dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: emptymountains on November 02, 2009, 11:38:41 PM
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http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/en/agd (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/en/agd)
288 pages
ISBN 978-0956391803
Although the publication date is 2010, it will actually be released before/after Thanksgiving depending on where you live.
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Western Shugden Society's new book, "The Great Deception" will seal the Dalai Lama's reputation and it is going to be trampled to dust.
Well, probably not.
Just consider all the bad press the Pope and the Catholic Church has got during the last 500 years. And consider also that the truthfullness of that bad press is denied by no-one, Church included. That bad press is nowadays mainstream history and generally accepted truth. But there the Pope still sits smugly in the grandiose palaces of the Vatican, and the sheep yell "hooray for the Pope, please bless us sinners!" and almost all non-catholic Important People tm still respect and revere the Man and the Institution.
There was a book, named "Rogues in the Robes" if I remember correctly, that was about the Karmapa-controversy. It was written by a student of Lama Ole, thereby supporting HE Shamarpa's position and his candidate for the new Karmapa. The major culprit, or the adversary, therefore was HE Tai Situpa and his actions, but there was also the point that the independence of Karma Kagyu school was at danger due to the collaboration of HE Tai Situpa and HE Dalai Lama. The book also seemed to have this idea that some people are trying to create something like a Unified Tibetan Church tm which was of course opposed by the late HH Karmapa, behind whom the small Nyingma lineages also retreated for the sake of independence, but after HH Karmapa died, things were different, and problems arose, as we all know. No need to repeat all that here. But my point is this: Has this book diminished the respect received by HE Tai Situpa or HE Dalai Lama? Nope. It only hardened the division inside the Karma Kagyu school, and made Shamarpa's side an even "more suitable target" of defamation, ostracization and physical attacks. HE Tai Situpa and HE Dalai Lama are still great, and HE Shamarpa still a villain.
After The Great Deception is published, it will be the same: HE Dalai Lama is still great, and all shugdenites are even more villainous villains. I wholly support a book like that, but I do not expect it to change anything in our times. It will only harden the division. The only good that will come out of it, is that it will challenge the "official truth given from above" and offer an alternate version of what has happened. It will therefore help future generations of shugdenites, and perhaps some future Kagyupas, but for us today, it will make things worse.
Harri
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I just finished reading a copy that a friend gave me. I found it very good. :)
Nice to have this infomation in a book.
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Dear Thom,
Please tell us more about the new Dorje Shugden based temple in Utah. Sounds extremely exciting!! :)
I wish it great success. :) Would be great to get updates on this in future as they come out. :D
Ven Gonsar Rinpoche really shows that his pure dharma commitments are more important than anything in this day and age. He never lost himself. What a great lama with so much against him, he sticks to his principles.
May he live long and grow further. :)
May you live long and continue your work!
:)
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Thom, I agree with you in this: We will not lose this 'battle'.
But I also maintain that neither will HE Dalai Lama lose, either as a person or as an institution. He will not fall.
Consider for instance, that the Fifth Dalai Lama ordered a genocide, including massmurder of women and children. This known historical fact has not tarnished his status as a holy man a bit, or made the institution suspect. An icon is an icon. Just like the Pope is eternally pure, no matter how many heretics were burned alive by his Church. Power of institution is such. People bow to power, and a religious institution is chrystallized power. Tibetans do not dare to stand in opposition to him, and others do not care, or pretend to not know. Dalai will not lose, because people are people.
So, in our issue, while neither party will lose, or win, both will continue as a strong age-old currents of Buddhism, the Dorje Shugden practice, and HE Dalai Lama the hegemonic.
I also predict, that we, our generation, will meet the backlash of the Hegemonic and his cadres of 'cultural revolutionaries'. The backlash will come. It will hurt. Badly.
But for the future generations, things will be easy, because their history is no longer written by the Hegemonic alone, but also our voices are heard. It is a level ground for them. And that is the whole point of doing what we are doing: Giving choices and alternative views to those who come after us. Otherwise they would only hear 'One Voice'. They would follow 'the Ring of Power', without a choice.
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Can't wait to hear more Thom. What can we do to help? As I have said to you before: I am willing to do whatever I can to assist you in this project.
May the infinite blessings of the Ganden lineage rain down on all who support this project.
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If the bits and pieces on that other site are really part of the book, then oe oe oe oe...
The text is evidently made by an DL-hater; it totally lacks any journalistic objectivity (not that there has ever been anything like that in truth, but the illusion is important). It does not sound as a work of an objective storyteller, and if that is my perception, you can just imagine how the general reader views the text. It reads as a vitriolic attack upon a greatly respected person, made by an idiot. Sorry, but true. It will not accomplish it's intended purpose.
Upholding Dharma is one thing, but downgrading oneself and others is another. You could have done better, yes?
Vittu pellet, saatana! Saatana!
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ZP,
You raise a very valid point. I have been by no means a 'fan' of what the WSS has put out so far. To this day, I put no links to their website from my own. However, after meditating on your post the past couple of days, I did come up with this:
http://dharmaprotector.wordpress.com/2009/11/14/consequentially-speaking-understanding-the-polemics-of-the-western-shugden-society/ (http://dharmaprotector.wordpress.com/2009/11/14/consequentially-speaking-understanding-the-polemics-of-the-western-shugden-society/)
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I have just the read the new book. This is ground breaking stuff that will shake the Dalai Lama and it's government to the core. This new book has been very skillfully put together, this is a journalists dream! Full of reliable references to follow up. It's just a matter of time..................be patient my dear friends. I belief thousands and thousands of copies will be sold worldwide, even millions! This really is a great deception! The truth like you never seen it before. It's a masterpiece!
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oh thomas my dearest comrade
nobody can put it quite like you, lol! :) you are a legend of the highest order!
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Please post book reviews on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Deception-Ruling-Lamas-Policies/dp/095639180X/ (http://www.amazon.com/Great-Deception-Ruling-Lamas-Policies/dp/095639180X/)
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The text is evidently made by an DL-hater; it totally lacks any journalistic objectivity (not that there has ever been anything like that in truth, but the illusion is important). It does not sound as a work of an objective storyteller, and if that is my perception, you can just imagine how the general reader views the text. It reads as a vitriolic attack upon a greatly respected person, made by an idiot. Sorry, but true. It will not accomplish it's intended purpose.
Upholding Dharma is one thing, but downgrading oneself and others is another. You could have done better, yes?
ZP-
I write this not as a rebuttal of your general view, because I have seen the wisdom you represent on these pages, but to challenge only the things you have said in the section I quote, and to present another view to others who read here... I realize this may not be your final view, so please do not take offense....
I understand that strong feelings can arise when this issue is brought up, but I think what you have said is not justified. The text is NOT made by a DL hater, it is written by a DL-lover!
It has been written in consultation with several high DS lamas, I know this as a fact. If your own lama is not involved, then someone he or she has samaya with IS. So if you say it is a DL hater, you say that our lamas can't engage in wrathful action out of compassion. That is non-sense to me. If you see this as ordinary, you will of course have big problems and anxiety. Remember Dagom Rinpoche's words "We are performing a great healing upon the Dalai Lama."
Don't worry what will be the perception of the general reader, in fact there will be no (or very, very few) general readers. This book has a very particular audience, and they will see what they are meant to see. So many people balked at the protests last year, and the language used, but they were very, very effective, in a way that speakng politely in the language of the acadamy would not have been. We tried that, and tried that for years. NO RESULTS. So The protector is acting more directly now, and the results will be very satisfactory. Rest assured, this book WILL accomplish it's intended purpose, it just may be that you don't see what that is yet.
You are right, we will alienate some intellectuals and dabblers and couch-Buddhists. But you are wrong about one thing: the union of politics and religion as embodied in the person of the Dalai Lama or any other ruling tulku IS DOOMED.
So relax, and enjoy. Do not cleave to the apparent.
But for the future generations, things will be easy, because their history is no longer written by the Hegemonic alone, but also our voices are heard. It is a level ground for them. And that is the whole point of doing what we are doing: Giving choices and alternative views to those who come after us. Otherwise they would only hear 'One Voice'. They would follow 'the Ring of Power', without a choice.
Ha ha! It's TRUE!
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Hi Crazycloud,
Just some passing comments.
I understand that strong feelings can arise when this issue is brought up, but I think what you have said is not justified. The text is NOT made by a DL hater, it is written by a DL-lover!
This is like the case of Caesar's wife, she should not only be honest but look honest. It does not serve any purpose to come here and say that a book with harsh manners comes from a DL's lover. It would've been nice that the book showed that hypothetical love.
It has been written in consultation with several high DS lamas, I know this as a fact.
Even if this were true, it only would be true to a point. The fact is, Tibetan Lamas follow their disciples in the use of Western language and manners, they are their main source of information about such crucial things. They cannot judge the tone and weight of words from their own knowledge of our languages. Whatever excess is in that book or in any other publication is not the responsibility of those Lamas you mention.
Don't worry what will be the perception of the general reader, in fact there will be no (or very, very few) general readers. This book has a very particular audience, and they will see what they are meant to see.
And who are the people belonging to this particular audience? Just curious ...
So many people balked at the protests last year, and the language used, but they were very, very effective, in a way that speakng politely in the language of the acadamy would not have been. We tried that, and tried that for years. NO RESULTS.
They were effective indeed, and continue to be effective. It's quite clear that Dharamsala fears they might resume. Not bulletproof, but still an excellent shield for potential victims of the abuse.
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This is like the case of Caesar's wife, she should not only be honest but look honest. It does not serve any purpose to come here and say that a book with harsh manners comes from a DL's lover. It would've been nice that the book showed that hypothetical love
There is a contradiction in your thinking. Below you praise the demos...why? We protect Shugden practitioners from illegal depredations, we prevent the DL from engaging in terrible bad karma, this is love. The book serves the same function. The Demos seemed very harsh to many, so maybe it is not similar to Ceasar's wife, because by your logic, we should not engage in such as we should not only be loving, but look loving.... but to many, those protests looked hateful! So which is it? If we need to look nice, we can't protest and the book is not good or helpful. If the long term result of our actions is more important, than we our Lamas can engage in wrothful actions, and there is no fault.
Those who wrote the book have love for all living beings , not just "HH." But just a mother must chastise a child from time to time, sometimes politicians need to hear strong words. No one would say the mother should show love instead of discipling that child, the disipline IS her love. Please understand, this is like that.
As mentioned earlier, we tried nice manners for years, and Cesar's wife continued to be beaten behind closed doors. Don't blame call her rude if she finally must resort to shouting her abuse to any who will hear.....
then we tried actions that appeared harsh, and they are working. Forget being polite, we are going to prevent our lineage from being extinguished by politicians.
"It has been written in consultation with several high DS lamas, I know this as a fact."
Even if this were true, it only would be true to a point. The fact is, Tibetan Lamas follow their disciples in the use of Western language and manners, they are their main source of information about such crucial things. They cannot judge the tone and weight of words from their own knowledge of our languages. Whatever excess is in that book or in any other publication is not the responsibility of those Lamas you mention.
it IS true, you can trust me on this one.
Our Lamas have been resident in the west for decades, friend. Do you really think that they "cannot judge the tone and weight" of "Hypocrite," "Dictator," "Liar," "Criminal?" It seems you either have a rather low opinion of your Spiritual Guide, which I doubt, or you have a strong wish for harmony that is overcoming your ability to recognize when strong action is required.
The excesses (as you perceive them) are one of the main points of this book. They are expressly created my many high lamas living in US, Europe and India. When their students, (us) said "....but Rinpoche! Surely this is TOO aggresive," they insisted and went ahead, saying we needed more wisdom and faith.
And who are the people belonging to this particular audience? Just curious ...
You.
me.
Dorje Shugden pratitioners in India and Tibet.
Dalai Lama follwers in India and Tibet.
T.G.I.E.
Samdhong Rinpoche.
The Dalai Lama
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Dear Crazycloud,
I think you mix the meaning of nuances in thought with contradiction.
Like Zhalmed Pawo, I didn't read the book but read the pamphlet produced last year. The serious objections I had about it I still have. They are in this website, buried somewhere, and I don't intend to repeat them here among other things because I know it to be useless. Allow me to introduce a bit of humor, but some will agree with me that the amount of infallibility in the WSS is only rivaled by the amount of infallibility in the DL.
No matter what, I'm worried about the obstacles we are creating for our Lamas to be able to teach basic Buddhist concepts like the three poisons, since hatred is so easily showed and could be pointed at to refute our teachings. That's all I wanted to say with Caesar's wife. And yes, the demos were effective, and maybe the book is going to be effective, but we are yet to encounter their side effects. And these might've been avoided, had the people in charge been more open to other voices. Like Beggar's voice, for instance, and other voices from us, people of the lineage. I am saying this because it should be known that we are not of one voice and still we accept each other, a good refutation of the accusation of being sectarian or dogmatic, don't you think?
