UPDATE: The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion

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From: DS Admin
Date: Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 4:09 AM
Subject: SOAS The Shugden Controversy Panel Discussion
To: [email protected]

Dear Dr. Hill,

It has come to our attention that SOAS will soon be hosting a panel discussion on the topic of “The Shugden Controversy and the 14th Dalai Lama”. I represent the administrators of the website DorjeShugden.com in thanking you for encouraging dialogue and discussion about this very relevant topic that continues to make headlines in Tibetan Buddhist publications everywhere.

DorjeShugden.com was established in 2007 to educate the general public on issues surrounding the deity Dorje Shugden, based on history, scriptural references and on-going developments, some of which were previously only available in the Tibetan language. We are one of the key online reference points for all things Dorje Shugden, and we believe in promoting logical discussion and debate on this topic.

As an educator and one steeped in the rich cultural history of Tibet, I am sure you will agree that the spirit of education and research is not to take things at face value, but to delve deeper and investigate to the core of any matter, religious or otherwise, especially in an institution as highly respected as the University of London.

It is on this basis that I am writing to you with some suggestions for the upcoming event. Based on the information currently available on the SOAS website, the participating speakers do not appear to represent a balance between those for and against the practice of Dorje Shugden. Apart from Kelsang Rabten, a monk from both the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) and the International Shugden Community, the majority of the other speakers, although they come from diverse backgrounds such as Tibetologist Thierry Dodin and former NKT member Carol McQuire, are squarely against the Dorje Shugden practice.

Thus, in the spirit of impartiality and thorough research which SOAS and the University of London are known for, I would like to bring your attention to a number of other highly respected scholars and subject matter experts who I believe will add great value to your event and aid your audience in developing a deeper appreciation of this issue within the context of Tibetan Studies.

1) Geshe Helmut Gassner (Venerable Jampa Lungtog): ‘Dalai Lama Dorje Shugden’, 1999 Western monk and scholar who served as the Dalai Lama’s translator from 1975 – 1995.

2) The 13th Kundeling Rinpoche Reincarnated lama, scholar and vocal Dorje Shugden proponent. He is also the Abbot and Founder of Atisha Charitable Trust in India.

3) Geshe Chime Tsering Former Secretary of the Dorje Shugden Devotees’ Charitable and Religious Society, resident teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute, and translator for Trijang Rinpoche.

4) Geshe Konchok Gyaltsen Former Vice-President of the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi, India

5) Prof Donald S. Lopez Jr: ‘Two Sides of the Same God’, 1998 A professor of Buddhism at the University of Michigan. His published works include ‘Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism in the West’ and ‘Religions of Tibet in Practice’.

6) Geshe Lobsang Sopa Resident Teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute I hope you will consider adding some of these speakers to the panel discussion and once again, I would like to express my gratitude for your efforts in promoting dialogue and discussion on the Dorje Shugden controversy.

Kay Beswick

Please join us on our busy forum (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php) for discussions on Dorje Shugden and General Buddhism

For prayers to Dorje Shugden, please see http://www.dorjeshugden.com/category/prayers/daily-prayers/


Dr Nathan W. Hill’s reply

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 21:20:54 +0100
Subject: Re: SOAS The Shugden Controversy Panel Discussion
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

Dear Ms. Beswick,

Thank you for your message. Although having a diversity of views represented at this event is a very important goal, we are also not interested in presenting the matter as ‘pro’ and ‘con’ per se. Consequently, I don’t think there is a need for a strict balance in the number of speakers on both sides. Nonetheless, I also shared the perception that the perspective of Shugden supporters was underrepresented and we have already sent another invitation to a speaker recommended by Kelsang Rabten.

I am very grateful for the list of potential speakers you have provided. Unfortunately, we do not have funds to invite speakers from abroad and now only have a few days before the event is scheduled. Further speakers cannot be incorporated at this point. If in the future your organization would like to sponsor an event at SOAS (in particular to sponsor a lecture by Prof Donald S. Lopez), we would be most grateful for such support.

very best regards,

Dr Nathan W. Hill
Lecturer in Tibetan and Linguistics
Department of China & Inner Asia and Department of Linguistics
SOAS, University of London
Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square,
London WC1H 0XG, UK
Tel: +44 (0)20 7898 4220

Profile — http://www.soas.ac.uk/staff/staff46254.php
Tibetan Studies at SOAS — http://www.soas.ac.uk/cia/tibetanstudies/


Video: CLEAR VIDEO! The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion at SOAS

Or watch on server | download video (right click & save file)

Video: The Shugden Controversy: A Panel Discussion at SOAS

Or watch on server | download video (right click & save file)

The panel discussion on the practice of Dorje Shugden was held successfully at SOAS as advertised. Above is a video capture of the live stream, sent to DorjeShugden.com by someone appreciative of this monumental event. We would like to thank Dr. Nathan Hill for organizing this panel discussion. It probably took a lot of time, energy and careful consideration to coordinate such an event, the first of its kind ever since the first mention of the ban on Dorje Shugden in 1980. No matter which side you take on the issue, the fact that this discussion was held bodes well for the issue of Dorje Shugden’s practice being resolved in the future. This is sure to be the first of many such serious discussions in academic institutions, providing a needed unbiased platform for dialogue. Please note that the audio on the file we received is not that great, most likely since it was captured from a live stream. Disclaimer: We do not own the copyrights to this video and do not share it here for commercial profit. We are simply sharing this for informational purposes as requested by an avid reader.

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173 total comments on this postSubmit yours
  1. Also, I just spoke with the real Michael Brown, and he tells me he never posted here in the comments, so for anyone reading these comments, bear in mind there is deception taking place here. Someone is using fake names to post, to make it seem there are more people commenting than there actually are.

  2. Robert Helms – I don’t think the NKT have a monopoly on ‘fact finding’ here. The evidence of discrimination against Shugden practitioners abounds (and is multiplying)!

  3. Grateful Kadampa – You have a funny idea of evidence. I have been doing extension research into your claims and found none! Also, the Indian Court found no evidence.

    So it doesn’t exactly seem like the evidence is “abounding”!

  4. Robert Helms – I personally don’t have to check further than the Dalai Lama’s and CTA’s own websites!

    The discrimination has been going on for 20 years — lots of evidence to show a religious apartheid is taking place within the Tibetan exiled community. Actually just this week new reports of discrimination taking place have come in.

    With an unbiased mind (conjoined with compassion) all sorts of evidence presents itself! Try it Robert, you just might see it as well.

  5. I assure you, I have been studying all the evidence as it is presented. Answer my question: why did the Indian Court find no evidence, if it “abounds” as you say?

  6. “You seem to make a lot of assumptions! You use the number of likes for a particular FB page as some sort of proof about the actual number of Shugden practitioners worldwide! How absurd.”

    I wonder how it consitutes absurdity to point out the MASSIVE DISCREPANCY between the claim of 4 million Shugden followers v. 100,000 FB likes. I got my calculator out to ascertain the figure. Only 2.5% of the alleged 4 million followers has shown up. The absurdity here is CLEARLY the claim of 4 million followers.

    “Plus, all this talk about worshipping Shugden! I don’t personally know anyone who ‘worships’ Shugden (anymore than they ‘worship’ Buddha Shakyamuni or Buddha Tara, or Manjushri, etc., etc., and I know a lot of Shugden practitioners.)”

    If you prefer you can substitute “follower” for “worshipper”. You are clearly a devotee of the entity, otherwise you would not be stamping your feet in indigation about the Dalai Lama advising everyone to give it a pass. Drop it. Forget it. If you weren’t such a devotee why would this bother you so? Strange that.

