the Gelug school with any other Buddhist teachings, such as Nyingma. This is Incontravertible PROOF that Shugden veneration and propitiation is a deeply divisive, harmful, sectarian practice. So all you people who keep saying there is “no proof” that Shugden practice is harmful are either ignorant of the facts, or liars.

    “Trijang Rinpoche’s main thesis is dogyal has the appearance of a mundane protector or worldly spirit but must be an enlightened emanation because it is reincarnated or of the same mental continuum as several realised lamas starting with Mahasiddha Virupa, Sakya Pandita and Buton Rinpoche. Sakyapas would scoff and laugh at this absurd claim. Sapan wasn’t reborn as anyone. He was fully enlightened. The basis of the claim that dogyal was any of the other lamas listed, from Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen to Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen is all apocryphal nonsense that was made up way after the events described. It is important to remember that the very idea that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen became dogyal was a view first put about by Dragpa Gyaltsen’s enemies as a way of insulting the legacy of the tulku. Bizarre the way this view has been adopted by his ‘supporters’.”

    Quote from Trijang’s “Music Delighting…” book. Page 121
    “Whether they were lords of Tibet, great lamas who held the political power of the throne, lamas and tulkus, great or small, with illustrious lines of incarnation, holy beings rich in scriptural and realized qualities, high lords of vast lands and works, those haughty with pride of family lineage, dominion and wealth, any who hypocritically claimed to be followers of Protector Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings while remaining unsatisfied with Je Lama’s precious Teachings of Sutra and Tantra which, in terms of view, meditation, and action, need not crave more from any other tradition, and, instead, mixed, polluted, or confused them with other modes of view and practice, whether lay or ordained, regardless of status, there have been many who have met with unpleasant wrathful punishments, such as being punished by authorities, litigation and legal disputes, untimely death, and so forth. Such swift, decisive signs appear to direct perception. Here praise is offered to that manifestation as a great wrathful protector who raises the Yellow Hat Teachings to the heights of the heavens.”

  2. Grateful Kadampa, regarding your claim that the Dalai Lama “makes huge amounts of money through using Buddhist teachings”: I suggest you investigate what the Dalai Lama does with the money made at his teachings. The accounts are published for public information, unlike the New Kadampa Tradition who hide everything about their workings of the inner power machine behind of veil of secrecy.

    “His Holiness takes no money for teachings or talks. Teachings in India are free and Tibetan tea and bread are generously served to attendees. Proceeds for events overseas are used to cover the expenses of his visit. Any excess is used by the host sponsors either for charitable purposes or to further their own mission. If you want to donate to His Holiness, you will be redirected by his website to the Dalai Lama Trust: http://www.dalailamatrust.org This is a non-profit charity, supporting many causes. In 2013, the trust contributed $50,000 to the Red Cross to support typhoon relief efforts in the Phillipines and $1,250,000 to the Emory-Tibet Science Partnership. In 2012, the trust contributed $1,510,000 to support science partnership projects in the West, including $1,250,000 to the Mind and Life Institute in Hadley, Mass. In that year, $10,000 went to the Tibet Fund in New York and $84,350 went to the Tibetan Village project in Westminster, Colorado.”

    The writer of the article above investigated the subject thoroughly. For the full article read “The White Shadow of the Dalai Lama” on internet blog “Tibetan Buddhism Struggling with DiffiCult Issues”

    Unlke the vast charitable giving to this wide variety of causes, Kelsang Gyatso and the NKT channel all their profits back into their own expansion, buying mansions, hotels and building temples for the glorification of Kelsang Gyatso’s enormous narcissistic ego.

    As for this claim that the Dalai Lama is causing suffering to “millions” of Shugden practitioners – it is clearly ludicrous. There are not even “millions” of Tibetans living in exile. Check Wikipedia’s page on the Tibetan diaspora and you will see that at most there are 150,000 Tibetans in exile IN TOTAL. 150,000. Yet you claim there are “millions” of Shugden supporters “suffering”. What absolute nonsense. Really there is only one word for that statement: LIE. Really, you people have such a nerve to tell the Dalai Lama to “Stop Lying” when you can barely open your mouths without uttering hateful, misleading lies. Such disgusting hypocrisy.