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And yes, the demos were effective, and maybe the book is going to be effective, but we are yet to encounter their side effects. And these might've been avoided, had the people in charge been more open to other voices. Like Beggar's voice, for instance, and other voices from us, people of the lineage.
To dear A Friend
It seems possible that the authors have been open to other voices. The pamphlet was a year ago, and the book is quite different. Some sections from the pamphlet are included but the language has changed and is more moderate.
I hear the website is also going to change to bring it into line with the new book and will include extensive factual archives and press clippings.
It would be interesting to see what you think when you've read the book.
love Spacelike
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I think you mix the meaning of nuances in thought with contradiction.
ha ha! Very good!
yes, I sense an absolute embarrassment of nuance in your positions!
Like Zhalmed Pawo, I didn't read the book but read the pamphlet produced last year. The serious objections I had about it I still have.
I had what I imagine to be similar objections initially. Saffron robed Muslim?!?! For goodness' sake! But I have reflected extensively on how comfortable we are with the unconventional behavior of mahasiddhas safely tucked away in the dim recesses of history. We LOVE to read about Tilopa (Killer), or Padmasambhava (liar, scoundrel), Ghantapa (humilated the king, flew into a rage, name calling, drunk, sybarite) Marpa (sadist). But what do we do when we come face to face with actions that really challenge our preconceptions, without the safety the canon telling us, "ah, that was all ok, he was a Mahasiddha?" Don't let the opportunity to put your rep on the line for the Lineage pass you by!If we don't stand up, Forcefully, now, there will be no need to worry about the obstructions our lama's will face in the future, our lineage will dry up and disappear.
If these Guru's aren't realized beings, the lineage is already lost, so better to go in search of a new one. if they are, better follow and feel joyful confidence, like Naropa stealing soup (Illegal, against precepts) or slapping the princess (hostile, agressive). I'm sure Naropa lost a few potential devotees on those occasions, but his lineage did alright, after all.
They are in this website, buried somewhere, and I don't intend to repeat them here among other things because I know it to be useless.
Probably true. When the generals are charging, it doesn't do much good for the privates to express their concern from the trenches.... especially as the opponent is starting to break ranks and flee.
Allow me to introduce a bit of humor, but some will agree with me that the amount of infallibility in the WSS is only rivaled by the amount of infallibility in the DL.
You may be right. On the other hand, you may not.
No matter what, I'm worried about the obstacles we are creating for our Lamas to be able to teach basic Buddhist concepts like the three poisons, since hatred is so easily showed and could be pointed at to refute our teachings.
my local Dharma center is THRIVING due to Dharmapala's blessings. We lost a few around the demos, but have doubled in size since then. I'd put my worries to rest, friend. Even if you get to teach the three poisons, if your lineage is gutted, it has no benefit. It's like giving someone an umbrella with a big hole, it's useless. Like HHDL. He can teach the three poisons al day, but he has no lineage blessing, so eventually any lineage he starts will die out. So sad. and I mean that, it's not a rhetorical device to scorn, it's really very tragic.
And yes, the demos were effective, and maybe the book is going to be effective, but we are yet to encounter their side effects. And these might've been avoided, had the people in charge been more open to other voices. Like Beggar's voice, for instance, and other voices from us, people of the lineage.
Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, no way to avoid side effects. There is no doubt your voice was heard, and many, many, saying the same thing. The view your voice represented was just not favored by many Lamas. I just rejoice in their good results, where no other good results have been seen these last 20 years.
I am saying this because it should be known that we are not of one voice and still we accept each other, a good refutation of the accusation of being sectarian or dogmatic, don't you think?
My feeling is that our views are probably not so very far apart, and that we can easily accept one another's stances. Sure, let's stay together, like Al Green. You can be a crazy-cloud and I will be a friend.
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;)
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Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, no way to avoid side effects.
That's a very good analogy--it helps my mind.
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:D ;D :D This is wonderful, that a mind can be helped with such a simple device.
... We might not always be in agreement, but I like to hear your voices.
This having been said, dear friends, I'm not the private under any of the decision-makers in the WSS, and they are not my generals, the main reason for it being that I don't even know them. Also I have to say that realizations are not a guarantee of infallibility in all matters, particularly not in matters of such endeavours as communications with the West, expression, manners, use of language. So I still hold the opinions expressed before.
Nevertheless, I really wish with all my heart that the excellent intentions be fulfilled and the side effects be nul, or at least as negligible as the breaking of eggs for an omelette.
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Dear Spacelike,
Thank you for your kind message. I hope the dose of moderation you perceive in the book diminishes the color of "DL's hater" that Zhalmed Pawo perceived in the website. In that case, would it be too much to ask that when they introduce changes to the website they suppress the pamphlet and instead put the same concepts in the more moderate language of the book?
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Dear everyone,
With respect to everyone, I think, it is better everyone reads the book first then comment. You will have more indepth insight. Just reading the pamphlet is not enough.
WSS has a strong voice. I am not a part of them, but they are hardworking and courageous.
TK
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I plan on doing a book review on my blog; hopefully the book will be here this week.
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I've read the book many times now, it's strong medicine to cure a particular problem.
Although the Dalai Lama talks about love, compassion, tolerance, respect and dialogue, in truth he doesn't understand the meaning of these words except for the respect and good reputation it earns him. He doesn't respond to 'please' and 'have you ever considered...?' I'm sorry to have to say this but he only understands threats. In the beginning, he and the TGIE were so arrogant as to believe they were untouchable and above the law. They didn't need to engage in dialogue with spirit worshippers or make compromises. I guess that the Dorje Shugden Society, Kundeling and the WSS have taught him otherwise but he still hasn't learned the lesson he needs to stop being a threat to Dharma in this world. The only thing he understands is his own power and reputation and hurting these is the only way to emasculate him and remove the cancer of political interference from Tibetan Buddhism.
The book is very well researched, well written and backed up with quotes from lots of reliable third party authors and books. It's strong, but it's the truth. It doesn't pull any punches. It calls the Dalai Lama, Samdhong and the Abbots of the monasteries that were party to ostracising Shugden practitioners 'criminals wearing spiritual masks'. It's strong, but it's the truth. It's time the truth was told.
The Kagyu tradition have already had to suffer because of the political interference by the Dalai Lama and now it's the Gelugpa's turn. He won't stop at anything to weaken and destroy the traditions of Tibetan Buddhism until he's the boss of his own brand of Buddhism and destroyed the path to enlightenment for countless living beings, so something has to give. It's time to turn the spotlight on the Dalai Lama's shameful activities and in doing so, protect the holy Dharma.
It's time to be courageous and do what has to be done.
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this book is great.
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I found this book interesting in the issues raised about Lamaism, and the deity Dorje Shugden. While the debate has raged since 1978, many people in the west may not have heard anything about the course of events, or whether there is truth in the actions of HHDL being exposed by WSS.
All credit to them for their documentation, but I can't help feeling a sense of biasness towards their views, that I'm left with an ugly taste in my mouth reminiscent of sour grapes. What could have come out an objective read for me turned quickly into a blame game towards HHDL. Once that tone was set, I found it difficult to even believe the facts quoted or even the truthfulness of their claims.
I have checked out dorjeshugden[dot]com, and antishugdenp[dot]com and I am still not convinced that the issues are as they seem. If you understand the system of vows / commitments, guru devotion, lineage and many other buddhist concepts you too will find it difficult to pass "judgement" on this self created situation by HHDL.
I have deep respect for HHDL as he has been and will be the first name that will come to mind in a westerners head about encountering buddhism. And now with HHDL stance on the deity Dorje Shugden, HHDL is now spreading the dharma to the east via China and their aversion to HHDL.
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This is just more noob stuff, a concerted campaign to discredit what 'A Great Deception' says.
That ugly taste in your mouth reminiscent of sour grapes is caused by your realization of the deceptiveness of the Dalai Lama's actions. It's ugly reading because what he's done is extremely ugly and very disappointing considering the image he tries to portray of himself. What's even more sad for you is if you continue to have great respect for the Dalai Lama given the wealth of information of his deceptive activities and his harming of others. You're in denial, friend.
Don't shoot the messenger, accept the message, painful though that may be. The worst deception is self-deception.
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Is it really really true like what they say in the book that the Dalai Lama is a fake? So if the Dalai Lama is a fake, assuming, then does that imply that Drakpa Gyeltsen is suppose to be the one chosen to be the Dalai Lama???
This is really interesting. Can anyone verify this?
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This is just more noob stuff, a concerted campaign to discredit what 'A Great Deception' says.
That ugly taste in your mouth reminiscent of sour grapes is caused by your realization of the deceptiveness of the Dalai Lama's actions. It's ugly reading because what he's done is extremely ugly and very disappointing considering the image he tries to portray of himself. What's even more sad for you is if you continue to have great respect for the Dalai Lama given the wealth of information of his deceptive activities and his harming of others. You're in denial, friend.
Don't shoot the messenger, accept the message, painful though that may be. The worst deception is self-deception.
No its not because of the deceptiveness, i say again i will never make judgement on HHDL because i am in no position to be the judge and jury like so many others are quick to do.
1) Before HHDL opened his mouth DS was not known and now DS is popular because of him
2) Having read TGIE propaganda regarding the DS issue before, the sentiment behind publications about the DS issue is never middleway. Even this book came across onesided. Check the purpose of the book and compare this to what is presented in the book it doesn't fulfill the purpose at all.
If you don't have the book heres the purpose
- to liberate millions of innocent practitioners of the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden and their families from suffering
- to restore peace and harmony between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
- to re-establish the common spiritual activities of Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
- to free Buddhism from political pollution
to liberate millions of innocent practitioners....
i think it makes them feel even worse.
to restore peace and harmony....
it leads to more anger and disharmony
to re-establish common spiritual activities...
it serves to divide spiritual acitivities
to free Buddhism form political pollution...
it serves to fuel the politics by having people focus on politics instead of practice.
Its an interesting read to see what the other side has to say. But the sour grapes i feel is that it became a publication that serves to sensationalise rather than academise (if there is such a word) the environment and issues.
They had a great chance to portay the situation unbiasedly but in then end it came across like a book of frustration.
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This is just more noob stuff, a concerted campaign to discredit what 'A Great Deception' says.
That ugly taste in your mouth reminiscent of sour grapes is caused by your realization of the deceptiveness of the Dalai Lama's actions. It's ugly reading because what he's done is extremely ugly and very disappointing considering the image he tries to portray of himself. What's even more sad for you is if you continue to have great respect for the Dalai Lama given the wealth of information of his deceptive activities and his harming of others. You're in denial, friend.
Don't shoot the messenger, accept the message, painful though that may be. The worst deception is self-deception.
No its not because of the deceptiveness, i say again i will never make judgement on HHDL because i am in no position to be the judge and jury like so many others are quick to do.
1) Before HHDL opened his mouth DS was not known and now DS is popular because of him
2) Having read TGIE propaganda regarding the DS issue before, the sentiment behind publications about the DS issue is never middleway. Even this book came across onesided. Check the purpose of the book and compare this to what is presented in the book it doesn't fulfill the purpose at all.
If you don't have the book heres the purpose
- to liberate millions of innocent practitioners of the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden and their families from suffering
- to restore peace and harmony between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
- to re-establish the common spiritual activities of Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
- to free Buddhism from political pollution
to liberate millions of innocent practitioners....
i think it makes them feel even worse.
to restore peace and harmony....
it leads to more anger and disharmony
to re-establish common spiritual activities...
it serves to divide spiritual acitivities
to free Buddhism form political pollution...
it serves to fuel the politics by having people focus on politics instead of practice.
Its an interesting read to see what the other side has to say. But the sour grapes i feel is that it became a publication that serves to sensationalise rather than academise (if there is such a word) the environment and issues.
They had a great chance to portay the situation unbiasedly but in then end it came across like a book of frustration.
i thought that book was nothing more than biased facts and whinings of anti DLism....hmm
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I don't like some of the things that were said in DECEPTION BOOK, especially that the current Dalai lama is not the real Dalai Lama. There is no way that would take off let alone be believed by the majority. That would sound cheap and just an under the table tactic to undermine him. There are other numerous ways to state our cases.
But having said that, the Deception Book was necessary. Many new practitioners who know nothing will ponder deeper. Will go in with a discriminating mind after reading it. (just can't wait for the dorje shugden movie to come that is in the making now) It will also let the other ppl know that we will NOT LISTEN TO ALL THE TIBETAN GOVT IN EXILE'S ANTI-SHUGDEN RHETORIC. I certainly will not.
But if other ppl do not like the Dalai Lama and says so on this forum, they have every right. This forum is about speaking our minds when many of the circumstances in religious-political life do not 'allow' us to. I do not condone anti-Dalai lama expressions, nor do I condone telling them to keep quiet. I read, think, and contemplate quietly. When I have something to say and it is not karmically damaging to myself and others, then i express. But do not get me wrong, as I am 100% into freedom of speech. I like hearing everyone's thoughts. This forum is indeed becoming more and more interesting. I do enjoy reading the posts very much. I also LEARN ALOT FROM THE POSTS. Some of the posts GIVE ME SO MUCH STRENGTH AND HOPE AND ENRICH MY PRACTICE. For that I sincerely thank everyone who takes the time and care to be involved in this helpful forum. I say clearly everyone is doing such a great job in their contributions. This forum has become a Dorje Shugden Practitoner's Support Group.