    “Also, how do you ascertain who on this thread is from the NKT? Simply because you don’t agree with their view?! You must have a lot of perceived enemies then.”

    Once again projecting your own state of mind onto someone that you perceive as YOUR enemy. My comments are directed at anyone who holds wrong views, whether they are NKT, or not, is purely secondary. I don’t regard them as my “enemies”. I would not even afford them such a status. What is certain is that they are Shugden supporters and for me, it is also clear that Shugden practitioners, with their vicious personal attacks on people, are anti-dharmic and non-Buddhist.

    “Lastly, you also believe that if someone misinterprets a spiritual instruction it is the sole fault of that tradition? Odd that.”

    It is not a matter of misinterpreting a spiritual instruction. It is a matter of the fact that the whole basis of the way Tantra is taught in the NKT is utterly irresponsible. In the sutras it is stated clearly that a teacher must check out his disciples to ensure that they are ready to receive these instructions and will not misunderstand and misuse them. NKT dishes out Highest Yoga Tantra Empowerments to ANYONE who just happens along to one of their “festivals”. They don’t explain beforehand the seriousness of the matter and that these “empowerments” are potentially dangerous to mental health and should not to be taken lightly – they just talk about “blessings”, instead. This irresponsible attitude is bound to cause problems for many people. But they couldn’t care less because often the kickback for them is the breeding of NKT fanatics – if others get damaged along the way, so what?

    And for the slimey gutter-press would-be News-of-the-World style “investigators” among you – I expect you can find plenty of dirt on me if you want to dig for it but I have nothing to hide and am not ashamed of anything from my colourful past. You see, it’s not about me and my character, it’s about Shugden and its followers, both NKT and others, versus the Dalai Lama. I am not part of the battle, not a Dalai Lama follower and not a Shugden follower. I am an ex-NKT member and I left not because they “harmed” me, but because I saw through their leaders for the manipulative, controlling, narcissistic charlatans that they are.

  7. “The discrimination has been going on for 20 years — lots of evidence to show a religious apartheid is taking place within the Tibetan exiled community. Actually just this week new reports of discrimination taking place have come in.”

    Shugden monks in Tibet are given preferential treatment and support by the Chinese occupiers of Tibet. They have no need for exiled status. They can go home and practice Shugden in Tibet with all the freedom they require, unlike the supporters of the Dalai Lama and his view of a Free Tibet.

    If there are divisions and hostilities among people in the Tibetan exiled community I think that it is the Shugden practioners themselves who have fostered and encouraged this, by their hateful attitude towards the beloved leader of the vast majority of Tibetans. As Dr Mills said in the discussion, the monastery in which he lived where they quietly did a bit of Shugden propitiation for political protection purposes, specifically requested the international Shugden community NOT to make such a fuss and cause a problem for them in this practice, where none existed before.

    What may have been a small problem due to difference of opinion on Shugden practice has been turned into a massive weltering boil of poison, thanks to the actions of the NKT and its various “protest” front groups.

    To turn round and attack the Dalai Lama as being the cause of the tensions and problems in the Tibetan exiled community would be somewhat akin to the Northern Ireland Protestants blaming the Pope for the actions of the IRA, or the Archbishop of Canterbury for the actions of the UDR. Absurd.

  8. This is a dictionary definition of “cult” posted earlier:
    “a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object”.

    This is poster “Karma”‘s response: “If that is your definition of cult, then all the Tibetan Buddhists practices are cults”.

    Here we have a perfect example of totally illogical argument, typical of NKT/Shugden supporters technique, whereby a statement is misrepresented to mean something it does not mean at all.

    The dictionary definition, IN NO WAY, implies Karma’s deduction that this means “all Tibetan Buddhist practices are cults”. For example, Lamrim is a Tibetan Buddhist practice. Lamrim practice does not involve deity worship and its practioners are not a cult. Likewise Lojong and Tonglen practice do not involve veneration of a deity and practiiotioners thereof do not constitute a cult. Therefore all Tibetan Buddhist Practices are NOT included in this dictionary definiton of cult.

    Karma – your logic and argument are specious and utterly false. Again, this is typical of all the Shugden supporter/NKT arguments and attacks against the Dalai Lama. It is the norm for these people to mislead and misrepresent in almost everything they say and do. Such is the effect of Shugden devotion.

  9. Anonymous – OK, then I guess I (and many others) are ‘followers’ of Buddha Shaykamuni, Buddha Tara, Manjushri, (some even!) Dorje Shugden! No foot stamping here mate towards that line up! Not really sure ‘how’ the Dalai Lama thought he was OK to try and wipe out a lineage (although I do know the ‘why’ which is a political one).

    You write: “And for the slimey gutter-press would-be News-of-the-World style “investigators” among you – I expect you can find plenty of dirt on me if you want to dig for it but I have nothing to hide and am not ashamed of anything from my colourful past.” OK then — Really, I completely understand why you are under the name of ‘Anonymous’!

    So much more to say on this — sadly, I have so little time. Will reply to your other comments ASAP!

  10. Linda – You write: “To turn round and attack the Dalai Lama as being the cause of the tensions and problems in the Tibetan exiled community would be somewhat akin to the Northern Ireland Protestants blaming the Pope for the actions of the IRA, or the Archbishop of Canterbury for the actions of the UDR. Absurd.”

    Not sure where to start here except to say the Dalai Lama issued a ban on Shugden practice about 20 years ago. The CTA and other faithful Dalai Lama supporters simply have been carrying out his (political) wishes over the years.

    So, should those discriminated against blame the Dalai Lama himself (he issued the ban after all!), or would it be more appropriate to blame those who carried out his wishes?

    Surely the Dalai Lama isn’t to blame, correct? It must be the CTA and followers of the Dalai Lama — are they not simply showing their faith to him and carrying out what he (Dalai Lama) deems appropriate?

    Lots to consider here!

  11. This was posted on the Facebook group We Need to Talk About Shugden. Thought it was interesting.

    Jampa Jamyang: Haha, Carol McQuire! I think that’s a good idea – keep the Michael Brown with most virtuous friends, haha! NKT is HUGE, they have so many capable and well trained Geshes, monks and nuns that can debate on this topic. They have the resources to spread all over the net and definitely to try signing in as one of us in this group! They’ve been outright protesting and going against His Holiness for the longest time! Michael Brown bro, you sure have a lot of fans out there, and they are all geshes and ordained people!!! What an honour, haha!

    Anyway, coming back to the main topic of our group – the dogyal, I wish to know and understand more from your personal point of view in terms of the nature of this spirit and history. If we start calling names without sound basis, we sure look like a bunch of bitter losers seeking for attention, not much different from the forever protesting NKT people . Seriously, what’s the point of starting a group that cannot educate the mass about the spirit? Anyone of you who have been in India and understand what’s really happening there? Ganghen and Kundeling are very active in promoting this spirit. In China, it spreads like wild fire and the Chinese is supporting that! They are loaded with resources for sure! They have Panchen, Thubten Phurpu, Jampa Ngodup and Denma Gonsa spreading this spirit to millions there! What can we do about it?

    Carol McQuire I’ve listened to your talk at the SOAS recently. Well done! Can you please share more with us what is it like being an NKT survivor? What makes you have the courage walking out of it?