  3. Diane Cadman, in answer to your two questions:

    1) Yes, I would stand outside an NKT centre and give out leaflets warning people about the cult-like way NKT operates, and that they engage in worship of an entity considered to be a harmful, dangerous, demonic spirit by most Tibetan Buddhists. I’d show them a picture of this entity just in case they didn’t believe me. I’d also show them pictures of an ugly mob of nuns and monks with facial expressions of pure anger and hatred, with their fists punching the air. The person might ask “are they demonstrating against the Chinese occupation of Tibet?” I’d then explain, that “No, they never do that, they couldn’t care less about that and are actually demonstrating AGAINST the Dalai Lama, much to the delight of those same Chinese occupiers”.

    Some ex-NKT people already did something like this outside Bodhisattva Centre in Brighton and received a lot of gratitude from people who had no idea what lies behind your schmaltzy smiling faces and glib platitudes.

    2) You can hardly compare Shugden’s significance to UK or US culture with his significance to Tibetan culture. In the UK and US whether someone is naive enough or not to become a “Dorje Shugden Practitioner” would be irrelevant to the British or American government. That you even attempt to draw such a comparison, just shows how naive and ill-informed you really are about the significance of Shugden veneration to the issue of the Tibetan struggle against their Chinese oppressors, and to the issue of Shugden practice as an historically divisive, highly sectarian practice in Tibetan Buddhism.

    The main role of Shugden is in exalting Gelug teachings and protecting/promoting Gelug political hegemony above all other Tibetan Buddhist schools. Tibetan Buddhist systems other than “pure” Gelug are considered to be “mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading” (Pabongka). Furthermore, Trijang himself even makes this veiled threat to anyone who dares follow teachings other than Gelug: Those who “mixed, polluted, or confused (Gelug teachings) with other modes of view and practice…have met with unpleasant wrathful punishments, such as being punished by authorities, litigation and legal disputes, untimely death, and so forth.” Hey, maybe this is where Kelsang Gyatso gets his inspiration for his numerous threats of legal action against his critics! Not something the Dalai Lama has ever done, mind.

    Furthermore, it seems to me to be beyond a coincidence that when Shugden practice was at its height, after the death of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama when Pabongkapa had free rein to promote Shugden far and wide (breaking his promise to the Thirteenth Dalai Lama to abandon the practice) – this was a time that co-incided with the demise of Tibet into the hands of China. The Thirteenth Dalai Lama died in 1933. Pabongkhapa’s successful drive to promote Shugden in Gelug Tibetan Buddhism lasted way after his death in 1941, until the Fourteenth Dalai Lama began to make a stand against it properly in the 1990s.

    This time of Shugden’s ascendancy matches the darkest days for the Tibetan peoples, which continues to this day, latterly not least because now Shugden practice has been taken up in the West and is popular in China. With this information, coupled with the fact that Shugden lamas hobnob happily with Chinese government officials and Shugden practice is actively supported by the Chinese in Tibet and China, it really does not take a lot of brains to work out that Shugden practice works towards the signed, sealed delivery of Tibet into China’s hands forever.

    So, you see, Diane Cadman, if you bothered to analyse this controversy with any depth of thought, there is far more to it than the NKT/ISC would have the world believe. I think considering all these facts it is really none of your business to condemn the Dalai Lama for taking the action he has against Shugden practice, in the interests of Tibetan unity and freedom.

    Similar things do go in the UK. There was controversy here recently when a School Trust was being infiltrated by a group of fundamentalist muslims and action had to be taken by the authorities to wrest control of the School Trust from the fundamentalists. The Dalai Lama’s view of Shugden is perhaps somewhat similar: Shugden is an embodiment of sectarian fundamentalism that works against Tibetan freedom. So, like the UK government, it is the Dalai Lama’s responsibility to ensure that these sort of people are not in positions of social or governmental power. This is not “discrimination” – it is protection.

    I will post this analysis on Talk about Shugden Facebook page too because, no doubt for you, it will, at best, be “in one ear, out the other”, (if you bother to read it all). You will just dismiss it quickly and continue with your exaggerated, ill-informed, nonsensical rubbish about “discrimination”, “terrible suffering” of “millions” of Shugden practitioners and announcing that there is “no proof” that Shugden practice is harmful.

  4. Hi Linda,

    One question to you.