I don't like the ban but I don't hate the Dalai lama or anyone. There have been many ppl in the past who told me that I am crazy for being so Buddhist or being a Buddhist and they were dead against it. But I don't hate them and I continue what is right for me. No matter what Dalai Lama says, I will not give up my practice of Dorje Shugden nor forsake the lamas who gave Him to me. It has made a huge difference in my life. Dorje Shugden's intervention has been clear and decisive many times in my life that his help is undeniable.
I have listened to him speak through his various oracles many times, and what he says and what he teaches is the same as what the Dalai Lama teaches, strange as it might seem. They say the same things on 99% of the points of course except the Dorje Shugden issue.
For the rest of my life I will promote Dorje Shugden anyway I can and continuously because I HAVE SEEN HIS BENEFICIAL INFLUENCE IN MY LIFE AND I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE OTHERS 'ENJOY' THE SAME PROTECTION AND GUIDANCE.
I CAN'T ALWAYS GET TO GOOD ADVICE OR HELP, BUT I KNOW DORJE SHUGDEN IS AROUND. I can 'feel' him at times. It could be my imagination but also I don't want to underestimate his kindness and ability to help everyone even a simple sam like me as he does have enlightened quick acting abilities able to percieve every being who calls upon him simutaneously.
tk
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i thought that book was nothing more than biased facts and whinings of anti DLism....hmm
Have you read it? Are you saying that the quotations from independent sources and interviews and so forth are wrong?
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I don't like some of the things that were said in DECEPTION BOOK, especially that the current Dalai lama is not the real Dalai Lama. There is no way that would take off let alone be believed by the majority. That would sound cheap and just an under the table tactic to undermine him. There are other numerous ways to state our cases.
Dear tk,
But what if it's true? It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that the wrong boy was chosen as the Dalai Lama. Why couldn't this happen, especially in these degenerate times? There are many truths that are not accepted by the majority, but that doesn't make them any less true.
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It is not beyond the bounds of possibility, that it might be the 'wrong' Dalai lama, but that direction would be less skilfull to pursue in order to lift the ban.
It is also not beyond the bounds of possibility that the current Dalai Lama is the real incarnation also. It would be easier to go under that assumption to achieve our goals of lifting the ban.
tk
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It is not beyond the bounds of possibility, that it might be the 'wrong' Dalai lama, but that direction would be less skilfull to pursue in order to lift the ban.
It is also not beyond the bounds of possibility that the current Dalai Lama is the real incarnation also. It would be easier to go under that assumption to achieve our goals of lifting the ban.
tk
oh thats a smart thing to say. really, really smart. i like you TK!
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But if other ppl do not like the Dalai Lama and says so on this forum, they have every right. This forum is about speaking our minds when many of the circumstances in religious-political life do not 'allow' us to. I do not condone anti-Dalai lama expressions, nor do I condone telling them to keep quiet. I read, think, and contemplate quietly. When I have something to say and it is not karmically damaging to myself and others, then i express. But do not get me wrong, as I am 100% into freedom of speech.
Dear TK
Thank you for that sharing. I fully agree with you. People have the right to have an opinion about anything - a person, a belief, a religion, a cause. Like you, I also do not condone anti-Dalai Lama sentiments, but i didn't think about NOT telling them to keep quiet.
That is something for me to contemplate. :)
i believe that people can have an opinion but i personally do not like it when people make nasty and personal attacks on people who don't share their same view. Especially in this so-called Dorje Shugden controversy. The Shugdenpas are already subject to discrimination and criticism by the anti-shugden group. Surely we don't need negativity within too.
Shugdenpas are all Dorje Shugden practitioners, so let our behaviour reflect our holy Protector. Let us represent him well.
Being a Dorje Shugden practitioner is not all about the Dalai Lama. He's one of the ingredients, no doubt, but his actions, whatever his motivation, is surely not the focus of our practice. If he is as bad as what some people think, his karma will ripen. If he is not, then we shouldn't criticise. So either way, there is no point getting upset about him.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
with deep respect,
kate
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Tibetan Buddhism's only female living Buddha, the twelfth Samding Dorje Phagmo, who chose to stay in Tibet when the Dalai Lama fled, has said, "The sins of the Dalai Lama and his followers seriously violate the basic teachings and precepts of Buddhism and seriously damage traditional Tibetan Buddhism's normal order and good reputation."
edit: http://www.news24.com/Content/World/News/1073/09a2024f9a1c4b5d9c00bdbd268a74c1/30-04-2008-08-18/Female_Buddha_slams_Dalai_Lama (http://www.news24.com/Content/World/News/1073/09a2024f9a1c4b5d9c00bdbd268a74c1/30-04-2008-08-18/Female_Buddha_slams_Dalai_Lama)
I guess this is old news. Sorry.
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The undeniable truth is that Dalai Lama destroyed his reputation many years ago.
Hear hear! People destroy their reputations through their own samsaric actions, not people pointing out the nature of their actions.
Besides, the Dalai Lama's worldly reputation is a worldly concern, no?
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and thats all proven by bad mouthing DL? how boring and political.
If they can be proven without bad mouthing DL AND at the same time the Sangha after reading them denounces DL (meaning that they're valid enough to command that) then allright i'll believe.
about Dorje Samding Pagmo: she's in chinese territory, its obvious that saying long live DL is a very bad idea. She's also working with PRC to perserve and spread Dharma in PRC. i'd say that too if i were her to get on DL's good side.
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I just read 'A Great Deception' and I am thoroughly disturbed by the message contained within this book. I am not the Dalai Lama's student nor am I Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's student but I do find that the book at times tend to steer too much from the actual theme of the book. The theme of the book is (as printed on the back cover)
- to liberate millions of innocent practitioners of the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden and their families from suffering
I feel that the book will do very little in liberating their lives when most of the perpetrators of the atrocities probably will never read it. Anyway, what the Dalai Lama decrees have nothing to do with the practitioners in the West, hence NKT and WSS is so huge now. But there is nothing mentioned in the book of what WSS is doing within India(where most if not all of the victims are) to support these victims. All it seems to be doing is to defame the Dalai Lama.
- to restore peace and harmony between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
Well, honestly the book makes me angry and I am not even remotely connected to the events mentioned in the book. So if I am practitioner or a non-practitioner, I could imagine the conflict that can arise.
- to re-established the common spiritual activities of Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
Nothing in the book seemed to lead towards 're-establishing the common spiritual activities'. How do you quell a conflict by stressing upon the reasons for the conflict? It looks like typical western-style activism that may cause more damage than benefit. If I were new to Buddhism and I pick this book up, I would be totally turned off.
- to free Buddhism from political pollution
Well, this is the only point that is closest to what I felt the book was trying to do. I do feel what the book said about the Dalai Lama on this aspect is clear and reasonable especially with its citations. Unfortunately, politics will always be dirty business.
Nonetheless, I like this book for bringing to light the plight of the Dorje Shugden practitioners (although I think it constituted just a small part of the book) and I do hope that this book will make a change in TGIE and Dalai Lama's decisions in the future or perhaps a lift of the ban.
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A Rare photo of Pakpa Samding Rinpoche or Dorje Pakmo. A very high ranking female Lama incarnation. Her line of incarnations are considered to be an emanation of Vajra Yogini.
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and thats all proven by bad mouthing DL? how boring and political.
If they can be proven without bad mouthing DL AND at the same time the Sangha after reading them denounces DL (meaning that they're valid enough to command that) then allright i'll believe.
about Dorje Samding Pagmo: she's in chinese territory, its obvious that saying long live DL is a very bad idea. She's also working with PRC to perserve and spread Dharma in PRC. i'd say that too if i were her to get on DL's good side.
I agree with you Ensapa.
I must say I am impressed by the book, extensive compilation of news stories, documents, personal accounts, and chronologies, and 381 references/ notes. This book will make a good thesis.
The aims of this book are supposedly religious, two of which are: to liberate millions of innocent practitioners of the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden and their families from suffering, and to free Buddhism from political pollution.
Yet, this book is a damning account of the Fifth, Thirteenth, and current Dalai Lamas’ theocracies and their failures, especially as political leader, through exposing the Dalai Lama’s “open secrets” to the world by listing out Dalai Lama’s deception actions, unethical or non-virtuous actions , and actions of violence and persecution.
From a religious practitioner (REAL BUDDHISM) point of view, we have been taught that we cannot and do not know the motivations of others; yet, this book makes repeated claims to know the intentions and motivations of the Dalai Lama, asserting among other things that he constantly schemes to gain power because he is "self-serving" and a "troublemaker."
I've also been taught not to focus on the "faults" of others, but to look at my own delusions and explore the nature of my own mind. Yet, the book's focus is on the alleged "faults" of the Dalai Lama, whom they claimed was a “god-King” whom Tibetans blindly follow.
So I really don't know what I can say? Perhaps someone who REALLY cares about Dorje Shugden, and not so much about the rights to practice Dorje Shugden would make a difference by writing a book REALLY about Dorje Shugden and not the politics behind it? Trinleykalsang may be? (p/s; I love your DS history blog!)
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On page 9, right after stating the four aims of the book, the authors say that “Achieving these aims depends solely upon whether the present Dalai Lama will accept the four points set out at the conclusion of Chapter 4 of this book.”
No one else besides the Dalai Lama is responsible for achieving the four aims stated in the book; this depends solely upon him. Thus, If we combine the four aims on page 9 with the four points of acceptance on page 40:
1. When the Dalai Lama allows anyone who wishes to practice Dorje Shugden the freedom to do so, this will liberate millions of innocent practitioners of the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden and their families from suffering.
2. When the Dalai Lama stops completely the discrimination against Shugden practitioners, this will restore peace and harmony between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners.
3. When the Dalai Lama allows all Shugden monks and nuns who have been expelled to return to their monasteries and nunneries, and allows them to receive the same material and spiritual rights as non-Shugden practitioners, this will re-establish the common spiritual activities of Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners.
4. When the Dalai Lama writes to Tibetan communities throughout the world that they should apply practically the above three points, this will free Buddhism from political pollution.
If you read #4 carefully, it is basically saying that Tibetan Buddhism will become free of political pollution once the Dalai Lama renounces Lama Policy (i.e., using religion for political aims).
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Besides, the Dalai Lama's worldly reputation is a worldly concern, no?
Well then I think it's quite nice of the WSS to pursue the worldly concern of destroying the Dalai Lama's reputation for the sake of Dorje Shugden. After all, the Dalai Lama himself clearly doesn't give a toss about his reputation; he seems quite happy to forgo it and play the part of a monk suppressing religion. Does that mean the Dalai Lama is doing something that is supramundane/not worldly, because he doesn't care about his reputation?
His ban and actions on this issue are based on non-truth, but most Tibetans don't recognize this
I think many Tibetans DO recognise this but they just aren't given the chance to voice their opinions :-[
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Well then I think it's quite nice of the WSS to pursue the worldly concern of destroying the Dalai Lama's reputation for the sake of Dorje Shugden.
I go back to my original statement: The Dalai Lama's reputation is being destroyed through his own samsaric actions, not by the WSS pointing out the harmful nature and hypocricy of his actions.
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Well, one view is His Holiness is destroying his own reputation due to his samsaric actions. Another view is that he is doing this for another reason. He is doing this to make Dorje Shugden even bigger. Why? Dorje Shugden can benefit many, many, many beings in the future. He is clearing the karma for it.
You see when Yamantaka Tantras was brought to Tibet, it was ridiculed and made fun off. Nobody wanted to practice it because they just didn't think it was a Buddhist practice. Today, it is a mainstream higher Tantric Practice. Likewise, Dorje Shugden appear to be just a worldly spirit but it will one day become a mainstream Dharma Protector.
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Well, one view is His Holiness is destroying his own reputation due to his samsaric actions. Another view is that he is doing this for another reason. He is doing this to make Dorje Shugden even bigger. Why? Dorje Shugden can benefit many, many, many beings in the future. He is clearing the karma for it.
In case you hadn't noticed, His Ordinariness' only goal is the destruction of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition for his greater glory. He wants to unite all schools of Buddhism together and finish the job that was thwarted by the 13 Tibetan settlements. With no 16th Karmapa in the way to stop him, he thinks he can succeed. It looks like, with few exceptions, it's working including you guys who are prepared to make any number of excuses for his destructive actions and undermine the work of those who would oppose him.
Your pure view is misplaced and destructive. Self-deception is the worst deception.
Dorje Shugden appear to be just a worldly spirit
To whom? He looks like a Buddha to me.
