Author Topic: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society  (Read 50230 times)

Big Uncle

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2010, 07:02:58 PM »
Well, one view is His Holiness is destroying his own reputation due to his samsaric actions. Another view is that he is doing this for another reason. He is doing this to make Dorje Shugden even bigger. Why? Dorje Shugden can benefit many, many, many beings in the future. He is clearing the karma for it.

You see when Yamantaka Tantras was brought to Tibet, it was ridiculed and made fun off. Nobody wanted to practice it because they just didn't think it was a Buddhist practice. Today, it is a mainstream higher Tantric Practice. Likewise, Dorje Shugden appear to be just a worldly spirit but it will one day become a mainstream Dharma Protector.

Lineageholder

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2010, 08:39:46 PM »
Well, one view is His Holiness is destroying his own reputation due to his samsaric actions. Another view is that he is doing this for another reason. He is doing this to make Dorje Shugden even bigger. Why? Dorje Shugden can benefit many, many, many beings in the future. He is clearing the karma for it.

In case you hadn't noticed, His Ordinariness' only goal is the destruction of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition for his greater glory.  He wants to unite all schools of Buddhism together and finish the job that was thwarted by the 13 Tibetan settlements.  With no 16th Karmapa in the way to stop him, he thinks he can succeed.  It looks like, with few exceptions, it's working including you guys who are prepared to make any number of excuses for his destructive actions and undermine the work of those who would oppose him.

Your pure view is misplaced and destructive.  Self-deception is the worst deception.

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Dorje Shugden appear to be just a worldly spirit

To whom? He looks like a Buddha to me.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 08:43:41 PM by Lineageholder »

Vajraprotector

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2010, 05:20:55 PM »
In case you hadn't noticed, His Ordinariness' only goal is the destruction of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition for his greater glory.  He wants to unite all schools of Buddhism together and finish the job that was thwarted by the 13 Tibetan settlements.  With no 16th Karmapa in the way to stop him, he thinks he can succeed.  It looks like, with few exceptions, it's working including you guys who are prepared to make any number of excuses for his destructive actions and undermine the work of those who would oppose him.

1. Dalai Lama is getting old, and with so many people saying bad things and opposing him, I think HE KNOWS that he will not succeed in uniting all schools of Buddhism together. Even if he does, he cannot be the spiritual leader forever.

2. Globally, many high lamas have started their own centres and promote their own lineages far and wide. I am sorry I don't know many, but I think NKT is doing fine with their own tradition of 1100 centres, FPMT also. Shambhala as well. They have their own lineages and tradition and centres to uphold and will not fit in the “uniting” all schools.

3. Dalai Lama has spoken about his successor  - the Karmapa. So perhaps his wanting to unite all schools of Buddhism within the Tibetan community has other reasons beside him wanting to be the spiritual head? May be it  would ease transition to the new “god-king” Karmapa who’s from another sect?  May be there’s a reason why the 16th Karmapa did not become the spiritual leader of the Tibetan community and the 17th Karmapa would instead?

At the meeting of Tibetan exiles in November, at least five of 15 working groups listed the Karmapa as a suitable candidate to lead the community in the future. He was mentioned by the prime minister of the Tibetan government-in-exile as a potential leader, and also by the Dalai Lama, who named him among several monks who might emerge to lead the movement.  Karmapa is a tulku, or reincarnation, currently recognized by both the Chinese and the Dalai Lama. So he will be a spiritual leader who will be accepted by the Tibetan and the Chinese.

I think as students of the Dharma, we need to look at things not just how they appear to us or on the surface. I am so sorry to say this, but Tibet losing its country has caused Tibetan Buddhism to spread in the world. Of course the destruction of Tibet is very bad, but it has some positive results - Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama and many high lamas are now teaching worldwide instead of to a selected few in monastic institutions.
So why not be positive and see that Dalai Lama’s ‘destructive’ actions could also bring about positive results which could be the flourishing of Dorje Shugden practice & Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition?

If you do not have faith in the “fake Dalai Lama” whom you called ‘His Ordinariness', have faith in the Dharma protector whom you believe is a Buddha. Do you think he will let Tsongkhapa’s tradition and Dharma teachings degenerate? 

DharmaDefender

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2010, 05:34:35 PM »
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1. Dalai Lama is getting old, and with so many people saying bad things and opposing him, I think HE KNOWS that he will not succeed in uniting all schools of Buddhism together. Even if he does, he cannot be the spiritual leader forever.

Which is why I doubt that's his main aim. He's so old already and it's plainly obvious Tibet won't get its independence in his lifetime so even if he does manage to unite the four schools, he won't be around to enjoy the benefits in Tibet. That, and the WSS book shows that Dalai Lamas don't necessarily follow the policies of their predecessors so even if the 14th Dalai Lama does succeed in uniting the four schools of Buddhism, who's to say the 15th Dalai Lama will fight to keep them united?

