Author Topic: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society  (Read 50509 times)

spacelike

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2009, 02:44:11 AM »
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And yes, the demos were effective, and maybe the book is going to be effective, but we are yet to encounter their side effects. And these might've been avoided, had the people in charge been more open to other voices. Like Beggar's voice, for instance, and other voices from us, people of the lineage.


To dear A Friend

It seems possible that the authors have been open to other voices.  The pamphlet was a year ago, and the book is quite different.  Some sections from the pamphlet are included but the language has changed and is more moderate.
I hear the website is also going to change to bring it into line with the new book and will include extensive factual archives and press clippings.
It would be interesting to see what you think when you've read the book. 

love Spacelike
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 03:40:11 AM by spacelike »

crazycloud

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2009, 04:04:45 AM »

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I think you mix the meaning of nuances in thought with contradiction.

ha ha! Very good!

yes, I sense an absolute embarrassment of nuance in your positions!

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Like Zhalmed Pawo, I didn't read the book but read the pamphlet produced last year. The serious objections I had about it I still have.

I had what I imagine to be similar objections initially. Saffron robed Muslim?!?! For goodness' sake! But I have reflected extensively on how comfortable we are with the unconventional behavior of mahasiddhas safely tucked away in the dim recesses of history. We LOVE to read about Tilopa (Killer), or Padmasambhava (liar, scoundrel), Ghantapa (humilated the king, flew into a rage, name calling, drunk, sybarite) Marpa (sadist). But what do we do when we come face to face with actions that really challenge our preconceptions, without the safety the canon telling us, "ah, that was all ok, he was a Mahasiddha?" Don't let the opportunity to put your rep on the line for the Lineage pass you by!If we don't stand up, Forcefully, now, there will be no need to worry about the obstructions our lama's will face in the future, our lineage will dry up and disappear.

If these Guru's aren't realized beings, the lineage is already lost, so better to go in search of a new one. if they are, better follow and feel joyful confidence, like Naropa stealing soup (Illegal, against precepts) or slapping the princess (hostile, agressive). I'm sure Naropa lost a few potential devotees on those occasions, but his lineage did alright, after all.

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They are in this website, buried somewhere, and I don't intend to repeat them here among other things because I know it to be useless.

Probably true. When the generals are charging, it doesn't do much good for the privates to express their concern from the trenches.... especially as the opponent is starting to break ranks and flee.

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Allow me to introduce a bit of humor, but some will agree with me that the amount of infallibility in the WSS is only rivaled by the amount of infallibility in the DL.

You may be right. On the other hand, you may not.

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No matter what, I'm worried about the obstacles we are creating for our Lamas to be able to teach basic Buddhist concepts like the three poisons, since hatred is so easily showed and could be pointed at to refute our teachings.

my local Dharma center is THRIVING due to Dharmapala's blessings. We lost a few around the demos, but have doubled in size since then. I'd put my worries to rest, friend. Even if you get to teach the three poisons, if your lineage is gutted, it has no benefit. It's like giving someone an umbrella with a big hole, it's useless. Like HHDL. He can teach the three poisons al day, but he has no lineage blessing, so eventually any lineage he starts will die out. So sad. and I mean that, it's not a rhetorical device to scorn, it's really very tragic.

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And yes, the demos were effective, and maybe the book is going to be effective, but we are yet to encounter their side effects. And these might've been avoided, had the people in charge been more open to other voices. Like Beggar's voice, for instance, and other voices from us, people of the lineage.

Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, no way to avoid side effects.  There is no doubt your voice was heard, and many, many, saying the same thing. The view your voice represented was just not favored by many Lamas.  I just rejoice in their good results, where no other good results have been seen these last 20 years.

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I am saying this because it should be known that we are not of one voice and still we accept each other, a good refutation of the accusation of being sectarian or dogmatic, don't you think?

My feeling is that our views are probably not so very far apart, and that we can easily accept one another's stances. Sure, let's stay together, like Al Green. You can be a crazy-cloud and I will be a friend.

a friend

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2009, 05:27:31 AM »
 ;)

emptymountains

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 12:21:09 PM »
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Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, no way to avoid side effects.

That's a very good analogy--it helps my mind.

a friend

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2009, 09:55:16 PM »
 :D ;D :D This is wonderful, that a mind can be helped with such a simple device.
... We might not always be in agreement, but I like to hear your voices.

