dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: aboutthetruth on May 01, 2017, 06:03:53 PM
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A lot of remarks have recently been made about the tulku system. It seems everyone has an opinion one way or the other. When you have a view, it's easy to find others who support that view. It doesn't mean it's the correct view for everyone, and it also doesn't mean what you're interpreting from what's been said is correct. Trump and his supporters are a perfect example of that.
So people can find whoever they want to support the NKT's views about the tulku system. But perhaps NKT members shouldn't be so obnoxious to expect the entire Tibetan Buddhist tradition to toe the NKT line?
When NKT (ISBC?) members keep talking against the tulku system, they are essentially saying people like Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, whom they claim to be devoted to, are wrong to support the tulku system. Trijang Rinpoche recognised and gave chadaks (recognition papers) to countless tulkus. Were all of his recognitions wrong? Was Trijang Rinpoche wrong to perpetuate the tulku system, and only the NKT / ISBC are right to be against it? What more is there to say about the thousands of other lamas who have given recognition papers too. Baffles me that Heruka can be capable of leading us to enlightenment, and yet be wrong about the tulku system.
And if Trijang Rinpoche was wrong about the tulku system, as many ISBC members have implied through their actions and what they say, then what else was Trijang Rinpoche wrong about that these practitioners rely on now? Was Trijang Rinpoche wrong about Dorje Shugden practice too? :-\ so do the ISBC members' prayers to Dorje Shugden have any effect since their lineage of Shugden prayers came from an 'incorrect' lama who supported the tulku system?
And we all know the NKT is always changing their minds. They don't like the oracle now, but they previously requested Duldzin through the oracle to compose long life prayers to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. It's printed in their own books, see pictures below. Reciting long life prayers creates the causes for our teachers to live long, especially when our prayers are sincere requests. The purpose of long life prayers, as quoted by FPMT, is that we purify our relationships with our teachers (samaya or damtsik). So shouldn't NKT discredit these prayers now they don't believe in the oracular system too? And are the years and the hundreds of students who recited these long life prayers for Geshe-la wasted, with no impact or effect?
So you see, NKT do (or at least, did) believe in oracles as they requested him to write a prayer for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's long life. By the way, for those who don't know, the Choyang Dulzin Kuten who wrote these prayers while in trance is actually Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's uncle. There are some pictures of him below during his time in England, when he even took trance in NKT premises like Madhyamaka Centre.
(https://thedorjeshugdengroup.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/kutenlamamanjushriulverston.jpg?w=500)
Choyang Dulzin Kuten in Manjushri Kadampa Centre, in Ulverston. That's the NKT headquarters by the way.
(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/fea-kuten1.jpg)
Here you've got Lama Gangchen with Choyang Dulzin Kuten again, somewhere in England.
(http://www.shugdentoday.com/wp-content/gallery/choyang-dulzin-kuten/01oracle-choyang.jpg)
Choyang Dulzin Kuten in peaceful trance of Dorje Shugden at Madhayamaka Centre. He was able to take trance of the peaceful and wrathful forms of Dorje Shugden. It must have been one of the peaceful trances when he composed the long life prayers to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/fea-kuten2.jpg)
Choyang Dulzin Kuten again, somewhere in Western Europe (England perhaps?). This oracle was by all accounts a very kind person, and a fine oracle who gave very accurate prophecies and answers.
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And important addition since I lack the ability to make edits to my post:
Based on my research, it takes a highly skilled and attained individual to create oracles. In fact, the deity that enters the oracle (especially if it's a higher being) is only moved or subdued by bodhicitta. If you have bodhicitta, you can create oracles because you have the ability to 'command' the deity to enter the appropriate receptacle.
That would therefore explain why masters like Trijang Rinpoche, the Jetsun Damba (Mongolian lama), Domo Geshe Rinpoche were able to create oracles. Under the scrutiny of thousands of monks
And being the calibre of practitioners that they are, it would also explain why masters like Pabongka Rinpoche had no issue relying on oracles that were authenticated by these teachers. Masters like Pabongka Rinpoche trusted these oracles. The Dalai Lama trusted (and still trusts!) his oracles.
But of course, NKT asserts that they know better than Pabongka Rinpoche when it comes to the oracular and tulku systems...
I have read also that oracles are not accepted right off the bat and are tested. New oracles are asked questions previously posed to the deity 30-40 years ago, that there is no way the new oracle would've been present for or heard about. An authentic oracle will be able to recite the answer given 30-40 years ago back to the questioner verbatim, word-for-word.
But the point of this all is, if you can trust someone to bring you to enlightenment, wouldn't you say that that person would also be capable of "lower" skills like creating oracles? Enlightenment is a much loftier goal than oracle-making and for someone of Trijang Rinpoche's calibre, to make oracles would be a walk in the park.
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Thank you @aboutthetruth for sharing the information. It's indeed very hypocritical of the NKT to criticize the oracle and tulku system when they themselves have been relying on both either directly or indirectly. Maybe there's a need for the NKT to attend a history lesson about their own background LOL...
It's absolutely their freedom to choose not to believe in the oracular and tulku systems, after all it's a personal belief; But they should not force it down others' throats when it comes to things they don't agree with, the worst thing is they do anything to put down peoples' beliefs just so that they can 'get their point across'. Who do they think they are? Who gives them the authority to defy the Buddha's teachings and slander others' beliefs? Is this how Buddhists should act? We have so many different beliefs and religions that co-exist with Buddhism, for example, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Bon and many more. So are the NKT going to defy each of these religions? Of course not, they don't dare to.
They have Geshe Kelsang Gyatso as the head of the centre and therefore they think that they can say whatever they want and alter whatever systems that were already there since hundreds of years in the history of Tibetan Buddhism. No, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is NOT THE ONLY teacher in the Gelug lineage. I do not mean any disrespect, we have Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and many more other elite masters who have contributed so much towards Tibetan Buddhism. Through their enlightened works and manifestations, they have benefited millions of people all over the world, this is undeniable. Therefore on what basis that NKT are trying to defy the systems created by all these great masters? Are they enlightened? Are they all Buddhas already? If we concede with their actions and allow them to alter whatever systems they like as and when, what is going to happen to Tibetan Buddhism 20 years, 50 years from now? It's very dangerous of them, religion is not a game, you don't change the rules just because you don't agree with it or don't find it helpful anymore. Shame on the NKT... :( They should really mind their own business already and stop creating havocs and further discredit Tibetan Buddhism.
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NKT sure seems like a bunch of clueless hypocrites, because the more the speak out, the more they look silly. The reason being is that they are very quick to forget where it all came from. Where they even got their teachings from. It stops at just Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. This also indicates they could never move forward as they lack the appreciation and the acknowledgements of the lineage lamas the moment they condemn the Tulku system.
Sometimes I wonder where they get their bazaar illogical ideas from? The one to look at is Geshe-la himself, which makes me wonder if Geshe-la was the one who authorises these so-called caucasian Kelsangs in maroon robes to go out to spread lies, schism and disharmony with others.
Yes, I agree with their fickle mindedness, they are hot then they are cold with many issues, the thing is who made them the authority and to judge others if they are real Tulkus or not? Although there are some Tulkus who do not continue and fulfil their roles, that does not mean all Tulkus are bad and wrong. It is like them saying just because of one experience with an Indian, that means all Indians are bad? How can that be, how can they just stereotype that the entire Tulku system is wrong when so many incarnated Lamas including their own Lama comes from this very system. So I guess they will not recognise their own incarnate Lama, that can never happen because they will just dismiss him.
And if they dismiss the Tulku system that means they dismiss the entire lineage Lamas. So if they are tantric practitioners and they recite the names of the lineage lamas, they gain no blessing and no attainments since they do not recognise Tulkus, no?
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Dear AboutTheTruth
Thank you for this eye opening information. I have heard before that NKT used to believe in the oracle system, but due to some reasons that were not revealed to the public, NKT stopped consulting Dorje Shugden via oracles. It is interesting to find out that the famed Choyang Kuten, was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's uncle, and NKT members have requested Dorje Shugden to compose a long-life prayer via this oracle.
Before he was enthroned as an oracle, Choyang Kuten Lama, was observed by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. When Dorje Shugden took trance via Choyang Kuten's body, he announced that:
"Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama was an oracle for a manifestation of Dorje Shugden and that if he fulfilled all the requirements, he would be very beneficial to beings in the future."
The oracle tradition is quite common in the monastery, and even Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's root guru, had been consulting Dorje Shugden via oracles on many occasions. The advice given by Dorje Shugden via oracles that have been properly trained are proven to be very accurate. Even the Dalai Lama's escape from Tibet to India was due to the advice of Dorje Shugden who took trance via the famous Panglung kuten. Therefore, it is true that even though the current NKT members do not accept the oracle system, it does not mean that the system is not valid.
I respect Geshe Kelsang Gyatso very much, and he has certainly worked hard to spread the Dharma and Dorje Shugden lineage. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has always emphasised on Guru devotion in his teaching. Surely, he would not refute his root guru's, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche conviction in the oracle system. Therefore, if Geshe Kelsang advised to not use oracles in his centres, it must have been for some other reasons. Keeping this in mind, NKT members should maintain an open mind and respect the oracle system that is still pretty much alive today.
Michaela
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If the NKT wants to discredit tulkus, lineage lamas and oracles, based on their 'truth' and 'logic', then why are they still relying on the practices, texts and scriptures of the previous tulkus in the Gaden tradition.
They should start their particular own lineage and tradition, maybe even compose their own curriculum based on the Kangyur and Tangyur, they should not rely on the works previous lineage lamas who were recognized as tulkus. NKT should come out with their own Lamrim, Ngagrim, Lojong without referring to contaminated teachings and works of tulkus, any works after Lama Tsongkhapa from tulkus should be discredited and omitted. Example works from Panchen Sonam Dragpa, monastic textbooks, if those information had existed as part of what Geshela had used to develop the NKT curriculum, then these should be purged out from all of NKT's 'Modern Buddhism' so there is no more contamination.
The previous Trijang Rinpoche was a tulku too, recognized exactly using the same system as now. So why is the Previous Trijang Rinpoche authentic teacher of NKT's spiritual director, but the new incarnation Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche who is recognized via exactly the same way is not authentic.
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How can NKT speak against the Tulku system? Do they have the knowledge to talk about the Tulku system? Well, it seems not as we can see that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso did rely on an oracle. Why putting down their own teacher and why reciting the long life prayer for their teacher, written by the Choyang Dulzin Kuten, the Dorje Shugden oracle?
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's root guru was Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and he surely does rely on the Tulku systm. Does NKT want to say that Geshe Kelsang's root teacher is wrong? I guess it is time for NKT to reflect on their history and the basis of Tibetan Buddhism.
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Look at what I saw from a friend's twitter and what this Kelsang Sanglam posted... anyone care or wish to response to his remarks, please feel free!
It is just so funny how they got NO knowledge of the Tulku system but wants to be against it just because a few Tulku's did not "meet" their projections or said they were not Tulkus? It is like a bunch of racist people who says all Muslim are terrorist! How ridiculous and prejudice is that?!
And all this is suddenly happening because... suddenly Geshe-la wants to bring attention to HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and create a drama out of nothing, out of a system he himself has been relying on. And all this for what? When NKT/ISBC decided to USE Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche's students/followers and friends for the protest, everything seems "fine". Why so two face? They are such a strange bunch, no wonder they are hated by so many people.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/1z6y0l3.png)
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And all this is suddenly happening because... suddenly Geshe-la wants to bring attention to HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and create a drama out of nothing,
Can you prove that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind NKT's stupid, defamatory statements?
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Trump and his supporters are a perfect example of that.
What a long shot. Could you elaborate on what Trump and his supporters have to do with the tulku system?
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What exactly is your opinion? That the tulku system is flawless and that it can never be misused?
Sanglam's idiotic implication is that his favorite (NKT's) non-tulku system is necessary flawless and can never be misused.
Where is tulku policy taught in the sutras and tantras?