  12. Jampa Jamyang is right. The Dorje Shugden practice is spreading like wildfire in Tibet and China and the Chinese are supporting the spread. Chinese government have unlimited resources and CTA will not be able to compete at all. Millions are getting this practice in Tibet. The CTA is not intelligent enough to see the ban is bringing this practice to many more people. If the Dalai Lama and his cronies want this to stop, then they have to do something about the ban. The Chinese govt see this ban by Dalai Lama against Shugden as the very reason to spread Shugden. All the dharma centres in the West with their lamas can not do anything to stop this growing number and must sit by and watch helplessly as Shugden’s practice grows monumentally.

  13. The NKT survivors group on FB have no office, nothing organized and zero effect on anyone. It’s just a bunch of angry people who had an ulterior motivate to join NKT in the first place perhaps and was found out and left due to embarrassment. Power hungry, attention starved, affirmation of something they missed in childhood or something along those lines hoping to find a replacement in NKT. Some of them just get online and gossip and complain. From their IP addresses they are from various parts of UK and North America. Throw in India for some of the money monks from Sera Mey Monastery that are so free to join into their worldly chat. Inappropriate for a monk or Tulku to do so btw. These people instead of bowing out gracefully when their wishes in NKT were not fulfilled, they just form a group on FB. Is that all? What can this do? Their FB page has no effect. No positive consequences. No one cares and it does nothing for no one. And none of them are qualified therapists or doctors to help the supposed survivors recover if there was anything to recover from. So how are they helping anyone on their ‘survivor’s’ page except increase hate, gossip and waste their time away spewing hatred. None of them are qualified nor trained to help anyone. Get real.
    The very fact they lock their group and you cannot join their conversation freely without their approval is a clear indication they are paranoid and wish to control what is being said as it’s not the truth in full. It’s their truth. They will say this and that for hours as they are so free, if they are honest, they won’t be insecure about whoever posts and whatever is posted and let it be open. Let is be a fair debate. If they were genuine, they would open it and anyone can comment just like the space here left open to comment. Imagine, this is a Shugden website and pro and anti Shugden people can both post freely. This shows this site is very confident of themselves, their information and whatever is said does not worry them. Salute to being open. Since the NKT survivor’s page are not open and they only let anti-NKT and anti Shugden people post, how real is their claims on their page? How confident are they? Cowards. They are not honest because anyone with opposing views are not allowed. They do not allow any opposition, sounds like the CTA as a matter of fact. They are not real in their accusations at all.

    Nothing to worry about and nothing to contend with. Just let the few of them gossip on and on until the cows come home day in and day out. Nothing will be accomplished at all. Nothing will come of it for sure.

  14. All these years of banning or disassociation of Shugden from CTA`s policy, anything wonderous success never ever has occured in gaining Tibet back or to get the dialogue moving with the Chinese. There has been always some misfortune and backlashes whatever CTA tried to do.
    If CTA again takes up and starts worshipping Shugden, perhaps wonderful miracle could happen for TIBET and to Dalai Lama.

    My advice for CTA: How not start worshipping Shugden again for the next 5 years as a trial to see any postive changes for Tibet and Tibetans ??????

  15. Robert Helms, the Indian High Court in Delhi was asked for two things : an order of mandamus against the Indian Police Authorities to force them to enforce the law against violence and intimidation, and an injunction against the CTA and His Holiness the Dalai Lama. The Judge refused the application on two grounds: first, he had no jurisdiction over matters arising outside Delhi, and second courts would not, on general principal, interfere with Police authorities to force them to act. There was no evidence presented to the court of complaints to the local police by individuals of maltreatment or failure by the police to enforce. The court left it to individuals to complain to the local police. If the local police failed to act then further remedies might be available to them.

    In general the Indian High Court did not investigate facts but relies on the parties to bring evidence. I don’t think you can rely on that judgment for the proposition that “the indian court found no evidence” and the implication that there is none to be found.

  16. Kelsang Rabga the group is called “WE need to talk about Shugden”. It was set up in response to the fact that most of us immediately get banned and have our posts deleted from NKT run FB pages which slander and libel HHDL. We got fed up with never being allowed to have our say. So this group is for us to have our say without engaging in stupid arguments with NKT/Shugden fanatics which just go round and round in circles. Every time answers and evidence is presented to refute your claims, they are just dismissed, deleted or ignored and you fanatics keep on saying stuff like – “there’s no proof…not a shred of evidence…blah blah blah”

    If NKT FB pages/blogs etc did not ban us, delete our comments etc then perhaps we would not have needed to set up a FB page of our own, where we can discuss issues as we please, without a bunch of noxious harpies snapping at our heels, posting personal attacks on us and defaming our good characters. You only have yourselves to blame.

  17. Michael Maynard – “In general the Indian High Court did not investigate facts but relies on the parties to bring evidence. I don’t think you can rely on that judgment for the proposition that “the indian court found no evidence” and the implication that there is none to be found”.

    LMAO – So you people go to the expense and trouble of bringing a High Court Action for persecution, discrimination etc but don’t actually bother to present your evidence to prove your case? I thought there was supposed to be evidence “abounding” everywhere. If your claims were actually TRUE, and not just exaggeration, fabrication and “vague averment”, then presumably it would have been easy to prove them. Why didn’t you? Because you CANNOT. You CANNOT because they are without real substance of what you claim them to be. How ridiculous to try to wriggle out of the obvious fact that this supposed “evidence” that you present to the world in your fact-twisting propagandist videos is no evidence at all.

    What we have is just a dispute, a disagreement, and Tibetan people who support the Dalai Lama’s view don’t want anything to do with you because of your hateful speech and actions towards HHDL, and because they fear Shugden and his supporters. Some are even afraid to speak the name of Shugden – he is considered such a nasty demon who hurts those who don’t follow the Gelug tradition “purely” ie who are not Gelug sectarians. Their attitude to Shugden is rather like the Harry Potter characters who won’t speak the name of Voldemort.

    The fact that the Indian Court found no evidence is because you couldn’t give them any. You couldn’t give them any because none exists that actually proves the claims of breach of Human Rights, repression of religious freedom or persecution. Get over it!

    The Dalai Lama and most Tibetan Buddhists view Dolgyal veneration as a corruption of real Buddhism. By going for refuge to a worldly spirit, you are not Buddhist at all. By the Shugden followers use of outrageous harmful speech and lies, it is clear to all right-minded people that you are not Buddhist. Shugden followers are anti-Tibetan freedom, anti-Dalai Lama, pro-Chinese government collaborators in their campaign to destroy the Dalai Lama and the right of Tibetans to have their country back. Really are you so stupid that you cannot work it out that this is why many of them don’t like you and want no association with you whatsoever? Because of their resulting dislike towards you, you then add insult to injury by claiming to the world that they are persecuting you! Your presentation of the situation is pure horse excrement – far, far removed from the reality.

    Right, I need to stop posting replies on here as it is a total waste of time speaking to you people. Like flogging a dead horse. That’s why we don’t allow you on our FB page. Debating/arguing with fanatics is a waste of time and effort.

    Good day to you all and may you be quickly freed from Shugden’s demonic possession of your minds.

  18. Linda Ciardiello-

    Since the ban of Shugden, nothing good has come. Nothing beneficial has resulted. So many family and monastery break apart. Nothing harmonious has come. Think of it carefully. So many of us are suffering and living in fear in India. You don’t live in India in a Tibetan community and you don’t understand. I as a Tibetan have lost so much and even my brother and family because of ban. This is not Buddhism. No freedom and only fear. Stop supporting the fear and ban.