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2. Globally, many high lamas have started their own centres and promote their own lineages far and wide. I am sorry I don't know many, but I think NKT is doing fine with their own tradition of 1100 centres, FPMT also. Shambhala as well. They have their own lineages and tradition and centres to uphold and will not fit in the “uniting” all schools.

Actually, I wouldn't necessarily say that FPMT were doing fine. They might have a huge number of centres but their founder's reincarnation, Lama Osel, gave up his Buddhist studies just like all the FPMT centres gave up Dorje Shugden. What does that tell you about their broken guru samaya?

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If you do not have faith in the “fake Dalai Lama” whom you called ‘His Ordinariness', have faith in the Dharma protector whom you believe is a Buddha. Do you think he will let Tsongkhapa’s tradition and Dharma teachings degenerate?

Well said! If the Dalai Lama's supposedly generating so much negative karma as a result of this ban, why isn't Dorje Shugden, out of his great compassion, stopping him? How come Dorje Shugden isn't stopping what many people claim as misinformation from Nechung?

Mohani

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2010, 06:22:28 PM »
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If you do not have faith in the “fake Dalai Lama” whom you called ‘His Ordinariness', have faith in the Dharma protector whom you believe is a Buddha. Do you think he will let Tsongkhapa’s tradition and Dharma teachings degenerate?

Well said! If the Dalai Lama's supposedly generating so much negative karma as a result of this ban, why isn't Dorje Shugden, out of his great compassion, stopping him? How come Dorje Shugden isn't stopping what many people claim as misinformation from Nechung?

Dear DharmaDefender
I would say Dorje Shugden is working to stop him, through the actions of the WSS. Just a thought.

Lineageholder

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2010, 07:58:35 PM »
Well said! If the Dalai Lama's supposedly generating so much negative karma as a result of this ban, why isn't Dorje Shugden, out of his great compassion, stopping him? How come Dorje Shugden isn't stopping what many people claim as misinformation from Nechung?

Ahem...what do you think 'A Great Deception' is, chopped liver? ;D  Dorje Shugden IS stopping the Dalai Lama through the actions of the WSS, as Mohani said.

I see the book as a manifestation of Dorje Shugden's wisdom that's trying to open the eyes of a world that has them tightly shut and that bestows awards on the Dalai Lama because of his deceptiveness and their confusion.  The book is telling a truth that you don't want to accept - that the Dalai Lama is a fake and he's nothing more than a corrupt politician who is pulling off one of the greatest deceptions ever.  If you don't accept what your Protector is saying, who are you going to believe?  Why would the WSS publish this book, which contains much documentary evidence from many sources if it wasn't true?  They would be ridiculed if there was no evidence for what they are saying, but there's a lot.

Lineageholder

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2010, 08:06:05 PM »
I am so sorry to say this, but Tibet losing its country has caused Tibetan Buddhism to spread in the world. Of course the destruction of Tibet is very bad, but it has some positive results - Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama and many high lamas are now teaching worldwide instead of to a selected few in monastic institutions.
So why not be positive and see that Dalai Lama’s ‘destructive’ actions could also bring about positive results which could be the flourishing of Dorje Shugden practice & Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition?

I don't believe this is the same kind of situation at all. I am sad that Tibet was invaded and that so much suffering has been experienced by Tibetans, but in terms of the Dharma it was a good thing, as you say.  I'm sorry to say this, but the loss of Tibet as an independent country does not affect the Dharma, but the loss of Dorje Shugden as the protector of the Ganden tradition certainly does.  Therefore, although the destruction of Tibet has had good results spiritually for the world, the Dalai Lama's vendetta against Dorje Shugden and his attempts to destroy the tradition of reliance upon him never will.


If you do not have faith in the “fake Dalai Lama” whom you called ‘His Ordinariness', have faith in the Dharma protector whom you believe is a Buddha. Do you think he will let Tsongkhapa’s tradition and Dharma teachings degenerate? 

No, he won't but he needs us to act to stop the Dalai Lama.  Dorje Shugden and the WSS are working together to accomplish this goal.

Buddhas can't act independent of sentient beings; it's a dependent relationship.  If it's not, I can just sit back and let Buddha enlighten me without me having to apply any effort from my side to create the causes.  If I think this, it's a wrong view.  Similarly, those who think that Dorje Shugden practitioners can just sit back and do nothing and Dorje Shugden will save Je Tsongkhapa's tradition are holding a similar wrong view imho.

