Author Topic: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society  (Read 50715 times)

emptymountains

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A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« on: November 02, 2009, 11:38:41 PM »
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/en/agd

288 pages
ISBN 978-0956391803

Although the publication date is 2010, it will actually be released before/after Thanksgiving depending on where you live.

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Q!
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2009, 04:56:49 PM »
Western Shugden Society's new book, "The Great Deception" will seal the Dalai Lama's reputation and it is going to be trampled to dust.

Well, probably not.

Just consider all the bad press the Pope and the Catholic Church has got during the last 500 years. And consider also that the truthfullness of that bad press is denied by no-one, Church included. That bad press is nowadays mainstream history and generally accepted truth. But there the Pope still sits smugly in the grandiose palaces of the Vatican, and the sheep yell "hooray for the Pope, please bless us sinners!" and almost all non-catholic Important People tm still respect and revere the Man and the Institution.

There was a book, named "Rogues in the Robes" if I remember correctly, that was about the Karmapa-controversy. It was written by a student of Lama Ole, thereby supporting HE Shamarpa's position and his candidate for the new Karmapa. The major culprit, or the adversary, therefore was HE Tai Situpa and his actions, but there was also the point that the independence of Karma Kagyu school was at danger due to the collaboration of HE Tai Situpa and HE Dalai Lama. The book also seemed to have this idea that some people are trying to create something like a Unified Tibetan Church tm which was of course opposed by the late HH Karmapa, behind whom the small Nyingma lineages also retreated for the sake of independence, but after HH Karmapa died, things were different, and problems arose, as we all know. No need to repeat all that here. But my point is this: Has this book diminished the respect received by HE Tai Situpa or HE Dalai Lama? Nope. It only hardened the division inside the Karma Kagyu school, and made Shamarpa's side an even "more suitable target" of defamation, ostracization and physical attacks. HE Tai Situpa and HE Dalai Lama are still great, and HE Shamarpa still a villain.

After The Great Deception is published, it will be the same: HE Dalai Lama is still great, and all shugdenites are even more villainous villains. I wholly support a book like that, but I do not expect it to change anything in our times. It will only harden the division. The only good that will come out of it, is that it will challenge the "official truth given from above" and offer an alternate version of what has happened. It will therefore help future generations of shugdenites, and perhaps some future Kagyupas, but for us today, it will make things worse.

Harri
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 05:01:10 PM by Zhalmed Pawo »

Mohani

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2009, 05:18:28 PM »
I just finished reading a copy that a friend gave me. I found it very good. :)
Nice to have this infomation in a book.

LosangKhyentse

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2009, 12:25:39 PM »
Dear Thom,

Please tell us more about the new Dorje Shugden based temple in Utah. Sounds extremely exciting!! :)

I wish it great success. :) Would be great to get updates on this in future as they come out.  :D

Ven Gonsar Rinpoche really shows that his pure dharma commitments are more important than anything in this day and age. He never lost himself. What a great lama with so much against him, he sticks to his principles.

May he live long and grow further. :)

May you live long and continue your work!
 :)

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2009, 02:12:47 PM »
Thom, I agree with you in this: We will not lose this 'battle'.

But I also maintain that neither will HE Dalai Lama lose, either as a person or as an institution. He will not fall.

Consider for instance, that the Fifth Dalai Lama ordered a genocide, including massmurder of women and children. This known historical fact has not tarnished his status as a holy man a bit, or made the institution suspect. An icon is an icon. Just like the Pope is eternally pure, no matter how many heretics were burned alive by his Church. Power of institution is such. People bow to power, and a religious institution is chrystallized power. Tibetans do not dare to stand in opposition to him, and others do not care, or pretend to not know. Dalai will not lose, because people are people.

So, in our issue, while neither party will lose, or win, both will continue as a strong age-old currents of Buddhism, the Dorje Shugden practice, and HE Dalai Lama the hegemonic.

I also predict, that we, our generation, will meet the backlash of the Hegemonic and his cadres of 'cultural revolutionaries'. The backlash will come. It will hurt. Badly.

But for the future generations, things will be easy, because their history is no longer written by the Hegemonic alone, but also our voices are heard. It is a level ground for them. And that is the whole point of doing what we are doing: Giving choices and alternative views to those who come after us. Otherwise they would only hear 'One Voice'. They would follow 'the Ring of Power', without a choice.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 02:22:23 PM by Zhalmed Pawo »

Losang_Tenpa

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2009, 12:47:28 AM »
Can't wait to hear more Thom. What can we do to help? As I have said to you before: I am willing to do whatever I can to assist you in this project.
May the infinite blessings of the Ganden lineage rain down on all who support this project.

