Author Topic: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society  (Read 50772 times)

LosangKhyentse

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2010, 10:16:17 AM »


I don't like some of the things that were said in DECEPTION BOOK, especially that the current Dalai lama is not the real Dalai Lama. There is no way that would take off let alone be believed by the majority. That would sound cheap and just an under the table tactic to undermine him. There are other numerous ways to state our cases.

But having said that, the Deception Book was necessary. Many new practitioners who know nothing will ponder deeper. Will go in with a discriminating mind after reading it. (just can't wait for the dorje shugden movie to come that is in the making now) It will also let the other ppl know that we will NOT LISTEN TO ALL THE TIBETAN GOVT IN EXILE'S ANTI-SHUGDEN RHETORIC. I certainly will not.

But if other ppl do not like the Dalai Lama and says so on this forum, they have every right. This forum is about speaking our minds when many of the circumstances in religious-political life do not 'allow' us to. I do not condone anti-Dalai lama expressions, nor do I condone telling them to keep quiet. I read, think, and contemplate quietly. When I have something to say and it is not karmically damaging to myself and others, then i express. But do not get me wrong, as I am 100% into freedom of speech. I like hearing everyone's thoughts. This forum is indeed becoming more and more interesting. I do enjoy reading the posts very much. I also LEARN ALOT FROM THE POSTS. Some of the posts GIVE ME SO MUCH STRENGTH AND HOPE AND ENRICH MY PRACTICE. For that I sincerely thank everyone who takes the time and care to be involved in this helpful forum. I say clearly everyone is doing such a great job in their contributions. This forum has become a Dorje Shugden Practitoner's Support Group.


I don't like the ban but I don't hate the Dalai lama or anyone. There have been many ppl in the past who told me that I am crazy for being so Buddhist or being a Buddhist and they were dead against it. But I don't hate them and I continue what is right for me.  No matter what Dalai Lama says, I will not give up my practice of Dorje Shugden nor forsake the lamas who gave Him to me. It has made a huge difference in my life. Dorje Shugden's intervention has been clear and decisive many times in my life that his help is undeniable.

I have listened to him speak through his various oracles many times, and what he says and what he teaches is the same as what the Dalai Lama teaches, strange as it might seem. They say the same things on 99% of the points of course except the Dorje Shugden issue.

For the rest of my life I will promote Dorje Shugden anyway I can and continuously because I HAVE SEEN HIS BENEFICIAL INFLUENCE IN MY LIFE AND I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE OTHERS 'ENJOY' THE SAME PROTECTION AND GUIDANCE.

I CAN'T ALWAYS GET TO GOOD ADVICE OR HELP, BUT I KNOW DORJE SHUGDEN IS AROUND. I can 'feel' him at times. It could be my imagination but also I don't want to underestimate his kindness and ability to help everyone even a simple sam like me as he does have enlightened quick acting abilities able to percieve every being who calls upon him simutaneously.

tk



Lineageholder

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2010, 10:48:28 AM »
i thought that book was nothing more than biased facts and whinings of anti DLism....hmm

Have you read it?  Are you saying that the quotations from independent sources and interviews and so forth are wrong?

Lineageholder

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2010, 10:51:06 AM »
I don't like some of the things that were said in DECEPTION BOOK, especially that the current Dalai lama is not the real Dalai Lama. There is no way that would take off let alone be believed by the majority. That would sound cheap and just an under the table tactic to undermine him. There are other numerous ways to state our cases.

Dear tk,

But what if it's true?  It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that the wrong boy was chosen as the Dalai Lama.  Why couldn't this happen, especially in these degenerate times?  There are many truths that are not accepted by the majority, but that doesn't make them any less true.

LosangKhyentse

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2010, 02:45:01 PM »


It is not beyond the bounds of possibility, that it might be the 'wrong' Dalai lama, but that direction would be less skilfull to pursue in order to lift the ban.

It is also not beyond the bounds of possibility that the current Dalai Lama is the real incarnation also. It would be easier to go under that assumption to achieve our goals of lifting the ban.

tk

Ensapa

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2010, 03:23:19 PM »


It is not beyond the bounds of possibility, that it might be the 'wrong' Dalai lama, but that direction would be less skilfull to pursue in order to lift the ban.

It is also not beyond the bounds of possibility that the current Dalai Lama is the real incarnation also. It would be easier to go under that assumption to achieve our goals of lifting the ban.

tk

oh thats a smart thing to say. really, really smart. i like you TK!