Sanglam's idiotic implication is that sutras and tantras do not teach nirmanakaya.
Another of Sanglam's idiotic implications is that Dorje Shugden having had previous incarnations, such as Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, is in contradiction with the sutras and tantras.
Why would a real tulku be recognized?
Sanglam's idiotic implication is that a real tulku should not be recognized, and therefore that the Buddha and Dorje Shugden, themselves nirmanakayas or tulkus, should not be recognized.
Another of Sanglam's idiotic implications is that a reality, such a real tulku, should not be recognized, and therefore that ignorance is better than knowledge.
So do you believe that there have been no fake tulkus?
Sanglam's idiotic implication is that the existence of one fake tulku implies the fakeness of all tulkus.
Everyone can see that the tulku system is corrupted.
Sanglam's idiotic implication is that NKT system is itself not corrupted, no matter how idiotic are his members' implications.
Why because more and more tulkus are publicly saying that they are not tulkus.
Sanglam's idiotic implication is that if such tulkus would keep secret that they are not tulkus, the tulku system would not be corrupted.
I am against that. Most of the soo (sic) called tulkus are taken when they are very young.
Sanglam's idiotic implication is that young children should be denied Buddhist education.
Just because something worked in the past does not mean it is not misused now
Sanglam's idiotic implication is that just because something is misused now it should not be used at all.
Another of Sanglam's idiotic implications is that the recognition of tulkus worked in the past, even though, according to himself, a real tulku should never be recognized.
Why is it necessary to have tulkus? Please defend this view.
Sanglam's idiotic implication is that the Buddha did not teach the need of nirmanakayas, or tulkus.
I believe most of them are fake. Some may be true.
Sanglam's idiotic implication is that a true tulku should be denied recognition just because some tulkus are fake, or that true gold should be denied recognition just because there is fake gold.
I am against the system that kidnaps little boys and uses them for there (sic) own personal reasons.
Sanglam's idiotic implication is that NKT's non-tulku system is not serving NKT owners' own personal reasons.
Another of Sanglam's idiotic implications is that he is concerned with the freedom of little boys recognized as tulkus not to receive a Buddhist education.
Again another of Sanglam's idiotic implications is that now he is the representative of the rights and interests of the little boys recognized as tulkus, over and above even their own parents.
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Bottom line, such is the degeneration of NKT's non-tulku system that such an excrescence as Sanglam together with his preposterous views was produced by it.
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NKT has gotten the limelight again! Everything they do raise eyebrows in good and bad ways and their opinion on the tulku system and oracle are one of those bad ones. While I appreciate all they have done for Dorje Shugden (or he helped them) and the lineage, one cannot ignore the fact that they are also destroying the lineage at the same time. The use of high level oracles have been a tradition in Tibetan Buddhism for centuries with a system where suitable candidates are being trained by high calibre lamas who are often tulkus themselves. The advice and prophecies given have been proven right in most cases. This is due to the practises and retreats prescribed to the oracle so that his or her body is ready to be entered by the oracle. The lama training the oracle supervise the oracle very closely including their dreams, spiritual experiences, body changes etc. throughout the training and then the other high lamas will give the authentication. This process is very strict and not up to just any individuals and none of the decision is being made loosely. What on earth is NKT talking about? What does Geshe Kelsang Gyatso thinking?
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And all this is suddenly happening because... suddenly Geshe-la wants to bring attention to HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and create a drama out of nothing,
Can you prove that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind NKT's stupid, defamatory statements?
Well who else could it be? They are all so robotic, they will dare do anything if only Geshe-la approves. It is well known, can ask any NKT/ex-NKT. And such a zainy idea can only come from Geshe-la. You think these kind of defamatory statements would come naturally and daringly from the Kelsangs? You think they would dare go against their own Guru's Guru IF Geshe-la did not agree and told them to do so and give them the green light? Think about it, who is the top? He is the greatest mastermind, he was the one who asked them to start the protest against Dalai Lama and attempted to bring Dalai Lama to court. What proof? Let's just say an old cat from the NKT block whispered to me and I am sure many others.
But I do like your questions back to the idiotic Sanglam! It makes logical sense! Thanks
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NKT sure seems like a bunch of clueless hypocrites, because the more the speak out, the more they look silly. The reason being is that they are very quick to forget where it all came from. Where they even got their teachings from. It stops at just Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. This also indicates they could never move forward as they lack the appreciation and the acknowledgements of the lineage lamas the moment they condemn the Tulku system.
Sometimes I wonder where they get their bazaar illogical ideas from? The one to look at is Geshe-la himself, which makes me wonder if Geshe-la was the one who authorises these so-called caucasian Kelsangs in maroon robes to go out to spread lies, schism and disharmony with others.
Yes, I agree with their fickle mindedness, they are hot then they are cold with many issues, the thing is who made them the authority and to judge others if they are real Tulkus or not? Although there are some Tulkus who do not continue and fulfil their roles, that does not mean all Tulkus are bad and wrong. It is like them saying just because of one experience with an Indian, that means all Indians are bad? How can that be, how can they just stereotype that the entire Tulku system is wrong when so many incarnated Lamas including their own Lama comes from this very system. So I guess they will not recognise their own incarnate Lama, that can never happen because they will just dismiss him.
And if they dismiss the Tulku system that means they dismiss the entire lineage Lamas. So if they are tantric practitioners and they recite the names of the lineage lamas, they gain no blessing and no attainments since they do not recognise Tulkus, no?
You made a point there, the NKT seem to forget so quickly that all they have been taught today came from the lineage masters and tulkus before Geshe Kelsang Gyatso came in line. It's very ignorant of them to refute the tulku system when most of the things they themselves teach today came directly from all these erudite masters whose main purpose of incarnation is to preserve and perpetuate the Buddha's teachings.
As a matter of fact, we are all tulkus, there are many different levels of tulkus just like there are many different levels of Bodhisattvas. Ordinary people like you and I belong to the lowest level of tulkus, so since there are so many levels of tulkus, it would mean that amongst us there are tulkus who are emanations of the Buddha. The word tulku means Nirmanakaya which is one of the three Kayas. What the NKT are doing now is they are rejecting the system that came directly from the Buddha, so are they trying to say that the Buddha was wrong? All the teachings that have been passed down for hundreds of years are faulty? Would that mean whatever they are teaching now is defective too?
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Wonder if this video applies? Seriously Kelsangs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61SJ3f1J1DM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61SJ3f1J1DM)
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Dear AboutTheTruth
Thank you for this eye opening information. I have heard before that NKT used to believe in the oracle system, but due to some reasons that were not revealed to the public, NKT stopped consulting Dorje Shugden via oracles. It is interesting to find out that the famed Choyang Kuten, was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's uncle, and NKT members have requested Dorje Shugden to compose a long-life prayer via this oracle.
Before he was enthroned as an oracle, Choyang Kuten Lama, was observed by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. When Dorje Shugden took trance via Choyang Kuten's body, he announced that:
"Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama was an oracle for a manifestation of Dorje Shugden and that if he fulfilled all the requirements, he would be very beneficial to beings in the future."
The oracle tradition is quite common in the monastery, and even Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's root guru, had been consulting Dorje Shugden via oracles on many occasions. The advice given by Dorje Shugden via oracles that have been properly trained are proven to be very accurate. Even the Dalai Lama's escape from Tibet to India was due to the advice of Dorje Shugden who took trance via the famous Panglung kuten. Therefore, it is true that even though the current NKT members do not accept the oracle system, it does not mean that the system is not valid.
I respect Geshe Kelsang Gyatso very much, and he has certainly worked hard to spread the Dharma and Dorje Shugden lineage. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has always emphasised on Guru devotion in his teaching. Surely, he would not refute his root guru's, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche conviction in the oracle system. Therefore, if Geshe Kelsang advised to not use oracles in his centres, it must have been for some other reasons. Keeping this in mind, NKT members should maintain an open mind and respect the oracle system that is still pretty much alive today.
Michaela
It's indeed interesting to know that the Choyang Kuten was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's uncle, what's more powerful is the fact that a long life prayer was composed by Dorje Shugden for Geshe Kelsang Gytaso via the oracle which was again his uncle. The sudden denial of the oracular system is unexplainable, even to ordinary people like you and I, it just does not make sense at all.
As we all know, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is very devoted to the previous Trijang Rinpoche. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche in his previous life has created a few world renowned Dorje Shugden oracles such as the Panglung Kuten and Choyang Kuten. These oracles have taken trances of Dorje Shugden, healing hundreds and thousands of people around the world and have given crucial, life-saving advices to various high lamas including His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama himself during the 1959 Tibetan uprising. The previous Panglung Kuten took trance of Dorje Shugden and advised His Holiness to leave Tibet during that period of time and protected His Holiness throughout the entire journey.
Therefore it'd be incorrect for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso/ NKT to refute the oracular system now because that would mean that Trijang Rinpoche was wrong for creating these oracles in the first place. It's fine that they decided to turn against Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and break their samaya with the lineage masters, but they should not discourage, force and expect others to give up on their beliefs and follow them. It's absolutely incorrect, all these systems have been in place for the last few hundreds of years, it's not up to you or me or a group of people to modify it when they feel like it. The NKT should really learn up how to respect others...
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(http://i63.tinypic.com/1z6y0l3.png)
These sets of tweets by Sanglam says a lot about the NKT today. Sanglam himself has no basis nor knowledge to form any genuine doctrinal arguments and he merely parrots what he has heard.
To begin with, Samglam wants to portray Tibetan Buddhism as an antiquated, out-of-date and corrupt system (which is the NKT's way of saying the NKT is the supreme Bddhist institution today) and points to the 'tulku system' as representing the corruption in Tibetan Buddhism.
The tulku concept is not even an invention of Tibetan Buddhism. The term tulku is simply the Tibetan translation of the Sanskri, 'nirmanakaya' (emanation body). Tibetan Buddhist lamas did not invent this concept and it was the old Indian Buddhist Schools that first viewed the Buddha is His various bodies especially after His parinirvana.
It was the Sarvastivadins who began commenting on the 'kaya' of the Buddha and the Mahasanghikas who conceived of the 2 'kaya' of the Buddha - rupakaya (nirmanakaya) and dharmakaya. The Mahasanghikas emerged about a century after the Buddha's passing and their doctrines are commonly found in the Astasaharsrika Prajna Paramita.
Then the Yogacara School that emerged in the 4th century CE further developed the system, and separated rupakaya into nirmanakaya (gross rupakaya) and sambhogakaya (subtle rupakaya).
If Sanglam's contention is that we should abolish the tulku system because it is being abused by greedy people, then should we similarly abolish any system that has hints of corruption and abuse? Presidents, Prime Ministers and heads of states, CEO's of large and small companies do not come to power by the tulku system but there is an endless list of names of nations and corporations that are known to be corrupt.
The NKT is not known to practice the tulku system but the NKT is not short of its own scandals created by persons who were personally selected by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and/or elected by the NKT establishment. Do we then say the NKT system should be abolished?
Looking at Sanglam's behavior, we see that the NKT has successfully reduced the practice of Buddhism and steered it away from training one's own Mind to condemning the beliefs and practices of other schools and religion. Where in the Sutra or Tantra is that taught?
"Just because something worked in the past does not mean it is not misused now" says Sanglam. That's true in principle but we do not eradicate a working system just because the NKT says so. The tulku concept worked for many centuries and has accounted for the successful transmission of many important teachings and lineages. The NKT does not have the infrastructure to nurture tulkus or train oracles. To do that, the NKT has to have the involvement of qualified lamas and systems apart from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Geshela alone cannot do it. So for the NKT not to abide by the tulku system or have oracular practices is understandable and acceptable. That too doesn't mean that without the tulku system no Buddhist centre can succeed. But for the NKT to vehemently deny something because they cannot be or do not wish to be a part of it is just deluded.
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If the NKT does not believe in the tulku system that's just fine with me.
Of course this means that they do not believe in Dorje Shugden or "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen.