 

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2009, 10:32:28 PM »
If the bits and pieces on that other site are really part of the book, then oe oe oe oe...

The text is evidently made by an DL-hater; it totally lacks any journalistic objectivity (not that there has ever been anything like that in truth, but the illusion is important). It does not sound as a work of an objective storyteller, and if that is my perception, you can just imagine how the general reader views the text. It reads as a vitriolic attack upon a greatly respected person, made by an idiot. Sorry, but true. It will not accomplish it's intended purpose.

Upholding Dharma is one thing, but downgrading oneself and others is another. You could have done better, yes?


Vittu pellet, saatana! Saatana!

emptymountains

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2009, 06:29:56 AM »
ZP,

You raise a very valid point. I have been by no means a 'fan' of what the WSS has put out so far. To this day, I put no links to their website from my own. However, after meditating on your post the past couple of days, I did come up with this:

http://dharmaprotector.wordpress.com/2009/11/14/consequentially-speaking-understanding-the-polemics-of-the-western-shugden-society/

theloneranger

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2009, 12:52:21 PM »
I have just the read the new book.  This is ground breaking stuff that will shake the Dalai Lama and it's government to the core.  This new book has been very skillfully put together,  this is a journalists dream! Full of reliable references to follow up. It's just a matter of time..................be patient my dear friends.   I belief thousands and thousands of copies will be sold worldwide, even millions! This really is a great deception!  The truth like you never seen it before. It's a masterpiece!

theloneranger

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2009, 09:32:43 PM »
oh thomas my dearest comrade

nobody can put it quite like you, lol!  :)  you are a legend of the highest order! 




emptymountains

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2009, 03:13:52 PM »

crazycloud

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2009, 06:02:10 PM »
The text is evidently made by an DL-hater; it totally lacks any journalistic objectivity (not that there has ever been anything like that in truth, but the illusion is important). It does not sound as a work of an objective storyteller, and if that is my perception, you can just imagine how the general reader views the text. It reads as a vitriolic attack upon a greatly respected person, made by an idiot. Sorry, but true. It will not accomplish it's intended purpose.

Upholding Dharma is one thing, but downgrading oneself and others is another. You could have done better, yes?

ZP-

I write this not as a rebuttal of your general view, because I have seen the wisdom you represent on these pages, but to challenge only the things you have said in the section I quote, and to present another view to others who read here... I realize this may not be your final view, so please do not take offense....

I understand that strong feelings can arise when this issue is brought up, but I think what you have said is not justified. The text is NOT made by a DL hater, it is written by a DL-lover!

It has been written in consultation with several high DS lamas, I know this as a fact. If your own lama is not involved, then someone he or she has samaya with IS. So if you say it is a DL hater, you say that our lamas can't engage in wrathful action out of compassion. That is non-sense to me. If you see this as ordinary, you will of course have big problems and anxiety. Remember Dagom Rinpoche's words "We are performing a great healing upon the Dalai Lama."

Don't worry what will be the perception of the general reader, in fact there will be no (or very, very few) general readers. This book has a very particular audience, and they will see what they are meant to see. So many people balked at the protests last year, and the language used, but they were very, very effective, in a way that speakng politely in the language of the acadamy would not have been. We tried that, and tried that for years. NO RESULTS. So The protector is acting more directly now, and the results will be very satisfactory. Rest assured, this book WILL accomplish it's intended purpose, it just may be that you don't see what that is yet.

You are right, we will alienate some intellectuals and dabblers and couch-Buddhists. But you are wrong about one thing: the union of politics and religion as embodied in the person of the Dalai Lama or any other ruling tulku IS DOOMED.

So relax, and enjoy. Do not cleave to the apparent.
 
Quote
But for the future generations, things will be easy, because their history is no longer written by the Hegemonic alone, but also our voices are heard. It is a level ground for them. And that is the whole point of doing what we are doing: Giving choices and alternative views to those who come after us. Otherwise they would only hear 'One Voice'. They would follow 'the Ring of Power', without a choice.

Ha ha! It's TRUE!

a friend

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2009, 04:54:06 AM »
Hi Crazycloud,

Just some passing comments.

Quote
I understand that strong feelings can arise when this issue is brought up, but I think what you have said is not justified. The text is NOT made by a DL hater, it is written by a DL-lover!

This is like the case of Caesar's wife, she should not only be honest but look honest. It does not serve any purpose to come here and say that a book with harsh manners comes from a DL's lover. It would've been nice that the book showed that hypothetical love.