WisdomBeing

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2010, 07:29:17 PM »

But if other ppl do not like the Dalai Lama and says so on this forum, they have every right. This forum is about speaking our minds when many of the circumstances in religious-political life do not 'allow' us to. I do not condone anti-Dalai lama expressions, nor do I condone telling them to keep quiet. I read, think, and contemplate quietly. When I have something to say and it is not karmically damaging to myself and others, then i express. But do not get me wrong, as I am 100% into freedom of speech.

Dear TK

Thank you for that sharing. I fully agree with you. People have the right to have an opinion about anything - a person, a belief, a religion, a cause. Like you, I also do not condone anti-Dalai Lama sentiments, but i didn't think about NOT telling them to keep quiet.

That is something for me to contemplate.  :)

i believe that people can have an opinion but i personally do not like it when people make nasty and personal attacks on people who don't share their same view. Especially in this so-called Dorje Shugden controversy. The Shugdenpas are already subject to discrimination and criticism by the anti-shugden group. Surely we don't need negativity within too.

Shugdenpas are all Dorje Shugden practitioners, so let our behaviour reflect our holy Protector. Let us represent him well.

Being a Dorje Shugden practitioner is not all about the Dalai Lama. He's one of the ingredients, no doubt, but his actions, whatever his motivation, is surely not the focus of our practice. If he is as bad as what some people think, his karma will ripen. If he is not, then we shouldn't criticise. So either way, there is no point getting upset about him.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

with deep respect,
kate




Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Losang_Tenpa

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2010, 07:58:49 PM »
Tibetan Buddhism's only female living Buddha, the twelfth Samding Dorje Phagmo, who chose to stay in Tibet when the Dalai Lama fled, has said, "The sins of the Dalai Lama and his followers seriously violate the basic teachings and precepts of Buddhism and seriously damage traditional Tibetan Buddhism's normal order and good reputation."

edit: http://www.news24.com/Content/World/News/1073/09a2024f9a1c4b5d9c00bdbd268a74c1/30-04-2008-08-18/Female_Buddha_slams_Dalai_Lama

I guess this is old news. Sorry.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 08:10:31 PM by Tenzin Sungrab »

emptymountains

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2010, 09:20:11 PM »
Quote
The undeniable truth is that Dalai Lama destroyed his reputation many years ago.

Hear hear! People destroy their reputations through their own samsaric actions, not people pointing out the nature of their actions.

Besides, the Dalai Lama's worldly reputation is a worldly concern, no?

Ensapa

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2010, 04:13:00 AM »
and thats all proven by bad mouthing DL? how boring and political.

If they can be proven without bad mouthing DL AND at the same time the Sangha after reading them denounces DL (meaning that they're valid enough to command that) then allright i'll believe.

about Dorje Samding Pagmo: she's in chinese territory, its obvious that saying long live DL is a very bad idea. She's also working with PRC to perserve and spread Dharma in PRC. i'd say that too if i were her to get on DL's good side.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 04:15:01 AM by Ensapa »

Big Uncle

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2010, 09:38:31 AM »
I just read 'A Great Deception' and I am thoroughly disturbed by the message contained within this book. I am not the Dalai Lama's student nor am I Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's student but I do find that the book at times tend to steer too much from the actual theme of the book. The theme of the book is (as printed on the back cover)

- to liberate millions of innocent practitioners of the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden and their families from suffering
I feel that the book will do very little in liberating their lives when most of the perpetrators of the atrocities probably will never read it. Anyway, what the Dalai Lama decrees have nothing to do with the practitioners in the West, hence NKT and WSS is so huge now. But there is nothing mentioned in the book of what WSS is doing within India(where most if not all of the victims are) to support these victims. All it seems to be doing is to defame the Dalai Lama.

- to restore peace and harmony between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
Well, honestly the book makes me angry and I am not even remotely connected to the events mentioned in the book. So if I am practitioner or a non-practitioner, I could imagine the conflict that can arise.

- to re-established the common spiritual activities of Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners
Nothing in the book seemed to lead towards 're-establishing the common spiritual activities'. How do you quell a conflict by stressing upon the reasons for the conflict? It looks like typical western-style activism that may cause more damage than benefit. If I were new to Buddhism and I pick this book up, I would be totally turned off.
 
- to free Buddhism from political pollution
Well, this is the only point that is closest to what I felt the book was trying to do. I do feel what the book said about the Dalai Lama on this aspect is clear and reasonable especially with its citations. Unfortunately, politics will always be dirty business.

Nonetheless, I like this book for bringing to light the plight of the Dorje Shugden practitioners (although I think it constituted just a small part of the book) and I do hope that this book will make a change in TGIE and Dalai Lama's decisions in the future or perhaps a lift of the ban.