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In case you hadn't noticed, His Ordinariness' only goal is the destruction of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition for his greater glory. He wants to unite all schools of Buddhism together and finish the job that was thwarted by the 13 Tibetan settlements. With no 16th Karmapa in the way to stop him, he thinks he can succeed. It looks like, with few exceptions, it's working including you guys who are prepared to make any number of excuses for his destructive actions and undermine the work of those who would oppose him.
1. Dalai Lama is getting old, and with so many people saying bad things and opposing him, I think HE KNOWS that he will not succeed in uniting all schools of Buddhism together. Even if he does, he cannot be the spiritual leader forever.
2. Globally, many high lamas have started their own centres and promote their own lineages far and wide. I am sorry I don't know many, but I think NKT is doing fine with their own tradition of 1100 centres, FPMT also. Shambhala as well. They have their own lineages and tradition and centres to uphold and will not fit in the “uniting” all schools.
3. Dalai Lama has spoken about his successor - the Karmapa. So perhaps his wanting to unite all schools of Buddhism within the Tibetan community has other reasons beside him wanting to be the spiritual head? May be it would ease transition to the new “god-king” Karmapa who’s from another sect? May be there’s a reason why the 16th Karmapa did not become the spiritual leader of the Tibetan community and the 17th Karmapa would instead?
At the meeting of Tibetan exiles in November, at least five of 15 working groups listed the Karmapa as a suitable candidate to lead the community in the future. He was mentioned by the prime minister of the Tibetan government-in-exile as a potential leader, and also by the Dalai Lama, who named him among several monks who might emerge to lead the movement. Karmapa is a tulku, or reincarnation, currently recognized by both the Chinese and the Dalai Lama. So he will be a spiritual leader who will be accepted by the Tibetan and the Chinese.
I think as students of the Dharma, we need to look at things not just how they appear to us or on the surface. I am so sorry to say this, but Tibet losing its country has caused Tibetan Buddhism to spread in the world. Of course the destruction of Tibet is very bad, but it has some positive results - Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama and many high lamas are now teaching worldwide instead of to a selected few in monastic institutions.
So why not be positive and see that Dalai Lama’s ‘destructive’ actions could also bring about positive results which could be the flourishing of Dorje Shugden practice & Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition?
If you do not have faith in the “fake Dalai Lama” whom you called ‘His Ordinariness', have faith in the Dharma protector whom you believe is a Buddha. Do you think he will let Tsongkhapa’s tradition and Dharma teachings degenerate?
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1. Dalai Lama is getting old, and with so many people saying bad things and opposing him, I think HE KNOWS that he will not succeed in uniting all schools of Buddhism together. Even if he does, he cannot be the spiritual leader forever.
Which is why I doubt that's his main aim. He's so old already and it's plainly obvious Tibet won't get its independence in his lifetime so even if he does manage to unite the four schools, he won't be around to enjoy the benefits in Tibet. That, and the WSS book shows that Dalai Lamas don't necessarily follow the policies of their predecessors so even if the 14th Dalai Lama does succeed in uniting the four schools of Buddhism, who's to say the 15th Dalai Lama will fight to keep them united?
2. Globally, many high lamas have started their own centres and promote their own lineages far and wide. I am sorry I don't know many, but I think NKT is doing fine with their own tradition of 1100 centres, FPMT also. Shambhala as well. They have their own lineages and tradition and centres to uphold and will not fit in the “uniting” all schools.
Actually, I wouldn't necessarily say that FPMT were doing fine. They might have a huge number of centres but their founder's reincarnation, Lama Osel, gave up his Buddhist studies just like all the FPMT centres gave up Dorje Shugden. What does that tell you about their broken guru samaya?
If you do not have faith in the “fake Dalai Lama” whom you called ‘His Ordinariness', have faith in the Dharma protector whom you believe is a Buddha. Do you think he will let Tsongkhapa’s tradition and Dharma teachings degenerate?
Well said! If the Dalai Lama's supposedly generating so much negative karma as a result of this ban, why isn't Dorje Shugden, out of his great compassion, stopping him? How come Dorje Shugden isn't stopping what many people claim as misinformation from Nechung?
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If you do not have faith in the “fake Dalai Lama” whom you called ‘His Ordinariness', have faith in the Dharma protector whom you believe is a Buddha. Do you think he will let Tsongkhapa’s tradition and Dharma teachings degenerate?
Well said! If the Dalai Lama's supposedly generating so much negative karma as a result of this ban, why isn't Dorje Shugden, out of his great compassion, stopping him? How come Dorje Shugden isn't stopping what many people claim as misinformation from Nechung?
Dear DharmaDefender
I would say Dorje Shugden is working to stop him, through the actions of the WSS. Just a thought.
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Well said! If the Dalai Lama's supposedly generating so much negative karma as a result of this ban, why isn't Dorje Shugden, out of his great compassion, stopping him? How come Dorje Shugden isn't stopping what many people claim as misinformation from Nechung?
Ahem...what do you think 'A Great Deception' is, chopped liver? ;D Dorje Shugden IS stopping the Dalai Lama through the actions of the WSS, as Mohani said.
I see the book as a manifestation of Dorje Shugden's wisdom that's trying to open the eyes of a world that has them tightly shut and that bestows awards on the Dalai Lama because of his deceptiveness and their confusion. The book is telling a truth that you don't want to accept - that the Dalai Lama is a fake and he's nothing more than a corrupt politician who is pulling off one of the greatest deceptions ever. If you don't accept what your Protector is saying, who are you going to believe? Why would the WSS publish this book, which contains much documentary evidence from many sources if it wasn't true? They would be ridiculed if there was no evidence for what they are saying, but there's a lot.
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I am so sorry to say this, but Tibet losing its country has caused Tibetan Buddhism to spread in the world. Of course the destruction of Tibet is very bad, but it has some positive results - Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama and many high lamas are now teaching worldwide instead of to a selected few in monastic institutions.
So why not be positive and see that Dalai Lama’s ‘destructive’ actions could also bring about positive results which could be the flourishing of Dorje Shugden practice & Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition?
I don't believe this is the same kind of situation at all. I am sad that Tibet was invaded and that so much suffering has been experienced by Tibetans, but in terms of the Dharma it was a good thing, as you say. I'm sorry to say this, but the loss of Tibet as an independent country does not affect the Dharma, but the loss of Dorje Shugden as the protector of the Ganden tradition certainly does. Therefore, although the destruction of Tibet has had good results spiritually for the world, the Dalai Lama's vendetta against Dorje Shugden and his attempts to destroy the tradition of reliance upon him never will.
If you do not have faith in the “fake Dalai Lama” whom you called ‘His Ordinariness', have faith in the Dharma protector whom you believe is a Buddha. Do you think he will let Tsongkhapa’s tradition and Dharma teachings degenerate?
No, he won't but he needs us to act to stop the Dalai Lama. Dorje Shugden and the WSS are working together to accomplish this goal.
Buddhas can't act independent of sentient beings; it's a dependent relationship. If it's not, I can just sit back and let Buddha enlighten me without me having to apply any effort from my side to create the causes. If I think this, it's a wrong view. Similarly, those who think that Dorje Shugden practitioners can just sit back and do nothing and Dorje Shugden will save Je Tsongkhapa's tradition are holding a similar wrong view imho.
From one point of view i'm actually very grateful to the Dalai Lama for giving me the opportunity to create some amazing karma through my efforts of protect Je Tsongkhapa's Dharma. That's really incredible merit, if you think about it. However, in my heart of hearts, I do wish this situation didn't exist and that peace and harmony ruled in the Buddhist community.
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i find this book kind of shocking. news and information which you've never ever heard before. it is kind of bewildering at times to know how much effort is put into putting down one party in order to get the message across to another.
still need time to digest.
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Just imagine if we had this book back in 1996...
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Well said! If the Dalai Lama's supposedly generating so much negative karma as a result of this ban, why isn't Dorje Shugden, out of his great compassion, stopping him? How come Dorje Shugden isn't stopping what many people claim as misinformation from Nechung?
Ahem...what do you think 'A Great Deception' is, chopped liver? ;D Dorje Shugden IS stopping the Dalai Lama through the actions of the WSS, as Mohani said.
I see the book as a manifestation of Dorje Shugden's wisdom that's trying to open the eyes of a world that has them tightly shut and that bestows awards on the Dalai Lama because of his deceptiveness and their confusion. The book is telling a truth that you don't want to accept - that the Dalai Lama is a fake and he's nothing more than a corrupt politician who is pulling off one of the greatest deceptions ever. If you don't accept what your Protector is saying, who are you going to believe? Why would the WSS publish this book, which contains much documentary evidence from many sources if it wasn't true? They would be ridiculed if there was no evidence for what they are saying, but there's a lot.
I don't see it as that because never once has Dorje Shugden ever spoken out against any high lama. In fact, even after the monasteries tried to kill him, when he manifested the next day via the oracle, he requested everyone to respect the Dalai Lama.
So are you saying that Dorje Shugden is two-faced, manifesting such a book whilst telling people they should respect the Dalai Lama???
I think the WSS published the book to destroy the Dalai Lama's reputation, not educate people about Dorje Shugden. I'm not saying the documented evidence isn't true - I believe the chronology to be true and I use it in forums elsewhere to defend our Protector - I'm just saying that the tone of the book leaves a lot to be desired. In school you learn to write about historical facts with objectivity, and allow the facts to persuade the reader - that objectivity is entirely lacking in A Great Deception.
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So are you saying that Dorje Shugden is two-faced, manifesting such a book whilst telling people they should respect the Dalai Lama???
I think the WSS published the book to destroy the Dalai Lama's reputation, not educate people about Dorje Shugden. I'm not saying the documented evidence isn't true - I believe the chronology to be true and I use it in forums elsewhere to defend our Protector - I'm just saying that the tone of the book leaves a lot to be desired. In school you learn to write about historical facts with objectivity, and allow the facts to persuade the reader - that objectivity is entirely lacking in A Great Deception.
We should respect the Dalai Lama just as we respect any sentient being. Dorje Shugden has not said anything through an oracle, as far as I know, about this issue and I've never heard Dorje Shugden express any opinion about the Dalai Lama, so we don't know what his view is. We certainly cannot respect what the Dalai Lama is doing.
It's no good educating people about Dorje Shugden because most people simply believe what the Dalai Lama says, they don't want to hear that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha because they think he's a demon. The Dalai Lama has powerful speech and a good reputation. Most people have a high opinion of him and this is working against Shugden practitioners because, these days, many people lack the ability to analyse and come to logical conclusions - they just tend to align themselves with the person they have the highest opinion of, and generally that's the most famous person.
So, what to do? There's no alternative but to reduce the power of the Dalai Lama's speech by pointing out that he's being deceptive and is not what he appears to be. This, if it is believed, will 'wake people up' so that they aren't simply blindly believing what he says. I don't believe there's any other way to gain ground against the Dalai Lama, who's got an enormous head start in terms of public credibility. The only way is to destroy that credibility. The WSS is not saying anything that's not true. They are quoting from books, magazines and articles by many diverse authors. In reality, the Dalai Lama has destroyed his own reputation through his non-virtuous actions, but people are mesmerised by his public persona and don't see his deceptiveness. All that WSS is doing is making it clear for everyone to see. It's not a pretty picture, but it's a true one.
The language is, at times, emotive and that might be seen to detract from the message but I trust the skill of the people who wrote the book. I think it will touch those who need to be touched - generally those who aren't obsessively attached to the Dalai Lama and the need to see him as a holy being: in other words, the general public who are not his disciples.
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It is not beyond the bounds of possibility, that it might be the 'wrong' Dalai lama, but that direction would be less skilfull to pursue in order to lift the ban.
It is also not beyond the bounds of possibility that the current Dalai Lama is the real incarnation also. It would be easier to go under that assumption to achieve our goals of lifting the ban.
tk
I TOTALLY AGREE and WOULD PICK NO 2.
If we are to come together as one to voice out on the injustice of what is happening to Shugdenpas... it would be much easier to achieve our goals of LIFTING the ban if we stop slaming the Dalai Lama as a fake.
Whether he is real or not is besides the point. The point is that HH the Dalai Lama is creating religious discrimination outright onto Shugdenpas. That in it self I think (with so many evidence, news, youtubes, docs) carries more weight then saying the Dalai lama is a "fake". Because that is something you cannot really proof, there is no hard evidence except some monk saying so (from the book)
Also not all of Dalai Lama's actions are totally negative. He has build homes, hospitals, schools etc for his people. He has touched many lives as much as you disagree, but he has, there is no doubt about that.
That is what the Tibetans and Dalai Lama followers will say and argue back. More over the concept of the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig - is someone they can never see as ordinary is too well ingrained. There is not one person I know who does not know who is the Dalai Lama. Even though you may think that he is a "fake" - but the concept of HH the Dalai Lama equates with Buddhism & Compassion.To pull that concept out of billions of people's mind is like almost saying Mother Teressa is a "fake" (just an example).
It will be easier to say "Hey look at these facts and videos and what is happening to people of different beliefs opposed by the TGIE, look at what Shugdepas are going through, what the Dalai Lama is saying and allowing to happened, why is the Dalai lama not stopping them???" The world would turn and look at these hard evidense which you can see with your own eyes, and they have and stil watching. That would raise reasonable doubt on whats up with HH Dalai Lama and these TGIE???
