Author Topic: Dorje Shugden oracle composes long life prayer for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso  (Read 37044 times)

swainsonjohn

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The claim made by ISBC is made that their intention is...

'To protect Je Tsongkhapas doctrine……'

It is also said about the tulku recognition, Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche that.....

'This is a great humiliation for Trijang Rinpoche ....and for the International Shugden Buddhist Community….'

Given these fundamental claims, has the ISBC made a 'political' decision or changed it's view?



Gabby Potter

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If the NKT does not believe in the tulku system that's just fine with me.

Of course this means that they do not believe in Dorje Shugden or "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen.

So NKT do you believe in "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen and his "TULKU" lineage or will you now deny him and Dorje Shugden?

You can't have it both ways.

Very good question Harold, they certainly won't be able to answer this question without sounding ignorant and ironic. Since they do not believe in the tulku system, every single teaching that was passed down by great tulkus from the past must be eliminated from their teachings/ books/ websites. They can't preach people something they themselves do not even have faith in, then what's the point of teaching then? They should just come up with their own set of teachings and practices since they know better than H.H Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, H.H Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche...

ShugdenProtector

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If the NKT does not believe in the tulku system that's just fine with me.

Of course this means that they do not believe in Dorje Shugden or "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen.

So NKT do you believe in "TULKU" Drakpa Gyeltsen and his "TULKU" lineage or will you now deny him and Dorje Shugden?

You can't have it both ways.

 Very good question Harold, they certainly won't be able to answer this question without sounding ignorant and ironic. Since they do not believe in the tulku system, every single teaching that was passed down by great tulkus from the past must be eliminated from their teachings/ books/ websites. They can't preach people something they themselves do not even have faith in, then what's the point of teaching then? They should just come up with their own set of teachings and practices since they know better than H.H Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, H.H Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche...

And since they do not want to recognise such a system then might as well STOP practising Buddhism altogether because these lineage Lamas teachings all leads back to the main source which is Lord Buddha! What on earth are they going on about? It is one thing to be ignorant, it is another to be ignorant and stubborn and self-righteous. It is no wonder why people call them a "cult" and they are so hated by so many and no they make themselves hated not only by those anti-Shugden groups but now even those who are Shugden, they are pushing an alienating. Soon they will have no one to turn to in times of trouble!

swainsonjohn

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I  leave the discussion about Tulkus to those more qualified. If the NKT wishes to remove that system from the organisation that is fine. I believe the statement about organising protests, now withdrawn, was another example of the way it responds when a perceived threat arises. This organisation is known for resorting to threats of legal action. It is a method which generally works as individuals can rarely afford going to court. One notable exception was that of Highden Manor in New Zealand. The NKT claimed their reputation was damaged and wanted £2 million damages. The court found against them and awarded damages the other way. The NKT never turned up to defend the case. As far as the Tulku situation is concerned, they appear to have believed they could influence the rest of the Buddhist community. When it became clear that they were on their own, they backed off. Self imposed humiliation?

Please insert the word 'not' in front of any reference to the NKT as we all know the NKT is not the WSS/SSC/ISC/ISBC.

Gabby Potter

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NKT is not helping in spreading Dharma at all. People are already criticising why are there controversies surrounding Gelug lineage, for example how can NKT call His Holiness fake, how can they call him a liar; and now NKT is calling Trijang Rinpoche fake too! It is as if there's not enough troubles for Dorje Shugden practitioners. Is NKT trying to imply all Lamas are fake except for their own guru? Even older NKT Sangha cannot tolerate what NKT is doing now, criticising Trijang Rinpoche.

You're right KungPo, NKT is not even close to spreading Dharma at all. If they don't practice Dharma themselves, who are they going to preach the Buddha's teachings to? As a Buddhist, we are not supposed to criticize and talk down about another teacher, a religion, a system. That is definitely not what the Buddha has taught, contrary, the Buddha has always talked about practicing acceptance, understanding and tolerance. What is the NKT trying to do now? They claimed that their objective is to protect Lama Tsongkhapa's doctrine, now I wonder how are they going to 'protect' Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings by being so rude and barbaric... Very very bad example of how a Dharma practitioner should behave...