From one point of view i'm actually very grateful to the Dalai Lama for giving me the opportunity to create some amazing karma through my efforts of protect Je Tsongkhapa's Dharma.  That's really incredible merit, if you think about it.  However, in my heart of hearts, I do wish this situation didn't exist and that peace and harmony ruled in the Buddhist community.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 08:14:34 PM by Lineageholder »

harrynephew

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2010, 10:31:02 PM »
i find this book kind of shocking. news and information which you've never ever heard before. it is kind of bewildering at times to know how much effort is put into putting down one party in order to get the message across to another.

still need time to digest.
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emptymountains

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2010, 10:55:04 PM »
Just imagine if we had this book back in 1996...

DharmaDefender

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2010, 06:06:57 PM »
Well said! If the Dalai Lama's supposedly generating so much negative karma as a result of this ban, why isn't Dorje Shugden, out of his great compassion, stopping him? How come Dorje Shugden isn't stopping what many people claim as misinformation from Nechung?

Ahem...what do you think 'A Great Deception' is, chopped liver? ;D  Dorje Shugden IS stopping the Dalai Lama through the actions of the WSS, as Mohani said.

I see the book as a manifestation of Dorje Shugden's wisdom that's trying to open the eyes of a world that has them tightly shut and that bestows awards on the Dalai Lama because of his deceptiveness and their confusion.  The book is telling a truth that you don't want to accept - that the Dalai Lama is a fake and he's nothing more than a corrupt politician who is pulling off one of the greatest deceptions ever.  If you don't accept what your Protector is saying, who are you going to believe?  Why would the WSS publish this book, which contains much documentary evidence from many sources if it wasn't true?  They would be ridiculed if there was no evidence for what they are saying, but there's a lot.

I don't see it as that because never once has Dorje Shugden ever spoken out against any high lama. In fact, even after the monasteries tried to kill him, when he manifested the next day via the oracle, he requested everyone to respect the Dalai Lama.

So are you saying that Dorje Shugden is two-faced, manifesting such a book whilst telling people they should respect the Dalai Lama???

I think the WSS published the book to destroy the Dalai Lama's reputation, not educate people about Dorje Shugden. I'm not saying the documented evidence isn't true - I believe the chronology to be true and I use it in forums elsewhere to defend our Protector - I'm just saying that the tone of the book leaves a lot to be desired. In school you learn to write about historical facts with objectivity, and allow the facts to persuade the reader - that objectivity is entirely lacking in A Great Deception.

Lineageholder

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2010, 08:38:42 PM »
So are you saying that Dorje Shugden is two-faced, manifesting such a book whilst telling people they should respect the Dalai Lama???

I think the WSS published the book to destroy the Dalai Lama's reputation, not educate people about Dorje Shugden. I'm not saying the documented evidence isn't true - I believe the chronology to be true and I use it in forums elsewhere to defend our Protector - I'm just saying that the tone of the book leaves a lot to be desired. In school you learn to write about historical facts with objectivity, and allow the facts to persuade the reader - that objectivity is entirely lacking in A Great Deception.

We should respect the Dalai Lama just as we respect any sentient being.  Dorje Shugden has not said anything through an oracle, as far as I know, about this issue and I've never heard Dorje Shugden express any opinion about the Dalai Lama, so we don't know what his view is.  We certainly cannot respect what the Dalai Lama is doing.

It's no good educating people about Dorje Shugden because most people simply believe what the Dalai Lama says, they don't want to hear that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha because they think he's a demon.  The Dalai Lama has powerful speech and a good reputation.  Most people have a high opinion of him and this is working against Shugden practitioners because, these days, many people lack the ability to analyse and come to logical conclusions - they just tend to align themselves with the person they have the highest opinion of, and generally that's the most famous person.

So, what to do?  There's no alternative but to reduce the power of the Dalai Lama's speech by pointing out that he's being deceptive and is not what he appears to be.  This, if it is believed, will 'wake people up' so that they aren't simply blindly believing what he says.  I don't believe there's any other way to gain ground against the Dalai Lama, who's got an enormous head start in terms of public credibility. The only way is to destroy that credibility.  The WSS is not saying anything that's not true.  They are quoting from books, magazines and articles by many diverse authors.  In reality, the Dalai Lama has destroyed his own reputation through his non-virtuous actions, but people are mesmerised by his public persona and don't see his deceptiveness.  All that WSS is doing is making it clear for everyone to see.  It's not a pretty picture, but it's a true one. 

The language is, at times, emotive and that might be seen to detract from the message but I trust the skill of the people who wrote the book.  I think it will touch those who need to be touched - generally those who aren't obsessively attached to the Dalai Lama and the need to see him as a holy being: in other words, the general public who are not his disciples.

dsnowlion

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2010, 09:16:06 PM »


It is not beyond the bounds of possibility, that it might be the 'wrong' Dalai lama, but that direction would be less skilfull to pursue in order to lift the ban.