We don't have to stood so low like the pro Dalai Lama/anti shugden supporters who have been condemning our protector as "evil spirit" do we???
It's just my contemplation of another perspective of achieving the goal to LIFT/FADE the ban away without blaming put showing hard proofs - that one no can argue. Just spam and advertise all the hard case youtube videos and Dorje Shugden videos to educate people! :)
Put it on facebook etc. This whole thing about whether Dalai lama is real or fake or whatever at the end of the day is just speculations, but those real things that is happening.
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Well, one view is His Holiness is destroying his own reputation due to his samsaric actions. Another view is that he is doing this for another reason. He is doing this to make Dorje Shugden even bigger. Why? Dorje Shugden can benefit many, many, many beings in the future. He is clearing the karma for it.
You see when Yamantaka Tantras was brought to Tibet, it was ridiculed and made fun off. Nobody wanted to practice it because they just didn't think it was a Buddhist practice. Today, it is a mainstream higher Tantric Practice. Likewise, Dorje Shugden appear to be just a worldly spirit but it will one day become a mainstream Dharma Protector.
This is highly possible also!? Yes if Dorje Shugden can say via the Oracle to please be "patient" and do not disrespect the Dalai Lama like what Dharma defender said which I've also heard from a Tibetan friend, then why can't we trust in our protector and think positively that he is perhaps working hand in hand with the Dalai Lama to spread the teaching and getting many many people prepared for his coming???
I am certain HH knows what is happening now, how China will react to his statements and what people will say to what he is doing? I doubt he is so ignorant to not think of the seriousness of the consequences of what He is doing. If he is such a great deceptive leader to his people and has manage to get away so far, I would think he is a very smart person being able to fool the world! So a man of this kind of intellect would have calculated his risk before opening his mouth on the Ban?
I'm also sure He is well aware that he will not be around for far too long and like what HH himself has said and backed by what Karmapa also said that in future there may not be a need for the Dalai Lama to come back and be the political leader of the Tibetans as times are changing. So my logic says what does the Dalai Lama has to lose besides his reputation???
He puts a Ban on Dorje Shugden and creates havoc to some thousands so that millions can receive the practice in future without obstruction from anyone. At that time China would make Dorje Shugden a mainstream religious practice and by then No TGIE can say anything. Possible yes I think so. Just another perspective to look at :)
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That in it self I think (with so many evidence, news, youtubes, docs) carries more weight then saying the Dalai lama is a "fake". Because that is something you cannot really proof, there is no hard evidence except some monk saying so (from the book)
There's something wrong with the whole system, which has given rise to this whole problem. It's the system that needs to be changed, and that will fix the problem.
I am not talking about imposing a Western ideals of democracy or anything; I'm talking about Buddhism: If you're wearing robes, you need to get out of politics.
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I am not talking about imposing a Western ideals of democracy or anything; I'm talking about Buddhism: If you're wearing robes, you need to get out of politics.
Hear hear!
:)
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I do agree that politics and religion should not mix. This I can accept.
And perhaps the Dalai Lama also knows this and hence he said that there may not even be another Dalai Lama in the future for there is no need. So yes perhaps the Tibetan system is going through some kind of transition. Usually for something new to manifest, something better, (in this case for our protector Dorje Shugden to arise and become mainstream) there's always some kind of obstacles I believe. So in my opinion, this whole saga of the ban is just a phased that will soon past.
In so many ways, through some are unfortunate, by HHDL banning Dorje Shugden practice, he is infact making China promote it even more, bigger and wider. Now why would he not realise this if he really doesn't want the teaching to spread? Funny hu. It's like the more he says STOP practising the MORE China hypes it up. Not only that the whole world now knows about Dorje Shugden :)
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I do agree that politics and religion should not mix. This I can accept.
And perhaps the Dalai Lama also knows this ....
.... like the more he says STOP practising the MORE China hypes it up. Not only that the whole world now knows about Dorje Shugden :)
You are now using "inverted logic", using a theory of "twisted causality". It is no good to use that. At least, it is not Buddhist to use that.
This is because it is the same logic used by those parents who say that beating their kids is good for them, used by those who say that from their evil acts comes good results, and used by those who say that the God-or-whatever is good irrespective of how many he orders to be condemned or killed, for after all, the God works in mysterious ways. This idea of "inverted causality" or "twisted logic" goes against the common sentiments of common people, it goes against the Buddhist teachings of karma, and it philosophically requires an unproveable and unapproachable standard of moral judgement whereby morality is no longer validatable by any human standard, excepting the temporal opinions of the person who declares the unethical action to be somehow ethical in some unobservable way. It is therefore a mere rationalistic cover-up of one's personal preferred vices.
The Buddha never said or taught anything like that, and he never used that kind of strategy. The act, any act, ie karma, can be judged directly as what this very act evidently and immediately is; there is no "bigger game", no "mystical purpose", no "greater good", that could be quoted or used as a pretext of behaving unethically. Bad behaviour is simply bad behaviour. To say otherwise, is to practice politics. To say otherwise, is to use a "James Bond morality" where one has the licence to kill because one is said to work for the good guys. In the political world of James Bond, one can do bad for good, but in the karmical world of Buddhism, bad is bad and good is good.
There is nothing beyond the apparent. There is no hidden purpose. In Buddhism, that is.
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I do agree that politics and religion should not mix. This I can accept.
And perhaps the Dalai Lama also knows this ....
.... like the more he says STOP practising the MORE China hypes it up. Not only that the whole world now knows about Dorje Shugden :)
You are now using "inverted logic", using a theory of "twisted causality". It is no good to use that. At least, it is not Buddhist to use that.
This is because it is the same logic used by those parents who say that beating their kids is good for them, used by those who say that from their evil acts comes good results, and used by those who say that the God-or-whatever is good irrespective of how many he orders to be condemned or killed, for after all, the God works in mysterious ways. This idea of "inverted causality" or "twisted logic" goes against the common sentiments of common people, it goes against the Buddhist teachings of karma, and it philosophically requires an unproveable and unapproachable standard of moral judgement whereby morality is no longer validatable by any human standard, excepting the temporal opinions of the person who declares the unethical action to be somehow ethical in some unobservable way. It is therefore a mere rationalistic cover-up of one's personal preferred vices.
The Buddha never said or taught anything like that, and he never used that kind of strategy. The act, any act, ie karma, can be judged directly as what this very act evidently and immediately is; there is no "bigger game", no "mystical purpose", no "greater good", that could be quoted or used as a pretext of behaving unethically. Bad behaviour is simply bad behaviour. To say otherwise, is to practice politics. To say otherwise, is to use a "James Bond morality" where one has the licence to kill because one is said to work for the good guys. In the political world of James Bond, one can do bad for good, but in the karmical world of Buddhism, bad is bad and good is good.
There is nothing beyond the apparent. There is no hidden purpose. In Buddhism, that is.
kids that were disciplined using force seem to be more sucessful in later life, at least here in asia. hmm.
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We should respect the Dalai Lama just as we respect any sentient being. Dorje Shugden has not said anything through an oracle, as far as I know, about this issue and I've never heard Dorje Shugden express any opinion about the Dalai Lama, so we don't know what his view is. We certainly cannot respect what the Dalai Lama is doing.
I'll see if I can find the exact instance for you :) I'm pretty sure the following day after the monasteries tried to burn him, Dorje Shugden manifested via the oracle in Delhi and said we shouldn't disrespect the Dalai Lama. I myself have heard it a few times.
It's no good educating people about Dorje Shugden because most people simply believe what the Dalai Lama says, they don't want to hear that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha because they think he's a demon. The Dalai Lama has powerful speech and a good reputation. Most people have a high opinion of him and this is working against Shugden practitioners because, these days, many people lack the ability to analyse and come to logical conclusions - they just tend to align themselves with the person they have the highest opinion of, and generally that's the most famous person.
So, what to do? There's no alternative but to reduce the power of the Dalai Lama's speech by pointing out that he's being deceptive and is not what he appears to be. This, if it is believed, will 'wake people up' so that they aren't simply blindly believing what he says. I don't believe there's any other way to gain ground against the Dalai Lama, who's got an enormous head start in terms of public credibility. The only way is to destroy that credibility. The WSS is not saying anything that's not true. They are quoting from books, magazines and articles by many diverse authors. In reality, the Dalai Lama has destroyed his own reputation through his non-virtuous actions, but people are mesmerised by his public persona and don't see his deceptiveness. All that WSS is doing is making it clear for everyone to see. It's not a pretty picture, but it's a true one.
The language is, at times, emotive and that might be seen to detract from the message but I trust the skill of the people who wrote the book. I think it will touch those who need to be touched - generally those who aren't obsessively attached to the Dalai Lama and the need to see him as a holy being: in other words, the general public who are not his disciples.
Saying that, books, magazines and articles can lie too, it all depends on the author and clever paraphrasing. Yes, you're right, they are not saying anything that's not true but there are many ways to put facts across that are far less critical. http://dharmaprotector.org is a good example of this, as is emptymountain's post in http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=560.msg4433#msg4433.
I wouldn't agree with that regarding the general public and the book. People who pick up the book will be people who already have an interest in the issue. Thus the book will do nothing but cement people's false conviction that the Dalai Lama is all bad, or piss them off because you're insulting their living inspiration...okay, that's a half-truth as I've used the book to source for evidence to provide on other forums. However, I've never used the WSS style of language nor have I used the information to criticise the Dalai Lama.
My point: let's not try and win over the people who already hate Dorje Shugden, and look at the millions of other people who have never heard of him. Many many people don't necessarily believe in the Dalai Lama or have a stance on the issue. Those people don't need to hear about the horridness / holiness of the Dalai Lama, they need to learn about Dorje Shugden. Cement their faith in Dorje Shugden's practice alone (i.e. without the politics) and no matter what anyone says, no one will be able to shake that faith. Nor will they criticise the Dalai Lama and the lamas who support the ban, because they don't know the politics...so either way, their karma, guru samaya and Dorje Shugden 'wins'!
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My point: let's not try and win over the people who already hate Dorje Shugden, and look at the millions of other people who have never heard of him. Many many people don't necessarily believe in the Dalai Lama or have a stance on the issue. Those people don't need to hear about the horridness / holiness of the Dalai Lama, they need to learn about Dorje Shugden. Cement their faith in Dorje Shugden's practice alone (i.e. without the politics) and no matter what anyone says, no one will be able to shake that faith. Nor will they criticise the Dalai Lama and the lamas who support the ban, because they don't know the politics...so either way, their karma, guru samaya and Dorje Shugden 'wins'!
I like your point - which is mine exactly too. Personally for me, the Dalai Lama issue is separate from my practice. I respect the Dalai Lama as I respect all sangha from all lineages because of what they represent. The Dalai Lama's criticism of Dorje Shugden does not affect my practice because i have checked out Dorje Shugden myself and am satisfied that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Being. He was introduced to me by my Guru and I have full faith in my Guru. If only we can look at the character of Dorje Shugden and see him for who he is - an enlightened protector, the our faith will be like a vajra - unmoveable.
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My point: let's not try and win over the people who already hate Dorje Shugden, and look at the millions of other people who have never heard of him. Many many people don't necessarily believe in the Dalai Lama or have a stance on the issue. Those people don't need to hear about the horridness / holiness of the Dalai Lama, they need to learn about Dorje Shugden. Cement their faith in Dorje Shugden's practice alone (i.e. without the politics) and no matter what anyone says, no one will be able to shake that faith. Nor will they criticise the Dalai Lama and the lamas who support the ban, because they don't know the politics...so either way, their karma, guru samaya and Dorje Shugden 'wins'!
thats actually the smarter, wiser approach/
I like your point - which is mine exactly too. Personally for me, the Dalai Lama issue is separate from my practice. I respect the Dalai Lama as I respect all sangha from all lineages because of what they represent. The Dalai Lama's criticism of Dorje Shugden does not affect my practice because i have checked out Dorje Shugden myself and am satisfied that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Being. He was introduced to me by my Guru and I have full faith in my Guru. If only we can look at the character of Dorje Shugden and see him for who he is - an enlightened protector, the our faith will be like a vajra - unmoveable.
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Dear TK, Sorry for answering here your last message addressed to me, I don´t even know where to find it since the rythm of posts has been so intense in the last hours.
Just to tell you that of course I would like to share with you a cup of tea and have a good laugh. I thank you for your sympathy, but when I spoke of shame I didn´t mean that I suffered any personal shame myself, on the contrary, I´ve always felt very happy and saintly "proud" of belonging to this holy lineage; rather that one experiences a type of shame for the person who does something wrong, particularly if one has to speak about it.
I realize that I don´t have a relaxed attitude when I see Dharma being destroyed. And for me there's no way to help in any way anybody who is destroying Dharma, let alone finding justifications that make things worse, confusing innocent people about the most basic of the Buddha´s actions, which is to show beings what to keep and what to abandon.