    I know of someone in the US who applied to attend a college course on Buddhism at her local University. The admissions officer asked if she was a Shugden practitioner. Based on her answering ‘Yes’ he refused to allow her to take the course.

    I assume you and your friends would applaud this type of thing?

    Shugden practitioners worldwide do indeed count in the ‘millions’ — they are all affected by this ban. This is not an issue which only affects Tibetans.

  5. Diane Cadman

    Did you bother to actually read any of the reply I gave you? You might at least have the courtesy to acknowledge it. But, as predicted, you didn’t bother, and if you did – it was “in one ear and out the other”.

    You clearly don’t read what I write, apart from a cursory glance at it. Otherwise you could not possibly make the preposterous comparison between me (and other like-minded folk) and evangelical Baptist Christians. Really, your attempts at debate are very childish and immature. You remind me of Sarah Palin in your appearance, in your sad lack of intellectual ability and in your total dearth of education on subjects you consider yourself qualified to pass judgements upon. You are a fanatic. One look at your book “Likes” on Facebook says it all: all we find are books by Kelsang Gyatso. It is you and your evangelical NKT/Shugden mob who are the Buddhist answer to the Westboro Baptists that you sneer at. Not me, I’m nobody’s acolyte and not a member of any church or cult, unlike you.

    Just how precisely do you know your friend was not admitted, point-blank, just because she is a Shugden practitioner? Show me the proof please. Otherwise we will have to assume this is just another baseless claim and false allegation – like most of what you people vomit up all over the internet, while you spew your vile hatred of the Dalai Lama to his face, to the press and on the internet, for and to the whole world to deride you. Not a good look, sorry to say. :-)

    I hardly think the said educational establishment in the US would have told your friend that they are rejecting her because she is a Shugden practioner. Usually rejections from institutions/companies do not include any detailed explanation for why the person is rejected. If the Shugden issue was anything to do with her rejection it was probably because, like you and all NKT people, you regard Kelsang Gyatso to be the sole “upholder” of the “pure” lineage of Je Tsongkapa and aren’t interested in any other Buddhist teachings. After all, Kelsang Gyatso advises you all, on pain of being kicked out of his centres, not to read or study any other books on Buddhism than his own, nor to take teachings from any other teacher than him – lest you become “confused”, does he not?

    Now, please address the manifold points I have made to you in previous post(s). You don’t/won’t because you cannot. – all you can manage is to ignore the points with sweeping statements and unsubstantiated claims which have no basis in fact.

    Diane, please, go and get some psychiatric help. You are clearly mentally unwell and need help to recover from your Transpersonal Identity Disorder. I feel so sorry for you.
    Please read this article – it might help you understand what has happened to you.

    Take care dear friend, with love and compassion


  6. dear linda:
    this is the official program of His Holiness teachings in Italy last june.
    at the end , it is clearly written: “Dorje Shugden practitioners are requested not to attend”

  7. Hi ds,

    I remember also seeing the registration form [for this specific DL event] which also had a ‘check box’ stating you did not practice Dorje Shugden.

    I’m guessing the DL is trying to bring his discrimination to the West, as well?

  8. DS …..So? And your point is? He “requested” they do not attend. He did not say they are “banned” from attending. He considers Shugden practice harmful. He has requested his followers to desist from it. If they don’t want to take his advice he apparently considers it karmically harmful to himself and to the Shugdenpas for them to fake a student/teacher relationship with him. If they wilfully refuse to take his advice, why do they want to go to his teachings anyway? He is quite within his right to make this REQUEST – not an order, and definitely NOT A BAN.

    Kelsang Gyatso, on the other hand, literally does ban people from all his NKT centres when they annoy him. Even people who were once his hardest working, most loyal acolytes, like Nick Gillespie….

    “….the Members of the weekly meeting of the Education Council made the decision and are asking the Admin Directors of all the NKT Dharma Centres including in particular KMC New York City to cease the connection between the Centre and yourself Nick Gillespie. This ban will be effective on the 29th April 2012.”

    That little dig about Nick’s connection to KMC New York is particularly spiteful when you consider that the resident teacher of KMC New York is Morten Clausen, shown in the picture with Nick. They were the best of friends for 30 years and so, reading between the lines, Kelsang Gyatso is expressly forbidding Morten from speaking to Nick Gillespie. I mean, come on – get real, how mean, nasty and controlling is that?