It is also not beyond the bounds of possibility that the current Dalai Lama is the real incarnation also. It would be easier to go under that assumption to achieve our goals of lifting the ban.

tk

I TOTALLY AGREE and WOULD PICK NO 2.

If we are to come together as one to voice out on the injustice of what is happening to Shugdenpas... it would be much easier to achieve our goals of LIFTING the ban if we stop slaming the Dalai Lama as a fake.

Whether he is real or not is besides the point. The point is that HH the Dalai Lama is creating religious discrimination outright onto Shugdenpas. That in it self I think (with so many evidence, news, youtubes, docs) carries more weight then saying the Dalai lama is a "fake". Because that is something you cannot really proof, there is no hard evidence except some monk saying so (from the book)

Also not all of Dalai Lama's actions are totally negative. He has build homes, hospitals, schools etc for his people. He has touched many lives as much as you disagree, but he has, there is no doubt about that.
That is what the Tibetans and Dalai Lama followers will say and argue back. More over the concept of the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig - is someone they can never see as ordinary is too well ingrained. There is not one person I know who does not know who is the Dalai Lama. Even though you may think that he is a "fake" - but the concept of HH the Dalai Lama equates with Buddhism & Compassion.To pull that concept out of billions of people's mind is like almost saying Mother Teressa is a "fake" (just an example).

It will be easier to say "Hey look at these facts and videos and what is happening to people of different beliefs opposed by the TGIE, look at what Shugdepas are going through, what the Dalai Lama is saying and allowing to happened, why is the Dalai lama not stopping them???" The world would turn and look at these hard evidense which you can see with your own eyes, and they have and stil watching. That would raise reasonable doubt on whats up with HH Dalai Lama and these TGIE???

We don't have to stood so low like the pro Dalai Lama/anti shugden supporters who have been condemning our protector as "evil spirit" do we???

It's just my contemplation of another perspective of achieving the goal to LIFT/FADE the ban away without blaming put showing hard proofs - that one no can argue. Just spam and advertise all the hard case youtube videos and Dorje Shugden videos to educate people! :)

Put it on facebook etc. This whole thing about whether Dalai lama is real or fake or whatever at the end of the day is just speculations, but those real things that is happening.

dsnowlion

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2010, 09:56:00 PM »
Well, one view is His Holiness is destroying his own reputation due to his samsaric actions. Another view is that he is doing this for another reason. He is doing this to make Dorje Shugden even bigger. Why? Dorje Shugden can benefit many, many, many beings in the future. He is clearing the karma for it.

You see when Yamantaka Tantras was brought to Tibet, it was ridiculed and made fun off. Nobody wanted to practice it because they just didn't think it was a Buddhist practice. Today, it is a mainstream higher Tantric Practice. Likewise, Dorje Shugden appear to be just a worldly spirit but it will one day become a mainstream Dharma Protector.


This is highly possible also!? Yes if Dorje Shugden can say via the Oracle to please be "patient" and do not disrespect the Dalai Lama like what Dharma defender said which I've also heard from a Tibetan friend, then why can't we trust in our protector and think positively that he is perhaps working hand in hand with the Dalai Lama to spread the teaching and getting many many people prepared for his coming???

I am certain HH knows what is happening now, how China will react to his statements and what people will say to what he is doing? I doubt he is so ignorant  to not think of the seriousness of the consequences of what He is doing. If he is such a great deceptive leader to his people and has manage to get away so far, I would think he is a very smart person being able to fool the world! So a man of this kind of intellect would have calculated his risk before opening his mouth on the Ban?

I'm also sure He is well aware that he will not be around for far too long and like what HH himself has said and backed by what Karmapa also said that in future there may not be a need for the Dalai Lama to come back and be the political leader of the Tibetans as times are changing. So my logic says what does the Dalai Lama has to lose besides his reputation???

He puts a Ban on Dorje Shugden and creates havoc to some thousands so that millions can receive the practice in future without obstruction from anyone. At that time China would make Dorje Shugden a mainstream religious practice and by then No TGIE can say anything.  Possible yes I think so. Just another perspective to look at :)

emptymountains

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2010, 01:55:07 AM »
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That in it self I think (with so many evidence, news, youtubes, docs) carries more weight then saying the Dalai lama is a "fake". Because that is something you cannot really proof, there is no hard evidence except some monk saying so (from the book)


There's something wrong with the whole system, which has given rise to this whole problem. It's the system that needs to be changed, and that will fix the problem.

I am not talking about imposing a Western ideals of democracy or anything; I'm talking about Buddhism: If you're wearing robes, you need to get out of politics.

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2010, 04:30:50 PM »
I am not talking about imposing a Western ideals of democracy or anything; I'm talking about Buddhism: If you're wearing robes, you need to get out of politics.

Hear hear!

 :)