  19. Yeah right, “Gyatso Drolma” – go to the police then and get the perpetrators who have you “living in fear” arrested. Or, better still give up your attachment to this divisive sectarian practice and harmony will quickly be restored among your family and among Tibetan Buddhists. Why this big attachment to some largely imaginary entity? Did Buddha say anywhere you must be totally devoted to your chosen “Protector” above and beyond anything else, especially your friends and family? No – of course not. Dolgyal Shugden had not even been invented then and besides, worshipping this deity, practicing that deity – what has any of it really got to do with the Path to Enlightenment, which necessitates freedom from all attachment – including attachment to protectors and deities!

    For goodness sake, let it go – it really is more trouble than it’s worth. Think about it a bit, instead of selfishly clinging so hard to being right and to a practice which is really not very important for any right-minded person engaged on a genuine spiritual path. I’m sure your family would welcome you back into their arms if you stopped all this peddling of hatred towards the Dalai Lama. If you must practice Shugden just get on with it, no need to make a song and dance about it in front of the whole world. What is all this drama and attention-seeking from you tiny bunch of non-Buddhist theists really about? Maybe you need to get psychiatric help?

    What good has the fanatical devotion to this Shugden entity good done for you? Torn your family apart, as you say… Fat lot of good his “protection” has done for you, isn’t it?

    And as for Sam Tshering suggesting that the Tibetans turn to good old Shugden for help and protection! Yeah, great idea Sam Tshering – with a track record like he has for protecting Tibet and the Tibetan people, I wouldn’t be putting any bets on a positive outcome if the Dalai Lama took your advice. Again, a fat lot of good Shugden worship did for the Dalai Lama and the ruling Gelug elite of Tibet when the Chinese marched in, murdering and destroying anyone or anything in the name of “liberation” of Tibet.

    In fact, when you think about it, when Shugden practice was really in its ascendancy in Tibet, when the Dalai Lama and most of the high ranking people practiced it, that time co-incided exactly with the beginning of China’a aggression towards Tibet, leading to the invasion in the 50s, the forcing out of the Dalai Lama and the continuing regime of REAL FEAR, REAL REPRESSION and REAL PERSECUTION against the Tibetan people – unlike this horse-doo-doo story about your supposedly terrible life in India, Gyatso Drolma. Not only is what you claim to be “terrible suffering” a total insult to the PEOPLE WHO REALLY ENDURE TERRIBLE SUFFERING, it is an insult to the Indian people and the Indian government too. If living in India is so terrible for you, go back to Tibet – that’s what you Tibetans want isn’t it? And you will be welcomed with open arms by your Chinese supporters there. So stop crying your crocodile tears and quit your transparent attempts to tug people’s heartstrings. It’s called narcissistic manipulation – we don’t buy it – WE DON’T BELIEVE YOU.

    For more insight into Narcissistic manipulation, please keep reading. Now, who does this remind me of? :

    “Another way that the narcissist’s ego gets special attention is through the role of being a victim. Welcome to the victimized extreme narcissist. Most persons recognize ego as arrogance. At the same time they fail to see the subtle deception of ego when it takes the role of a being a victim. As kind and compassion-driven human beings, we easily are fooled by this form of extreme ego. We are constantly hearing the voices of the needy in the media through a variety of forms. The disenfranchised, the poor, the homeless, the hurting, the refugees, the abused, and the list goes on. What we often do not see is that we are many times shamed by these voices for not doing enough for them. All along it is easy to be manipulated as we respond from our hearts. The deception of the ego is that the narcissist can hide behind misfortune and victimization in order to shame you into feeling and believing that they suffer more than you do. They will say that you don’t care enough for them. They will make you feel that you have not done enough to help them. The ego wants attention, control, gain, and power over others by positioning itself as a “poor and helpless” victim. It does this; all the while it soaks up the attention and control over others. In the eyes of an extreme narcissist, their situation is always right and totally justified. Instead of taking responsibility for self and consequences, the extreme narcissist tries to make others feel responsible for their plight. Because extreme narcissists are incredibly adept at the game of manipulation, they will always find a way to turn the tables on you. They will try to make you responsible and feel guilty for not helping them or taking their side and cause.”

  20. Dear Gyatso Drolma,

    No one has the right to judge your pain, distress and fears. Everyone has their own experiences. Everyone has their pains. How much it affects them has nothing to do how intense the situation was. Perhaps you are one of the people who escaped from Tibet (refugee) into India for exile. Many were imprisoned for years, beaten and also tortured. Many Tibetans from Tibet in India suffer severe trauma and when they arrive in India, instead of peace they are persecuted again for their practice of Dorje Shugden.

    You have every right to any sympathy and understanding. You have been religiously persecuted and that is the truth.

    May you find a place of freedom to worship your faith.

  21. Is the breach of Drolma Gyatso’s right to sympathy another “human right” that you Shugdenites are going to demonstrate about ? Are you going to hold up placards demanding the human right to “sympathy”, and shout throughout the Dalai Lama’s teachings in Hamburg, so as to disturb the peace and enjoyment of the thousands who have come to hear him give Dharma talks. Hardly the way to endear yourselves to the people who you think owe you “sympathy” is it?

    “You have been religiously persecuted and that is the truth. ” No, Christian Dodds it is not “the truth” – it is a claim. Truth, by its very nature, is incontravertible. All the videos and stories I have seen that supposedly show “persecution” are gross exaggerations which include both lies and fabrication. For example, the video which showed monks being made “homeless” actually showed BURMESE monks on traditional alms-rounds with begging bowls. And this video was supposed to make us feel “sympathy” for “homeless” monks. In fact it was pure fabrication, distortion of truth and baseless claims. Another video showed a supposed “mob attacking” Shugden people. The video showed just a traffic jam with someone CLAIMING they were being attacked. There was no sign or sound, NONE WHATSOEVER, of the supposed rampaging “mob”. Another showed some people milling about taking photos outside a monastery and this was billed as the monastery being “attacked”. The list of fabrication, exaggeration and distortion of facts goes on and on. Truth? yeah right.

  22. Furthermore. Christian Dodds, the Tibetans who escape to India are, each and every one of them, given a personal interview with HHDL, who makes sure they have everything they need. If it wasn’t for the tireless work of the Dalai Lama and CTA to preserve the culture of the Tibetans in India, to organise housing,schooling, food etc for them who else would have done it for them? And this is how they repay the massive kindness of His Holiness the Dalai Lama – by shouting “Liar” at him and calling him “the worst dictator of modern times”. And then you expect us to give these churls sympathy? Check out some of your own articles on this site. People like Drolma Gyatso have no need to be in “exile” – their Shugden lamas are beloved by the Chinese rulers of Tibet. What is he/she doing in “exile” at all? Has he/she just come to cause trouble for the exile community, the CTA and the Dalai Lama? It certainly looks that way.

  23. Why is Dalai Lama infallible? Why can’t the Dalai Lama be wrong?
    Why be such a strong follower of the cult of Dalai Lama? Dalai Lama is human. He can be wrong and he is not above the law. He is not a god or super human. He is human, so don’t be fanatical about him. He should release the ban and stop all the persecution. He will have to. It will become he has to backtrack and release the ban.

  24. It’s not me who’s fanatical. I am not a follower of HHDL. It is you Shugden followers who are the fanatics. Why else would you put the worship of some irrelevant deity above your relationships with family and friends and above the unity of the Tibetan people in exile? If you weren’t Shugden fanatics why would you go to such lengths to slander and villify the Dalai Lama simply because he considers Shugden to be nothing more than a worldly spirit? If you weren’t fanatics why would it bother you so? If you weren’t fanatics why would you pursue the Dalai Lama all over the world, write/make and promote books/videos full of hateful lies about him, just because he says Shugden worship is spirit worship and therefore not a valid part of Buddhist religion? Only fanatics would behave as you do. Yet, as usual you are like the pot calling the kettle black, accusing ME of being a fanatic. I’m not even a Buddhist – just interested in Buddhism, spiritual growth, and interested in the side of truth and justice against manipulative, deceitful propagandists. Me, a fanatic? Ha ha ha.