This having been said, dear friends, I'm not the private under any of the decision-makers in the WSS, and they are not my generals, the main reason for it being that I don't even know them. Also I have to say that realizations are not a guarantee of infallibility in all matters, particularly not in matters of such endeavours as communications with the West, expression, manners, use of language. So I still hold the opinions expressed before.
Nevertheless, I really wish with all my heart that the excellent intentions be fulfilled and the side effects be nul, or at least as negligible as the breaking of eggs for an omelette.
 

a friend

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2009, 10:18:47 PM »
Dear Spacelike,
Thank you for your kind message. I hope the dose of moderation you perceive in the book diminishes the color of "DL's hater" that Zhalmed Pawo perceived in the website. In that case, would it be too much to ask that when they introduce changes to the website they suppress the pamphlet and instead put the same concepts in the more moderate language of the book?


LosangKhyentse

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 08:08:42 AM »
Dear everyone,

With respect to everyone, I think, it is better everyone reads the book first then comment. You will have more indepth insight. Just reading the pamphlet is not enough.

WSS has a strong voice. I am not a part of them, but they are hardworking and courageous.

TK

emptymountains

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2009, 12:37:59 PM »
I plan on doing a book review on my blog; hopefully the book will be here this week.

Lineageholder

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2009, 08:09:41 PM »
I've read the book many times now, it's strong medicine to cure a particular problem.

Although the Dalai Lama talks about love, compassion, tolerance, respect and dialogue, in truth he doesn't understand the meaning of these words except for the respect and good reputation it earns him.  He doesn't respond to 'please' and 'have you ever considered...?'  I'm sorry to have to say this but he only understands threats.  In the beginning, he and the TGIE were so arrogant as to believe they were untouchable and above the law.  They didn't need to engage in dialogue with spirit worshippers or make compromises.  I guess that the Dorje Shugden Society, Kundeling and the WSS have taught him otherwise but he still hasn't learned the lesson he needs to stop being a threat to Dharma in this world.   The only thing he understands is his own power and reputation and hurting these is the only way to emasculate him and remove the cancer of political interference from Tibetan Buddhism.

The book is very well researched, well written and backed up with quotes from lots of reliable third party authors and books.  It's strong, but it's the truth.  It doesn't pull any punches.  It calls the Dalai Lama, Samdhong and the Abbots of the monasteries that were party to ostracising Shugden practitioners 'criminals wearing spiritual masks'.  It's strong, but it's the truth.  It's time the truth was told. 

The Kagyu tradition have already had to suffer because of the political interference by the Dalai Lama and now it's the Gelugpa's turn.  He won't stop at anything to weaken and destroy the traditions of Tibetan Buddhism until he's the boss of his own brand of Buddhism and destroyed the path to enlightenment for countless living beings, so something has to give. It's time to turn the spotlight on the Dalai Lama's shameful activities and in doing so,  protect the holy Dharma.

It's time to be courageous and do what has to be done.

godi

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2009, 08:21:25 PM »
this book is great.

iloveds

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2010, 06:45:42 AM »
I found this book interesting in the issues raised about Lamaism, and the deity Dorje Shugden. While the debate has raged since 1978, many people in the west may not have heard anything about the course of events, or whether there is truth in the actions of HHDL being exposed by WSS.

All credit to them for their documentation, but I can't help feeling a sense of biasness towards their views, that I'm left with an ugly taste in my mouth reminiscent of sour grapes. What could have come out an objective read for me turned quickly into a blame game towards HHDL. Once that tone was set, I found it difficult to even believe the facts quoted or even the truthfulness of their claims.

I have checked out dorjeshugden[dot]com, and antishugdenp[dot]com and I am still not convinced that the issues are as they seem. If you understand the system of vows / commitments, guru devotion, lineage and many other buddhist concepts you too will find it difficult to pass "judgement" on this self created situation by HHDL.

I have deep respect for HHDL as he has been and will be the first name that will come to mind in a westerners head about encountering buddhism. And now with HHDL stance on the deity Dorje Shugden, HHDL is now spreading the dharma to the east via China and their aversion to HHDL.

Lineageholder

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2010, 07:36:48 AM »
This is just more noob stuff, a concerted campaign to discredit what 'A Great Deception' says.

