Dalai Lama speaks about Dorje Shugden at Kalachakra, Washington DC (July 11, 2011)

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  1. There are questions. Those who practice Shugden may not go near Dalai Lama’s teachings. But what about those who do not agree or are not even Buddhist at all. But they are allowed to join in to observe, watch, maybe just listen and not believe. How come everyone else is allowed to join except Dorje Shugden practitioners.

    In the US and many other free countries in the world, there are many religions, variations of religions and even modern day witches/druids who do worship elemental spirits. They are allowed to the teachings. Why? Why is it out of everyone that are on this planet Dorje Shugden is the ‘worst’ ‘spirit’ of all? Why is he prejudiced or targeted the most. Why are his practitioners so heavily discriminated everywhere by Dalai Lama and now in free America also? Why do Americans ‘allow’ it?

    Why can’t all those who practice Shugden, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Satanism, atheists, Druids, Shinto, Bon, Taoists, etc, etc all join in for Dalai Lama’s talks. Why can’t there be universal tolerance, love and acceptance of all faiths by Dalai Lama? Even if hypothetically Shugden worship is so bad, is it not all the more important to include them in the talks to ‘educate’ them by showing compassion,love and knowledge so maybe they will give up eventually? Ostracizing them by Dalai Lama, the man of peace and tolerance does not seem right at all. Doesn’t seem that of a religious leader for the 21st Century of tolerance and acceptance. I do not wish to criticize Dalai Lama in any form, but voicing my views only. I do apologize if it seems harsh.

  2. Dear friend: I guess you are familiarized also with Christian Church. Then imagine now after so many years they discover a biography of one saint that shows it is not so. Then church investigates, some still they don’t agree the is correct, but most of them start to see that is right, specially those really experts. So, the Pope has to really advise not to worship anymore. It is really simple, not so much to think about. We would accept. That’s it. Here it seems the same.
    In case of this subject what you mention my line of reasoning is like this: anyone who goes to meet His Holiness if the relationship is neutral or positive then the relationship can be established, stronger or weaker, but if you are against Him, what is the purpose of establish such relationship, in fact you don’t want as you not follow His advise, for Him an important advise in order to protect others from harm. If it is like that then if you know about Buddhism and special this contextual situation then you can do whatever you want, but don’t expect having that initiation or whatever dharma relationship needs to be established from both sides. So I think without following the teacher advise, then your side is not complete, so I think HH is showing the way to do it, first you follow advise because you value the teacher, then there is room for that, otherwise He cannot also establish this with you, impossible. This is my thought, has to be both.
    Another thing I would ask is why you put in the webpage lamas that are not doing any more the practice. Some of them never practiced even, only past lives, but never this life. Thanks.

    • Dear John,

      1. People who have never practiced, it’s easy not to start. No problems there.

      2. People who are older than His Holiness Dalai Lama, or have received the practice from another root teacher, then there’s the conflict. They have been practicing for over 30-40 years and they have sworn to their lama they will practice till the end. Should they give up the practice because the Dalai Lama says so? They are practicing because they have faith in their teachers. They respect their teachers. Why does Dalai Lama’s spiritual advice override their own personal teachers? Status and rank should not be the criteria for spiritual authority alone.
      Then what about the teachers and students of other sects? Do they all have to practice and follow the Dalai Lama’s practices although they have their own? His Holiness is a great teacher but not the only teacher. There were and are many great teachers still.
      Dalai Lama does not need to repeat over and over again we do not need to go see him or participate in his events. We do not need to participate in his events. So if he’s repeating, then he is using his popularity/celebrity-hood to perhaps coerce people into not practicing what he sees as a mistake. He does not have to repeat about the ban over and over again in his sermons. There are much bigger issues to talk about.

