Author Topic: Dorje Shugden oracle composes long life prayer for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso  (Read 37046 times)

aboutthetruth

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A lot of remarks have recently been made about the tulku system. It seems everyone has an opinion one way or the other. When you have a view, it's easy to find others who support that view. It doesn't mean it's the correct view for everyone, and it also doesn't mean what you're interpreting from what's been said is correct. Trump and his supporters are a perfect example of that.

So people can find whoever they want to support the NKT's views about the tulku system. But perhaps NKT members shouldn't be so obnoxious to expect the entire Tibetan Buddhist tradition to toe the NKT line?

When NKT (ISBC?) members keep talking against the tulku system, they are essentially saying people like Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, whom they claim to be devoted to, are wrong to support the tulku system. Trijang Rinpoche recognised and gave chadaks (recognition papers) to countless tulkus. Were all of his recognitions wrong? Was Trijang Rinpoche wrong to perpetuate the tulku system, and only the NKT / ISBC are right to be against it? What more is there to say about the thousands of other lamas who have given recognition papers too. Baffles me that Heruka can be capable of leading us to enlightenment, and yet be wrong about the tulku system.

And if Trijang Rinpoche was wrong about the tulku system, as many ISBC members have implied through their actions and what they say, then what else was Trijang Rinpoche wrong about that these practitioners rely on now? Was Trijang Rinpoche wrong about Dorje Shugden practice too?  :-\ so do the ISBC members' prayers to Dorje Shugden have any effect since their lineage of Shugden prayers came from an 'incorrect' lama who supported the tulku system?

And we all know the NKT is always changing their minds. They don't like the oracle now, but they previously requested Duldzin through the oracle to compose long life prayers to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. It's printed in their own books, see pictures below. Reciting long life prayers creates the causes for our teachers to live long, especially when our prayers are sincere requests. The purpose of long life prayers, as quoted by FPMT, is that we purify our relationships with our teachers (samaya or damtsik). So shouldn't NKT discredit these prayers now they don't believe in the oracular system too? And are the years and the hundreds of students who recited these long life prayers for Geshe-la wasted, with no impact or effect?

So you see, NKT do (or at least, did) believe in oracles as they requested him to write a prayer for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's long life. By the way, for those who don't know, the Choyang Dulzin Kuten who wrote these prayers while in trance is actually Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's uncle. There are some pictures of him below during his time in England, when he even took trance in NKT premises like Madhyamaka Centre.


Choyang Dulzin Kuten in Manjushri Kadampa Centre, in Ulverston. That's the NKT headquarters by the way.


Here you've got Lama Gangchen with Choyang Dulzin Kuten again, somewhere in England.


Choyang Dulzin Kuten in peaceful trance of Dorje Shugden at Madhayamaka Centre. He was able to take trance of the peaceful and wrathful forms of Dorje Shugden. It must have been one of the peaceful trances when he composed the long life prayers to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.


Choyang Dulzin Kuten again, somewhere in Western Europe (England perhaps?). This oracle was by all accounts a very kind person, and a fine oracle who gave very accurate prophecies and answers.

aboutthetruth

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And important addition since I lack the ability to make edits to my post:

Based on my research, it takes a highly skilled and attained individual to create oracles. In fact, the deity that enters the oracle (especially if it's a higher being) is only moved or subdued by bodhicitta. If you have bodhicitta, you can create oracles because you have the ability to 'command' the deity to enter the appropriate receptacle.

That would therefore explain why masters like Trijang Rinpoche, the Jetsun Damba (Mongolian lama), Domo Geshe Rinpoche were able to create oracles. Under the scrutiny of thousands of monks

And being the calibre of practitioners that they are, it would also explain why masters like Pabongka Rinpoche had no issue relying on oracles that were authenticated by these teachers. Masters like Pabongka Rinpoche trusted these oracles. The Dalai Lama trusted (and still trusts!) his oracles.

But of course, NKT asserts that they know better than Pabongka Rinpoche when it comes to the oracular and tulku systems...

I have read also that oracles are not accepted right off the bat and are tested. New oracles are asked questions previously posed to the deity 30-40 years ago, that there is no way the new oracle would've been present for or heard about. An authentic oracle will be able to recite the answer given 30-40 years ago back to the questioner verbatim, word-for-word.

But the point of this all is, if you can trust someone to bring you to enlightenment, wouldn't you say that that person would also be capable of "lower" skills like creating oracles? Enlightenment is a much loftier goal than oracle-making and for someone of Trijang Rinpoche's calibre, to make oracles would be a walk in the park.