So NKT do you believe in "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen and his "TULKU" lineage or will you now deny him and Dorje Shugden?
You can't have it both ways.
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If the NKT does not believe in the tulku system that's just fine with me.
Of course this means that they do not believe in Dorje Shugden or "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen.
So NKT do you believe in "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen and his "TULKU" lineage or will you now deny him and Dorje Shugden?
You can't have it both ways.
Good point. It's sad that NKT would deny the very foundation of Tibetan Buddhism. The very fact that Dorje Shugden arose from one of the move revered incarnations - Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. And the very fact that they are worshipping him and deriving powerful protection from his practice shows contradiction in their believe system.
I think its fine if a casual practitioner not have full faith but if a whole organization that consists of many senior practitioners denies this fundamental element, they deny the very foundation of the lineage. They deny the fact that there are certain masters who had developed genuine bodhichitta and the very fact that they will return and that they have the same quality of bodhichitta as they had before in a previous life. On top of that, what would the negative karma be for one who disparages a bodhisattva.
Furthermore, the same reasoning can be extended towards oracles. For oracles, we may or may not have faith but great lamas like Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche had faith and trained and authorized oracles to take trance of various protector deities, especially Dorje Shugden. So, denial does not disprove oracles and does little to change the tremendous benefit that genuine oracles of our lineage can bring to others and the lineage.
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Very good point.
How will NKT answer this?
:o
If the NKT does not believe in the tulku system that's just fine with me.
Of course this means that they do not believe in Dorje Shugden or "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen.
So NKT do you believe in "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen and his "TULKU" lineage or will you now deny him and Dorje Shugden?
You can't have it both ways.
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Nice bit of back and forth here on Atisha's Cook's wall. He's been quiet this last year or so since ISC / NKT shut down their operations.
But good on Gen Jamkar for answering so well. Direct, not rude, factual and he brought up some pertinent points about NKT's hypocrisy. In referring to Gen Jamkar, we are talking about a senior member in NKT, an elder, now criticising the organisation's role in starting up this whole tulku system issue and detracting from the real issue (i.e. religious freedom for Shugden practitioners).
Gen Jamkar makes reference to the fact NKT recites songs composed by an oracle, while criticising the oracle himself. What about the prayers that NKT / ISBC members recite, which were composed by tulkus and people who gave recognition to tulkus? What about the teachings NKT promotes and organises classes on, which were taught and held by tulkus and people who gave recognition to tulkus?
It is NKT's right to believe that what Trijang Rinpoche did may not apply today, yes that's their right to do so. But NKT is simultaneously under the assumption that everyone in the "wider global community" today is exactly the same in character, upbringing, belief and cultural identity. So are they right to assume someone who practises in Taiwan has the same values as someone raised in the UK? No, not really. Atisha's Cook and NKT are free to believe some views are anachronistic and redundant to them, but they have no business and no right imposing their judgements on anyone.
What they are doing is similar to the colonialists of the 19th century, forcing people to stare down the barrel of a gun and believe that "My Judeo-Christian view is the right and only view, and you're going to follow that, or else." Or in NKT / ISBC's case, "You're going to follow our view or we will launch a social media campaign to insult and defame you".
Don't they see how hypocritical it is to protest for religious freedom in one breath, and then turn around and criticise everyone else who doesn't agree with their beliefs? Isn't it other people's religious freedom to believe in whatever they want? Calling Gonsar Tulku a "troublemaker" for refusing to comply? That's just rude and unnecessary. Since when did Gonsar Tulku have to answer to Atisha's Cook and Rabten?
Atisha's Cook def does himself no favours when he paraphrases his guru as saying things like "mystical horseshit divination". Doesn't paint his teacher in a very good light...it's nice to know Geshe-la is so dismissive of something Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche and a whole host of other teachers engaged in.
So is Atisha's Cook right in this, and everyone else in the Gelug tradition wrong? :-\ Atisha's Cook should just get in line with Rabten then.
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NKT is not helping in spreading Dharma at all. People are already criticising why are there controversies surrounding Gelug lineage, for example how can NKT call His Holiness fake, how can they call him a liar; and now NKT is calling Trijang Rinpoche fake too! It is as if there's not enough troubles for Dorje Shugden practitioners. Is NKT trying to imply all Lamas are fake except for their own guru? Even older NKT Sangha cannot tolerate what NKT is doing now, criticising Trijang Rinpoche.
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If the NKT wants to discredit tulkus, lineage lamas and oracles, based on their 'truth' and 'logic', then why are they still relying on the practices, texts and scriptures of the previous tulkus in the Gaden tradition.
They should start their particular own lineage and tradition, maybe even compose their own curriculum based on the Kangyur and Tangyur, they should not rely on the works previous lineage lamas who were recognized as tulkus. NKT should come out with their own Lamrim, Ngagrim, Lojong without referring to contaminated teachings and works of tulkus, any works after Lama Tsongkhapa from tulkus should be discredited and omitted. Example works from Panchen Sonam Dragpa, monastic textbooks, if those information had existed as part of what Geshela had used to develop the NKT curriculum, then these should be purged out from all of NKT's 'Modern Buddhism' so there is no more contamination.
The previous Trijang Rinpoche was a tulku too, recognized exactly using the same system as now. So why is the Previous Trijang Rinpoche authentic teacher of NKT's spiritual director, but the new incarnation Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche who is recognized via exactly the same way is not authentic.
The fact that they are still relying and perpetuating on the teachings passed down to them from the lineage masters proves that the contents and methods are effective. From a Buddhist point of view, one may have a lot of knowledge and have stayed in retreats for the longest time but once they start criticizing their lineage masters, whatever little attainments they may have accumulated prior to that will go down the drain.
Every single attainment they have collected is due to the practice and knowledge that flow through the foundation of the lineage masters. Therefore if they demolish the foundation, they demolish the lineage masters.
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They should start their particular own lineage and tradition, maybe even compose their own curriculum based on the Kangyur and Tangyur, they should not rely on the works previous lineage lamas who were recognized as tulkus. NKT should come out with their own Lamrim, Ngagrim, Lojong without referring to contaminated teachings and works of tulkus, any works after Lama Tsongkhapa from tulkus should be discredited and omitted. Example works from Panchen Sonam Dragpa, monastic textbooks, if those information had existed as part of what Geshela had used to develop the NKT curriculum, then these should be purged out from all of NKT's 'Modern Buddhism' so there is no more contamination.
Absolutely agree with what has been written here. If the NKT are so great and are such 'high practitioners', who don't they themselves come up with a completely new set of education system and get rid of the 'impure' teachings taught by the lineage masters since they were all tulkus in their previous lives? It's very convenient for them to say and deny this and that when they 'feel' like there needs to be a change in the system to so called 'adapt' to the modern times.
Most of the people nowadays chase after a materialistic life, spirituality is rarely something they consider having in their daily lives. This would mean that the attachments nowadays are stronger and far more varied as compared to a few decades ago. This happened due to a human-caused problem which is our greed, it has nothing to do with the systems or whatsoever. So even if they reject the tulku and oracular systems now, it still doesn't solve the root cause which is human attitudes. What's worst is for your convenience, you change the systems in order to justify you not being able to practice and develop mind transformation, so what's the point of practicing at all?
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So I assume that Geshe la is now admitting his has given wrong teachings.
He use to teach about the purity and greatness of Tulkus but now he doesn't.
So your previous public teachings on Tulkus were wrong which means you were WRONG.
You use to publicly teach about the greatness of Oracles but now you don't.
So your previous teachings on Oracles were wrong which means you were WRONG.
If you were so wrong about your public teachings about Tulkus and Oracles what else have you taught that was and is now WRONG.
You now admit you give WRONG teachings which means you are WRONG.
Geshe la please warn your followers that todays teaching may be correct but in the future they may become WRONG.
Thank you Geshe la for publicly admitting to your NKT followers and the world that you give WRONG teachings as a warming to all of us.
You are very brave in doing so.
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It's just one thing after another with these people. I understand that they are spreading the teachings and kudos to them for doing this, but the manner in which they portray others, the manner in which the demean others, and the manner in which they put force their ascribed view on to other people is not write. Even what they do and say is hypocritical.
Even if they don't believe in tulkus or oracles, that's fine. The are obviously entitled to their view about the issue, as are we. But their stance verses what they do is hypocritical. I mean, they say that oracles do not exist, but recite the prayers composed by the Holy Protector in trance of an oracle. If they don't exist, they why do they still recite the prayers. On the other hand, they also claim that the oracle that visited them was in fact a real oracle, those who met him and participated, even claim that it was the real Dorje Shugden who took control of the oracle and gave teachings. Why is it then, that they have such conflicting views. I'm confused, and i bet those on the inside are even more confused as to what they should be believing.
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I fear that Geshe la has fallen to the greatest of all the "Demons".
He has fallen to the the "Demon of Exaltation".
He now thinks himself greater then the "Teachings".
He now thinks himself greater then the "Tulkus" and their lineages.
He now thinks himself greater than the "Oracles" and their lineages.
Worst of all he thinks himself greater then his "Teachers".
It is almost impossible to free one self from the grasp of the "Demon of Exaltation".
Pray for Geshe la.
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How can NKT speak against the Tulku system? Do they have the knowledge to talk about the Tulku system? Well, it seems not as we can see that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso did rely on an oracle. Why putting down their own teacher and why reciting the long life prayer for their teacher, written by the Choyang Dulzin Kuten, the Dorje Shugden oracle?
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's root guru was Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and he surely does rely on the Tulku systm. Does NKT want to say that Geshe Kelsang's root teacher is wrong? I guess it is time for NKT to reflect on their history and the basis of Tibetan Buddhism.
It's indeed very ironic of the NKT for speaking against the tulku & oracular systems that have been put in place by great lineage masters of the past who they now learn the teachings from. Why do you criticize, oppose and encourage people to abandon one's methods yet you continue to practice and use their teachings? If the system is faulty, it would mean that the foundation of their teachings is defective as well, so why are the NKT still using these teachings?
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If the [tulku] system is faulty, it would mean that the foundation of their teachings is defective as well, so why are the NKT still using these teachings?
NKT's attacks against the tulku system are necessitated by NKT's administrators desperate need to justify and legitimize themselves and their NKT, in the anticipated absence of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
Knowing that no successor of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso will ever enjoy his authority, NKT's administrators resort to attacking tulku succession in order to distract people from NKT's own lackluster succession.
A bit like the Catholic Church attacking the devil in order to distract people from their god's ownlackluster performance, or like the evil dalie attacking Shugdenpas in order to distract people from his own failures.
In other words, such attacks are a confession by the NKT's administrators' of their lack of confidence in their own leadership, and capacity successfully to run NKT in the absence of Geshe Keksang Gyatso.
Their logic is a logic of corporate survival, as they foresee the inexorability of NKT's disintegration in the absence of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, but they want to keep alive what became a profitable enterprise.
They need to attack and demonize Trijang Rinpoche, Gonsar Rinpoche, and other traditional Shugden lamas, because they know that NKT students will flock to them as soon as Geshe Gelsang Gyatso disappears.
Lacking any credible leadership after Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's disappearance, they see hatred against other Shugden lamas as the only unifying factor capable of preventing NKT's disintegration. They need such hatred.
Therefore, it is beside the point to discuss the logic, or lack thereof, of the arguments brought by NKT's propagandists. They are not interested in logic. They are interested in a story which might ensure their survival.
They know that NKT will disintegrate, and they are angry with their unavoidable fate. Without Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, NKT is a rottening corpse exhaling putrid odors polluting the Buddhist environment.
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NKT has gotten the limelight again! Everything they do raise eyebrows in good and bad ways and their opinion on the tulku system and oracle are one of those bad ones. While I appreciate all they have done for Dorje Shugden (or he helped them) and the lineage, one cannot ignore the fact that they are also destroying the lineage at the same time. The use of high level oracles have been a tradition in Tibetan Buddhism for centuries with a system where suitable candidates are being trained by high calibre lamas who are often tulkus themselves. The advice and prophecies given have been proven right in most cases. This is due to the practises and retreats prescribed to the oracle so that his or her body is ready to be entered by the oracle. The lama training the oracle supervise the oracle very closely including their dreams, spiritual experiences, body changes etc. throughout the training and then the other high lamas will give the authentication. This process is very strict and not up to just any individuals and none of the decision is being made loosely. What on earth is NKT talking about? What does Geshe Kelsang Gyatso thinking?