Harold Musetescu

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Gabby Potter
"As a Buddhist, we are not supposed to criticize and talk down about another teacher, a religion, a system. That is definitely not what the Buddha has taught, contrary, the Buddha has always talked about practicing acceptance, understanding and tolerance."

Sorry Potter but your wrong. The sutras tells us that the Buddha would engage in debates with teachers from other beliefs. He would show them that their belief systems were wrong and in the end they gave up their false beliefs and joined him.

What you are saying is western new age buddhism and not what the Buddha did and taught.

He criticized others and as a Buddhist, we ARE supposed to criticize and talk down about another teacher, a religion, a system.

That is what we are doing here on this thread about the NKT.

We are practicing "Right Speech" and not "Politicially Correct Speech"

Harold Musetescu

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Could all this anger by the NKT be a possible act of "Revenge"?

Yes, that may simply be the case.

Geshe la has never declared to be a  "Tulku".

After everything he has done to spread the Dharma, Dorje Shugden and his battles against the Dalai Lama there was no "Official Public" recognition for his efforts.

Could all this anger against H.H. Trijang Rinpoche and the other Dorje Shugden Tulkus and Lamas be caused because they "Refused" to make him a "Tulku"?

Yes that right "Refused".

"Hell has no fury" like a Geshe la refused his "Tulku" title.




Lineageholder

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Well done everyone! I've seen every negative thought and delusion possible expressed on this topic.

Perhaps you could contemplate why a renunciate monk who has no interest in women, sex or children could possibly end up as a disrobed, married parent? Do you really think that's possible? What possible benefit could there be for sentient beings and what message does that send about ordination, which is vitally important in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, considering that both Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden both wear ordained robes?

Please think about how believing that a disrobed boy could possibly be a valid Tulku of Trijang Rinpoche and how this belief humiliates the great Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. Please also think how this example of being a disrobed  lineageholder in Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition is a really bad example that will cause it to degenerate.

Please think!






« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 07:53:30 AM by vajratruth »

vajratruth

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Well done everyone! I've seen every negative thought and delusion possible expressed on this topic.

Perhaps you could contemplate why a renunciate monk who has no interest in women, sex or children could possibly end up as a disrobed, married parent? Do you really think that's possible? What possible benefit could there be for sentient beings and what message does that send about ordination, which is vitally important in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, considering that both Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden both wear ordained robes?

Please think about how believing that a disrobed boy could possibly be a valid Tulku of Trijang Rinpoche and how this belief humiliates the great Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. Please also think how this example of being a disrobed  lineageholder in Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition is a really bad example that will cause it to degenerate.

Please think!

Dear Lineageholder,

Should we similarly discard all works and teachings by His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama, the Mahasiddha Serkong Dorje Chang, His Holiness the 6th Dalai Lama and also the Mahasiddha Gantapha? Can we write them off since all these great Masters had consorts?

swainsonjohn

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The groups,WSS/SSC/ISC/ISBC, allegedly known as ‘Not The NKT’, recently informed the public it would organise protests over the recognition of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche as Tulku. Following requests from many quarters, the threat of  protests has been withdrawn.  It is not news that Geshe Kelsang does not agree with this recognition. The question I have, is why this matter has been raised by ‘Not The NKT,’ at this time?

‘The Real NKT’, tell us. ‘…we are different traditions; we are a Western tradition, within Western culture for Western practitioners, and they are a Tibetan tradition, within Tibetan culture, teaching largely in a monastic context.’

Also, ‘….While to some, the practices of recognizing Tulkus and using oracles for divination may seem interesting and exotic, they are well outside Western cultural norms.’
Although the lineage Gurus of the NKT from Je Tsongkhapa up to Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso are Tibetan Lamas, the NKT is not Tibetan Buddhism.
When the NKT became the International Kadampa Buddhist Union, which is legally registered under English law, it became a legally independent Buddhist tradition.
The main reason why NKT–IKBU has chosen to become legally registered as an independent Buddhist tradition is because it was recognized that in Tibetan Buddhism there are so many political problems. These problems are due to the mixing of Dharma and politics, with higher Lamas using the holy Dharma of Buddha’s teachings for political aims.
http://kadampa.org/buddhism/modern-kadampa-buddhism

‘It is also worth noting that Geshe Kelsang has not tried to interfere with how Shar Gaden or Serpom Norling are organized, even when his involvement was requested. He has never tried to interfere with any other Buddhist Center in the West either.’