Gabby Potter

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Thank you @aboutthetruth for sharing the information. It's indeed very hypocritical of the NKT to criticize the oracle and tulku system when they themselves have been relying on both either directly or indirectly. Maybe there's a need for the NKT to attend a history lesson about their own background LOL...

It's absolutely their freedom to choose not to believe in the oracular and tulku systems, after all it's a personal belief; But they should not force it down others' throats when it comes to things they don't agree with, the worst thing is they do anything to put down peoples' beliefs just so that they can 'get their point across'. Who do they think they are? Who gives them the authority to defy the Buddha's teachings and slander others' beliefs? Is this how Buddhists should act? We have so many different beliefs and religions that co-exist with Buddhism, for example, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Bon and many more. So are the NKT going to defy each of these religions? Of course not, they don't dare to.

They have Geshe Kelsang Gyatso as the head of the centre and therefore they think that they can say whatever they want and alter whatever systems that were already there since hundreds of years in the history of Tibetan Buddhism. No, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is NOT THE ONLY teacher in the Gelug lineage. I do not mean any disrespect, we have Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and many more other elite masters who have contributed so much towards Tibetan Buddhism. Through their enlightened works and manifestations, they have benefited millions of people all over the world, this is undeniable. Therefore on what basis that NKT are trying to defy the systems created by all these great masters? Are they enlightened? Are they all Buddhas already? If we concede with their actions and allow them to alter whatever systems they like as and when, what is going to happen to Tibetan Buddhism 20 years, 50 years from now? It's very dangerous of them, religion is not a game, you don't change the rules just because you don't agree with it or don't find it helpful anymore. Shame on the NKT...  :( They should really mind their own business already and stop creating havocs and further discredit Tibetan Buddhism.

ShugdenProtector

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NKT sure seems like a bunch of clueless hypocrites, because the more the speak out, the more they look silly. The reason being is that they are very quick to forget where it all came from. Where they even got their teachings from. It stops at just Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. This also indicates they could never move forward as they lack the appreciation and the acknowledgements of the lineage lamas the moment they condemn the Tulku system.

Sometimes I wonder where they get their bazaar illogical ideas from? The one to look at is Geshe-la himself, which makes me wonder if Geshe-la was the one who authorises these so-called caucasian Kelsangs in maroon robes to go out to spread lies, schism and disharmony with others.

Yes, I agree with their fickle mindedness, they are hot then they are cold with many issues, the thing is who made them the authority and to judge others if they are real Tulkus or not? Although there are some Tulkus who do not continue and fulfil their roles, that does not mean all Tulkus are bad and wrong. It is like them saying just because of one experience with an Indian, that means all Indians are bad? How can that be, how can they just stereotype that the entire Tulku system is wrong when so many incarnated Lamas including their own Lama comes from this very system. So I guess they will not recognise their own incarnate Lama, that can never happen because they will just dismiss him.

And if they dismiss the Tulku system that means they dismiss the entire lineage Lamas. So if they are tantric practitioners and they recite the names of the lineage lamas, they gain no blessing and no attainments since they do not recognise Tulkus, no?

michaela

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Dear AboutTheTruth

Thank you for this eye opening information. I have heard before that NKT used to believe in the oracle system, but due to some reasons that were not revealed to the public, NKT stopped consulting Dorje Shugden via oracles. It is interesting to find out that the famed Choyang Kuten, was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's uncle, and NKT members have requested Dorje Shugden to compose a long-life prayer via this oracle.

Before he was enthroned as an oracle, Choyang Kuten Lama, was observed by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. When Dorje Shugden took trance via Choyang Kuten's body, he announced that:

"Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama was an oracle for a manifestation of Dorje Shugden and that if he fulfilled all the requirements, he would be very beneficial to beings in the future."

The oracle tradition is quite common in the monastery, and even Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's root guru, had been consulting Dorje Shugden via oracles on many occasions. The advice given by Dorje Shugden via oracles that have been properly trained are proven to be very accurate. Even the Dalai Lama's escape from Tibet to India was due to the advice of Dorje Shugden who took trance via the famous Panglung kuten. Therefore, it is true that even though the current NKT members do not accept the oracle system, it does not mean that the system is not valid.

I respect Geshe Kelsang Gyatso very much, and he has certainly worked hard to spread the Dharma and Dorje Shugden lineage. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has always emphasised on Guru devotion in his teaching. Surely, he would not refute his root guru's, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche conviction in the oracle system. Therefore, if Geshe Kelsang advised to not use oracles in his centres, it must have been for some other reasons. Keeping this in mind, NKT members should maintain an open mind and respect the oracle system that is still pretty much alive today.