You are totally right, the NKT may have done a lot for the practice of Dorje Shugden but currently what they are doing, is going to affect Tibetan Buddhism and the systems greatly. All these systems have been in placed for the last few hundred years, millions of people have been benefited from them for sure. None of them/ us have the authority or power to judge and alter since they can no longer agree with the systems anymore.
It's the same thing as comparing to the Buddha's teachings, just because you do not agree with a certain teachings or you can't adapt to the views, it does not give you or anyone the right to change it. Frankly, if you find yourself not adapting to the system or teachings, it should be your job to look for another lineage and continue with your practice if you think that will help.
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The claim made by ISBC is made that their intention is...
'To protect Je Tsongkhapas doctrine……'
It is also said about the tulku recognition, Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche that.....
'This is a great humiliation for Trijang Rinpoche ....and for the International Shugden Buddhist Community….'
Given these fundamental claims, has the ISBC made a 'political' decision or changed it's view?
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If the NKT does not believe in the tulku system that's just fine with me.
Of course this means that they do not believe in Dorje Shugden or "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen.
So NKT do you believe in "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen and his "TULKU" lineage or will you now deny him and Dorje Shugden?
You can't have it both ways.
Very good question Harold, they certainly won't be able to answer this question without sounding ignorant and ironic. Since they do not believe in the tulku system, every single teaching that was passed down by great tulkus from the past must be eliminated from their teachings/ books/ websites. They can't preach people something they themselves do not even have faith in, then what's the point of teaching then? They should just come up with their own set of teachings and practices since they know better than H.H Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, H.H Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche...
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If the NKT does not believe in the tulku system that's just fine with me.
Of course this means that they do not believe in Dorje Shugden or "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen.
So NKT do you believe in "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen and his "TULKU" lineage or will you now deny him and Dorje Shugden?
You can't have it both ways.
Very good question Harold, they certainly won't be able to answer this question without sounding ignorant and ironic. Since they do not believe in the tulku system, every single teaching that was passed down by great tulkus from the past must be eliminated from their teachings/ books/ websites. They can't preach people something they themselves do not even have faith in, then what's the point of teaching then? They should just come up with their own set of teachings and practices since they know better than H.H Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, H.H Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche...
And since they do not want to recognise such a system then might as well STOP practising Buddhism altogether because these lineage Lamas teachings all leads back to the main source which is Lord Buddha! What on earth are they going on about? It is one thing to be ignorant, it is another to be ignorant and stubborn and self-righteous. It is no wonder why people call them a "cult" and they are so hated by so many and no they make themselves hated not only by those anti-Shugden groups but now even those who are Shugden, they are pushing an alienating. Soon they will have no one to turn to in times of trouble!
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I leave the discussion about Tulkus to those more qualified. If the NKT wishes to remove that system from the organisation that is fine. I believe the statement about organising protests, now withdrawn, was another example of the way it responds when a perceived threat arises. This organisation is known for resorting to threats of legal action. It is a method which generally works as individuals can rarely afford going to court. One notable exception was that of Highden Manor in New Zealand. The NKT claimed their reputation was damaged and wanted £2 million damages. The court found against them and awarded damages the other way. The NKT never turned up to defend the case. As far as the Tulku situation is concerned, they appear to have believed they could influence the rest of the Buddhist community. When it became clear that they were on their own, they backed off. Self imposed humiliation?
Please insert the word 'not' in front of any reference to the NKT as we all know the NKT is not the WSS/SSC/ISC/ISBC.
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NKT is not helping in spreading Dharma at all. People are already criticising why are there controversies surrounding Gelug lineage, for example how can NKT call His Holiness fake, how can they call him a liar; and now NKT is calling Trijang Rinpoche fake too! It is as if there's not enough troubles for Dorje Shugden practitioners. Is NKT trying to imply all Lamas are fake except for their own guru? Even older NKT Sangha cannot tolerate what NKT is doing now, criticising Trijang Rinpoche.
You're right KungPo, NKT is not even close to spreading Dharma at all. If they don't practice Dharma themselves, who are they going to preach the Buddha's teachings to? As a Buddhist, we are not supposed to criticize and talk down about another teacher, a religion, a system. That is definitely not what the Buddha has taught, contrary, the Buddha has always talked about practicing acceptance, understanding and tolerance. What is the NKT trying to do now? They claimed that their objective is to protect Lama Tsongkhapa's doctrine, now I wonder how are they going to 'protect' Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings by being so rude and barbaric... Very very bad example of how a Dharma practitioner should behave...
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Gabby Potter
"As a Buddhist, we are not supposed to criticize and talk down about another teacher, a religion, a system. That is definitely not what the Buddha has taught, contrary, the Buddha has always talked about practicing acceptance, understanding and tolerance."
Sorry Potter but your wrong. The sutras tells us that the Buddha would engage in debates with teachers from other beliefs. He would show them that their belief systems were wrong and in the end they gave up their false beliefs and joined him.
What you are saying is western new age buddhism and not what the Buddha did and taught.
He criticized others and as a Buddhist, we ARE supposed to criticize and talk down about another teacher, a religion, a system.
That is what we are doing here on this thread about the NKT.
We are practicing "Right Speech" and not "Politicially Correct Speech"
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Could all this anger by the NKT be a possible act of "Revenge"?
Yes, that may simply be the case.
Geshe la has never declared to be a "Tulku".
After everything he has done to spread the Dharma, Dorje Shugden and his battles against the Dalai Lama there was no "Official Public" recognition for his efforts.
Could all this anger against H.H. Trijang Rinpoche and the other Dorje Shugden Tulkus and Lamas be caused because they "Refused" to make him a "Tulku"?
Yes that right "Refused".
"Hell has no fury" like a Geshe la refused his "Tulku" title.
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Well done everyone! I've seen every negative thought and delusion possible expressed on this topic.
Perhaps you could contemplate why a renunciate monk who has no interest in women, sex or children could possibly end up as a disrobed, married parent? Do you really think that's possible? What possible benefit could there be for sentient beings and what message does that send about ordination, which is vitally important in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, considering that both Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden both wear ordained robes?
Please think about how believing that a disrobed boy could possibly be a valid Tulku of Trijang Rinpoche and how this belief humiliates the great Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. Please also think how this example of being a disrobed lineageholder in Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition is a really bad example that will cause it to degenerate.
Please think!
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Well done everyone! I've seen every negative thought and delusion possible expressed on this topic.
Perhaps you could contemplate why a renunciate monk who has no interest in women, sex or children could possibly end up as a disrobed, married parent? Do you really think that's possible? What possible benefit could there be for sentient beings and what message does that send about ordination, which is vitally important in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, considering that both Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden both wear ordained robes?
Please think about how believing that a disrobed boy could possibly be a valid Tulku of Trijang Rinpoche and how this belief humiliates the great Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. Please also think how this example of being a disrobed lineageholder in Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition is a really bad example that will cause it to degenerate.
Please think!
Dear Lineageholder,
Should we similarly discard all works and teachings by His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama, the Mahasiddha Serkong Dorje Chang, His Holiness the 6th Dalai Lama and also the Mahasiddha Gantapha? Can we write them off since all these great Masters had consorts?
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The groups,WSS/SSC/ISC/ISBC, allegedly known as ‘Not The NKT’, recently informed the public it would organise protests over the recognition of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche as Tulku. Following requests from many quarters, the threat of protests has been withdrawn. It is not news that Geshe Kelsang does not agree with this recognition. The question I have, is why this matter has been raised by ‘Not The NKT,’ at this time?
‘The Real NKT’, tell us. ‘…we are different traditions; we are a Western tradition, within Western culture for Western practitioners, and they are a Tibetan tradition, within Tibetan culture, teaching largely in a monastic context.’
Also, ‘….While to some, the practices of recognizing Tulkus and using oracles for divination may seem interesting and exotic, they are well outside Western cultural norms.’
Although the lineage Gurus of the NKT from Je Tsongkhapa up to Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso are Tibetan Lamas, the NKT is not Tibetan Buddhism.
When the NKT became the International Kadampa Buddhist Union, which is legally registered under English law, it became a legally independent Buddhist tradition.
The main reason why NKT–IKBU has chosen to become legally registered as an independent Buddhist tradition is because it was recognized that in Tibetan Buddhism there are so many political problems. These problems are due to the mixing of Dharma and politics, with higher Lamas using the holy Dharma of Buddha’s teachings for political aims.
http://kadampa.org/buddhism/modern-kadampa-buddhism (http://kadampa.org/buddhism/modern-kadampa-buddhism)
‘It is also worth noting that Geshe Kelsang has not tried to interfere with how Shar Gaden or Serpom Norling are organized, even when his involvement was requested. He has never tried to interfere with any other Buddhist Center in the West either.’
“We don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.” (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 76)
Before the claim the NKT is not the ISBC is made, without the NKT the ISBC would not function.
President: Brianna Groshon….Kelsang Demo
Treasurer: Lisa Klusendorf…..Also Treasurer of the Kadampa Meditation Center New York
Secretary: Rachel Jeffrey……Kelsang Norden
Henry Shefveland …..Kelsang Jampa…. Signatory of the open letter dated 10th March 2017 from the International Shugden Buddhist Community.
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Well done everyone! I've seen every negative thought and delusion possible expressed on this topic.
Perhaps you could contemplate why a renunciate monk who has no interest in women, sex or children could possibly end up as a disrobed, married parent? Do you really think that's possible? What possible benefit could there be for sentient beings and what message does that send about ordination, which is vitally important in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, considering that both Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden both wear ordained robes?
Please think about how believing that a disrobed boy could possibly be a valid Tulku of Trijang Rinpoche and how this belief humiliates the great Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. Please also think how this example of being a disrobed lineageholder in Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition is a really bad example that will cause it to degenerate.
Please think!
Dear Lineageholder,
Should we similarly discard all works and teachings by His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama, the Mahasiddha Serkong Dorje Chang, His Holiness the 6th Dalai Lama and also the Mahasiddha Gantapha? Can we write them off since all these great Masters had consorts?
There are no 'consorts' in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, Je Rinpoche's example shows that.
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When you have BS talk and believe that their BS-ing is the TRUTH? What do you get?
The NKT Kelsangs!
Forget about real logic and answering all our logical questions and why they even USE the so-called person's students & followers they SUDDENLY decided to openly condemn and yet still wanna believe in Dorje Shugden even though DS is one of them who recognise the current one they condemn... and ALL their deluded excuses on why they are sane and right. It is amazing how much they think the world is dumb and what an insult to our intelligence. It is so funny how they can suddenly just turn around and back stab everyone especially the current HH. Trijang Rinpoche's students yet they still wanna preach dharma? Wow sounds like those fanatical Jehovah cultish group. Now I understand WHY people call them a cult! So sad they are proving those NKT-haters right.
Just see the kind of BS we have to tolerate online.... thanks, you guys really such an inspirational group of holy Dharma, oh not forgetting "pure" Buddhist. You really know how to represent your Guru & centre ------- looks to me they are the "troublemaker" here...
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2ro14ow.png)
He gives one cheek to be slapped and then shoot himself in the foot. Smart - not!
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Who would Geshe la formally bow to?
Is there any Tulku that he would bow to?
It would not be Trijang Rinpoche.
If he will not formally bow to Trijang Rinpoche then would he refuse to formally bow to all Tulkus?
Would he now refuse to bow to his former teachers that are Tulkus?
Maybe he fears that if he bows to them his students would think him some how less then these Tulkus?
In the NKT they bow only to Geshe la and no one else.
