Author Topic: Dorje Shugden oracle composes long life prayer for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso  (Read 37465 times)

Gabby Potter

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Dear AboutTheTruth

Thank you for this eye opening information. I have heard before that NKT used to believe in the oracle system, but due to some reasons that were not revealed to the public, NKT stopped consulting Dorje Shugden via oracles. It is interesting to find out that the famed Choyang Kuten, was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's uncle, and NKT members have requested Dorje Shugden to compose a long-life prayer via this oracle.

Before he was enthroned as an oracle, Choyang Kuten Lama, was observed by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. When Dorje Shugden took trance via Choyang Kuten's body, he announced that:

"Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama was an oracle for a manifestation of Dorje Shugden and that if he fulfilled all the requirements, he would be very beneficial to beings in the future."

The oracle tradition is quite common in the monastery, and even Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's root guru, had been consulting Dorje Shugden via oracles on many occasions. The advice given by Dorje Shugden via oracles that have been properly trained are proven to be very accurate. Even the Dalai Lama's escape from Tibet to India was due to the advice of Dorje Shugden who took trance via the famous Panglung kuten. Therefore, it is true that even though the current NKT members do not accept the oracle system, it does not mean that the system is not valid.

I respect Geshe Kelsang Gyatso very much, and he has certainly worked hard to spread the Dharma and Dorje Shugden lineage. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has always emphasised on Guru devotion in his teaching. Surely, he would not refute his root guru's, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche conviction in the oracle system. Therefore, if Geshe Kelsang advised to not use oracles in his centres, it must have been for some other reasons. Keeping this in mind, NKT members should maintain an open mind and respect the oracle system that is still pretty much alive today.

Michaela

It's indeed interesting to know that the Choyang Kuten was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's uncle, what's more powerful is the fact that a long life prayer was composed by Dorje Shugden for Geshe Kelsang Gytaso via the oracle which was again his uncle. The sudden denial of the oracular system is unexplainable, even to ordinary people like you and I, it just does not make sense at all.

As we all know, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is very devoted to the previous Trijang Rinpoche. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche in his previous life has created a few world renowned Dorje Shugden oracles such as the Panglung Kuten and Choyang Kuten. These oracles have taken trances of Dorje Shugden, healing hundreds and thousands of people around the world and have given crucial, life-saving advices to various high lamas including His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama himself during the 1959 Tibetan uprising. The previous Panglung Kuten took trance of Dorje Shugden and advised His Holiness to leave Tibet during that period of time and protected His Holiness throughout the entire journey.

Therefore it'd be incorrect for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso/ NKT to refute the oracular system now because that would mean that Trijang Rinpoche was wrong for creating these oracles in the first place. It's fine that they decided to turn against Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and break their samaya with the lineage masters, but they should not discourage, force and expect others to give up on their beliefs and follow them. It's absolutely incorrect, all these systems have been in place for the last few hundreds of years, it's not up to you or me or a group of people to modify it when they feel like it. The NKT should really learn up how to respect others...

vajratruth

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These sets of tweets by Sanglam says a lot about the NKT today. Sanglam himself has no basis nor knowledge to form any genuine doctrinal arguments and he merely parrots what he has heard.

To begin with, Samglam wants to portray Tibetan Buddhism as an antiquated, out-of-date and corrupt system (which is the NKT's way of saying the NKT is the supreme Bddhist institution today) and points to the 'tulku system' as representing the corruption in Tibetan Buddhism.

The tulku concept is not even an invention of Tibetan Buddhism. The term tulku is simply the Tibetan translation of the Sanskri, 'nirmanakaya' (emanation body). Tibetan Buddhist lamas did not invent this concept and it was the old Indian Buddhist Schools that first viewed the Buddha is His various bodies especially after His parinirvana.