  25. Good morning. Namastay, Tashi Delek

    That is so not true. Dalai Lama is a God king. He has been served since his childhood. He never ever made one cup of tea for himself. Do you think he will do anything for others? He is the boss.

    All he did was received money from CIA and others in the name of Tibetans. And used the money for his own purposes. All the works are done by the people who got paid little. On the contrary, Dalai Lama’s family members are rich and all went abroad to have a better future with a lot of money.

    Seriously, I don’t know how did he get his NOBEL PRIZE. By just praying, controlling people.

    As for the ban on Shugden Worshipers, it is political movement. A lot of Khampa fighters were Shugden followers and they were very loyal to their own Gurus. I remember during 1980s, one of the Khampa leader offended Dalai Lama by saying “we only worship our own gurus” Since then, Dalai lama started campaign against them. The rest, you will find out more from reading History book not written by CTA. Read the book “The False Dalai Lama.”

    No need to wasting time arguing here.
    Good day

  26. Anonymous – I’m not sure what all your recent posts are about — they are not making much sense.

  27. Anonymous – re your slanderous claims about the Dalai Lama using money for his “own purposes” and attacking other lamas, I quote from an article “The White Shadow of the Dalai Lama”:

    “His Holiness takes no money for teachings or talks. Teachings in India are free and Tibetan tea and bread are generously served to attendees. Proceeds for events overseas are used to cover the expenses of his visit. Any excess is used by the host sponsors either for charitable purposes or to further their own mission. If you want to donate to His Holiness, you will be redirected by his website to the Dalai Lama Trust: http://www.dalailamatrust.org This is a non-profit charity, supporting many causes. In 2013, the trust contributed $50,000 to the Red Cross to support typhoon relief efforts in the Phillipines and $1,250,000 to the Emory-Tibet Science Partnership. In 2012, the trust contributed $1,510,000 to support science partnership projects in the West, including $1,250,000 to the Mind and Life Institute in Hadley, Mass. In that year, $10,000 went to the Tibet Fund in New York and $84,350 went to the Tibetan Village project in Westminster, Colorado.”

    Perhaps you were getting confused with Kelsang Gyatso, who does indeed use all NKT funds for his “own purposes” ie building temples to glorify himself and his NKT, buying hotels, mansions etc. A lot of KG/NKT property empire was also funded by British Taxpayers in the form of Housing and Unemployment Benefit claimed by the residents living and working at the centres. I know this for a fact as I was one of them, and I can guarantee that the vast majority of other residents at the time were all doing the same.

    When I was in the NKT we were always told that charitable giving was not important – all that was important was spreading NKT dharma – also known as, expanding the property empire of NKT.

    Yet again, we see the pot calling the kettle black. Shugden worship is a circular, self-serving practice. The worship of Shugden was initiated to protect and serve the Gelug tradition’s power and influence. On the other hand, the Dalai Lama is actively against the sectarianism that Shugden embodies.

    Again, re your claim that Dalai Lama has been jealous and actively attacked other lamas. Again, just more slander. Below is a detailed example which PROVES BEYOND DOUBT that Shugden people are treacherous liars. This example is from one of your “Dalai Lama Truth” (ie LIES) fabricated slanderous videos, where it was said that the Dalai Lama had got Dudzom Rinpoche imprisoned because he was supposedly jealous of him. But when you read Dudzom’s biography you will find that this is just another big fat LIE spread by Shugden supporters:

    This tale itself that is part of the Dolgyal “Great Deception”. It’s not a Dalai Lama “Great Deception” – it is a Shugden Great Deception. For the truth about who played which role in the imprisonment of Dudjom Rimpoche read his Biography Light of Fearless Indestructible Wisdom: The Life and Legacy of H. H. Dudjom Rinpoche by Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal. Page 129 -131. You will learn that the persons who orchestrated his imprisonment were motivated by political and “sectarian sentiments” against Dudjom Rinpoche for giving popular non-Gelug teachings (ie Dolgyal followers?!?). The Dalai Lama and other high ranking people put pressure on the Indian government to have him released.

    Below is the slanderous video produced by the Shugdenites. And when you think about it’s pretty obvious that it was Shugden people behind the imprisonment of Dudzom. He was was a popular teacher of Nyingma which Pabongka considered a false path and the Yellow Book is full of examples of how Shugden attacks and strikes down anyone who practices teachings other than Gelug ie Nyingma teachings:

    The video in question can be viewed on YouTube “Dudjom Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama”

    This video has got the facts upside down. But that is what we come to expect from all the propaganda spewed out by Shugden followers. Here we see a very typical example of the way Dolgyal followers distort the truth out of all recognition and create a totally fictional version of events, a fabrication to fuel their totally false worldview, in order to condemn His Holiness the Dalai Lama for the sins, of which it is they themselves who are guilty”.

    So you are right “Anonymous” – the TRUTH WILL COME OUT. It’s coming out already and we know who are the real jealous liars, against religious freedom. It is Shugden and his followers. Not the Dalai Lama. What your campaign is all about is a massive con trick – deflecting the reality that everything said about the Dalai Lama is actually a description of Shugden and his followers, especially the NKT and Kelsang Gyatso. Pah!

    (This comment was reposted and all links removed because I could not post it with all the links)

  28. Grateful Kadampa
    Sorry my comments don’t make sense to you. This isn’t helped by the fact that there is more than one “anonymous”. But if you are referring to the various posts here which strike at the heart of the many falsities and deluded worldview regarding the real agenda of the pro-Shugden/anti Dalai Lama campaign – I can understand that for you it doesn’t “make sense” . No, it wouldn’t make sense to you, because your mind is completely full of false information, wrong views and all your faulty assumptions based thereon. When the true facts and correct analysis come along and hit you in the face (so to speak), your mind can’t cope with it – DOES NOT COMPUTE! DANGER! KELSANGBOT PROGRAMME SYSTEM OVERLOAD! DOES NOT COMPUTE!

    I think that’s why they encourage you not to do to much analysis or study of information on the issue, other than the propaganda they feed you. They tell you it might “damage your faith”, so best not look into it eh? Heaven knows, it wouldn’t do for the NKT if their fanatics actually started thinking for themselves!

  29. Anonymous – Yes, I think some of my confusion arose from the numerous Anonymous’ posting. Thanks for clearing that up!

    Couple of questions for you: (if you have the time)
    1) What do you see the real agenda being?
    2) How could you possibly know my particular mind and what I may or may not think?

    BTW: No one in the ISC hands anyone a packet of information and says to “study up people — this is the party line”! This notion is a complete falsity. Actually, it seems to me like you are talking about the CTA here!

  30. Sorry Grateful Kadampa, it’s true that I don’t know you personally. However, due to the wording of your “nom de plume” it would seem probable that you are a member/follower of the New Kadampa Tradition.