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Sorry Potter but your wrong. The sutras tells us that the Buddha would engage in debates with teachers from other beliefs. He would show them that their belief systems were wrong and in the end they gave up their false beliefs and joined him.
What you are saying is western new age buddhism and not what the Buddha did and taught.
He criticized others and as a Buddhist, we ARE supposed to criticize and talk down about another teacher, a religion, a system.
That is what we are doing here on this thread about the NKT.
We are practicing "Right Speech" and not "Politicially Correct Speech"
Yes the Buddha debated with teachers of other faith/ belief but the Buddha is enlightened, his motivation for debating is not to put them down but to convince them that what Buddha believes in does bear results. Again, Buddha DEBATED WITH FACTS, he DID NOT CRITICIZE NOR PUT DOWN peoples' faith, there's a huge difference between these two words. None of us should not be criticizing peoples' religions, it's morally incorrect; even if you want to, just keep it to yourself, don't force your view on others. What NKT are doing now is they are putting down peoples' faith and forcing people to follow them which is absolutely incorrect. Have you seen how the NKT talk and write? They have no idea what they are talking about, there's no proof or evidence to support their claims on the illegitimacy of the tulku and oracle systems. Of course they wouldn't dare to DEBATE because whatever they are claiming can be easily defeated ...
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Hi Potter
The highest Gelugpa tantra is the "Kalachakra".
I have received it twice.
It teaches of a great Kalachakra war in the year 2424.
In this war the Shambala Warriors SLAUGHTER all the Muslims on this planet called Earth..
How's that for criticizing someone else's religion!!!
How's that for putting down someone faith!!!!
8)
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Well done everyone! I've seen every negative thought and delusion possible expressed on this topic.
Perhaps you could contemplate why a renunciate monk who has no interest in women, sex or children could possibly end up as a disrobed, married parent? Do you really think that's possible? What possible benefit could there be for sentient beings and what message does that send about ordination, which is vitally important in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, considering that both Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden both wear ordained robes?
Please think about how believing that a disrobed boy could possibly be a valid Tulku of Trijang Rinpoche and how this belief humiliates the great Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. Please also think how this example of being a disrobed lineageholder in Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition is a really bad example that will cause it to degenerate.
Please think!
Dear Lineageholder,
Should we similarly discard all works and teachings by His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama, the Mahasiddha Serkong Dorje Chang, His Holiness the 6th Dalai Lama and also the Mahasiddha Gantapha? Can we write them off since all these great Masters had consorts?
There are no 'consorts' in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, Je Rinpoche's example shows that.
Okay, so finally the NKT shill has brought up the famous defence, they only accept things in Je Tsongkhapa's lineage. So let's go there. If you want to argue about what's in Je Tsongkhapa's lineage, then you need to define what "Je Tsongkhapa's lineage" is, because the definition seems to be very loose when it comes to the NKT / WSS / ISC / ISBC or whatever iteration you are going by these days.
Kalachakra, yab yum
Heruka, yab yum
Vajradhara, yab yum
Vajrasattva, yab yum
Are they not practices depicted with consorts within Je Tsongkhapa's tradition? And those are just the deities, never mind the list of lamas that vajratruth provided.
If you only consider something to be "within Je Tsongkhapa's lineage" as anything coming after Je Rinpoche's lifetime, then NKT should throw out their practice of Vajrayogini. That lineage comes from Naropa who lived before Je Tsongkhapa's time and therefore was not within his tradition. Furthermore, many of the people in the prayer of lineage gurus for Vajrayogini's practice aren't even Gelug or within Je Tsongkhapa's lineage. What is NKT going to do next, remove them from the list of lineage gurus too? And while you're at it, NKT should also throw out the practices of Vajrasattva, Heruka, Manjushri, etc. Throw out the Heart Sutra too, since all of those came from before Je Tsongkhapa's time.
I don't need to delve into the list of lamas since vajratruth has already brought up the topic, which lineageholder is now conveniently ignoring and refusing to properly address.
But the real issue, and my actual point, is how come NKT gets to decide for everyone and impose on them what "Je Tsongkhapa's lineage" is? How come NKT's word is the final word? How come NKT turns nasty when people don't instantly fall in line with what they want? Calling Gonsar Tulku a "troublemaker", is that really necessary?
NKT has a nasty habit of accepting things then throwing them out once they've served their purpose. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Examples? How about their exploitation of the Shugden Tibetans, including those loyal to Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche? Including them in the protests was done in order to make the protests look credible but once those protests were over, the Tibetans weren't given the time of day or any explanation as to why. On top of that, NKT then has the nerve to set up a new organisation to attack their teacher, Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche :-\
Or how about inviting the oracle to their centre, taking advice from him and asking him to compose prayers then throwing him out when oracles are suddenly invalidated? It's just a stunning amount of behaviour that lacks consideration for anyone else who isn't, let's face it, white. Disregard the opinions of the non-white people and dismiss them as backwards and illogical, that's what people like Sanglam spends all day telling others on Twitter.
Furthermore, NKT claims devotion to the gurus but those gurus were tulkus themselves, and they perpetuated the tulku system that NKT are now revolting against. NKT should remove all images of Zong Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche from their centres, and never write another devotional word about them again.
There are just so many inconsistencies to the NKT behaviour but sure, lets all trust the NKT shill just because he comes with a grandiose name.
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Well done everyone! I've seen every negative thought and delusion possible expressed on this topic.
Perhaps you could contemplate why a renunciate monk who has no interest in women, sex or children could possibly end up as a disrobed, married parent? Do you really think that's possible? What possible benefit could there be for sentient beings and what message does that send about ordination, which is vitally important in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, considering that both Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden both wear ordained robes?
Please think about how believing that a disrobed boy could possibly be a valid Tulku of Trijang Rinpoche and how this belief humiliates the great Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. Please also think how this example of being a disrobed lineageholder in Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition is a really bad example that will cause it to degenerate.
Please think!
Dear Lineageholder,
Should we similarly discard all works and teachings by His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama, the Mahasiddha Serkong Dorje Chang, His Holiness the 6th Dalai Lama and also the Mahasiddha Gantapha? Can we write them off since all these great Masters had consorts?
There are no 'consorts' in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, Je Rinpoche's example shows that.
Here you go lineageholder what does this say about Ghantapa, a major Heruka practitioner? Ignoring the exorbitant cost of the statue! "The monk who became a householder" and look, a consort. You should read up about Ghantapa considering he's one of the lineage lamas for Heruka's practice.
Do his actions with a consort invalidate his practice? I guess then NKT might as well get rid of the Heruka practice too since, according to NKT's version of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, consort practice is not accepted and the Heruka lineage is therefore invalidated thanks to Ghantapa.
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How about those naught actions by Padmasambhava and his consort or should I say consorts.
"NO ROBES NO TEACHINGS"!!!!
Have I got that right NKT?
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I must now presume that the NKT considers His Eminence Tsem Tulku to be in the same group of Tulkus that they want nothing to do with.
Tsem Tulku hated by the NKT?
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I must now presume that the NKT considers His Eminence Tsem Tulku to be in the same group of Tulkus that they want nothing to do with.
Tsem Tulku hated by the NKT?
Why do you always talk about Tsem Tulku? What is your vendetta. Stick to the subject matter.
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Erstvollzug
Don't get your point.
I was saying a good thing about Tsem Tulku.
By the way we were talking about NKT's treatment of Dorje Shugden Tulku's and how wrong they are so I am on topic.
Last I looked Tsem Tulku was and is a Dorje Shugden follower.
So how does my standing up for Tsem Tulku a Vendetta?
Please stick to the subject matter Heir Erstvollzug.
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Erstvollzug
Don't get your point.
I was saying a good thing about Tsem Tulku.
By the way we were talking about NKT's treatment of Dorje Shugden Tulku's and how wrong they are so I am on topic.
Last I looked Tsem Tulku was and is a Dorje Shugden follower.
So how does my standing up for Tsem Tulku a Vendetta?
Please stick to the subject matter Heir Erstvollzug.
You got my point perfectly. I read some of the rude and accusational comments you left on Tsem Tulku's blog posts (comments). I was directed to them by lineage-holder. You switch back and forth. Sometimes you say neutral things about Tsem Tulku and sometimes you berate him. You tell the whole world you are some Tengyeling oracle and then who believes you? No one. You recognize people as tulkus on your rantings on his blog comments and it's there for all to see, snag and save. You are just an old man who followed a very controversial 'teacher' whose passed now in your days. So just keep to yourself and don't interfere. I think you should just relax with your 'channelling' wife from your Restnook Lane house in Stouffville and do your prayers if you are still Buddhist and be at peace.
For your information, Tsem Tulku has done more for the Dorje Shugden lineage online than any other lama alive and you should thank him and support him. He has braved so much criticism, attacks, accusations, threats and simply criticisms from fruit cakes, stalkers and people online dying for attention and recognition in their lives. Yet Tsem Tulku never deters from his devotion to his lamas, his practice and Dorje Shugden. What have many other lamas done? Nothing. They stay quiet protecting their reputations. Dorje Shugden practice, knowledge, lineage and history is so well documented, shared and promoted on social media by Tsem Tulku and his students and many of us are grateful for this. My personal teachers praise Tsem Tulku very much and find it amazing he can do so much on line. His blog alone has over 9 million views when I last looked. My point, you should be appreciative of a lama like Tsem Tulku if you are a follower of Dorje Shugden. If you are against Dorje Shugden, then you continue doing what you do. If you are a neutral, then keep quiet. Tsem Tulku has done nothing to you. Tsem Tulku, his life, location and history and works are all online and open for the public. You? You hide behind a name and also you use to do a nasty website claiming to expose frauds/cults and you would attack people that has nothing to do with you. You are not anyone who can judge anyone and berate anyone. You are not the spiritual authority of anyone. Religious freedom is enshrined by the UN and in most civilized countries. So whether someone is doing something you like or not is not your business. Tsem Tulku only works hard for the Dorje Shugden cause and the majority of Dorje Shugden lamas support, admire and keep in good contacts with Tsem Tulku due to his hard works.
Your feuds online with other people and your hatred of Jews is well documented online and on the internet. Be at peace and do your meditations. Leave people alone and stop trying to get attention, bully, boss and cyber scare people because you have no rights to do this to anyone.
Om Benza Wiki Bitana Soha!
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So now I hate Jews Erstvollzug?
Strange for 20 years I was a Federal Agent working Customs and Immigration.
I arrested and deported for life 6 foreign Neo Nazi, Skin Heads.
They were David Irving, Tom Metzger, Sean Metzger, David Mahon, Sean Macquire and Sean Hammond.
I received National awards from various Jewish Organization for my work against Neo Nazi and Skin Heads.
I created federal legal case law by being the first person to use Canada's "Hate Speech" Laws.
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Can you prove that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind NKT's stupid, defamatory statements?
Well who else could it be?
Your far fetched assumption is anything except for the proof you were supposed to offer.
They are all so robotic,
Right, but being robotic means that they will believe any idiot claiming to represent the views of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, if they are not already the idiots claiming to represent such views.
they will dare do anything if only Geshe-la approves.
Or that they in their idiocy believe Geshe Kelsang Gyatso approves, if they are not already the ones making others believe in such approval.
It is well known, can ask any NKT/ex-NKT.people claiming to represent the views of their teachers
Everywhere one will find people claiming to represent the views of their teachers, and blind believers believing the former. There is no need to single out NKT in this respect. And there is no evidence that you yourself are not included in one, or both, of such categories, specially when you display your fanboy hatred against such a holy guru as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
And such a zainy idea can only come from Geshe-la.
Assuming that you are talking about the idea behind the statement, wherefrom comes your assumption?
Indeed, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is known for uttering only and strictly pure Buddhist teachings throughout his whole life as a teacher, without even the slightest trace of the hatred, spitefulness, envy, and harmfulness, as seen in both the Kelsangs' and your statements.
You think these kind of defamatory statements would come naturally and daringly from the Kelsangs?