Michaela

DharmaSpace

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If the NKT wants to discredit tulkus, lineage lamas and oracles, based on their 'truth' and 'logic', then why are they still relying on the practices, texts and scriptures of the previous tulkus in the Gaden tradition.

They should start their particular own lineage and tradition, maybe even compose their own curriculum based on the Kangyur and Tangyur, they should not rely on the works previous lineage lamas who were recognized as tulkus. NKT should come out with their own Lamrim, Ngagrim, Lojong without referring to contaminated teachings and works of tulkus, any works after Lama Tsongkhapa from tulkus should be discredited and omitted. Example works from Panchen Sonam Dragpa, monastic textbooks, if those information had existed as part of what Geshela had used to develop the NKT curriculum, then these should be purged out from all of NKT's 'Modern Buddhism' so there is no more contamination. 

The previous Trijang Rinpoche was a tulku too, recognized exactly using the same system as now. So why is the Previous Trijang Rinpoche authentic teacher of NKT's spiritual director, but the new incarnation Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche who is recognized via exactly the same way is not authentic.

Pema8

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How can NKT speak against the Tulku system? Do they have the knowledge to talk about the Tulku system? Well, it seems not as we can see that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso did rely on an oracle. Why putting down their own teacher and why reciting the long life prayer for their teacher, written by the Choyang Dulzin Kuten, the Dorje Shugden oracle?

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's root guru was Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and he surely does rely on the Tulku systm. Does NKT want to say that Geshe Kelsang's root teacher is wrong? I guess it is time for NKT to reflect on their history and the basis of Tibetan Buddhism.

ShugdenProtector

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Look at what I saw from a friend's twitter and what this Kelsang Sanglam posted... anyone care or wish to response to his remarks, please feel free!

It is just so funny how they got NO knowledge of the Tulku system but wants to be against it just because a few Tulku's did not "meet" their projections or said they were not Tulkus? It is like a bunch of racist people who says all Muslim are terrorist! How ridiculous and prejudice is that?!

And all this is suddenly happening because... suddenly Geshe-la wants to bring attention to HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and create a drama out of nothing, out of a system he himself has been relying on. And all this for what? When NKT/ISBC decided to USE Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche's students/followers and friends for the protest, everything seems "fine". Why so two face? They are such a strange bunch, no wonder they are hated by so many people.



Matibhadra

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And all this is suddenly happening because... suddenly Geshe-la wants to bring attention to HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and create a drama out of nothing,

Can you prove that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind NKT's stupid, defamatory statements?

Matibhadra

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Trump and his supporters are a perfect example of that.

What a long shot. Could you elaborate on what Trump and his supporters have to do with the tulku system?

Matibhadra

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What exactly is your opinion? That the tulku system is flawless and that it can never be misused?

Sanglam's idiotic implication is that his favorite (NKT's) non-tulku system is necessary flawless and can never be misused.

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Where is tulku policy taught in the sutras and tantras?

Sanglam's idiotic implication is that sutras and tantras do not teach nirmanakaya.

Another of Sanglam's idiotic implications is that Dorje Shugden having had previous incarnations, such as Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, is in contradiction with the sutras and tantras.

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Why would a real tulku be recognized?

Sanglam's idiotic implication is that a real tulku should not be recognized, and therefore that the Buddha and Dorje Shugden, themselves nirmanakayas or tulkus, should not be recognized.

Another of Sanglam's idiotic implications is that a reality, such a real tulku, should not be recognized, and therefore that ignorance is better than knowledge.

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So do you believe that there have been no fake tulkus?

Sanglam's idiotic implication is that the existence of one fake tulku implies the fakeness of all tulkus.

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Everyone can see that the tulku system is corrupted.

Sanglam's idiotic implication is that NKT system is itself not corrupted, no matter how idiotic are his members' implications.

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Why because more and more tulkus are publicly saying that they are not tulkus.

Sanglam's idiotic implication is that if such tulkus would keep secret that they are not tulkus, the tulku system would not be corrupted.

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I am against that. Most of the soo (sic) called tulkus are taken when they are very young.

Sanglam's idiotic implication is that young children should be denied Buddhist education.

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Just because something worked in the past does not mean it is not misused now

Sanglam's idiotic implication is that just because something is misused now it should not be used at all.

Another of Sanglam's idiotic implications is that the recognition of tulkus worked in the past, even though, according to himself, a real tulku should never be recognized.

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Why is it necessary to have tulkus? Please defend this view.

Sanglam's idiotic implication is that the Buddha did not teach the need of nirmanakayas, or tulkus.

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I believe most of them are fake. Some may be true.

Sanglam's idiotic implication is that a true tulku should be denied recognition just because some tulkus are fake, or that true gold should be denied recognition just because there is fake gold.