It was the Sarvastivadins who began commenting on the 'kaya' of the Buddha and the Mahasanghikas who conceived of the 2 'kaya' of the Buddha - rupakaya (nirmanakaya) and dharmakaya. The Mahasanghikas emerged about a century after the Buddha's passing and their doctrines are commonly found in the Astasaharsrika Prajna Paramita.

Then the Yogacara School that emerged in the 4th century CE further developed the system, and separated rupakaya into nirmanakaya (gross rupakaya) and sambhogakaya (subtle rupakaya).

If Sanglam's contention is that we should abolish the tulku system because it is being abused by greedy people,  then should we similarly abolish any system that has hints of corruption and abuse? Presidents, Prime Ministers and heads of states, CEO's of large and small companies do not come to power by the tulku system but there is an endless list of names of nations and corporations that are known to be corrupt.

The NKT is not known to practice the tulku system but the NKT is not short of its own scandals created by persons who were personally selected by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and/or elected by the NKT establishment. Do we then say the NKT system should be abolished?

Looking at Sanglam's behavior, we see that the NKT has successfully reduced the practice of Buddhism and steered it away from training one's own Mind to condemning the beliefs and practices of other schools and religion. Where in the Sutra or Tantra is that taught?

"Just because something worked in the past does not mean it is not misused now" says Sanglam. That's true in principle but we do not eradicate a working system just because the NKT says so. The tulku concept worked for many centuries and has accounted for the successful transmission of many important teachings and lineages. The NKT does not have the infrastructure to nurture tulkus or train oracles. To do that, the NKT has to have the involvement of qualified lamas and systems apart from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Geshela alone cannot do it. So for the NKT not to abide by the tulku system or have oracular practices is understandable and acceptable. That too doesn't mean that without the tulku system no Buddhist centre can succeed. But for the NKT to vehemently deny something because they cannot be or do not wish to be a part of it is just deluded.


Harold Musetescu

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If the NKT does not believe in the tulku system that's just fine with me.

Of course this means that they do not believe in Dorje Shugden or "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen.

So NKT do you believe in "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen and his "TULKU" lineage or will you now deny him and Dorje Shugden?

You can't have it both ways.

 


Big Uncle

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If the NKT does not believe in the tulku system that's just fine with me.

Of course this means that they do not believe in Dorje Shugden or "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen.

So NKT do you believe in "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen and his "TULKU" lineage or will you now deny him and Dorje Shugden?

You can't have it both ways.

Good point. It's sad that NKT would deny the very foundation of Tibetan Buddhism. The very fact that Dorje Shugden arose from one of the move revered incarnations - Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. And the very fact that they are worshipping him and deriving powerful protection from his practice shows contradiction in their believe system.

I think its fine if a casual practitioner not have full faith but if a whole organization that consists of many senior practitioners denies this fundamental element, they deny the very foundation of the lineage. They deny the fact that there are certain masters who had developed genuine bodhichitta and the very fact that they will return and that they have the same quality of bodhichitta as they had before in a previous life. On top of that, what would the negative karma be for one who disparages a bodhisattva.

Furthermore, the same reasoning can be extended towards oracles. For oracles, we may or may not have faith but great lamas like Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche had faith and trained and authorized oracles to take trance of various protector deities, especially Dorje Shugden. So, denial does not disprove oracles and does little to change the tremendous benefit that genuine oracles of our lineage can bring to others and the lineage.


Erstvollzug

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Very good point.
How will NKT answer this?


 :o
If the NKT does not believe in the tulku system that's just fine with me.

Of course this means that they do not believe in Dorje Shugden or "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen.

So NKT do you believe in "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen and his "TULKU" lineage or will you now deny him and Dorje Shugden?

You can't have it both ways.

aboutthetruth

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Nice bit of back and forth here on Atisha's Cook's wall. He's been quiet this last year or so since ISC / NKT shut down their operations.