      3. If the Dalai Lama says re the disbenefits of Shugden once and purely as an advice then let all make up their own minds, that is fine. But he had the Tibetan Constitution in exile amended to say those who practice Shugden should not participate in mainstream Tibetan lives/activites/institutions eg. hospitals, employment, schools etc. In fact the monasteries have been split and separated because of this. Monks who wish to practice are not issued their travelling papers. Tibetans who practice are ostracized and made to be separate from other Tibetans who don’t practice. This is not a simple spiritual advice, but it has become a religious ban.
      http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8157

      4. The 5th Dalai Lama composed prayers to Shugden and build chapels that still exist. Since the fourteen Dalai Lamas are in one reincarnated mindstream, then how can one build and the other destroy. The Dalai Lama’s personal teachers, debate partners, assistant lamas from Tibet practiced Shugden. Are they all wrong?
      http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=341

      5. Great teachers that practice Shugden have reincarnated back. Their reincarnations identified by Dalai Lama himself. If they are worshipping spirits their whole lives, then their refuge commitments broken and they cannot obtain a good rebirth by logic. The fact they are back shows clearly this practice is not harmful. The fact they are back shows their practice was pure and correct.

      6. Dalai lama consulted the Shugden oracle via his teacher Trijang Rinpoche. It was Shugden who advised him to leave Tibet immediately during the hostile invasion in 1959. It is the kindness of Shugden, Dalai Lama was not killed and escaped in a timely manner. See this video clearly:
      http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1239

      7. All the great lamas, tulkus, abbots, masters, sangha have been worshipping Shugden in Gaden, Sera and Drepung for 350 years now. Suddenly everyone is wrong? Doesn’t make sense. Many are still practicing and in secret.

      8. His Holiness the previous Panchen Lama who is considered an emanation of Amitabha practiced Shugden. In his Monastery of Tashilunpo a large Shugden Chapel has been erected. Pujas go on everyday in Tashilunpo to Shugden. Is Panchen Rinpoche also wrong? His whole Monastery of thousands of monks worship.
      http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=220

      9. If Dalai Lama investigates that Shugden is suddenly a spirit, then how he can be the only right one and all other lamas are wrong. If Dalai Lama can say his teachers are wrong, then what is to stop people from saying Dalai Lama is wrong? Dalai Lama’s disciples can also turn around and say he is wrong. Dalai Lama set the precedence. This is not Tibet. One person does not rule. It has to be democratic. Anyone can practice any religion/god/deity/supreme being they wish and no one has the right to condemn or they can be held in court for infringement of rights. If the Dalai Lama wishes to make his presence known in the US, Europe and Asia, then he must also abide by the rules, laws and freedoms that govern those countries.
      http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1478

      Your Holiness is also worshipping and propitiating ‘spirits’ for advice in form of the Nechung Oracle. Please investigate:
      http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2022
      http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3934

      We have nothing against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. We bear no ill will nor disrespect. But we would like him to stop infringing on our universal rights to worship as we like without him condemning our form of chosen worship. Please stop condemning. It hurts people. It creates confusion. He loses alot of prestige also. Before his ban on Shugden, there was no problems with the practice.
      We will continue to practice and in fact the practice is growing tremendously in many parts of Tibet and outside of Tibet.
      The pictures of the lamas we have included in our webpage are of Lamas who practice. We have clear and precise information on this no matter what their representatives inform the public. You see it’s religious ‘suicide’ to practice Shugden openly because of the unfair ban. Remember, if these lamas gave up their practice, that would mean they are not very attained or reliable. They can make mistakes in Dharma and practice. How can that be? Then that would disqualify them as reliable teachers perhaps also. So we should not follow them. The lamas included have practiced most of their lives for sure and continue to practice. The sheer number of teachers that practice should show you how prevalent the Shugden practice is and how Shugden was trusted and practiced by so many great lamas. How can Shugden be harmful. Should the ideas, practice and lineage of only one Dalai Lama be the rule for everyone. I think not, as we need variety. Different methods, different lineages, different teachers and different deities.
      I leave you with this quote from the root teacher of the 14th Dalai Lama for 30 years:
      • ” But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas’ deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future.”

      - Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche’s advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967
      • “Even these days, some suspect those who rely upon and propitiate Gyalchen (Dorje Shugden) of conjuring ghosts, but it is the babbling talk of those who don’t understand the definitive meaning.”

      - Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang Losang Yeshe, Symphony Delighting an Ocean of Conquerers, 1967

      We hope we have helped you with our reply. Thank you.
      Admin

  3. “Please stop condemning. It hurts people. It creates confusion. He loses alot of prestige also.”