    The ISC/NKT do not give you an “information” pack, that is true. But they give you a propaganda tract – I think it’s called “The Great Deception” or some other new name for the same old childish, spiteful garbage about the Dalai Lama, penned presumably by the renowned fake Geshe Kelsang. They also kindly provide you with a YouTube news channel – that wonderful impartial organ of balanced news broadcasting, presented by famous investigative journalist Rabten – “ISC” bringing you up-to-the minute “breaking news” and “in depth reports”. Ha ha ha. Plus there’s the “Dalai Lama Truth(sic)” aka “Dalai Lama Lies” Facebook page and many other internet web-sites, blogs etc. So no, they don’t literally have to say to you “think this” or “this is the party line” – it’s not really necessary for them to be so “direct”, is it? ;-)

    So you see, Grateful Krudumper, that “notion” is not a “complete falsity” – not at all. The thing about brainwashing is it can only really succeed when the “victim” does not notice it. The methods used on you to control how you think and behave, may just be slightly too subtle to notice, for someone who operates with the clunking mentality and black and white thinking, that so typifies the narrow-mindedness of “NKThink” – where you are only allowed to study books by Kelsang Gyatso, and are told that nothing else is really worth bothering with, not even the original texts. Why not? Because it might confuse your naive and fragile little minds and so “damage your faith”. Aw! How patronising!

    “Complete falsity”, eh? Dream on buddy.

  31. Grateful Kadampa, as for the “real agenda”. We have to look at Kelsang Gyatso for that. After all, it is really he who is behind all this. When he tells you lot to jump, you jump, when he tells you to protest, you protest. When he tells you to stop protesting, you stop protesting.

    Sadly, Kelsang Gyatso is lost in his own Narcissistic Cult World. He’s just really, really angry that the Dalai Lama doesn’t agree with Shugden worship and he is determined to win, so that he can prove to himself and the world, especially the Tibetans, that he is right. I think his fantasy is that the world will turn to him, away from the Dalai Lama, and herald him as the “Third Buddha”, the new world messiah. LMAO.

    Oh yes he’s desperate for recognition by the Tibetans, especially after he was contemptuously struck off by his of his own erstwhile monastery and dumped by his own uncle That’s why he has suddenly turned out his first ever book written in Tibetan!?! That’s why he’s desperate to get all these temples built all over the world. He wants to BE SOMEBODY. All these protests are a show of his childish jealousy of the Dalai Lama, a form of attention-seeking for someone who feels slighted and ignored. But he is, and always will be just a grey smudge, against the brilliant shining light of the Dalai Lama. These protests are an enactment of a small child’s buried rage …. “Look at ME! I’m the good guy, I’m the best – not him( he’s bad), ME!” …stamping his feet in a rage. :-D

    You might like to read up on the “Cult of the Narcissist” by Sam Vaknin. Below is a quote from it. Now, who does this remind you of?

    “The narcissist is the guru at the centre of a cult. Like other gurus, he demands complete obedience from his flock. He feels entitled to adulation and special treatment by his followers. He punishes the wayward and the straying lambs. He enforces discipline, adherence to his teachings, and common goals. The less accomplished he is in reality (eg without even having true Geshe status) – the more stringent his mastery, the more outlandish and incredible his mission and message, and the more pervasive the brainwashing.

    Cult leaders are narcissists who failed in their quest to “be someone”, to become famous, and to impress the world with their uniqueness, talents, traits, and skills. Such disgruntled narcissists withdraw into a “Pathological Narcissistic Space” that assumes the hallmarks of a cult.

    The members of the narcissist’s mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction. He imposes on them an exclusionary or inclusionary shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions, “enemies”, mythical-grandiose narratives, and apocalyptic scenarios if he is flouted. It is a mental enclave of suspended judgement which fast becomes the disciples’s comfort zone where – devoid of all responsibilities and the guilt attendant on failure (“performance anxiety”) – they feel calm and assured of the master’s unconditional acceptance and “love”. It is a re-enactment of the follower’s early childhood, only this time with an ideal, benevolent parent.

    Exclusionary shared psychosis involves the physical and emotional isolation of the narcissist and his “flock” (spouse, children, fans, friends) from the outside world in order to better shield them from imminent threats and hostile intentions. Inclusionary shared psychosis revolves around attempts to spread the narcissist’s message in a missionary fashion among friends, colleagues, co-workers, fans, churchgoers, and anyone else who comes across the mini-cult.

    He acts in a patronising and condescending manner and criticises often. He alternates between emphasising the minutest faults (devalues) and exaggerating the talents, traits, and skills (idealises) of the members of his cult. He is wildly unrealistic in his expectations – which legitimises his subsequent abusive conduct.

    The narcissist claims to be infallible, superior, talented, skilful, omnipotent, and omniscient. He often lies and confabulates to support these unfounded claims. Within his cult, he expects awe, admiration, adulation, and constant attention commensurate with his outlandish stories and assertions. He reinterprets reality to fit his fantasies.

    His thinking is dogmatic, rigid, and doctrinaire. He does not countenance free thought, pluralism, or free speech and doesn’t brook criticism and disagreement. He demands – and often gets – complete trust and the relegation to his capable hands of all decision-making.”

    Oh dear, or dear, oh dear. Hopefully a light bulb might have gone off in that muddled head of yours. But then again, not likely – knowing how entrenched and invested most of you people are in being right, and bleating “Shugden is not a cult! We’re not fanatics! – It’s you – YOU are a Dalai Lama cultist, you, you, CTA spy, you, you Dalai Lama fanatic, you – it’s YOU!”
    LMAO :-D

    Really, if you could just listen to yourselves it’s actually quite funny, when you forget how serious it is too.

  32. I really find all the talk against NKT so fascinating on this thread. All the haters of NKT has really caught my interest. Now I will go to an NKT centre to join in on the talks to observe. Something so hated must also be very much loved by another group. Dorje Shugden the protector of NKT must be very powerful.

  33. Dear Anonymous, I am not moved, shaken or stirred by any of what you write here. I do believe I know who you are though.

    I always find when someone on these types of threads resorts to spiteful and sarcastic remarks (to the extent you are using them) it is time to take a break.

    If you are the same ‘Anonymous’ who responded to Gatyso Drolma’s post — then it is definitely time to take a break.

    Everyone has a right to freedom of speech and to have a different view from another. When those views become aggressive — that is quite a different situation.

    I assume you are a student of the Dalai Lama’s? If so, your words to not show a good example to others.

  34. There you go Grateful Kadamper:

    Kelsang Gyatso’s agenda for How to Become More Important and Famous than the Dalai Lama


    1. Pick a fight with the Dalai Lama
    2. Find an excuse for a fight
    3. Villify him with every trick in the book learnt from propaganda specialists : use falsification, exaggeration, deception, “playing the victim”, manipulation, especially self-projection. ie Accuse the Dalai Lama of everything rotten that I actually am and do myself.
    4. Turn the world, especially Tibetans, against the Dalai Lama
    5. Win Tibetan admiration for myself (Note to Self : write book in Tibetan)
    6. Get myself recognised as being better, more special, than the Dalai Lama. (Note to Self: must get round to writing book in Tibetan)
    7. Get myself recognised as the Third Buddha by the Whole World.
    8. Get acknowledged by Tibetans as the reincarnation of Je Tsongkhapa.
    9. Get whole world to become pure New Kadampa Dharma practioners ie become my followers, cease “meaningless activities” by only reading books by me and following my instructions (because I know everything, I never make mistakes and I am right about everything. Dorje Shugden has made this clear to me. So it must be true.)