That ugly taste in your mouth reminiscent of sour grapes is caused by your realization of the deceptiveness of the Dalai Lama's actions.  It's ugly reading because what he's done is extremely ugly and very disappointing considering the image he tries to portray of himself.  What's even more sad for you is if you continue to have great respect for the Dalai Lama given the wealth of information of his deceptive activities and his harming of others.  You're in denial, friend.

Don't shoot the messenger, accept the message, painful though that may be.  The worst deception is self-deception.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 07:53:03 AM by Lineageholder »

dsnowlion

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2010, 07:38:11 PM »
Is it really really true like what they say in the book that the Dalai Lama is a fake? So if the Dalai Lama is a fake, assuming, then does that imply that Drakpa Gyeltsen is suppose to be the one chosen to be the Dalai Lama???

This is really interesting. Can anyone verify this?

iloveds

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2010, 07:48:54 AM »
This is just more noob stuff, a concerted campaign to discredit what 'A Great Deception' says.

That ugly taste in your mouth reminiscent of sour grapes is caused by your realization of the deceptiveness of the Dalai Lama's actions.  It's ugly reading because what he's done is extremely ugly and very disappointing considering the image he tries to portray of himself.  What's even more sad for you is if you continue to have great respect for the Dalai Lama given the wealth of information of his deceptive activities and his harming of others.  You're in denial, friend.

Don't shoot the messenger, accept the message, painful though that may be.  The worst deception is self-deception.

No its not because of the deceptiveness, i say again i will never make judgement on HHDL because i am in no position to be the judge and jury like so many others are quick to do.

1) Before HHDL opened his mouth DS was not known and now DS is popular because of him
2) Having read TGIE propaganda regarding the DS issue before, the sentiment behind publications about the DS issue is never middleway. Even this book came across onesided. Check the purpose of the book and compare this to what is presented in the book it doesn't fulfill the purpose at all.

If you don't have the book heres the purpose

  • to liberate millions of innocent practitioners of the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden and their families from suffering
  • to restore peace and harmony between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
  • to re-establish the common spiritual activities of Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
  • to free Buddhism from political pollution

to liberate millions of innocent practitioners....
i think it makes them feel even worse.

to restore peace and harmony....
it leads to more anger and disharmony

to re-establish common spiritual activities...
it serves to divide spiritual acitivities

to free Buddhism form political pollution...
it serves to fuel the politics by having people focus on politics instead of practice.

Its an interesting read to see what the other side has to say. But the sour grapes i feel is that it became a publication that serves to sensationalise rather than academise (if there is such a word) the environment and issues.

They had a great chance to portay the situation unbiasedly but in then end it came across like a book of frustration.


Ensapa

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2010, 09:37:26 AM »
This is just more noob stuff, a concerted campaign to discredit what 'A Great Deception' says.

That ugly taste in your mouth reminiscent of sour grapes is caused by your realization of the deceptiveness of the Dalai Lama's actions.  It's ugly reading because what he's done is extremely ugly and very disappointing considering the image he tries to portray of himself.  What's even more sad for you is if you continue to have great respect for the Dalai Lama given the wealth of information of his deceptive activities and his harming of others.  You're in denial, friend.

Don't shoot the messenger, accept the message, painful though that may be.  The worst deception is self-deception.

No its not because of the deceptiveness, i say again i will never make judgement on HHDL because i am in no position to be the judge and jury like so many others are quick to do.

1) Before HHDL opened his mouth DS was not known and now DS is popular because of him
2) Having read TGIE propaganda regarding the DS issue before, the sentiment behind publications about the DS issue is never middleway. Even this book came across onesided. Check the purpose of the book and compare this to what is presented in the book it doesn't fulfill the purpose at all.

If you don't have the book heres the purpose

  • to liberate millions of innocent practitioners of the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden and their families from suffering
  • to restore peace and harmony between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
  • to re-establish the common spiritual activities of Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
  • to free Buddhism from political pollution

to liberate millions of innocent practitioners....
i think it makes them feel even worse.

to restore peace and harmony....
it leads to more anger and disharmony

to re-establish common spiritual activities...
it serves to divide spiritual acitivities

to free Buddhism form political pollution...
it serves to fuel the politics by having people focus on politics instead of practice.

Its an interesting read to see what the other side has to say. But the sour grapes i feel is that it became a publication that serves to sensationalise rather than academise (if there is such a word) the environment and issues.

They had a great chance to portay the situation unbiasedly but in then end it came across like a book of frustration.



i thought that book was nothing more than biased facts and whinings of anti DLism....hmm