But good on Gen Jamkar for answering so well. Direct, not rude, factual and he brought up some pertinent points about NKT's hypocrisy. In referring to Gen Jamkar, we are talking about a senior member in NKT, an elder, now criticising the organisation's role in starting up this whole tulku system issue and detracting from the real issue (i.e. religious freedom for Shugden practitioners).

Gen Jamkar makes reference to the fact NKT recites songs composed by an oracle, while criticising the oracle himself. What about the prayers that NKT / ISBC members recite, which were composed by tulkus and people who gave recognition to tulkus? What about the teachings NKT promotes and organises classes on, which were taught and held by tulkus and people who gave recognition to tulkus?

It is NKT's right to believe that what Trijang Rinpoche did may not apply today, yes that's their right to do so. But NKT is simultaneously under the assumption that everyone in the "wider global community" today is exactly the same in character, upbringing, belief and cultural identity. So are they right to assume someone who practises in Taiwan has the same values as someone raised in the UK? No, not really. Atisha's Cook and NKT are free to believe some views are anachronistic and redundant to them, but they have no business and no right imposing their judgements on anyone.

What they are doing is similar to the colonialists of the 19th century, forcing people to stare down the barrel of a gun and believe that "My Judeo-Christian view is the right and only view, and you're going to follow that, or else." Or in NKT / ISBC's case, "You're going to follow our view or we will launch a social media campaign to insult and defame you".

Don't they see how hypocritical it is to protest for religious freedom in one breath, and then turn around and criticise everyone else who doesn't agree with their beliefs? Isn't it other people's religious freedom to believe in whatever they want? Calling Gonsar Tulku a "troublemaker" for refusing to comply? That's just rude and unnecessary. Since when did Gonsar Tulku have to answer to Atisha's Cook and Rabten?

Atisha's Cook def does himself no favours when he paraphrases his guru as saying things like "mystical horseshit divination". Doesn't paint his teacher in a very good light...it's nice to know Geshe-la is so dismissive of something Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche and a whole host of other teachers engaged in.

So is Atisha's Cook right in this, and everyone else in the Gelug tradition wrong? :-\ Atisha's Cook should just get in line with Rabten then.

Drolma

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NKT is not helping in spreading Dharma at all. People are already criticising why are there controversies surrounding Gelug lineage, for example how can NKT call His Holiness fake, how can they call him a liar; and now NKT is calling Trijang Rinpoche fake too! It is as if there's not enough troubles for Dorje Shugden practitioners. Is NKT trying to imply all Lamas are fake except for their own guru? Even older NKT Sangha cannot tolerate what NKT is doing now, criticising Trijang Rinpoche.

Gabby Potter

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If the NKT wants to discredit tulkus, lineage lamas and oracles, based on their 'truth' and 'logic', then why are they still relying on the practices, texts and scriptures of the previous tulkus in the Gaden tradition.

They should start their particular own lineage and tradition, maybe even compose their own curriculum based on the Kangyur and Tangyur, they should not rely on the works previous lineage lamas who were recognized as tulkus. NKT should come out with their own Lamrim, Ngagrim, Lojong without referring to contaminated teachings and works of tulkus, any works after Lama Tsongkhapa from tulkus should be discredited and omitted. Example works from Panchen Sonam Dragpa, monastic textbooks, if those information had existed as part of what Geshela had used to develop the NKT curriculum, then these should be purged out from all of NKT's 'Modern Buddhism' so there is no more contamination. 

The previous Trijang Rinpoche was a tulku too, recognized exactly using the same system as now. So why is the Previous Trijang Rinpoche authentic teacher of NKT's spiritual director, but the new incarnation Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche who is recognized via exactly the same way is not authentic.

The fact that they are still relying and perpetuating on the teachings passed down to them from the lineage masters proves that the contents and methods are effective. From a Buddhist point of view, one may have a lot of knowledge and have stayed in retreats for the longest time but once they start criticizing their lineage masters, whatever little attainments they may have accumulated prior to that will go down the drain.