  35. No, Grateful Krudumper, I am not a student of the Dalai Lama. I’m not a Buddhist. You are though. And YOUR exhibition of DIVISIVE utterly HARMFUL SPEECH towards the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan people is not a good example of Buddhism. The antics of these NKT people dancing, drumming and shouting in the street, with megaphones, just to disturb the peace of sincere people who want to listen to teachings from a renowned Buddhist master is truly a disgrace to Buddhism. So don’t come over all righteous to me, I don’t buy it. But that’s NKT all over, all their accusations against others just dripping with hypocrisy. Before you start lecturing me, a non-Buddhist, about my example, just think about YOUR example first, next time you get on that coach for one of your disgraceful “protests”.

  36. UK – yeah you get on down to your local NKT centre – I see you quite fancy the idea of worshipping power. If it’s power you want and not a genuine spiritual path, you could be in the right place for that. NKT is full of power-mad people in the hierarchy – remember the old adage “Help is the sunny side of control”. I’m sure you could get in there too – if you have enough “faith” and do everything your told, work hard without complaint to expand your local centre and study hard – but only Kelsang Gyatso’s books, mind – if you’re seen reading anything else you could blow it. Before you know it you could become a Centre Manager, even a Resident Teacher. I recommend going for “Resident Teacher” job – everyone runs around doing everything for you, at your beck and call – must be great having all that power over people eh? 6 months oughta do it for you. Go for it!

  37. Grateful Kadampa – I’m sorry I have to pick you up on your last comment yet again. Yes I am being sarcastic at times but not really “aggressive”. Taking the P. out of you? Yes, guilty as charged! What’s up? Sense of humour failure or what? I guess I should have known better than try to be a bit amusing among fanatics. I forgot fanatics do not have a sense of humour. One thing they REALLY can’t stand is people making fun of them. I guess I should have had more “sympathy” for your “mental illness” of religious fanaticism. Remember though “If you can laugh at yourself, you will always be amused”. ;-)

  38. Anonymous – Oh, I think you are very aggressive. Is there nothing else you can do with your time than troll around these sites and ‘vomit’ your anger? Not a good look, I’m afraid (Buddhist or not). :)

  39. Linda,
    Do you read only Propaganda by CTA? I am Tibetan from India and I am 55. Whatever happened before, I experienced it . I am telling the truth from the point of view of insiders. Believer or not, one day you will realize and regret helping CTA ad Dalai Lama victimizing the innocents Shugden followers in India.

  40. Grateful Kadampa I am sorry. I am not feeling well and wrote all this stuff. I regret it now, but cannot erase it. Looking back on what I wrote, I am ashamed. I went way over the line, sorry.

  41. Trolls…

    It amazes me to read how you reply to the people that are experiencing the ban first hand: “Stop your attachment to this deity and get a real spiritual path”. You are really nice, wow, how compassionate. Yeah, lets just think the Gurus were all wrong and I know better, thats a real path to enlightenment taught by the Dalai Lama. OH WAIT! that video with him saying that is also a lie from the NKT.

    REFUTE THIS: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/downloads/texts/download-music-delighting-the-ocean-of-protectors/

  42. Ooooer – I see the KelsangBots have dispateched a coterie to deal with “anonymous”. Well this particular “anonymous” doesn’t regret anything said. The only people that end up regretting anything are those NKT “protesters” who eventually realise the folly of their actions. I haven’t heard of anyone from the DL side of the fence defecting to become a Shugdenbot!

    OH WAIT Max! I have seen the video and HHDL does NOT say all his teachers were wrong about EVERYTHING. Just that they were wrong about Shugden practice. Ha ha ha – yet ANOTHER KelsangBot example of how NKT totally TWISTS AND DISTORTS THE TRUTH to fit in with their warped perspective.

    Furthermore, being compassionate doesn’t necessarily mean having to agree with someone. Sometimes the true compassionate thing is say something to shake them out of their complacent wrong view. Surely that’s what you are all claiming about your actions towards HHDL – you are all trying to save him from his negative karma aren’t you? By shouting at him that he’s a “Liar” and “worst dictator of modern times”. Wow! How compassionate you are. Especially with regard to not offending the MILLIONS of Tibetans and others who love him and see Dalai Lama as their teacher. I mean, calling him those names and accusing him of those hateful things – don’t you think that might be REALLY REALLY HURTFUL to the millions who LOVE the Dalai Lama? But no, of course not. What you are doing is “pure” compassionate action isn’t it? Trying to save them from the DL. Well ditto me – I am trying to save you from hell, which is where people end up who worship demons, and who wilfully slander and libel a holy being. :-)

    But hey, waste of time bothering with you folks – it’s like throwing pearls to swine. Cheerio to you KelsangBots and ShugdenBots. Yeah you’re all absolutely right. Spot on. Right about everything. You cannot make mistakes. Impossible. Kelsang Gyatso said it himself. If you practice Shugden “you always make the right decisions”. Sounds like a recipe for a mob of out-of-control egos. Good luck to you all. You’re right. Yes – absolutely.

    All my love, deepest sympathy and compassion to you. Hey ho, hey ho….it’s off to hell you go…. ;-)

  43. Oh and Grateful Kadampa – you are certainly adept at the skills of projection – ie pot calling the kettle black YET AGAIN. If it weren’t for the aggressive attacks you people make on the Dalai Lama and aggressive personal character attacks on friends of mine ie Carol – “mentally ill”, Siling – a sexual deviant, Robert Helms for something minor you dredged up – I WOULD NOT BE COMMENTING HERE AT ALL.

    So I repeat, don’t come over all righteous to me. You bunch of utter hypocrites.

  44. This is not about the NKT, it is about the religious freedom of countless Dorje Shugden practitioners across the world. Please don’t mix the issue.

  45. Truth Seeker – please don’t tell me things that are untrue and then try to get me to behave according to the falsities you propound. The NKT and the Dorje Shugden issue are inextricably mixed. It is the NKT who are chiefly behind the angry, nasty, libellous “protests” against the Dalai Lama. If it weren’t for Kelsang Gyatso and NKT’s determination to villify the Dalai Lama and create a massive issue about Shugden worship, when even the Shugden lamas asked him not to make such a contentiously visible issue about it, I would not be here making comments at all. The NKT are projecting all the faults of their own religious dictator, their internal culture of bullying and deceit, poor moral discipline etc etc onto His Holiness the Dalai Lama. People like me who are ex-NKT can see this is the case and that is why we got involved. So please, at least make an effort to live up to your name and don’t try to shut people up who are revealing the truth about this anti-Dalai Lama hate campaign, who is behind it and why.

  46. Oh and Max – I am not going to wade through that book. However, I have seen quotes from it which tell of how Dolgyal smites and brings ruin, disease and death to anyone who does not follow the Gelug tradition “purely” , because they take teachings from other schools of Buddhism, like Nyingma. I have seen quotes from Pabongka too where he says that all other paths, other than Gelug are “faulty”, incorrect and to be avoided. So as far as I’m concerned this book, along with the famous “Yellow Book”, only go to prove that Shugden practice is indeed a sectarian, divisive practice causing the degeneration of the tradition of openess and tolerance that Buddhism was once famous for, before the actions of you people began to destroy its good reputation. Nowadays, thanks to the NKT and ISC, a lot of people think of Buddhism as no different from any other religion that demands blind faith in some deity and is full of rabid fanatics.

  47. Truth-Seeker, regarding your comment “it is about the religious freedom of countless Dorje Shugden practitioners across the world”. How precisely does the Dalai Lama’s supposed “ban” on Dorje Shugden affect the religious freedom of “countless Shugden practitioners ACROSS THE WORLD.”? Across the world? So now your preposterous claim has extended to the Dalai Lama having power to “ban” Shugden “across the world”. If this were true, how is it that Shugden is freely practiced by anyone who wants to, in the UK, United States, Malaysia, Switzerland, France, Italy ….basically ANY WHERE THEY WANT T? Even in TIBET. Even in CHINA. Even in India. Yes, I’ve seen the pictures of the beautiful Shugden monasteries currently thiriving IN INDIA.