No matter what, I do understand the reasons others might have for doing what you and the Noobs are doing: to twist Dharma principles to justify the Dalai Lama´s actions. I understand the reasons, particularly in your case and the case of Tibetans, I understand that you want to preserve the icon of your identity as a nation.
We Westerners have an old way of dealing with these type of things: we distinguish between attacking a tenet, an action, an attitude, and attacking a person. We don´t favor attacking the person, it´s called to go "ad hominem", to go against the human being. But we do retain the right to not agreeing and to attacking the actions. Difficult, but I find it quite wise.
Obviously many people do not act according to this pattern, thus the Noobs preaching against our supposed hatred against the Dalai Lama. Or some people actually expressing hatred against him. For the most part, the people in this website do not hate the Dalai Lama but do not agree with his actions. And his actions entailing the persecution of others, well, we have not only the right but the moral obligation to help the persecuted.
So we find it quite strange that a bunch of self proclaimed practitioners of the Protector come here as a group and try to destroy our actions aimed to protect the victims of the Dalai Lama. We might try to understand their intentions and even accept that they might be good intentions. But we disagree with their purpose.
This having been said, it´s clear that there is no debate possible. I don´t see in the new people (I think Noobs is short for newbies) the slightest intention of having a debate. A debate follows the path of reasoning. They are following, according to what Ensapa said, the instructions of a Lama. The path of faith in this case seems to preclude reasoning. So there is no way we can debate.
I have great appreciation for your kindness, TK. Thank you.
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Dear A Friend,
I fold my hands to you and I thank you for your beautiful message which I appreciate and it has touched my heart deeply.
Let me make some things clear to you please:
1. You have every right to be angry with the tenants and policies of the Dalai lama. What happened is very painful and very shocking. It hurts me too. I believe in the prophecy of Trijang Rinpoche that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are working hand in hand, but that DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T FEEL DISTRESSED, IN PAIN, HAVE ANGUISH, CONFUSED AND FEEL ISOLATED. I know Dorje Shugden is a Bodhisattva and his strength not to retaliate is what shows me who he is. My faith in him grows even more. I feel everything you and everyone else feels because I am just an ordinary person who met the Dharma and trying my best to practice.
2. You have every right to express your views and I do read them and contemplate it very much. I don't think negatively of your views nor feel bad about reading them. I do not judge your views, but take intense interest to learn more.
3. Other ppl on this forum are feeling what you feel is perfectly natural and alright. I pray that this horrible ban can be changed or just disappear. All of you/us do not deserve this.
4. I have no ill feelings towards you and other ppl who express their anger toward Dalai Lama. I understand deeply how you feel. Betrayal.
5.I am not on this forum to in ANY WAY INSULT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Why? Because we are the same lineage, same practice, same lamas, same protector. I am on your side. I have always been on your side and will remain that way. We have the same purpose.
6. I am not posting things to justify what the Dalai lama is doing. I am offering another view to perhaps help heal the pain, betrayal and disappointment. My posts are not meant to counter you or others who feel like you in any way. I do not wish to further the hurt you, or berate you or put your feelings down. You do not deserve that for all that you have gone through. Dharma is not easy in the world today to practice.
7. Whatever I post is not following the instructions of my lamas, but from my own dedication to my lamas and Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has helped me so much. I have many stories. It disturbs me deeply when Bodhisattvas like Pabongka, Trijang, Gangchen, Yongyal, Gonsar, Zong, Zemey, Dagom Rinpoches and other great beings are dragged through the dirt. I do not approve of that at all. I will counter that at every stop, but in a way that makes the anti-shugden ppl's minds calm down also in the end or die trying.
8. I will follow all of you in any way except the slander of the Dalai lama. Why? Dorje Shugden in trance through the oracles have advised us not to do so. It is on that reason and that reason alone I will not. I love Dorje Shugden tremendously. I can give my life for him if need be. So I will follow his instructions as long as I breathe. That is my reason and that is ok for me. I do not speak for anyone else because there are many factors involved, I understand.
9. I salute you and the others' strength, tenacity, stability, and perserverance in the Dharma during these difficult times. I fold my hands and bow to you and all of you humbly. Please never stop working, foruming, posting, writing, speaking for the cause of Dorje Shugden. He will prevail by the power of truth, karma and resultant karma in the near future. We will not be like the poor israelites who wandered in the Sinai desert for many more decades after recieving the covenant (ten commandments) from Moses on Mt Sinai.
10. I understand completely that you are distinguishing between attacking a tenant, an action, an attitude and the person. I understand you are attacking the actions. I fully understand and MAY I PLEASE SAY THAT I APPRECIATE THAT VERY VERY VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU AND ALL THE OTHERS. Really thank you.
Please forgive me if I have offended you of which I have no intention to from the beginning. I very much look forward to the forum daily/or as much as possible although I do have a busy schedule, but doing the forum is like doing my sadhanas/commitments daily. I feel something is missing if I don't.
I look forward to meeting all of you on the forum for many years into the future and learn so much from all your posts daily.
I truly feel indebted to all of you to spend so much time for our cause.
A friend, again, I would like to thank you for your beautiful post to me. I understand what you have written and appreciate it. Please keep in mind, whatever I will further write in the future is NEVER TO ATTACK YOU OR ANYONE, PLEASE REMEMBER THAT. It is not to attack your work nor put you or anyone down. I cannot do such a thing. It is beyond me.
I will write in my style for berating of Dorje Shugden to stop with my views and you will write for the same reasons with your views. Both our views are necessary as the audience is vast. Minds are attracted to different styles and approaches. You are not wrong. Your intent is excellent. Your motivation is excellent and your efforts will bear results.
Thank you again, I offer incense, serkym, and a candle to Dorje Shugden for you today. I request Dorje Shugden to bless you further for longer life, further growth and further realizations.
Much sincerity,
Tk
P.S. I will post this at other other threads where we have communicated so you can access it easily.
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What an incredibly disturbing book! It sure will stir up strange emotions in quite a lot of people regarding their view of the Dalai Lama. However, I love the history part of the book where it describes how Dorje Shugden arose amidst the controversy of the death of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. I would love to learn a little bit more of Dorje Shugden's history and practice in this book but I guess discrediting the Dalai Lama is of utmost importance. :-\
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Disturbing or not, did you find anything in the book untrue?
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Disturbing or not, did you find anything in the book untrue?
If we want to get down to the nitty gritty of things you can never really prove if the information is accurate or not - things can be quoted out of context, for example.
I agree with Big Uncle that it is "disturbing" but the issue for me was not about the facts but about the way the whole book was presented in such a militant and angry way. As someone who didn't know that much about the history, chronology of events etc, I was looking forward to reading the book to finding out more and I did appreciate the information it shared. But the rhetoric and the overly emotive language became very irritating after awhile and I felt it undermined the strength of their resources and information. They don't use their information as a tool but as something to just keep bashing on the reader's head throughout the whole book. To me, it made me rethink what it meant to be a DS practitioner - it actually saddened me and made me think, "this is how a DS practitioner writes??!?!?". It wasn't merely a "wrathful" method but to me, was just plain belligerence and quite aggressive in its nature
there are different ways to present the same information. This website for example presents a lot of information that is true and really shows what's going on in the Buddhist scene now, but it remains a certain stance of partiality that gives the reader a little room to BREATHE at least and form their own opinions and understanding of the situation. I respect the information here a lot more the Great Deception book because it respects the reader here and doesn't just force a view down your throat and treat the reader like a child!
all the same, I appreciate the amount of effort that must have gone into research and writing it. Can't deny there's heaps of info there that is useful to know. And I do hope it'll prompt many people to find out more about the situation themselves and eventually (yay) connect them to DS's holy practice :)
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How will the book, A Great Deception, going to '"prompt many people to find out more about the situation themselves and eventually (yay) connect them to DS's holy practice"?
xx
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ATTENTION TO ALL WEBSITE PARTICIPANTS AND DEVOTEES OF LORD DORJE SHUGDEN, THE SUPREME PROTECTOR OF LORD TSONGKAPA’S LINEAGE:
EVERYONE WHO LOVES DORJE SHUGDEN AND IS INVOLVED IN THIS GREAT WEBSITE SHOULD MAKE IT WELL KNOWN. IT IS ALSO A TRIBUTE TO ALL THE GREAT MASTERS THAT HAS UNDERGONE BROWBEATING FOR THIS PRACTICE FROM THEIR OWN SOCIETIES FOR OUR SAKES. HELPING THIS WEBSITE TO REACH MANY WILL BE HELPING DORJE SHUGDEN’S PRACTICE TO BECOME FIRM AND GROW. THIS WEBSITE IS A SUPPORT GROUP. NOT CONNECTED WITH ANY LAMAS, CENTRES, INDIVIDUALS, POLITICAL PARTIES AND HAS NO AGENDA EXCEPT TO SPREAD KNOWLEDGE ON DORJE SHUGDEN.
IDEAS TO GET THIS WEBSITE OUT INTO THE MAINSTREAM
1. ADVERTISE IT ON ANY EMAIL LISTING/FORUMS/SITES THAT YOU CAN THINK OF IN ANY CREATIVE WAYS.
2. CREATE LINKS TO THIS WEBSITE.
3. SEND OUT MASS EMAIL TO THE DHARMA ORGANIZATIONS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. AND LIST IN YOUR OWN DHARMA ORGANIZATION AND ITS BRANCHES. AFTER ALL THIS WEBSITE ISNT ENCOURAGING YOU TO JOIN ANY CENTRES, JUST CREATING AWARENESS.
4. EVERYONE SHOULD DO A SEARCH AND FIND AT LEAST 10 DHARMA CENTRES EACH AND EMAIL THEM THIS LINK AND SEND!!! CREATE AWARENESS. WE ARE NOT ASKING ANYONE TO GO ON RALLIES, PROTESTS OR DEMONSTRATIONS, BUT CREATING AWARENESS OF DORJE SHUGDEN THROUGH THIS WEBSITE. IT IS PEACEFUL METHODS TO ACHIEVE DHARMA ENDS. WE HAVE TO SPEAK UP THE RIGHT WAY. SO YOU CAN BE LOYAL TO YOUR OWN CENTRES AT THE SAME TIME CREATING MORE CONNECTIONS TO OTHER DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTIONERS. MANY ARE CONFUSED OR ARE THIRSTY FOR MORE KNOWLEDGE. THINK HOW YOU FELT BEFORE. THERE IS SO MUCH NEGATIVE PROPAGANDA, WE NEED TO SPEAK THE TRUTH WITHOUT AGENDA BEARING THE LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT IN MIND.
WE SHOULD ESPECIALLY SEND THIS WEBSITE TO CENTRES AND PPL WHO HAVE BECOME CONFUSED AND ‘GAVE’ UP THE PRACTICE. WE SHOULDN’T GIVE UP ON ANYONE. KNOWLEDGE WILL DISPELL DOUBTS.
5. WE SHOULD BE MORE INTERATCTIVE ON THIS FORUM MAKING IT VERY ‘ALIVE’ AND WELL KNOWN SO THAT OTHER BUDDHIST FORUMS WILL TAKE NOTICE. AND JOIN. MANY PARTICIPANTS ON OTHER BUDDHIST FORUMS ARE VERY NEW. SO THEY KNOW VERY LITTLE REGARDING THE DORJE SHUGDEN ISSUE, SO IF WE CAN 'GET' TO THEM FIRST WITH TRUE INFORMATION ON OUR PROTECTOR THEN TRUTH WILL SPREAD. DORJE SHUGDEN’S PRACTICE GROWS FASTER FOR THE BENEFIT OF MANY AS WAS THE WISH OF KYABJE PABONGKHA DORJE CHANG.
6. WE SHOULD SPREAD IT BY WORD OF MOUTH.
7. PUT UP NOTICES AT YOUR CENTRE'S BULLETIN BOARDS TO CREATE AWARENESS OF THIS WEBSITE. WE CAN TAKE HOUR OUT PER DAY TO DO OUR SADHANA. WELL THEN WE CAN TAKE 15 MINUTES OUT A DAY TO CREATE E-AWARENESS AS AN EXTENSION OF OUR SADHANA. SOMEBODY WORKED VERY HARD SO WE CAN PRACTICE AND RECEIVE THE BENEFITS OF DORJE SHUGDEN. SO WE IN TURN SHOULD TAKE THE TIME FOR OTHERS WHO WILL TREMENDOUSLY BENEFIT FROM HIS PRACTICE. AS IN THE 6 SIX PARAMITAS, APPLY THE OFFORT, ENTHUSIAM, WISDOM, PATIENCE, ETC FOR OTHERS VIA THIS WEBSITE.