Every single attainment they have collected is due to the practice and knowledge that flow through the foundation of the lineage masters. Therefore if they demolish the foundation, they demolish the lineage masters.

Gabby Potter

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They should start their particular own lineage and tradition, maybe even compose their own curriculum based on the Kangyur and Tangyur, they should not rely on the works previous lineage lamas who were recognized as tulkus. NKT should come out with their own Lamrim, Ngagrim, Lojong without referring to contaminated teachings and works of tulkus, any works after Lama Tsongkhapa from tulkus should be discredited and omitted. Example works from Panchen Sonam Dragpa, monastic textbooks, if those information had existed as part of what Geshela had used to develop the NKT curriculum, then these should be purged out from all of NKT's 'Modern Buddhism' so there is no more contamination. 

Absolutely agree with what has been written here. If the NKT are so great and are such 'high practitioners', who don't they themselves come up with a completely new set of education system and get rid of the 'impure' teachings taught by the lineage masters since they were all tulkus in their previous lives? It's very convenient for them to say and deny this and that when they 'feel' like there needs to be a change in the system to so called 'adapt' to the modern times.

Most of the people nowadays chase after a materialistic life, spirituality is rarely something they consider having in their daily lives. This would mean that the attachments nowadays are stronger and far more varied as compared to a few decades ago. This happened due to a human-caused problem which is our greed, it has nothing to do with the systems or whatsoever. So even if they reject the tulku and oracular systems now, it  still doesn't solve the root cause which is human attitudes. What's worst is for your convenience, you change the systems in order to justify you not being able to practice and develop mind transformation, so what's the point of practicing at all?

Harold Musetescu

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So I assume that Geshe la is now admitting his has given wrong teachings.

He use to teach about the purity and greatness of Tulkus but now he doesn't.

So your previous public teachings on Tulkus were wrong which means you were WRONG.

You use to publicly teach about the greatness of Oracles but now you don't.

So your previous teachings on Oracles were wrong which means you were WRONG.

If you were so wrong about your public teachings about Tulkus and Oracles what else have you taught that was and is now WRONG.

You now admit you give WRONG teachings which means you are WRONG.

Geshe la please warn your followers that todays teaching may be correct but in the future they may become WRONG.

Thank you Geshe la for publicly admitting to your NKT followers and the world that you give WRONG teachings as a warming to all of us.

You are very brave in doing so.

AshRao

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It's just one thing after another with these people. I understand that they are spreading the teachings and kudos to them for doing this, but the manner in which they portray others, the manner in which the demean others, and the manner in which they put force their ascribed view on to other people is not write. Even what they do and say is hypocritical.

Even if they don't believe in tulkus or oracles, that's fine. The are obviously entitled to their view about the issue, as are we. But their stance verses what they do is hypocritical. I mean, they say that oracles do not exist, but recite the prayers composed by the Holy Protector in trance of an oracle. If they don't exist, they why do they still recite the prayers. On the other hand, they also claim that the oracle that visited them was in fact a real oracle, those who met him and participated, even claim that it was the real Dorje Shugden who took control of the oracle and gave teachings. Why is it then, that they have such conflicting views. I'm confused, and i bet those on the inside are even more confused as to what they should be believing. 


Harold Musetescu

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I fear that Geshe la has fallen to the greatest of all the "Demons".

He has fallen to the the "Demon of Exaltation".

He now thinks himself greater then the "Teachings".

He now thinks himself greater then the "Tulkus" and their lineages.

He now thinks himself greater than the "Oracles" and their lineages.

Worst of all he thinks himself greater then his "Teachers".

It is almost impossible to free one self from the grasp of the "Demon of Exaltation".

Pray for Geshe la.


Gabby Potter

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How can NKT speak against the Tulku system? Do they have the knowledge to talk about the Tulku system? Well, it seems not as we can see that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso did rely on an oracle. Why putting down their own teacher and why reciting the long life prayer for their teacher, written by the Choyang Dulzin Kuten, the Dorje Shugden oracle?