    I have seen myself Kelsang Gyatso’s henchmen dragging someone out of the Summer Festival, just because they turned up after being “banned”. I knew this person and was pleased to see them when they arrived. A little while later there was a bit of a scuffle and I was shocked to hear this poor chap and been pounced on by NKT security and frog-marched off the premises. Never to be seen again. I found it hard to believe or understand, but at the time I chose to sweep it under my mental carpet, as it were, because I was still “in love” with the NKT back then.

    The disillusionment took a while to sink in, but after a while you can’t keep ignoring all the clues, all the cracks in the apparently stainless exterior of this organisation, which reveal it to be really rather nasty, fake, hypocritical, careless of its members welfare and run by a power-crazed bully. If ever there was a wolf in sheep’s clothing, it is Kelsang Gyatso – not the Dalai Lama. NKT accuse the Dalai Lama of this, according to the old propagandist trick of accusing your enemy of the very thing that you are guilty of yourself.

  9. DS, There is another point worth considering re this request that Dolgyal Shugden practitioners do not attend HHDL’s teachings: I bet there was no such request made before 1996 when the NKT began its hate campaign against the Dalai Lama. The NKT/ISC/WSS “protests” have ruined it for the non-fanatical Shugden practitioners, for sure. This sort of outcome was precisely the reason that the Shugden lamas asked Kelsang Gyatso not to make such a hateful issue about it. In the SOAS talk Dr Martin Mills said that the monastery he lived in for a year or so, expressly asked that westerners not make a fuss about Dolgyal because it would be better for practioners like them if they did not – they knew it would cause them trouble and clearly they were right. But Kelsang Gyatso and his followers chose to selfishly carry on with their hate campaign anyway. This, and the hostility towards the Shugdenpas in India, is the result of their own selfishness.

  10. Diane Cadman, Ironic that the second dictionary definition of “discrimination” is thus:

    recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.
    “discrimination between right and wrong”
    synonyms: differentiation, distinction, telling the difference
    “the discrimination between right and wrong”

    To practice of discrimination can therefore also mean the practice of wisdom, as in to discriminate between a genuine spiritual practice and blind faith in a deity.

    Consider also the Latin origins of the word religion as in to “rejoin” or “reconnect” with a higher spiritual reality. The word “yoga” has a similar meaning. This is one reason why the Dalai Lama is correct to say that as a form of mundane spirit worship, Shugden practice is not religion.


  11. Dear Linda and Anonymous,

    As I said before, I am not a Shugden practitioner or anything to do with NKT.
    But please believe me, I experienced Dalai Lama’s ban in India. And Tibetans who follow Shugden were ostracized, beaten, segregated…etc.
    I am worried about Tibetans in India. Of course, Dalai Lama and CTA’s ban will seriously effect on Tibetans worldwide as well.
    For westerners, It won’t. But again, NKT and Western Shugden practitioners are fighting for Tibetans who practice Shugden.

    Please try to understand here.

  12. “….the Members of the weekly meeting of the Education Council made the decision and are asking the Admin Directors of all the NKT Dharma Centres including in particular KMC New York City to cease the connection between the Centre and yourself Nick Gillespie. This ban will be effective on the 29th April 2012.”


    Wow – talk about ostracisation! Nick Gillespie was in the NKT from the very early days. Lucy James, another NKT bigwig, is/was? Nick Gillespie’s partner for 30 years and I should imagine practically all Nick’s friends were NKT. His whole life for 25+ years was NKT. How cruel is this ban on Nick – to force everyone who once knew and loved him to turn away from him and completely shun him on the orders of their “kind Spiritual Guide”. Gosh – that might be enough to drive someone to suicide!

    How kind of Kelsang Gyatso, how compassionate of him to protect his flock like this from the evil Nick Gillespie, whose only crime apparently was to write a book about how meditation in daily life can help you. KG sacked him first as resident teacher in 2009, reason unknown, and then not only banned any NKT centre from any connection with him, he also threatened to sue Nick for writing this book because he dared mention his NKT credentials in it! Wow – what a nasty bit of bullying that is. Incredible.