Quote
It has been written in consultation with several high DS lamas, I know this as a fact.

Even if this were true, it only would be true to a point. The fact is, Tibetan Lamas follow their disciples in the use of Western language and manners, they are their main source of information about such crucial things. They cannot judge the tone and weight of words from their own knowledge of our languages. Whatever excess is in that book or in any other publication is not the responsibility of those Lamas you mention.

Quote
Don't worry what will be the perception of the general reader, in fact there will be no (or very, very few) general readers. This book has a very particular audience, and they will see what they are meant to see.

And who are the people belonging to this particular audience? Just curious ...

Quote
So many people balked at the protests last year, and the language used, but they were very, very effective, in a way that speakng politely in the language of the acadamy would not have been. We tried that, and tried that for years. NO RESULTS.

They were effective indeed, and continue to be effective. It's quite clear that Dharamsala fears they might resume. Not bulletproof, but still an excellent shield for potential victims of the abuse.


crazycloud

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2009, 06:06:37 PM »
Quote
This is like the case of Caesar's wife, she should not only be honest but look honest. It does not serve any purpose to come here and say that a book with harsh manners comes from a DL's lover. It would've been nice that the book showed that hypothetical love

There is a contradiction in your thinking. Below you praise the demos...why? We protect Shugden practitioners from illegal depredations, we prevent the DL from engaging in terrible bad karma, this is love. The book serves the same function. The Demos seemed very harsh to many, so maybe it is not similar to Ceasar's  wife, because by your logic, we should not engage in such as we should not only be loving, but look loving.... but to many, those protests looked hateful! So which is it? If we need to look nice, we can't protest and the book is not good or helpful. If the long term result of our actions is more important, than we our Lamas can engage in wrothful actions, and there is no fault.

Those who wrote the book have love for all living beings , not just "HH." But just a mother must chastise a child from time to time, sometimes politicians need to hear strong words. No one would say the mother should show love instead of discipling that child, the disipline IS her love. Please understand, this is like that.

As mentioned earlier, we tried nice manners for years, and Cesar's wife continued to be beaten behind closed doors. Don't blame call her rude if she finally must resort to shouting her abuse to any who will hear.....

then we tried actions that appeared harsh, and they are working. Forget being polite, we are going to prevent our lineage from being extinguished by politicians.

Quote
"It has been written in consultation with several high DS lamas, I know this as a fact."

Even if this were true, it only would be true to a point. The fact is, Tibetan Lamas follow their disciples in the use of Western language and manners, they are their main source of information about such crucial things. They cannot judge the tone and weight of words from their own knowledge of our languages. Whatever excess is in that book or in any other publication is not the responsibility of those Lamas you mention.

it IS true, you can trust me on this one.

Our Lamas have been resident in the west for decades, friend. Do you really think that they "cannot judge the tone and weight" of "Hypocrite," "Dictator," "Liar," "Criminal?" It seems you either have a rather low opinion of your Spiritual Guide, which I doubt, or you have a strong wish for harmony that is overcoming your ability to recognize when strong action is required.

The excesses (as you perceive them) are one of the main points of this book. They are expressly created my many high lamas living in US, Europe and India. When their students, (us) said "....but Rinpoche! Surely this is TOO aggresive," they insisted and went ahead, saying we needed more wisdom and faith.

Quote
And who are the people belonging to this particular audience? Just curious ...

You.
me.
Dorje Shugden pratitioners in India and Tibet.
Dalai Lama follwers in India and Tibet.
T.G.I.E.
Samdhong Rinpoche.

The Dalai Lama


a friend

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2009, 09:37:39 PM »
Dear Crazycloud,

I think you mix the meaning of nuances in thought with contradiction.
Like Zhalmed Pawo, I didn't read the book but read the pamphlet produced last year. The serious objections I had about it I still have. They are in this website, buried somewhere, and I don't intend to repeat them here among other things because I know it to be useless. Allow me to introduce a bit of humor, but some will agree with me that the amount of infallibility in the WSS is only rivaled by the amount of infallibility in the DL.

No matter what, I'm worried about the obstacles we are creating for our Lamas to be able to teach basic Buddhist concepts like the three poisons, since hatred is so easily showed and could be pointed at to refute our teachings. That's all I wanted to say with Caesar's wife. And yes, the demos were effective, and maybe the book is going to be effective, but we are yet to encounter their side effects. And these might've been avoided, had the people in charge been more open to other voices. Like Beggar's voice, for instance, and other voices from us, people of the lineage. I am saying this because it should be known that we are not of one voice and still we accept each other, a good refutation of the accusation of being sectarian or dogmatic, don't you think?