    As long as it brings Dorje Shugden to the headlines…

  4. His Holiness should advise or talk about more and more specially when he is going to give initiations and vows which will draw awareness to many. Its neither good for the giver nor for the receivers. I am hearing that some people are attending his teachings which is quite ok but not for the vows and initiations.. Please Keep talking and advising which give light to darkness of ignorance …
    May His Holiness bless everyone, specially be able to help the most needy ones…
    Long Live His Holiness Dalai Lama,The King of Gods..

  5. Pabongka Rinpoche, and Trijang Rinpoche cannot be wrong if they are then the entire Gelug tradition is put into question.

    This doubt will consume us all. Its either u pick 1 or 0 , I choose to pick that the greatest lamas within the gelug order cannot be wrong.

  6. Thanks for broadcasting this video although you might uploaded with bad motivation yet positively it enables many to see him and listen to his advices… When His Holiness Dalai Lama was invited in Taiwan, All the Tibetans in Tibet except some were enjoyed so much about seeing His Holiness on Chinese TV although, Chinese communist were condemning, false accusations of propaganda but these false propaganda won’t change the heart of Tibetans who have real faith and consideration Him as Living Buddha of Compassion.. There are possibilities of some wrong actions with our great master since they are not enlightenment as His Holiness Dalai lama.. As Long as one is not Buddha, there is always chances of some mistakes.. Monlam Logpay Gyalwae Tenpa la, Khorwae Nagchog Sugchen Sugmed De, Somjor Ngenpay Jugpa Maluepa, Chogsum Dhenpae Tsenay Chod-gyurchig x 108. Dhamen Dha-tsen Drag-pa Gyal-tsen Shey, Mon-lam Log-pae Dham-si Jung-po De, Ten Dang Dro-wa Kun-la Tse-Je-na, Gon-khyab Pun-Nyen Ma-zod Thal-war-Log X108 composed by Fifth Dalai Lama… Om Mani Pad-me Hung HriX 108 …. Buddhas Bless Us ALL…

  7. The Dalai Lama has made destroying the practice of Dorje Shugden his life’s work. He’s not going to stop now.

  8. I was there. i thought it was very simple. If you want to Dalai lama as a tantra Guru follow his advice and his requests. If you want to follow someone else….fine. If you follow both then you are breaking the samaya of both. That’s what he said. Simple.

  9. Dean,

    This is the problem. Hundreds of thousands recieved this practice BEFORE Dalai Lama banned Shugden. That is the dilemma. He is asking people to choose. And if they don’t choose Dalai Lama, they are ostracized and a
    ‘Chinese agent’ against Tibet. Since they are forced to choose, either way they break samaya.

    Mana

  10. China’s ‘fear’ of Dalai Lama is minimal next to none.

    Since the Dalai Lama’s self exile from Tibet (China) 50 years ago, he has made Tibetan Buddhism grow in the world, but for Tibet’s freedom and independence, nothing.

    The Dalai Lama has no armies, no vast reserve of money, no recognizable product that the world wants (watches, cars, etc), has produced no world figures (Doctors, actors, scientists, or ppl of influence), and is backed up by Democratic govts from a safe distance. Meeting Obama and world leaders does nothing for Tibet, nor does it ultimately hurt China.

    This Washington post and it’s headlines are just products of the American people’s psyche of fear toward some other nation taking world dominance in this century. Their fears are expressed through the Dalai Lama. What does the Dalai Lama and America have in common? Nothing? What does China and US have in common? Everything. Trade, commerce, business, population, armies, and so on.

    The Washington Post is just ‘screaming’ American fears and perhaps sometimes their ignorance. No one can stay on top forever for better or worse.

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.…Instead of turning away people who practise Dorje Shugden, we should be kind to them. Give them logic and wisdom without fear, then in time they give up the ‘wrong’ practice. Actually Shugden practitioners are not doing anything wrong. But hypothetically, if they are, wouldn’t it be more Buddhistic to be accepting? So those who have views against Dorje Shugden should contemplate this. Those practicing Dorje Shugden should forbear with extreme patience, fortitude and keep your commitments. The time will come as predicted that Dorje Shugden’s practice and it’s terrific quick benefits will be embraced by the world and it will be a practice of many beings.

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