    Such is the “religious freedom” one finds in the NKT. Imagine the terror and horror that would be unleashed if Kelsang Gyatso got his hands on any real power! He’d definetely have someone like me thrown in jail for daring to criticise him. His followers are in total denial about KGs megalomaniac, dictator- style of rule and control. This is why they project the reality of Kelsang Gyatso’s ruthlessness and repression of religious freedom on the Dalai Lama instead. It’s kind of a misplaced hostility because they can’t bear to face the truth that they’ve been utterly taken in, duped and brain-washed by a cult. It took me quite a long time, long after I’d escaped the NKT, to face the truth that this is what had happened to me. It was all really rather embarrassing with unpleasant repercussions. But hey, I got over it! And so could you! :-)

  13. Dear Anonymouse,
    I am talking about Tibetan victims in India, not NKT or anything else.
    Dalai Lama and CTA’s ban lead to suffering of many many Tibetans in India.
    If you don’t believe me, please check the Video on Youtube.

  14. Anonymous, re your claims about beatings etc – why is there no evidence at all of police reports of these alleged events? If such things were really happening where is the real evidence? ISC/NKT/DS propaganda videos do not amount to evidence, btw. They amount to mere claims and “vague averments” and are nothing but propaganda. If such attacks had really occurred why were there no police reports or crime references actually put forward as “evidence” for these claims in the Delhi High Court Case the Shugdenpas brought? Hmmmmmm? Instead the court said “no specific instances” of such attacks were shown and the claims being made were “mere averments”.

    So no, I don’t believe you, sorry. If you do have any evidence I suggest you take it to the police or to the CTA so that action can be taken against the perpetrators. Furthermore, if there do happen to be some over-zealous Dalai Lama supporters doing anything like this, you can hardly blame the Dalai Lama for that personally. Especially as no-one has actually given him any evidence of any such violence that you claim. Let me ask you, would you blame the Pope for the actions of the IRA?

    I repeat, take your evidence, if you have any – which I strongly doubt, to the appropriate authorities. Until you can prove any of your claims, then your suggestion that the Dalai Lama is responsible for any such violence is actually libellous. You Shugden people are always going on about how there is “no proof” that Lobsang Gyatso and his two assistants were murdered by Shugdenpas and thus it is unfair to claim this. Yet there was indeed enough evidence for Interpol to have a Wanted status on them as they hide out in China. I have also seen documented police evidence of a settlement leader and his wife being severely beaten by Shugdenpas.

    Yet you Shugden people with all your claims of violent attacks, beatings and even murders can produce not a single shred of police evidence, crime reports, wanted notices about any such attacks. Still you claim these things over and over again, while on the other hand you complain again and again that the suspected Shugdenpa murderers of Lobsang Gyatso must be deemed “innocent until proven guilty” . Likewise you people must treat the Dalai Lama as innocent of these crimes you claim, until proven guilty. You cannot have one rule for yourselves and expect another to be applied to the Dalai Lama, especially as you can provide no evidence whatsoever of your claims against him! Such horrible double standards is what we come to expect all the time from you people.

    I suggest you provide police proof of your claims or otherwise stop with your libellous claims and statements.

  15. “Check the videos on Youtube” – I have seen many of these and they are full of falsities and fabrications. They are NOT evidence. They are CLAIMS and PROPAGANDA. I saw one where someone was claiming they were under attack by a mob of Dalai Lama
    supporters. What a bad joke that was. No sign or sound of anyone attacking them. Just a traffic jam. This sort of thing is then served up as “evidence”. How ridiculous!

  16. Dear Anonymous Tashi Delek
    Now I realize, you are Tibetan, working for CTA and Dalai Lama.
    The way you said certain words, I can immediately tell you are Tibetan.
    You are denial to all the evidences which also showed that you are ONE OF THEM.
    Your suggesting of taking the evidences to CTA is a absurd. Don’t you think CTA will destroy all the evidences?????? CTA and Dalai Lama are the one committing the crime and you are asking those Shugden victims to take evidence to them???? This showed YOU ARE ONE OF THEM.

    BTW, most of the videos/evidence are made by FRANCE and AMERICAN and SWISS medias, not by Shugden people, they are just collecting the evidences.