Why not? Why should defamatory statements come from you but not from them? Do you believe that being a hateful fanboy of another guru guarantees that you are better than any of the crooked Kelsangs?
You think they would dare go against their own Guru's Guru IF Geshe-la did not agree and told them to do so and give them the green light?
Going against one's own guru is a phenomenon most seen in Buddhism. The evil dalie goes against Trijang Rinpoche, many Buddhists go against the Buddha's teachings, and so forth. Why shouldn't the crooked Kelsangs go against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso?
On the other hand, according to your own logic, you must have received the green light from some crooked guru of yours in order to defame a holy teacher such as Geshe Kelsag Gyatso, whereby you should at least follow the example of the crooked Kelsangs and identify your own crooked guru.
Think about it, who is the top?
Are you so silly to think that ideas always come from the top?
For instance, in the case of the evil dalie, the evil ideas definitely come from the top gangster, the evil dalie himself, because there is plenty of hard evidence showing that this is the case. However, except for your own sick assumptions, this is not at all the case with such a holy teacher as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
And again, according to your own crooked logic, one must assume that your own defamation against such a holy teacher as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso must come from the top, whereby now you owe the rest of us the identification of who is the mastermind behind your own vile behavior.
He is the greatest mastermind,
Why are you so concerned with the Kelsangs' mastermind, when you lack the guts to identify the mastermind behind your own defamation?
he was the one who asked them to start the protest against Dalai Lama and attempted to bring Dalai Lama to court.
And what is wrong with this? Why should a criminal not be protested against and brought to court?
What proof? Let's just say an old cat from the NKT block whispered to me and I am sure many others.
This one about protesting against and suing the evil dalie requires no proof, as it is a virtuous, skilful action. If Geshe Kelsang Gyatso did not publicly declare his authorship it was most likely because of modesty.
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Hello again Erstvollzug
You picked on me about a website I no longer have.
As I told you I spent 20 years as a Federal Agent with Customs and Immigration in Canada.
Another area I worked was CULTS.
I was deemed an "Expert Witness" on "Cults" by the Federal Court of Canada and the "Federal Court of Appeal".
I arrested and deported for life persons who were members of "Cults" trying to enter Canada.
Groups like the Tony and Susan Alamo Cult, the Children of God Cult and the Branch Davidans etc.
After I left the government I was asked by some ex cult members of Tibetan Buddhist Sects to investigate in all 3 Americans.
I was able to expose "Madi Nolan" aka Choden Ridzin Rinpoche as a FAKE.
I was able to expose Dhyani Ywahoo as a FAKE>
I was able to expose Tara Wangchuk aka Domo Geshe Rinpoche as a FAKE.
That right I exposed a woman pretending to be the incarnation of the Dorje Shugden Tulku, His Eminence Dome Geshe Rinpoche.
You should be thanking me for my help fighting for Dorje Shugden and Domo Geshe Rinpoche.
The ex members of these three cults have thanked me.
I am still working with the parents, spouses and brothers and sisters of members who are still trapped inside these cults and others.
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Hey Erstvollzug
More errors from you.
You say I followed a controversial Buddhist teacher.
Interesting since I have never had a Buddhist teacher.
You say if I am against Tsem Tulku I should be quiet.
How can I hate Tsem Tulku when I worked with him to bring the forgotten Dorje Shugden Dharmapala "Methar" back to the Dorje Shugden fold.
I mean really Erstvollzug, REALLY.
Why do you spread such LIES about me?
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Dear NKT students,
Why have you all in the past recited prayers for the long life of Geshe Kelsang composed by Dorje Shugden in trance of Oracle of Ganden?
You don't believe in oracles, so why do you print what was composed by the oracle in trance? Why do you print and have your centres recite this and now suddenly you are 'debunking' the oracle of Dorje Shugden who was trained by Trijang Rinpoche himself?
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Hey Harold
Thanks to you I went to the post on "Methar" and looked. Tsem put up scriptural sources for what he wrote. So you didn't help him. If you can read the Tibetan, go ahead and try.
"Methar" existed before you and will exist after you. He doesn't need your help. Have a nice day.
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to abortthetruth
Have a nice day to.
8) ;D ::)
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I must now presume that the NKT considers His Eminence Tsem Tulku to be in the same group of Tulkus that they want nothing to do with.
Tsem Tulku hated by the NKT?
@Harold what is your problem? Practice Dharma!
What are you gaining by making up stories after stories?
Do something useful with your life instead of writing fantasies!
Do us all a favour and practice Dharma!
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Pema8
:P :P ::) ::) ::)
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Hi Potter
The highest Gelugpa tantra is the "Kalachakra".
I have received it twice.
It teaches of a great Kalachakra war in the year 2424.
In this war the Shambala Warriors SLAUGHTER all the Muslims on this planet called Earth..
How's that for criticizing someone else's religion!!!
How's that for putting down someone faith!!!!
8)
In Yamantaka's tantra, there's a type of "violent" visualization that can be done to send a person to a pure land. A highly practised practitioner is to visualize Yamantaka's horns piercing through the other person and thus one will be reborn in a pure land. If you're gonna compare, this is slaughter too. What are you trying to prove? Do not demonize Buddha's teachings & practices to justify your statements.
Have you ever thought that your narrow mindedness, hatred and senselessness are the reasons why you're still here after taking Kalachakra, twice, and still stuck in your situation now, still spreading nonsense for attention? And don't get me wrong, it is exactly why you and I are stuck in samsara, we can take however many initiations we want, but if we don't practice lojong, the initiations will only be of little help. Again, please do not use these practices to justify your senseless statements, it will not only make you look bad, but will also create misunderstanding in peoples' minds. Obviously you(we) don't know enough to explain all these tantric stuff, the last thing you want to do is to destroy the reputation of these great teachings.
All the best to you.
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Are you talking to me Gabby or are you just holding up a mirror looking at yourself???
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Are you talking to me Gabby or are you just holding up a mirror looking at yourself???
It must be hard and makes a person very unhappy and cruel when they are dishonorably discharged from their job. Once 'mighty' high and flying and then nothing must make someone totally unwell. Taking bribes and accepting corruption to hurt others is really not a good way to live our lives. Too bad.
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Good point guys. Who is Harold Musetescu? Who is he to ask questions about Tsem Rinpoche. He is not my lama. Personally, I respect Tsem Rinpoche for all that he has done for the movement. I am not in the least concerned about his recognition or the meaning of his name. What matters to me is what he stands for and that is for freedom of practice for Dorje Shugden practitioners.
He talks and talks a lot on his blog about that. I have learnt so much from his wealth of knowledge, which he shares willingly and openly all the time. What makes my blood boil is this Musetescu. How dare he come here to incite hatred against a Dorje Shugden stalwart. As an admin, I warn you to behave, this is a forum for all concerning Dorje Shugden. We do not tolerate lama-bashing.
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A few months later I found out what date were on its Canadian equivalents: using the Canadian Access to Information Act, I discovered that a Canadian immigration official, Harold Musetescu, -- later dismissed -- had been bribed by officials of the Canadian Jewish Congress (or alternatively by the Toronto arm of the Simon Wiesenthal Center business-empire) to deposit phoney data about me on the Canadian Immigration intelligence files, in a conspiracy to prevent me from making further visits to Canada. I obtained actual print-outs of the data, showing when Musetescu planted the data, and what they were.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5847.msg64266#msg64266 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5847.msg64266#msg64266)
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Well done everyone! I've seen every negative thought and delusion possible expressed on this topic.
Perhaps you could contemplate why a renunciate monk who has no interest in women, sex or children could possibly end up as a disrobed, married parent? Do you really think that's possible? What possible benefit could there be for sentient beings and what message does that send about ordination, which is vitally important in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, considering that both Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden both wear ordained robes?
Please think about how believing that a disrobed boy could possibly be a valid Tulku of Trijang Rinpoche and how this belief humiliates the great Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. Please also think how this example of being a disrobed lineageholder in Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition is a really bad example that will cause it to degenerate.
Please think!
Dear Lineageholder,
Should we similarly discard all works and teachings by His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama, the Mahasiddha Serkong Dorje Chang, His Holiness the 6th Dalai Lama and also the Mahasiddha Gantapha? Can we write them off since all these great Masters had consorts?
There are no 'consorts' in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, Je Rinpoche's example shows that.
Consort practice is written up in Je Tsongkhapa's huge pantheon as a pure yoga for advanced/realised practitioners to attain great bliss. It is clearly expressed in crisp English within "Clear Light of Bliss", Tharpa Publications (1992), a wisdom book that is the fruit of unbroken transmissions since before the time of Je Tsongkhapa. The lineage gurus are illustrated in this publication back to Manjusri and Buddha Vajradhara.
Buddha Manjusri too has a consort the Buddha Saraswati, revered for art, culture and music, and so may the light of Dharma spread and may the love of learning, truth and knowledge sweep aside our ignorances of culture, prejudice, hearsay, assumptions, etc. On the subject of Mahamudra, impure minds will not be able to perceive the purest truth it is said. Relative to what is being discussed on this thread and others, well we can figure it out.
I pay homage to the Guru, the Yidam and the Dakini, without refuge what would we be?
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Consort practice is written up in Je Tsongkhapa's huge pantheon as a pure yoga for advanced/realised practitioners to attain great bliss. It is clearly expressed in crisp English within "Clear Light of Bliss", Tharpa Publications (1992), a wisdom book that is the fruit of unbroken transmissions since before the time of Je Tsongkhapa. The lineage gurus are illustrated in this publication back to Manjusri and Buddha Vajradhara.
Buddha Manjusri too has a consort the Buddha Saraswati, revered for art, culture and music, and so may the light of Dharma spread and may the love of learning, truth and knowledge sweep aside our ignorances of culture, prejudice, hearsay, assumptions, etc. On the subject of Mahamudra, impure minds will not be able to perceive the purest truth it is said. Relative to what is being discussed on this thread and others, well we can figure it out.
I pay homage to the Guru, the Yidam and the Dakini, without refuge what would we be?
It is true that in the common tradition of Mahamudra, reliance on an Action Mudra or consort is taught for those who wish to attain enlightenment before death. However, Je Tsongkhapa showed a different example. He and his students did not engage in consort meditation even though they were qualified to do so. Why? for two reasons:
- Because it would be inappropriate for a monk to show the example of engaging in sexual activity as this is what ordinary beings would see. It would cause the pure practice of ordination to degenerate as it was possible that unqualified monks would engage in consort practice out of attachment.
- Consort practice is not necessary in the uncommon Ganden oral lineage instructions on Mahamudra because the channel knots can be loosened by blessings and meditation alone.
Ordination is central and vital in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition which is why 'Tulku' Trijang is fake. He's not the continuation of Trijang Rinpoche as this great master would never show the example of disrobing, would never marry and would never have children which is the opposite of renunciation. You think this pure monk would show the example of enjoying samsara? You humiliate him because by accepting that he would do these things is tantamount to saying he had no experience of renunciation which is nonsense.
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"Ordination is central and vital in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition which is why 'Tulku' Trijang is fake.." He's not the continuation of Trijang Rinpoche as this great master would never show the example of disrobing, ..."
This is a joke! You are saying that the 10th Panchen Lama, Kyabje Serkong Dorje Chang etc. were all fake tulku?
While no one disagree that the Gelukpa teachings were mainly transmitted via ordained monks, it don't imply that disrobed tulkus could not give teachings and be respected by the community....
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Oh. I forgot to mention Gelek Rinpoche, who has given a lot good Gelukpa teachings in English after his disrobe, under request from Ling Rinpoche in mid 70s.
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Ordination is central and vital in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition which is why 'Tulku' Trijang is fake.
Wrong. Trijang Choktrul is “fake” because NKT is afraid of disintegrating after Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's passing away.
NKT needs to assert its relevance in the absence of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, which it does trying to disparage its perceived competition, that is, other Shugden lamas.