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I am against the system that kidnaps little boys and uses them for there (sic) own personal reasons.

Sanglam's idiotic implication is that NKT's non-tulku system is not serving NKT owners' own personal reasons.

Another of Sanglam's idiotic implications is that he is concerned with the freedom of little boys recognized as tulkus not to receive a Buddhist education.

Again another of Sanglam's idiotic implications is that now he is the representative of the rights and interests of the little boys recognized as tulkus, over and above even their own parents.

--

Bottom line, such is the degeneration of NKT's non-tulku system that such an excrescence as Sanglam together with his preposterous views was produced by it.

Rowntree

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NKT has gotten the limelight again! Everything they do raise eyebrows in good and bad ways and their opinion on the tulku system and oracle are one of those bad ones. While I appreciate all they have done for Dorje Shugden (or he helped them) and the lineage, one cannot ignore the fact that they are also destroying the lineage at the same time. The use of high level oracles have been a tradition in Tibetan Buddhism for centuries with a system where suitable candidates are being trained by high calibre lamas who are often tulkus themselves. The advice and prophecies given have been proven right in most cases. This is due to the practises and retreats prescribed to the oracle so that his or her body is ready to be entered by the oracle. The lama training the oracle supervise the oracle very closely including their dreams, spiritual experiences, body changes etc. throughout the training and then the other high lamas will give the authentication. This process is very strict and not up to just any individuals and none of the decision is being made loosely. What on earth is NKT talking about? What does Geshe Kelsang Gyatso thinking?

ShugdenProtector

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And all this is suddenly happening because... suddenly Geshe-la wants to bring attention to HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and create a drama out of nothing,

Can you prove that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind NKT's stupid, defamatory statements?

Well who else could it be? They are all so robotic, they will dare do anything if only Geshe-la approves. It is well known, can ask any NKT/ex-NKT. And such a zainy idea can only come from Geshe-la. You think these kind of defamatory statements would come naturally and daringly from the Kelsangs? You think they would dare go against their own Guru's Guru IF Geshe-la did not agree and told them to do so and give them the green light? Think about it, who is the top? He is the greatest mastermind, he was the one who asked them to start the protest against Dalai Lama and attempted to bring Dalai Lama to court. What proof? Let's just say an old cat from the NKT block whispered to me and I am sure many others.

But I do like your questions back to the idiotic Sanglam! It makes logical sense! Thanks

Gabby Potter

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NKT sure seems like a bunch of clueless hypocrites, because the more the speak out, the more they look silly. The reason being is that they are very quick to forget where it all came from. Where they even got their teachings from. It stops at just Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. This also indicates they could never move forward as they lack the appreciation and the acknowledgements of the lineage lamas the moment they condemn the Tulku system.

Sometimes I wonder where they get their bazaar illogical ideas from? The one to look at is Geshe-la himself, which makes me wonder if Geshe-la was the one who authorises these so-called caucasian Kelsangs in maroon robes to go out to spread lies, schism and disharmony with others.

Yes, I agree with their fickle mindedness, they are hot then they are cold with many issues, the thing is who made them the authority and to judge others if they are real Tulkus or not? Although there are some Tulkus who do not continue and fulfil their roles, that does not mean all Tulkus are bad and wrong. It is like them saying just because of one experience with an Indian, that means all Indians are bad? How can that be, how can they just stereotype that the entire Tulku system is wrong when so many incarnated Lamas including their own Lama comes from this very system. So I guess they will not recognise their own incarnate Lama, that can never happen because they will just dismiss him.

And if they dismiss the Tulku system that means they dismiss the entire lineage Lamas. So if they are tantric practitioners and they recite the names of the lineage lamas, they gain no blessing and no attainments since they do not recognise Tulkus, no?

You made a point there, the NKT seem to forget so quickly that all they have been taught today came from the lineage masters and tulkus before Geshe Kelsang Gyatso came in line. It's very ignorant of them to refute the tulku system when most of the things they themselves teach today came directly from all these erudite masters whose main purpose of incarnation is to preserve and perpetuate the Buddha's teachings.

As a matter of fact, we are all tulkus, there are many different levels of tulkus just like there are many different levels of Bodhisattvas. Ordinary people like you and I belong to the lowest level of tulkus, so since there are so many levels of tulkus, it would mean that amongst us there are tulkus who are emanations of the Buddha. The word tulku means Nirmanakaya which is one of the three Kayas. What the NKT are doing now is they are rejecting the system that came directly from the Buddha, so are they trying to say that the Buddha was wrong? All the teachings that have been passed down for hundreds of years are faulty? Would that mean whatever they are teaching now is defective too?

Ringo Starr

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