    We lost Tibet because of THEOCRACY, now, Dalai Lama is trying to gain his God King Power to restore THEOCRACY. Please don’t tell me that we have “a Prime minister, Lobsang Sangay.” He is a joke. He is just a Puppet of Dalai Lama. He wasted all the money by attending Harvard University. What he learned in HARVARD??? THEOCRACY, right? Anyway, what could we expect from An EXCHANGE STUDENT, guarantee seat to Harvard. I think LOBSANG SANGAY attended Harvard University to learn ESL only. His English still cannot compete with Tibetan High school students.

    Only I can hope now is that Tibetan students who grow up in America or Swiss will one day lead the Tibet instead of Tibetans in Dharamsala who are totally religious nuts.


  17. Anonymous “Not a Shugden worshipper ;-) ”, Ha ha ha – me, a Tibetan? Well that says a lot about your powers of perception and analysis if you can manage to make that ludicrously incorrect deduction from my writing. That is funny.

    If you don’t want to take those mountains of supposed “evidence” to the Dalai Lama himself or the CTA, why not the Indian police, hmmm? The police was my first suggestion to you. Or are you going to come up with some other bovine excrement excuse for why that’s no use to you either? Ha ha ha. No use to you for the only reason that every single one of your claims has no real substance as “human rights abuses” or “persecution”and the farce of this “protest” movement is a great big storm in a teacup, a huge mountain created out of a tiny molehill by Kelsang Gyatso and his KelsangBots, because of his viciously spiteful personal vendetta against the Dalai Lama.

    The documentaries you mention did not include reference to the BBC documentary “An Unholy Row” I noticed, which certainly did not give much credence to the Shugden camps fallacious arguments. Some of the broadcasters you mentioned were forced to make apologies for their totally biased broadcasts, which they admitted had not been thoroughly investigated. We all know how some low-level journalists like nothing better than sensational scandal-mongering, based on mere rumour and hearsay.

    In one of these programmes which you cite as proof of “persecution” about the best they could manage was some monk going into a shop and proudly announcing to the owner he was a Shugden worshipper. If Shugdenpas are really “living in fear”, as you claim, why the heck do they go round announcing proudly to all and sundry that they are Shugdenpas????? That makes no sense at all and shows what a load of fallacious codswallop all your claims really are. The shopkeeper was running a shop which sold religious items and so refused to serve him, as his her right, if she finds the violently sectarian nature of Shugden practice to be morally repugnant to her. Who knows, maybe the man and his wife from the Tibetan settlement in the police photos who had been brutally beaten by Shugdenpas, were relations of hers? Maybe Lobsang Gyatso, who was murdered by Shugdenpas according to the Indian Police, was her teacher? She has a moral right to refuse to associate with people she considers, in her life context, to be unsavoury and dangerous.

    Strange how Amesty International, who really do take their investigations seriously and don’t just believe any old rubbish people tell them, found nothing whatsoever for concern in any of your preposterous claims of Human Rights abuses. They actually made a strong point at the end of their report that this whole fabricated human rights issue in the Tibetan exile community was serving only to draw attention AWAY from the REAL human rights abuses being perpetrated by the Chinese against ethnic Tibetans in Tibet.

    Furthermore, Tibet was lost mainly because the efforts of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama to modernize and reform Tibet were thwarted at every turn by the conservative (read: Gelug/Shugdenite) lamas and their aristocratic allies. The Gelug lamas were determined to do all they could to retain their political power in oppostion to the democratization attempts of the 13th Dalai Lama, who was opposed to Shugden practice, not least because it was used as a poitical tool for the Gelugs to maintain their grip of power. See : Shakya, Tsering. The Dragon In The Land Of Snows (1999) and Feigon, Lee. Demystifying Tibet: Unlocking the Secrets of the Land of Snows (1996)

    So, you see my analysis and views are based on properly investigated research and factual, historical analysis. Whereas yours are based on YouTube propaganda videos, sensationalist poor journalism, “mere averments” and exaggerated, unsubstantiated claims. I said it once and I’ll say it again: if there have been any incidents of violence that you claim, take your evidence to the police authorities.
    That you can provide NO PROOF WHATSOEVER from any reputable authority of your claims against the Dalai Lama suggests only this – your claims of Dalai-Lama instigated brutality are false and the attacks of the ISC/NKT against him amount to libel.