Therefore, Trijang Choktrul is “fake”, Gonsar Rinpoche is a “troublemaker”, tulkus in general are fake, whatever, as long as NKT can distract people from their lack of a worthy successor to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
After Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's passes away, his students will massively flock to other Shugden lamas, and this is precisely what corporate NKT fears and desperately wishes to prevent.
NKT's anxiety to disparage such other Shugden lamas is just a measure of its corporate despair.
He's not the continuation of Trijang Rinpoche as this great master would never show the example of disrobing, would never marry and would never have children .
Maybe the previous Trijang Rinpoche simply forgot to ask your idiotic authorization.
The layman Vimalakirti was equal to the Buddha, and superior to any other monks and bodhisattvas, but according to your imbecile logic he would be a “fake” too.
Indeed, Vimalakirti was married, had children and even run a business. But, as opposed to NKT monk-bureaucrats, he was not into preaching puritanism as a means of ensuring corporate survival.
The funny thing here is that those who most boast about “renunciation” are those most motivated by mundane goals, such as ensuring their own corporate survival.
And since their motivation is so vile, it's no wonder that they resort to disparaging teachers they see as competitors, such as other Shugden lamas, and tulkus in general.
which is the opposite of renunciation
You are not interested in “renunciation”, you are interested in NKT's mundane, corporate survival.
Behind every obsessive moralistic preaching one will find a greedy priest, monk, or pseudo-renunciate.
You think this pure monk would show the example of enjoying samsara?
Why not? Let alone Vimalakirti, even the Buddha enjoyed samsara, if you ever heard about his life and deeds.
Meanwhile, NKT's impure, depraved, greedy, pseudo-monk bureaucrats, obsessed only with their own corporate survival, afraid of their own corporate disintegration, while attached to samsara cannot even enjoy it.
You humiliate him because by accepting that he would do these things is tantamount to saying he had no experience of renunciation which is nonsense.
Renunciation is a quality of mind, not an external, social status, or type of cloth.
Therefore, your ridiculous, infantile attempt to equate renunciation with being a “monk” shows your thorough lack of understanding of even the most basic Buddhist teachings.
--
As to the propagandistic usage of the term “humiliate”, repeating NKT's official propaganda, it is intended to create the idea that NKT is the “guardian” or “defender” of Trijang Rinpoche's inheritance, supposedly spoiled by non-NKT “illegitimate” lamas.
This usage again betrays NKT's desperate need to assert its relevance in a world without Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, or, in other words, the fear of its impending disintegration.
Feeling angry and impotent about its own bleak future, NKT resorts to gratuitous aggression and defamation.
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And something else to consider here is that NKT gave up criticizing the evil dalie, the cruel tyrant oppressing followers of NKT's own alleged protector Dorje Shugden, while simultaneously resorting to gratuitously slandering Shugden lamas such as Trijang Choktrul and Gonsar Rinpoches.
The conclusion is that NKT, as opposed to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, gave up Dorje Shugden, and now relies only on corporate money and power. And let's not exclude possible commercial and political agreements, since NKT's U-turn came immediately after Reuters fake news connecting Dorje Shugden and China.
To sum-up, behind NKT's pseudo-moralistic, puritanistic preaching one will likely find a lot of money and corruption.
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To sum-up, behind NKT's pseudo-moralistic, puritanistic preaching one will likely find a lot of money and corruption.
If not CIA's ad George Soros' dirty fingers.
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When you have BS talk and believe that their BS-ing is the TRUTH? What do you get?
The NKT Kelsangs!
Forget about real logic and answering all our logical questions and why they even USE the so-called person's students & followers they SUDDENLY decided to openly condemn and yet still wanna believe in Dorje Shugden even though DS is one of them who recognise the current one they condemn... and ALL their deluded excuses on why they are sane and right. It is amazing how much they think the world is dumb and what an insult to our intelligence. It is so funny how they can suddenly just turn around and back stab everyone especially the current HH. Trijang Rinpoche's students yet they still wanna preach dharma? Wow sounds like those fanatical Jehovah cultish group. Now I understand WHY people call them a cult! So sad they are proving those NKT-haters right.
Just see the kind of BS we have to tolerate online.... thanks, you guys really such an inspirational group of holy Dharma, oh not forgetting "pure" Buddhist. You really know how to represent your Guru & centre ------- looks to me they are the "troublemaker" here...
([url]http://i67.tinypic.com/2ro14ow.png[/url])
He gives one cheek to be slapped and then shoot himself in the foot. Smart - not!
Absolutely nonsense. How can it be that the 'current' tulku system is wrong and not the other? The current tulku system was passed down by lineage tulkus that was authorized by them. So if you reject the current system, by default you reject everything that was passed down from highly attained tulkus like H.H Trijang Rinpoche, H.H Zong Rinpoche, Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche and many more. People from NKT really do not debate with logic, in fact they come up with replies that make them look even more ignorant. They can believe or reject whatever systems they want, the bottom line is do not stop people from believing. Everyone has their right to follow whichever teacher they want to, therefore it is not up to us to destroy the bond/ relationship.
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Consort practice is written up in Je Tsongkhapa's huge pantheon as a pure yoga for advanced/realised practitioners to attain great bliss. It is clearly expressed in crisp English within "Clear Light of Bliss", Tharpa Publications (1992), a wisdom book that is the fruit of unbroken transmissions since before the time of Je Tsongkhapa. The lineage gurus are illustrated in this publication back to Manjusri and Buddha Vajradhara.
Buddha Manjusri too has a consort the Buddha Saraswati, revered for art, culture and music, and so may the light of Dharma spread and may the love of learning, truth and knowledge sweep aside our ignorances of culture, prejudice, hearsay, assumptions, etc. On the subject of Mahamudra, impure minds will not be able to perceive the purest truth it is said. Relative to what is being discussed on this thread and others, well we can figure it out.
I pay homage to the Guru, the Yidam and the Dakini, without refuge what would we be?
It is true that in the common tradition of Mahamudra, reliance on an Action Mudra or consort is taught for those who wish to attain enlightenment before death. However, Je Tsongkhapa showed a different example. He and his students did not engage in consort meditation even though they were qualified to do so. Why? for two reasons:
- Because it would be inappropriate for a monk to show the example of engaging in sexual activity as this is what ordinary beings would see. It would cause the pure practice of ordination to degenerate as it was possible that unqualified monks would engage in consort practice out of attachment.
- Consort practice is not necessary in the uncommon Ganden oral lineage instructions on Mahamudra because the channel knots can be loosened by blessings and meditation alone.
Ordination is central and vital in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition which is why 'Tulku' Trijang is fake. He's not the continuation of Trijang Rinpoche as this great master would never show the example of disrobing, would never marry and would never have children which is the opposite of renunciation. You think this pure monk would show the example of enjoying samsara? You humiliate him because by accepting that he would do these things is tantamount to saying he had no experience of renunciation which is nonsense.
There is no reference anywhere to a "common tradition of Mahamudra". What is this view? Mahamudra is not common, is not ordinary and is taught but not governed by the crown ornament of the scholars of the land of the snows. Mahamudra is something in this above view, but the truth is not a fixed view.
Living buddhas, high lamas, tulkus, oracles, rinpoches, geshes, dakinis, yidams, dharmapalas, etc manifest in many forms. Have we the pure mind to recognise them all? Do we cling on to attachment to these above views? Why are these views important to us?
I dare not say anything more. I invite everyone to use the clearest mind possible.
By the lineage of Je Tsongkhapa and the pantheon of all the holy beings and Dorje Shugden, I lack the imagination to believe these above sets of views correctly represent the view of a fully qualified, healthy geshe. I do hope that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is living and in good health of body and mind - these views do not fit a Kadampa of any description.
Mundane questions arise: Is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso well and healthy? Has anyone actually proof of him making statements to support this view?
It is striking that if we compare the style/tone/intent of the general communications of other lamas' offices - on all kinds of other subjects, we see that there are very clear distinct features missing from the recent hotly debated public communications coming from NKT/associated bodies. It would be good to clarify this question in the first place. I hope someone can come forward to dispel all/any doubts.
I am very confused and don't know the answers, but more questions arise - would anyone like to answer the background flip side: who is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso?
Where was he born in Tibet? When did he join a monastery, which one? Who was his ordination master? What is his life story before going to the west? When did he do his Geshe exams? Was he part of FPMT? Why did he go to the UK? Why did he start NKT before the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden practice? Why are there no other Tibetan lamas in NKT?
These are just straight level questions. Not accusations. More knowledge is needed to really understand better. I hope someone out there can shed light on this as accurately as possible. It is a responsibility.
Respectfully to the NKT leaders, the magnitude of the statements that the organisation is making recently lends the NKT open to question in general. Actions occur because of thought, what motivates thought? Is it anger/envy/fear? Why? Your root guru is your root guru, just as my guru is my guru and no other can change that no matter what the root guru does or does not do.
No judgements, it is just good to see what is going on and why all this fuss. It is very puzzling and utterly unnecessary, so we need more direct answers, knowledge and wisdom to develop better acceptance.
May the great teachers have a very long life and may my ignorance somehow bring benefit to everyone. Lots of love to all.
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There is no reference anywhere to a "common tradition of Mahamudra". What is this view? Mahamudra is not common, is not ordinary and is taught but not governed by the crown ornament of the scholars of the land of the snows. Mahamudra is something in this above view, but the truth is not a fixed view.
There is a common lineage of Mahamudra that is shared between the Kagyu and Gelugpa traditions and was practised by Milarepa and his disciples which comes from the Six Yogas of Naropa. The principal object of meditation of this method is the tummo or inner fire at the navel channel wheel.
The uncommon lineage of Mahamudra is very rare and very few know about it. It comes from the Ganden Oral Lineage, from the Ganden Emanation Scripture which was passed directly from Buddha Manjushri to Je Tsongkhapa. The first Panchen Lama extracted these instructions and wrote them down in ordinary language in his text, The Main Path of the Conquerors. The principal object of meditation of this method is the indestructible drop at the centre of the heart channel wheel.
According to Trijang Rinpoche's assistant, Palden-la, the principal holder of these instructions in this modern age is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche. A detailed explanation of the instructions can be found in his book The Oral Instructions of Mahamudra published by Tharpa Publications.
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There is no reference anywhere to a "common tradition of Mahamudra". What is this view? Mahamudra is not common, is not ordinary and is taught but not governed by the crown ornament of the scholars of the land of the snows. Mahamudra is something in this above view, but the truth is not a fixed view.
There is a common lineage of Mahamudra that is shared between the Kagyu and Gelugpa traditions and was practised by Milarepa and his disciples which comes from the Six Yogas of Naropa. The principal object of meditation of this method is the tummo or inner fire at the navel channel wheel.
The uncommon lineage of Mahamudra is very rare and very few know about it. It comes from the Ganden Oral Lineage, from the Ganden Emanation Scripture which was passed directly from Buddha Manjushri to Je Tsongkhapa. The first Panchen Lama extracted these instructions and wrote them down in ordinary language in his text, The Main Path of the Conquerors. The principal object of meditation of this method is the indestructible drop at the centre of the heart channel wheel.
According to Trijang Rinpoche's assistant, Palden-la, the principal holder of these instructions in this modern age is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche. A detailed explanation of the instructions can be found in his book The Oral Instructions of Mahamudra published by Tharpa Publications.
Rejoice that the Ganden Oral Lineage has spread in the 10 directions! Mahamudra is not common or uncommon. The instructions on the indestructible drop are in Part 2 of The Oral Instructions of Mahamudra. The book extends into Part 4 with great detail. I am blessed to have a copy of the 2nd English edition - it was only first published 2015 - it is not clear when it was written.
In Part 3: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso writes on the self-generation as Heruka with consort in Part 3 (p97)- the section is presented as "An Instruction of the Ganden Oral Lineage". Gelugpa lineage lamas are named in the Mahamudra lineage prayers on p249. The practice is in the lineage and the high Gelug lamas are transmitting the instructions, including other subtle practices too. May Geshe Kelsang Gyatso manifest strong and well to give his oral transmission.