LosangKhyentse

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Pakpa Samding Rinpoche-Female High Incarnate Lama
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2010, 10:45:37 AM »


A Rare photo of Pakpa Samding Rinpoche or Dorje Pakmo. A very high ranking female Lama incarnation. Her line of incarnations are considered to be an emanation of Vajra Yogini.

Vajraprotector

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2010, 11:00:20 AM »
and thats all proven by bad mouthing DL? how boring and political.

If they can be proven without bad mouthing DL AND at the same time the Sangha after reading them denounces DL (meaning that they're valid enough to command that) then allright i'll believe.

about Dorje Samding Pagmo: she's in chinese territory, its obvious that saying long live DL is a very bad idea. She's also working with PRC to perserve and spread Dharma in PRC. i'd say that too if i were her to get on DL's good side.

I agree with you Ensapa.

I must say I am impressed by the book, extensive compilation of news stories, documents, personal accounts, and chronologies, and 381 references/ notes. This book will make a good thesis.

The aims of this book are supposedly religious, two of which are: to liberate millions of innocent practitioners of the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden and their families from suffering, and to free Buddhism from political pollution.
Yet, this book is a damning account of the Fifth, Thirteenth, and current Dalai Lamas’ theocracies and their failures, especially as political leader, through exposing the Dalai Lama’s “open secrets” to the world by listing out Dalai Lama’s deception actions, unethical or non-virtuous actions , and actions of violence and persecution.

From a religious practitioner (REAL BUDDHISM) point of view, we have been taught that we cannot and do not know the motivations of others; yet, this book makes repeated claims to know the intentions and motivations of the Dalai Lama, asserting among other things that he constantly schemes to gain power because he is "self-serving" and a "troublemaker."


I've also been taught not to focus on the "faults" of others, but to look at my own delusions and explore the nature of my own mind. Yet, the book's focus is on the alleged "faults" of the Dalai Lama, whom they claimed was a “god-King” whom Tibetans blindly follow.

So I really don't know what I can say? Perhaps someone who REALLY cares about Dorje Shugden, and not so much about the rights to practice Dorje Shugden would make a difference by writing a book REALLY about Dorje Shugden and not the politics behind it? Trinleykalsang may be? (p/s; I love your DS history blog!)

emptymountains

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2010, 03:56:59 PM »
On page 9, right after stating the four aims of the book, the authors say that “Achieving these aims depends solely upon whether the present Dalai Lama will accept the four points set out at the conclusion of Chapter 4 of this book.”

No one else besides the Dalai Lama is responsible for achieving the four aims stated in the book; this depends solely upon him. Thus, If we combine the four aims on page 9 with the four points of acceptance on page 40:

1. When the Dalai Lama allows anyone who wishes to practice Dorje Shugden the freedom to do so, this will liberate millions of innocent practitioners of the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden and their families from suffering.

2. When the Dalai Lama stops completely the discrimination against Shugden practitioners, this will restore peace and harmony between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners.

3. When the Dalai Lama allows all Shugden monks and nuns who have been expelled to return to their monasteries and nunneries, and allows them to receive the same material and spiritual rights as non-Shugden practitioners, this will re-establish the common spiritual activities of Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners.

4. When the Dalai Lama writes to Tibetan communities throughout the world that they should apply practically the above three points, this will free Buddhism from political pollution.

If you read #4 carefully, it is basically saying that Tibetan Buddhism will become free of political pollution once the Dalai Lama renounces Lama Policy (i.e., using religion for political aims).

DharmaDefender

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2010, 03:23:57 PM »
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Besides, the Dalai Lama's worldly reputation is a worldly concern, no?

Well then I think it's quite nice of the WSS to pursue the worldly concern of destroying the Dalai Lama's reputation for the sake of Dorje Shugden. After all, the Dalai Lama himself clearly doesn't give a toss about his reputation; he seems quite happy to forgo it and play the part of a monk suppressing religion. Does that mean the Dalai Lama is doing something that is supramundane/not worldly, because he doesn't care about his reputation?

Quote
His ban and actions on this issue are based on non-truth, but most Tibetans don't recognize this

I think many Tibetans DO recognise this but they just aren't given the chance to voice their opinions :-[

emptymountains

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Re: A Great Deception - new book by Western Shugden Society
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2010, 03:56:29 PM »
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Well then I think it's quite nice of the WSS to pursue the worldly concern of destroying the Dalai Lama's reputation for the sake of Dorje Shugden.

I go back to my original statement: The Dalai Lama's reputation is being destroyed through his own samsaric actions, not by the WSS pointing out the harmful nature and hypocricy of his actions.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 04:11:38 PM by emptymountains »