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's root guru was Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and he surely does rely on the Tulku systm. Does NKT want to say that Geshe Kelsang's root teacher is wrong? I guess it is time for NKT to reflect on their history and the basis of Tibetan Buddhism.

It's indeed very ironic of the NKT for speaking against the tulku & oracular systems that have been put in place by great lineage masters of the past who they now learn the teachings from. Why do you criticize, oppose and encourage people to abandon one's methods yet you continue to practice and use their teachings? If the system is faulty, it would mean that the foundation of their teachings is defective as well, so why are the NKT still using these teachings?

Matibhadra

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Quote
If the [tulku] system is faulty, it would mean that the foundation of their teachings is defective as well, so why are the NKT still using these teachings?

NKT's attacks against the tulku system are necessitated by NKT's administrators desperate need to justify and legitimize themselves and their NKT, in the anticipated absence of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

Knowing that no successor of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso will ever enjoy his authority, NKT's administrators resort to attacking tulku succession in order to distract people from NKT's own lackluster succession.

A bit like the Catholic Church attacking the devil in order to distract people from their god's ownlackluster performance, or like the evil dalie attacking Shugdenpas in order to distract people from his own failures.

In other words, such attacks are a confession by the NKT's administrators' of their lack of confidence in their own leadership, and capacity successfully to run NKT in the absence of Geshe Keksang Gyatso.

Their logic is a logic of corporate survival, as they foresee the inexorability of NKT's disintegration in the absence of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, but they want to keep alive what became a profitable enterprise.

They need to attack and demonize Trijang Rinpoche, Gonsar Rinpoche, and other traditional Shugden lamas, because they know that NKT students will flock to them as soon as Geshe Gelsang Gyatso disappears.

Lacking any credible leadership after Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's disappearance, they see hatred against other Shugden lamas as the only unifying factor capable of preventing NKT's disintegration. They need such hatred.

Therefore, it is beside the point to discuss the logic, or lack thereof, of the arguments brought by NKT's propagandists. They are not interested in logic. They are interested in a story which might ensure their survival.

They know that NKT will disintegrate, and they are angry with their unavoidable fate. Without Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, NKT is a rottening corpse exhaling putrid odors polluting the Buddhist environment.

Gabby Potter

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NKT has gotten the limelight again! Everything they do raise eyebrows in good and bad ways and their opinion on the tulku system and oracle are one of those bad ones. While I appreciate all they have done for Dorje Shugden (or he helped them) and the lineage, one cannot ignore the fact that they are also destroying the lineage at the same time. The use of high level oracles have been a tradition in Tibetan Buddhism for centuries with a system where suitable candidates are being trained by high calibre lamas who are often tulkus themselves. The advice and prophecies given have been proven right in most cases. This is due to the practises and retreats prescribed to the oracle so that his or her body is ready to be entered by the oracle. The lama training the oracle supervise the oracle very closely including their dreams, spiritual experiences, body changes etc. throughout the training and then the other high lamas will give the authentication. This process is very strict and not up to just any individuals and none of the decision is being made loosely. What on earth is NKT talking about? What does Geshe Kelsang Gyatso thinking?


You are totally right, the NKT may have done a lot for the practice of Dorje Shugden but currently what they are doing, is going to affect Tibetan Buddhism and the systems greatly. All these systems have been in placed for the last few hundred years, millions of people have been benefited from them for sure. None of them/ us have the authority or power to judge and alter since they can no longer agree with the systems anymore.

It's the same thing as comparing to the Buddha's teachings, just because you do not agree with a certain teachings or you can't adapt to the views, it does not give you or anyone the right to change it. Frankly, if you find yourself not adapting to the system or teachings, it should be your job to look for another lineage and continue with your practice if you think that will help.