    Dear Reader, please take note, of yet another example of the way Shugden/ISC/NKT followers make totally fraudulent, exaggerated claims about the power and significance of the Dalai Lama saying he disapproves of Shugden practice, because it is HARMFUL: Harmful to practitioners themselves, harmful to their relationships with friends, family, fellow Buddhists, harmful to the cause of a free Tibet and harmful to his own life. But if you all want to ignore his advice – FINE, YOU ARE ALL FREE TO DO SO.

    Just get on with your Shugden practice “across the world”! You are free to do it! But PLEASE leave the rest of us alone who aren’t interested in your bovine excrement and victim/[persecution complex. Stop sending us your pro-Shugden books, emails, letters etc and stop your disgraceful, hateful “protests”. Meanwhile, I suggest you seek psychiatric help for your Transpersonal Identity Disorder. Treatments are available.

  48. Max et al, here’s a quote from Pabongka about the violent sectarian nature and function of Shugden:

    As Pabongkha says,
    “[This protector of the doctrine] is extremely important for holding Dzong-ka-ba’s tradition without mixing and corrupting [it] with confusions due to THE GREAT VIOLENCE AND SPEED OF HIS ACTIONS which fall like lightning TO PUNISH VIOLENTLY all those beings who have wronged the Yellow Hat Tradition, whether they are high or low.[This protector is also particularly significant with respect to the fact that] many from our own side, monks or lay people, high or low, are not content with Dzong-ka-ba’s tradition, which is like pure gold, [and] have mixed and corrupted [this tradition with ] the mistaken views and practices from other schools, which are tenet systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly fast but are [in reality] mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths. In regard to this situation, this protector of the doctrine, this witness, manifests his own form or a variety of unbearable manifestations of terrifying and frightening wrathful and fierce appearances. Due to that, a variety of events, some of them having happened or happening, some of which have been heard or seen, seem to have taken place: some people become unhinged and mad, some have a heart attack and suddenly die, some [see] through a variety of inauspicious signs [their] wealth, accumulated possessions and descendants disappear without leaving any trace, like a pond whose feeding river has ceased, whereas some [find it] difficult to achieve anything in successive lifetimes.”

    It’s amazing that you people seriously believe that Manjushri would emanate as a harmful spirit like this that SEEKS VIOLENT RETRIBUTION and kills people who choose to take teachings from other valid Buddhist traditions. Really?

    And you people falsely make claims like it is a “peaceful” practice, “like the Lord’s Prayer”. I’ve heard some of you likening worship of Shugden to veneration of St. Francis or the Virgin Mary. Again, an example of NKT/ISC misrepresentation and distortion of historical, factual evidence. I don’t think anyone would offer praises to St.Francis or the Virgin Mary if, like Shugden, they were known to cause “some people(to) become unhinged and mad, some have a heart attack and suddenly die, some [see] through a variety of inauspicious signs [their] wealth, accumulated possessions and descendants disappear without leaving any trace, like a pond whose feeding river has ceased, whereas some [find it] difficult to achieve anything in successive lifetimes”.

    Really – it is no wonder that His Holiness feels it is his responsibility to warn people against and strongly discourage them from this practice. Like the Anti-Nazi League who considered it their duty to put up a fight against the encroaching Far Right Fascist movement in 1970s UK, the Dalai Lama also has a responsibility to stand up against this form of Far Right, fascist, fundamentalist perversion of Tibetan Buddhism.

  49. While the Dalai Lama enjoys a luxurious life for himself, making huge amounts of money through using Buddha’s teachings, he causes millions of people to suffer by creating division between them and destroying their harmony and peaceful life. Because of their blind faith or extreme religious views people believe the Dalai Lama’s harmful words without investigation, and sincerely follow his misleading guidance. As a result non-Shugden practitioners have become extremely angry with Shugden practitioners. They have forcefully expelled Shugden practitioners from Tibetan society, using public humiliation, provocation, intimidation and threats, including dismissing them from their jobs, refusing them basic services and publicly spreading lies about them.

    The Dalai Lama is an ordained Buddhist monk. Buddha said that ordained people should never harm a single living being or cause anyone suffering, but the Dalai Lama has harmed and is continuing to harm millions of innocent people by causing them completely unnecessary suffering, fear and danger. He is acting in direct contradiction to Buddha’s teachings and is publicly showing great disrespect to Buddha and Buddhism. In one month alone, February 2008, he expelled 900 innocent Shugden monks from the Tibetan community. All of these monks were very poor, and they lost everything, including care and support for their daily lives received from their relatives, friends and community. They had no idea where they should go or who would support and help them, finding themselves refugees for a second time.

    In truth this kind of suffering pervades Tibetan communities throughout the world, and only the Dalai Lama himself has the power to solve this problem. Through checking carefully and honestly everybody can understand that the actions of this false Dalai Lama go directly against the law of basic human rights.

    To liberate millions of innocent people from this endless suffering we request everyone throughout the world, including world leaders, to ask the Dalai Lama to accept the following four points:

    1. To allow anyone who wishes to practice Dorje Shugden the freedom to do so.
    2. To stop completely the discrimination against Shugden practitioners.
    3. To allow all Shugden monks and nuns who have been expelled to return to their monasteries and nunneries, and to receive the same material and spiritual rights as non-Shugden practitioners.
    4. To write to Tibetan communities throughout the world telling them that they should apply practically the above three points.

    No one is asking the Dalai Lama to change his own personal view of Shugden. No one is asking non-Shugden practitioners to accept Shugden as a practice. All that is asked is that the Dalai Lama allow religious freedom [without discrimination]. Basic human rights.

    A simple e-mail could solve this 20+ year old problem of suffering and discrimination. The demonstrations would completely stop and this controversy would finally end. The 14th Dalai Lama could then have completed the work of the Great 5th Dalai Lama.

    A ‘simple Buddhist monk’ would consider this an acceptable solution in order to help his own people, and his own reputation from [continually] degenerating.

  50. Anonymous + Linda: I have a hypothetical question for you both – If you knew someone in your community was a Dorje Shugden practitioner would you avoid them or try to tell others they were ‘evil’ or a ‘devil worshipper’ – that they were ‘going to hell’.

    To take this a bit further, if you were in the position of hiring someone, or accepting someone into higher education (if that was your job) in the US or UK, would you instead believe that person wasn’t an acceptable candidate due to their religious views?

    How about if you knew (or believed) they were NKT? Would you walk up to them on the street or outside their local NKT Center and hand them a leaflet telling them how they had taken a ‘wrong path’ and here is some information to get you ‘back on track’.

    Honestly, your comments here seem similar to the Westboro Baptist Church (with regard to discrimination / intolerance tactics)! Most people in the West do not accept the extreme view of a few.

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.…Instead of turning away people who practise Dorje Shugden, we should be kind to them. Give them logic and wisdom without fear, then in time they give up the ‘wrong’ practice. Actually Shugden practitioners are not doing anything wrong. But hypothetically, if they are, wouldn’t it be more Buddhistic to be accepting? So those who have views against Dorje Shugden should contemplate this. Those practicing Dorje Shugden should forbear with extreme patience, fortitude and keep your commitments. The time will come as predicted that Dorje Shugden’s practice and it’s terrific quick benefits will be embraced by the world and it will be a practice of many beings.

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