8. WE CAN EVEN EMAIL THIS LINK TO NON-GELUGPA/GELUG CENTRES THAT OPPOSE DORJE SHUGDEN WHO WILL MOST LIKELY GRUDGINGLY LOOK AT IT AND DELETE THE LINK ASAP, BUT IT MIGHT JUST PENETRATE A FEW CURIOUS PPL. THAT WOULD CREATE MORE AWARENESS AMONG NON-GELUG PRACTIONERS/AND GELUGS THAT REJECT OUR DORJE SHUGDEN. WHAT COULD IT HURT?? AT LEAST THEY WILL KNOW THAT CONTRARY TO THE WISHES OF OPPOSING FORCES, DORJE SHUGDEN IS GROWING AND THEIR ATTEMPTS ARE NOT SUCCESSFUL.
9. WE SHOULD LOOK UP THE GREAT LAMAS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD WHO PRACTICE DORJE SHUGDEN AND OFFER THEM, THEIR CENTRE AND STUDENTS AWARENESS OF THIS WEBSITE. WE SHOULD EVEN HAVE THEM SEND A NOTE OF BLESSING AND ENCOURAGEMENT. IT WOULD BE FANTASTIC TO GET A NOTE OF ENCOURAGEMENT POSTED ON THIS WEBSITE FROM THESE GREAT LAMAS. WOW, WHAT A BLESSING. WE CAN LOOK UP AT THE LINEAGE AND GREAT MASTER PICTURES OF THIS WEBSITE AND DO A SEARCH AND START WRITING TO THESE MASTERS TO DROP A NOTE OF ENCOURAGEMENT THAT WE CAN POST UP.
10. SEND MORE INFORMATION, WRITEUP, PHOTOS, INSPIRATIONAL NEWS, NEWS OF HOW DORJE SHUGDEN HAS HELPED YOU SPECIFICALLY TO THIS WEBSITE AND THE WEBMASTER CAN POST UP. YOU CAN EVEN TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE PPL WHO OPPOSED THE PRACTICE AND HOW THEY DISCOURAGED YOU WITHOUT USING THEIR NAMES OF COURSE. LET OTHERS KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT ALONE.
11. A SPECIAL SECTION IN THIS WEBSITE SHOULD BE PUT UP THAT HAS SPECIAL INSPIRATIONAL STORIES OF HOW DORJE SHUGDEN HAS HELPED YOU SPECIFICALLY. OR HOW YOU DID THE PRACTICE. OR WHAT PROBLEMS, CRISIS AND DIFFICULTIES DID DORJE SHUGDEN HELP YOU OVERCOME.
THAT WOULD BE FANTASTIC. I KNOW MANY WOULD ENJOY READING IT AND FEEL INSPIRED. AS PART OF THE ADMIN, I MYSELF HAD HUGE JOB PROBLEM YEARS AGO AND DORJE SHUGDEN HELPED ME OVERCOME ALMOST INSTANTLY UPON PRAYER. I WAS INTRODUCED TO DORJE SHUGDEN BY A SPECIAL FREIND AND WHEN I PRAYED TO HIM WITHIN A WEEK I GOT A JOB TO SUPPORT MY PRACTICE. THAT IS MY OWN REAL EXPERIENCE.
12. WE ENJOY THE INVOLVEMENT IN THIS WEBSITE, THE INTERACTION AND THE DISCUSSIONS, WELL THERE ARE PLENTY MORE OUT THERE WHO WOULD ALSO. LET THEM KNOW ABOUT IT. LET THEM KNOW THAT THIS WEBSITE EXISTS.
TAKE THE TIME AND CARE OUT TO DO WHAT WE HAVE RECOMMENDED TO SHOW ONE FACET OF YOUR DEVOTION TO DORJE SHUGDEN AND CARE TOWARD HIS 'OPPRESSED' PRACTIONERS WHO ARE OUR DHARMA BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
13. WE SHOULD ASK FRIENDS TO TRANSLATE THIS WEBSITE BY PARTS INTO OTHER LANGUAGES AND SUBMIT TO THE ADMIN TO POST UP HAVING AN INTERANTIONAL LANGUAGE SECTION. IT WOULD PENETRATE MORE PPL AND LANGUAGES. WOW!!!
THOSE ARE JUST SOME OF OUR IDEAS AND WOULD LIKE TO REQUEST EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM TO POST OTHER IDEAS AND GET ACTIVE AND DOING SOMETHING TO SPREAD THE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS FANTASTIC WEBSITE. WE DONT HAVE MANY DORJE SHUGDEN WEBSITES, SO WE SHOULD CHERISH THIS ONE AND MAKE IT GROW.
WITH FOLDED HANDS, PLEASE LETS CREATE AWARENESS FELLOW PRACTIONERS OF OUR POWERFUL DORJE SHUGDEN. THINK HOW MANY PPL HE CAN FURTHER BENEFIT IF ONLY MORE KNEW ABOUT HIM. AND THIS WEBSITE CAN HELP IN CREATING THAT AWARENESS. THAT IS OUR FIRST AND ONLY PURPOSE IN SPENDING HUNDREDS OF HOURS TO CREATE THIS WEBSITE.
WE KIND OF 'OWE' TO DORJE SHUGDEN TOO. WE OWE TO ALL THOSE WHO NEED HELP ON THEIR DHARMA PATH. WE ARE ALWAYS PRAYING TO DORJE SHUGDEN AND HIS FANTASTIC ENTOURAGE FOR HELP, HOW ABOUT IF WE 'HELP' HIS PRACTIONERS NOW BY CREATING MORE AND MORE AWARENESS. BY KNOWLEDGE, IN TIME DORJE SHUGDEN’S OPPOSITION RELENTS AND HIS PRACTICE BECOMES MAINSTREAM ACCEPTABLE. LET MAKE THAT A REALITY. WHY NOT? HOW? BY CREATING MORE PRACTITIONERS. THAT IS SO BENEFICIAL TO THEM AND MANJUNATHA TSONGKAPA’S HOLY INFALLIBLE LINEAGE.
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As I was saying, it is up to us to solve the problem presented to us and overcome the obstacles fearlessly and with open definance against those who drag Lord Shugden's name through the mud.
Meditate for Right Actions with Our Right Thoughts and the Magnificent results will astound us all and we can justifiy the Joyful Celebration of Our Masters and We Defended Them as They requested.
Have you noticed the Gandan Declaration with All the Masters On One Page.Check it out!
What more could one want than to see the Masters Standing Together In Definace They Know The Truth and Guide Us to do What We Must.
'
We have this prescious life and the Honor to Defend the Lineage is as much as anyone here could ever hope for to obtain in one life to Defend The Master's Lineage.
Stand your ground and let us shout down these Deceivers.We are not Alone.
Feel the breath and smell the freshness of the Protector as he calls you forth, no denying when this happens that it is you that must turn the Wheel of the Dharma for Everyone!
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Check out Western Shugden and goldenmala latest video "The Dalai Lama and Feudal Theocrac in Tibet"
http://shugdensociety.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/the-dalai-lama-and-feudal-theocracy-in-tibet/
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Here's the photos and article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1251888/Dalai-Lama-meet-Barack-Obama-U-S-defies-protests-China.html
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/02/19/article-1251888-085B6DAA000005DC-305_634x467.jpg)
(http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/0219-dalai-lama/7423941-1-eng-US/0219-dalai-lama_full_600.jpg)
(comments removed because they were judged to be offensive)
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Now now, let us not get spiky.
The same photos could just as well be used to show that "the DL is a humble monk, who does not require grandiosity, but remains unattached to the samsaric entrapments", or to show that "the DL is a Mahasiddha who walks in the gutters of samsara while remaining untarnished by it".
So please, mind your manners, and mind your mind.
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Thanks Lineagholder! Two pictures are better than two thousand words!
Perfect Photo Opt for a Despot!
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Dear Lineageholder,
There is no need for this type of display. Wrathful actions is one thing, to diminish your own dignity is another. Dear friend, let's forget the attacks against the WSS and let's try to do the same but better. What we have to do is too important to tarnish it with bad taste. You can leave the photos without comments, we are all grown ups and can draw the conclusions that we wish. Please remember that I am on your side.
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How will the book, A Great Deception, going to '"prompt many people to find out more about the situation themselves and eventually (yay) connect them to DS's holy practice"?
xx
I'd hope that people out there who might change across this book will be intrigued to find out more as the extent of the issue and events do go far beyond the book (e.g. what happens after the book is published?). They may be prompted to find out more about WHO DORJE SHUGDEN REALLY IS and start more doing research on his lineage, history, the practices, prayers the lamas who practice him .... heck maybe they'll chance upon this website where there is a lot of other information that is not covered in the book (that's not to say the book doesn't have a lot of information but there are things that were not covered).
Perhaps it may prompt people to engage in more discussion and find out more from DS practitioners (such as on this website or even within their own communities (Dharmic or not). It may draw their attention to more information on the media, on the internet etc Ultimately, it may even lead to them finding their own teachers and joining the Dharma. After all, that is what Dorje Shugden would want most - for people to study the Dharma. So if people do find their own Lamas and begin some practice (even from an initial link through the book), that would be wonderful.
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Hi Honeydakini
Thanks for answering my question; and thanks for even noticing that I asked one! (Quite of bit of excitement seemed to happen on this thread directly after my post :) )
I really cannot understand how AGD can help spread the practice of Dorje Shugden throughout the world. Do we think someone reading about the issue for the first time will think: 'Hey, cool! Broken communities, broken families, betrayal, broken lineages, conditions of material and spiritual suffering, hey-I should start to practice Dorje Shugden! - How do I get in on that action? where can I start to practice?'.
Can one really develop faith that way? Is so, how rare that would be.
Please do not find me difficult. I just do not understand this view of how a schism can cause a religion to flourish.
xx
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I really cannot understand how AGD can help spread the practice of Dorje Shugden throughout the world.
Good observation, for nobody can understand that. But ah, please notice, that the AGD is not meant to do that. (At least according to me.) It is not a book made to promote anything positive (DS-practice), but a book made to stop something negative (destruction of DS-practice). To use an agricultural metaphor, the book is not meant to provide fertilizers for anything beneficial to grow, but to pluck the weeds and stones from the fields where that something yummy is trying to grow. The tone of the book is negative because it is designed to act negatively upon negative things. (I personally do not like the stylistical tone of the book, but nevertheless, a little DDT might just keep the pesky pests away, for after all, no organic method or any soft way has worked during these three decades of pestilence.)
It is true that some, maybe even you, feel that the DS-whatever is to be promoted, as if Dharmapalas would be like Messiahs, but most of us practitioners do not feel that way. For us, all that we ask, is that the DL stops throwing stones and weed seeds onto our little patches of gardens. The moment he stops harming, we stop yapping.
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I completely agree that the purpose of AGD is to stop the ban and not to promote Dorje Shugden practice. I have read the book and am clear on the four points it aims to achieve. Promoting the practice does not seem to be one of the objectives on the book. I reckon that promoting DS practice is an interesting view to superimpose on that particular book. Just wondering where the idea came from I guess.
As a matter of fact, I do not understand how the ban or this whole controversy in any way can be a tool to promote Dorje Shugden. I have seen lots of sort of vague ideas, but nothing that really makes sense to me. So I ask for clarification. I don't want to argue, I want to listen and understand where exactly this view comes from...and well, sure, debate it.
From my point of view: the Dalai Lama is a living being and an object of love and compassion -absolutely. But he is harming others and he needs to be told to stop -with as strong of words as we can muster. (I can't think where I would be now if in my youth, I did not have the kindness of my mum hollering at me from time to time to scare me away from some destructive action I had commenced. And believe you me....she could holler!!!!)
The only way I can see this issue promoting Dorje Shugden practice is in the heart of each practitioner who understands the need to protect this lineage from degenerating. Really, if we did not have Dorje Shugden how would we ever be able be able to tell the DL to stop harming, stop lying? I would be impossible.
We need Dorje Shugden and the DL needs Dorje Shugden. Personally, I believe the mantra 'stop lying' goes directly to the DL's heart - or as close as it can get. I confidently holler 'stop lying' AT the DL FOR the DL on Dorje Shugden's behalf.
One day I may even be able to holler louder than my mum could. That would have quick results.
xx
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Western Shugden SocietyFebruary 21, 2010
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche Quotes about Dorje Shugden
goldenmala
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche was also the root lama of many Gelug Lamas who teach in the West including Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, Lama Yeshe, and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Geshe Kelsang has likened Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to “a vast reservoir from which all Gelugpa practitioners of the present day received ‘waters’ of blessings and instructions,” and the FPMT describes him as “one of the foremost Tibetan Buddhist masters of our time.
” It is widely acknowledged that “Without his help the situation of Tibetan Buddhism in general and in particular of the tradition of Master Je Tsongkhapa would be in quite a different state.”
He Defended the Dharma,
Just like all of You!
Western Scions of Dharma Speak,
In Defense of the Precepts!
A great number of present-day Tibetan Buddhist masters are his students and “whatever they have accomplished, they owe it directly or indirectly to the great kindness of this master, who stands out as one of the most unforgettable figures in the history of Tibet and its Buddhism.”