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso refers to Mahasiddha Ghantapa: p100, p127, p146. Who is Mahasiddha Ghantapa? <3 We can benefit GREATLY from reading about the exalted life of Ghantapa in these very confused times.
In Part 4: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso writes about consort practice, especially p138-147. Let there be no doubt, this is expressed very clearly.
If Geshe Kelsang Gyatso authored this book, then we can be clear that his message is of peace and ultimate truth.
May the NKT managers not be obstructed by ordinary appearance. If you see something you do not like, examine closely what you do not like, where is that adversion coming from? May there be massive inspiration and energy arising from restoring samaya. There is great love and compassion out there.
May everyone be so blessed <3 overflowing with love for everyone!
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You state in your reply that Mahamudra is not common or uncommon but this is incorrect. In Tantric Grounds and Paths, Geshe Kelsang says:
In Clear Light of Bliss, I explain how to bring the inner winds into the central channel through the sixth of the ten doors, the centre of the navel channel wheel. We do this by visualizing our inner heat inside our navel channel in the aspect of a short-AH and meditating on this. This is a common practice that accords with the tradition of the Six Yogas of Naropa. It was originally explained in Hevajra Root Tantra by Buddha Vajradhara, and since then has been used by many Kagyu? practitioners such as Milarepa and his disciples, and later by practitioners in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition. However, within our tradition we have the uncommon Vajrayana Mahamudra practice of the oral lineage of the unequalled Virtuous Tradition. This is a very special practice of Vajrayana Mahamudra that Je Tsongkhapa received directly from Manjushri, who had received it directly from Buddha Vajradhara.
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso refers to Mahasiddha Ghantapa: p100, p127, p146. Who is Mahasiddha Ghantapa? <3 We can benefit GREATLY from reading about the exalted life of Ghantapa in these very confused times.
I don't understand what point you're making here. All ordained people need to get consorts? The example of Mahasiddha Ghantapa taking a consort is not for the Gelugpa tradition any more than the example of Chogyam Trungpa or false Trijang Choktrul is. We can be inspired by his pure practice but, as I explain below, the uncommon practice of Mahamudra makes consort practice unnecessary.
In Part 4: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso writes about consort practice, especially p138-147. Let there be no doubt, this is expressed very clearly.
Yes he does because he's presenting Heruka instructions in the context of the common Mahamudra lineage. You will note that he says on page 146:
In some texts, and as mentioned above, it says that to attain the ultimate example clear light we finally need to rely upon the action mudra or wait until our death. This is in general. In particular, practitioners such as Gyalwa Ensapa and many of his disciples attained ultimate example clear light and meaning clear light and became Buddhas by attaining the Union of No More Learning through the power of the blessings of the Ganden Oral Lineage instructions without relying upon an action mudra.
May the NKT managers not be obstructed by ordinary appearance. If you see something you do not like, examine closely what you do not like, where is that adversion coming from? May there be massive inspiration and energy arising from restoring samaya. There is great love and compassion out there.
I would like to say the same to you - if you see a strange example, such as a Lineage Holder disrobing, getting married and having a child in contradiction with the life and values of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche whilst claiming to be the Tulku of this great Lama, and at the same time being followed by Shugden monasteries in contradiction with Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, you should question whether this is correct behaviour or not instead of thinking "well, he's Trijang Rinpoche so he can do anything he likes". Using Dharma to justify such unwise behaviour would be abusing Dharma so I hope that your reference to Mahasiddha Ghantapa is not intended for this purpose. Please do not close your eyes to this - the purpose of Tantra is not to excuse wrong moral behaviour. Abandoning ordinary appearance doesn't mean 'anything goes'.
I've said everything I need to say on this topic so likely I will not reply to further posts. May all beings swiftly attain enlightenment and may Je Tsongkhapa's pure tradition flourish forevermore.
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if you see a strange example, such as a Lineage Holder disrobing, getting married and having a child
So what. The great bodhisattva Vimalakirti was married, had children, and even run a business, but still was above Manjushri and other bodisattvas, and equal only to the Buddha.
The Buddha himself used to be married, and even had a child, Rahula, a deed which is included in his twelve deeds, known as “delighting in the company of the royal consorts”.
Let alone many other mahasiddhas, even Virupa, the previous incarnation of Dorje Shugden, was evicted from the Nalanda monastery after being caught partying with attractive girls is his cell.
Therefore, there could be hardly a more stupid statement than the one above, suggesting that a lineage holder could not disrobe, get married, or have children.
in contradiction with the life and values of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche
If so, the previous Trijang Rinpoche would be in contradiction with the life and values of his own previous incarnation, Ra Lotsawa Dorje Drak, who was married and had children.
You ridiculous assumption here is that a lama's current incarnation has to be the exact clone of their previous incarnation, but you did not tell the rest of us from which book you took such a stupidity.
whilst claiming to be the Tulku of this great Lama,
Which is nothing compared to your own preposterous claim to know how a great lama should reincarnate.
and at the same time being followed by Shugden monasteries in contradiction with Je Tsongkhapa's tradition,
If so, you should be able to point to the exact passage in Je Tsongkhapa's eighteen volumes where he says that only monastics can hold his tradition.
But maybe you are just confounding NKT's corporate handbooks and policies with the pure scriptures and teachings emanating from Je Tsongkhapa.
Besides, according to your adopted NKT's corporate policies, Shugden monasteries could not follow the Buddha, let alone Saraha, Ghantapa, Luipa, Darikapa, Ra Lotsawa, and so forth.
you should question whether this is correct behaviour or not
What then precisely is “incorrect” according to you?
To marry and have children as Buddha Shakyamuni, Vimalakirti, and Ra Lotsawa-Trijang Rinpoche did? Or to disrobe as Virupa-Dorje Shugden, Saraha and Ghantapa did?
You might remember that Ghantapa, the very source of the lineage of many of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's most profound teachings, is ironically known as “the monk who became a householder”.
As you can see, NKT, with its obsessive puritanism, and its politically-motivated, corporate-driven approach, has broken Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's lineage, and is now just a corpse, a corporate corpse.
instead of thinking "well, he's Trijang Rinpoche so he can do anything he likes".
So wrong. One should think “well, he's Trijang Rinpoche so he can only do what some greedy NKT eunuch-bureaucrat transvestite as monk allows him to do”, is it?
Using Dharma to justify such unwise behaviour would be abusing Dharma so I hope that your reference to Mahasiddha Ghantapa is not intended for this purpose.
What about abusing Dharma to ensure the survival of a caste of greedy pseudo-monks afraid of seeing the demise of their corporate NKT after Geshe Kelsang Gyatso passes away?
Otherwise, what precisely is “unwise” with Ghantapa's behavior according to you puritanistic NKT handbook? Or with Buddha's, Vimalakirti's, Virupa's, Saraha's, or Ra
Please do not close your eyes to this - the purpose of Tantra is not to excuse wrong moral behaviour. Abandoning ordinary appearance doesn't mean 'anything goes'.
I've said everything I need to say on this topic so likely I will not reply to further posts. May all beings swiftly attain enlightenment and may Je Tsongkhapa's pure tradition flourish forevermore.
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Using Dharma to justify such unwise behaviour would be abusing Dharma so I hope that your reference to Mahasiddha Ghantapa is not intended for this purpose.
What about abusing Dharma to ensure the survival of a caste of greedy pseudo-monks afraid of seeing the demise of their corporate NKT after Geshe Kelsang Gyatso passes away?
Otherwise, what precisely is “unwise” with Ghantapa's behavior according to you puritanistic NKT handbook? Or with Buddha's, Vimalakirti's, Virupa's, Saraha's, or Ra Lotsawa's behavior to that effect?
Please do not close your eyes to this - the purpose of Tantra is not to excuse wrong moral behaviour.
Then according to your newly invented, eunuch-corporate pseudo-Dharma, getting married and having children is “wrong moral behavior”, right? Could you please quote the precise book and page where your stated teacher, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, says such an idiocy?
Abandoning ordinary appearance doesn't mean 'anything goes'.
Let alone abandoning “ordinary appearance”, you would profit from abandoning pseudo-Dharma tenets asserted by some greedy corporate eunuch anxious to ensure the survival of their doomed corporation.
I've said everything I need to say on this topic
Did you say anything?
so likely I will not reply to further posts.
Wrong. You will keep compulsively blabbering your hate propaganda until some NKT eunuch-bureaucrat tells you to stop because your stupid arguments bring more harm than help to their sordid enterprise.
May all beings swiftly attain enlightenment and may Je Tsongkhapa's pure tradition flourish forevermore.
You are lying. Just what you want is to ensure NKT's corporate survival.
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Matibadhra,
Your debate, examples and reasonings are excellent.
I enjoy reading what you post. Excellent logic!
if you see a strange example, such as a Lineage Holder disrobing, getting married and having a child
So what. The great bodhisattva Vimalakirti was married, had children, and even run a business, but still was above Manjushri and other bodisattvas, and equal only to the Buddha.
The Buddha himself used to be married, and even had a child, Rahula, a deed which is included in his twelve deeds, known as “delighting in the company of the royal consorts”.
Let alone many other mahasiddhas, even Virupa, the previous incarnation of Dorje Shugden, was evicted from the Nalanda monastery after being caught partying with attractive girls is his cell.
Therefore, there could be hardly a more stupid statement than the one above, suggesting that a lineage holder could not disrobe, get married, or have children.
in contradiction with the life and values of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche
If so, the previous Trijang Rinpoche would be in contradiction with the life and values of his own previous incarnation, Ra Lotsawa Dorje Drak, who was married and had children.
You ridiculous assumption here is that a lama's current incarnation has to be the exact clone of their previous incarnation, but you did not tell the rest of us from which book you took such a stupidity.
whilst claiming to be the Tulku of this great Lama,
Which is nothing compared to your own preposterous claim to know how a great lama should reincarnate.
and at the same time being followed by Shugden monasteries in contradiction with Je Tsongkhapa's tradition,
If so, you should be able to point to the exact passage in Je Tsongkhapa's eighteen volumes where he says that only monastics can hold his tradition.
But maybe you are just confounding NKT's corporate handbooks and policies with the pure scriptures and teachings emanating from Je Tsongkhapa.
Besides, according to your adopted NKT's corporate policies, Shugden monasteries could not follow the Buddha, let alone Saraha, Ghantapa, Luipa, Darikapa, Ra Lotsawa, and so forth.
you should question whether this is correct behaviour or not
What then precisely is “incorrect” according to you?
To marry and have children as Buddha Shakyamuni, Vimalakirti, and Ra Lotsawa-Trijang Rinpoche did? Or to disrobe as Virupa-Dorje Shugden, Saraha and Ghantapa did?
You might remember that Ghantapa, the very source of the lineage of many of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's most profound teachings, is ironically known as “the monk who became a householder”.
As you can see, NKT, with its obsessive puritanism, and its politically-motivated, corporate-driven approach, has broken Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's lineage, and is now just a corpse, a corporate corpse.
instead of thinking "well, he's Trijang Rinpoche so he can do anything he likes".
So wrong. One should think “well, he's Trijang Rinpoche so he can only do what some greedy NKT eunuch-bureaucrat transvestite as monk allows him to do”, is it?
Using Dharma to justify such unwise behaviour would be abusing Dharma so I hope that your reference to Mahasiddha Ghantapa is not intended for this purpose.
What about abusing Dharma to ensure the survival of a caste of greedy pseudo-monks afraid of seeing the demise of their corporate NKT after Geshe Kelsang Gyatso passes away?
Otherwise, what precisely is “unwise” with Ghantapa's behavior according to you puritanistic NKT handbook? Or with Buddha's, Vimalakirti's, Virupa's, Saraha's, or Ra
Please do not close your eyes to this - the purpose of Tantra is not to excuse wrong moral behaviour. Abandoning ordinary appearance doesn't mean 'anything goes'.
I've said everything I need to say on this topic so likely I will not reply to further posts. May all beings swiftly attain enlightenment and may Je Tsongkhapa's pure tradition flourish forevermore.