  18. How arrogant you are Anonymous to assume all Tibetans cannot write English well.

    You can say this, “Anonymous “Not a Shugden worshipper ;-) ”, Ha ha ha – me, a Tibetan? Well that says a lot about your powers of perception and analysis if you can manage to make that ludicrously incorrect deduction from my writing. That is funny. ”

    You are plain racist. Don’t even need to read your racist mentality comments. If you WERE a Shugden worshipper, what would anyone get? NOTHING. People like you would represent Shugden badly.

  19. With regard to the above discussion about the fact that sensationalist TV shows do not constitute evidence of anything, I just read a very informative article which reveals how these programmes, now broadcast on YouTube, have twisted and distorted the truth in very biased, irresponsible fashion. The author of the article used to be avidly pro-Shugden and anti-Dalai Lama due to the fact that he was fed this sort of disinformation by NKT as factual truth. It was only when he did his own thorough research into the sources and contexts of information presented in the programmes, that he realised how thoroughly he had been deceived by his NKT masters.


  20. BJ – here we have the usual NKT style response to critics: Can’t think of a valid response to the criticism? Just make a personal attack on the person! Try to find something to discredit them and thereby discredit what they say! Really, such worn out tactics can be seen through so easily. Ha ha ha.

    In reply, 2 points:

    1) It is not racist to recognise that a university-educated English person is going to be more fluent in their mother tongue than a native Tibetan could ever be – it is a de facto truth. I’m sure if I went to live in Tibet, even for decades, I would NEVER speak it like a native. If this person really looked at what I write, with complex sentence construction and colloquial UK turn-of-phrase, they could easily tell that English is my mother tongue. Ha ha ha. Racist. What utter tosh. Keep your unfounded vicious insults for your self, BJ.

    2) If said “anonymous” wants to start laying in to me with totally false accusations, he should have made a far more thorough analysis of things I wrote, to make sure. Such as, that I am ex-NKT and that I was at a Summer Festival once and witnessed the rough ejection from the Festival of someone because they were “banned”. And at the time chose to ignore/excuse such horrible behaviour because I was “in love” with the NKT. I’d be very surptrised if there’s even a single Tibetan member of the NKT hanging out at their Summer Festivals!

    Again, both BJ’s and “Anonymous” personal attacks on me are just perfect examples of NKT/ISC Shugden behaviour – come up with some totally spurious reason to make an attack on someone, with no proof of your claim whatsoever, and without any real attempt to investigate the facts of a situation. That’s the NKT/ISC/ Shugden anti-Dalai Lama campain all over. Full of vicious personal attacks and full of claims with no basis in reality, which they say are “proved” by their own propaganda. Absurd.

  21. All the information on this and all dhogyal websites are created by Kundeling lama. Kundeling speaks very good English and has many students in Europe who are fanatically against HH Dalai Lama. Kundeling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0WLTvDlGqE

    Kundeling does all the informational mailing to many organizations around the world in the futile attempt to destroy the reputation of the Dalai Lama. Kundeling was ‘recognized’ as a reincarnation by Lama Gangchen in Italy. They all join forces with NKT to defame Dalai Lama using dhogyal. This is all confirmed by monks of Sera Mey Monastery. Beware of these ‘lamas’.

  22. Aside from the names of great lamas, there is no Dharma here. This should be a serious point for any serious follower of the Buddhadharma, which both sides of this issue claim to be. There are many comments about how various others do not please the individuals making comments or regarding the activities of lamas they do not know. THIS ITSELF is the biggest harm from this issue; the supposed follwers of the Dharma have set aside uninterrupted practice for worldly pursuits. There have been great lamas of all lineages and not one has said that enlightemnment depends upon protectors, or upon defending one’s own way. For those who insist on keeping this banned practice, please do not fixate on that. Remember the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha externally, internally, and in the secret way. And there is no Buddhahood without wishing others the highest good.

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.…Instead of turning away people who practise Dorje Shugden, we should be kind to them. Give them logic and wisdom without fear, then in time they give up the ‘wrong’ practice. Actually Shugden practitioners are not doing anything wrong. But hypothetically, if they are, wouldn’t it be more Buddhistic to be accepting? So those who have views against Dorje Shugden should contemplate this. Those practicing Dorje Shugden should forbear with extreme patience, fortitude and keep your commitments. The time will come as predicted that Dorje Shugden’s practice and it’s terrific quick benefits will be embraced by the world and it will be a practice of many beings.

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