These Living Treasures Shower Blessing and Guidance For All
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The Dalai Lama group published an article, China's Claim that 'Old Tibet' was a Feudal Serfdom is Fiction, on Jan. 4, 2010. The article claimed that before 1949, "Tibet was neither an ideal society nor a feudal serf system", describing old Tibet as a beggar-free rule-of-law society without famine in which tenants were wealthy and the economy was self-sufficient. The article claimed that, compared with China at the same time -- and even China of today -- Tibet was a "far more civil society".
It has been unprecedented for the Dalai Lama group to ignore the historical facts and to openly hail its feudal serfdom past which was similar to Europe's Dark Ages. Such an audacious move was also thought-provoking.
I. It was the consensus of the international community that old Tibet was ruled by the theocracy implementing feudal serfdom.
Whether or not Tibet before 1959 was ruled with a feudal serfdom system by the theocracy should not to decided by those speaking on behalf of the interests of serf-owners. Chinese and foreign historical archives, as well as research by professional scholars, is what is most persuasive.
OLD TIBET'S FEUDAL SERFDOM IN TIBETAN LANGUAGE WRITINGS
Many Tibetan language archives have records that prove the existence of serfdom in old Tibet.
A permanent residency license issued to local serfs and administered by the Common Assembly(Bla-spyi) of Drepung Monastery in Lhasa, which is held by the Tibet Historical Archives Anthology, said:
"All male and female slaves, land, and meadows donated by serfs belong to the monastery's Losel-ling College. In addition, serfs are not allowed to lease their land to others before reporting it to the college, and slaves are not allowed to escape. Serfs are not allowed to marry those administered by other monasteries for fear of serf loss, and they should behave themselves and pay their corvee taxes to the monastery on time."
This archive proves the following facts: Firstly, the license issued by the Drepung Monastery openly admitted that serfs existed in old Tibet and slaves in monasteries were property and did not have any individual freedoms.
Secondly, serfs were confined within the monastery's territory and were not allowed to move out.
Thirdly, serfs did not have the marriage freedom.
Finally, serfs were merely talking tools that would only pay corvee taxes to the monastery.
OLD TIBET'S FEUDAL SERFDOM IN CHINESE LANGUAGE WRITINGS
There were also records on Tibet's social system in Chinese writings from the late Qing Dynasty (1644-1912) to 1949. They showed objectively the basic features of a feudal serfdom society.
For instance, when author and scholar Chen Jianfu talked about "classes among Tibetan people" in his book "Tibetan Issues," published in 1937, he said: "Noble families extend their control over most parts of Tibet. They have the money and power, and rule the land hand in hand with the monasteries. They act like an exclusive class. ... The nobles are cruel to their tenants, who constantly suffer from beatings that leave them covered with cuts and bruises and afraid to revolt." Moreover, "tenants have no freedom as they are restrained by their landlords."
According to "New History of Tibet," compiled by Xu Guangshi and Cai Jincheng in 1911, "some 41 articles of Tibet's criminal law were derived from the region's local customs, many of which are extremely brutal." "Criminals who commit robbery or homicide shall be sentenced to death, no matter whether they are the principal culprit or not. The culprit will be tied to a pillar and be shot to death with arrows, or he or she will be beheaded and the chopped-off head will be shown to the public. Or the culprit would be forced alive into a cave of scorpions. For those who commit theft, their family members will be detained, and the suspects will be ordered to compensate a figure several times the value of the thievery. Then his or her eyes will be gouged out, the nose cut off, or hands and feet will be chopped off."
These writings showed old Tibet was a theocracy comprised of the nobility and the leading monks. Extremely brutal criminal law was exercised in the region and tenants were deprived of personal freedom
THE OLD TIBET'S FEUDAL SERFDOM IN EYES OF FOREIGNERS
Many foreigners travelled in Tibet in the period from the late Qing Dynasty (1644-1911) to 1949. Some recorded what they saw and heard. The writings describe a backward, stagnant society based on feudal serfdom.
Edmund Candler, a British national, wrote in his book, The Unveiling of Lhasa: "The people are medieval, not only in their system of government and their religion, their inquisition, their witchcraft, their incantations, their ordeals by fire and boiling oil, but in every aspect of their daily life."
Another Briton, Charles Bell, who spent much time in Tibet in the 1920s, wrote in his book, Tibet Past and Present, that old Tibet was still in the feudal stage:
"The nobles of Tibet exercise great power and influence... The nobility, side by side with the leading priests, rule the land. Like the monasteries, they own large landed estate."
French explorer Alexander David-Neel said in his book, Old Tibet Faces A New China: "All the farmers in Tibet are serfs saddled with lifelong debts, and it is almost impossible to find any of them who have paid off their debts."
An Indian scholar, R. Rahul said, "Peasants in (old) Tibet, particularly those on the estates belonging to the aristocracy and the monasteries, are in a sense serfs."
An American scholar, Dorsch Marie de Voe, talked about how the serf owners conducted spiritual control by using religion in his article, The Donden Ling Case: An Essay on Tibetan Refugee Life With Proposals for Change. He wrote: "From a purely secular point of view, this doctrine must be seen as one of the most ingenious and pernicious forms of social control ever devised. To the ordinary Tibetan, the acceptance of this doctrine precluded the possibility of ever changing his or her fate in this life. If one were born a slave, so the doctrine of karma taught, it was not the fault of the slaveholder but rather the slaves themselves for having committed some misdeeds in a previous life. In turn, the slaveholder was simply being rewarded for good deeds in a previous life. For the slave to attempt to break the chains that bound him, or her, would be tantamount to a self-condemnation to a rebirth into a life worse than the one already being suffered." A large number of records show that old Tibet was a theocratic feudal serfdom society.
II. The Dalai Lama group's description of old Tibet totally ignores historical fact.
The Dalai Lama group's glorification of old Tibet's social conditions in their article flies in the face of truth for the following reasons:
-- Describing the severe punishment and harsh laws based on old Tibet's strict hierarchy as an "advanced" and "civilized" rule of law.
In order to glorify the old Tibet legal system, the Dalai Lama group claims in the article that the "legal system, and the rule-of-law (in the old Tibet), became more advanced over the centuries," and that the essence of old Tibet's laws were that "the rulers should act as parents to their subjects," which was reflected in the "Thirteen Guidelines of Procedure and Punishment," and other codes of laws issued by the old Tibet's rulers. "On the whole the system worked equally well for rich and poor (in the old Tibet)," they said.
However, these codes of laws, which were practiced in old Tibet for centuries, divided people into different social ranks. According to the rank, the value of the lives of the higher ranked people, such as princes and living Buddhas, was equal to their body weight in gold.
For the lower ranked, such as women, butchers, hunters and craftsmen, the value of their lives was equal to a straw rope. Courts and prisons were set up by the local governments of old Tibet, as well as by big monasteries. Religious and secular landlords were entitled to set up their own private jails. Punishment was extremely savage and cruel at the time, and included the gouging out of eyes, the chopping off of hands or legs, the pulling out of tendons, skinning and drowning. U.S. scholar Tom Grunfeld once quoted a Briton who lived for two decades in old Tibet as saying that she had witnessed countless eyes gouging and mutilations, while another in the late 1940s reported that "all over Tibet I have seen men who had been deprived of an arm or a leg for theft."
-- Describing the extremely backward and poverty-stricken feudal serfdom society as a "self-sufficient" one.
The Dalai Lama group claimed in the article that the old Tibet was an "economically self-sufficient" society. "A very small percentage of the population - mostly in Central Tibet - were tenants. They held their lands on the estates of aristocrats and monasteries, and paid rent to the estate-holders in kind or in physical labor," the Dalai group wrote in the article, suggesting that those tenants were "relatively wealthy and were sometimes even in the position of loaning money or grain to the estate."
However, the fact was that all the arable land, pastures, forests, mountains, rivers and beaches, and most of the livestock in old Tibet were owned by government officials, aristocrats, and high-ranking monks, as well as their representatives. These people made up only five percent of old Tibet's population. Meanwhile, tenants, who had no means of production and personal freedom and survived by working on rented land, made up about 90 percent of the population. Another five percent of the population had been slaves for generations, and were regarded as "tools that speak."
According to statistics from the 17th century during China's Qing Dynasty, Tibet had about 200,000 hectares of arable land. About 30.9 percent of the land was possessed by the local feudal government, 29.6 percent owned by aristocrats, and 39.5 percent by monasteries and high-ranking monks. The dominance of the means of production by the above three classes in old Tibet did not change ever since that time.
In his book, "Tibet Past and Present," Sir Charles Bell wrote that children were sometimes stolen from parents to become slaves in the old Tibet. Parents who were too poor to support their children would also sell them in exchange for sho-ring, or "price of mother's milk," to other people, who would bring up the children, keep them, or sell them again as slaves, he said. He also wrote in the book "Portrait of a Dalai Lama: the Life and Times of the Great Thirteenth" that the spread of diseases "caused the population, so sorely needed, to grow less and less. The huge number of monks, who are celibate, leads to the same result. Pneumonia, goiter, influenza and smallpox are also prevalent, the last being greatly dreaded... Children have to rough it in food and other ways, and many die young."
The Dalai Lama group said in the article that "throughout her history Tibet never experienced famine and the number of beggars could be counted with your fingers." In fact, due to its low levels of abilities to resist natural disasters, and the corrupted reign of the feudal serfdom under theocracy, the old Tibet was hit by various levels of snow and frost disasters as well as wars and plagues almost every year. Aside from Buddhist prayers, there was no effective way to deal with those natural and man-made disasters, which often led to famine, mass deaths of people and livestock, widespread disease, and the rampant presence of beggars. Flocks of beggars, including the old, women and children, could be seen in Lhasa, Xigaze, Chamdo, and Nagqu in old Tibet. According to statistics, of the 37,000 people living in Lhasa before the peaceful liberation of Tibet, about 5,000 were beggars.
-- Glorifying monasteries under the theocracy in old Tibet as model of traditional moral life.
The Dalai Lama group claimed in the article that "the role of monasteries as highly disciplined centers of Tibetan education and intellectual hubs was central to the traditional Tibetan way of life." But in fact, before the Democratic Reform of Tibet, monasteries occupied about 1.21 million ke of farmland (15 ke equal to 1 hectare) and possessed large numbers of livestock and pastures.
The three monasteries of Drepung, Sera and Gandan housed over 10,000 monks, with a possession of 321 estates, up to 10,000 ke of farmland, 450 pastures, 110,000 livestock, and more than 60,000 serfs. Monasteries were also the biggest usurers in old Tibet.
According to the book "Tibetan Interviews," by U.S. journalist Anna Louise Strong, one fourth of Drepung monastery's total income came from usury lending, with an interest rate much higher than the apparent 20 percent.
Strong said that when herdsmen could not afford to pay back the loans, they would enter serfdom for 25 years, of which only a few could survive hard living conditions.
The late 10th Panchen Lama once said in April 1988, when interviewed by the National Unity magazine, that in old Tibet monks and landlords had prisons and private jails: "The punishment was extremely savage and cruel at that time, including the gouging out of eyes, the chopping off of hands or legs, the pulling out the tendons and drowning. Gandan, one of the biggest monasteries in Tibet, had lots of torture instruments such as handcuffs, fetters and sticks," he said.
In conclusion, the fact that old Tibet was reigned by the theocratic feudal serfdom is undeniable. The reason why the Dalai Lama group try so hard to defend the social system of old Tibet is that they have always stood for the backward theocratic feudal serfdom, representing the interests of feudal serf-owners. They staged an armed separatist rebellion in 1959 to try to save the system. And they have never given up their dream of restoring serfdom rule in Tibet since they fled abroad.
Nowadays, the dark rule of the theocratic feudal serfdom in old Tibet has been examined by more and more people, and thus the Dalai Lama group have to make up all kinds of lies to cover the truth and defraud the public.
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What kind of project? No need of long explanation. Thanks!
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Dear Lhakpa Gyaltshen,
Thank you for the explanation above. Old Tibet definitely needs to change.
TK
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Thankyou for the article Lhakpa Gyaltshen. Can you clarify a couple of things for me?
Who are 'The Dalai Lama Group'? When did they arise? Under who's auspices do they now operate?
Was Lhasa 'peacefully liberated'? As clear as my stand is against the DL's policies, I've heard much of the atrocities inflicted by the Chinese on the Tibetan population also. Not to deny their provision of physical amenities etc, but if a liberation is peaceful then it musn't use violence against those being liberated.
You say that the massive monk population affected the population's ability to reproduce, and then say that the population of the three main monasteries equalled 10 000. This doesn't seem much of a dent in a pupulation of 6000 000?
Thank you for your time clarifying these points.
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Who are 'The Dalai Lama Group'? When did they arise? Under who's auspices do they now operate?
I don't want to pre-empt Thom's response, but here's the link to the original article:
http://www.tibet.net/en/index.php?id=1334&articletype=flash&rmenuid=morenews&tab=1
It was written by the 'CTA', Central Tibetan Administration, or in other words, the Tibetan Government in Exile. It's an official statement.