“We don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.” (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 76)
Before the claim the NKT is not the ISBC is made, without the NKT the ISBC would not function.
President: Brianna Groshon….Kelsang Demo

Treasurer: Lisa Klusendorf…..Also Treasurer of the Kadampa Meditation Center New York

Secretary: Rachel Jeffrey……Kelsang Norden
Henry Shefveland …..Kelsang Jampa…. Signatory of the open letter dated 10th March 2017 from the International Shugden Buddhist Community.




Lineageholder

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Well done everyone! I've seen every negative thought and delusion possible expressed on this topic.

Perhaps you could contemplate why a renunciate monk who has no interest in women, sex or children could possibly end up as a disrobed, married parent? Do you really think that's possible? What possible benefit could there be for sentient beings and what message does that send about ordination, which is vitally important in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, considering that both Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden both wear ordained robes?

Please think about how believing that a disrobed boy could possibly be a valid Tulku of Trijang Rinpoche and how this belief humiliates the great Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. Please also think how this example of being a disrobed  lineageholder in Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition is a really bad example that will cause it to degenerate.

Please think!

Dear Lineageholder,

Should we similarly discard all works and teachings by His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama, the Mahasiddha Serkong Dorje Chang, His Holiness the 6th Dalai Lama and also the Mahasiddha Gantapha? Can we write them off since all these great Masters had consorts?

There are no 'consorts' in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, Je Rinpoche's example shows that.

ShugdenProtector

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When you have BS talk and believe that their BS-ing is the TRUTH? What do you get?
The NKT Kelsangs!

Forget about real logic  and answering all our logical questions and why they even USE the so-called person's students & followers they SUDDENLY decided to openly condemn and yet still wanna believe in Dorje Shugden even though DS is one of them who recognise the current one they condemn... and ALL their deluded excuses on why they are sane and right. It is amazing how much they think the world is dumb and what an insult to our intelligence. It is so funny how they can suddenly just turn around and back stab everyone especially the current HH. Trijang Rinpoche's students yet they still wanna preach dharma? Wow sounds like those fanatical Jehovah cultish group. Now I understand WHY people call them a cult! So sad they are proving those NKT-haters right.

Just see the kind of BS we have to tolerate online.... thanks, you guys really such an inspirational group of holy Dharma, oh not forgetting "pure" Buddhist. You really know how to represent your Guru & centre ------- looks to me they are the "troublemaker" here...


He gives one cheek to be slapped and then shoot himself in the foot. Smart - not!

Harold Musetescu

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Who would Geshe la formally bow to?

Is there any Tulku that he would bow to?

It would not be Trijang Rinpoche.

If he will not formally bow to Trijang Rinpoche then would he refuse to formally bow to all Tulkus?

Would he now refuse to bow to his former teachers that are Tulkus?

Maybe he fears that if he bows to them his students would think him some how less then these Tulkus?

In the NKT they bow only to Geshe la and no one else.


Gabby Potter

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Sorry Potter but your wrong. The sutras tells us that the Buddha would engage in debates with teachers from other beliefs. He would show them that their belief systems were wrong and in the end they gave up their false beliefs and joined him.

What you are saying is western new age buddhism and not what the Buddha did and taught.

He criticized others and as a Buddhist, we ARE supposed to criticize and talk down about another teacher, a religion, a system.

That is what we are doing here on this thread about the NKT.

We are practicing "Right Speech" and not "Politicially Correct Speech"

Yes the Buddha debated with teachers of other faith/ belief but the Buddha is enlightened, his motivation for debating is not to put them down but to convince them that what Buddha believes in does bear results. Again, Buddha DEBATED WITH FACTS, he DID NOT CRITICIZE NOR PUT DOWN peoples' faith, there's a huge difference between these two words. None of us should not be criticizing peoples' religions, it's morally incorrect; even if you want to, just keep it to yourself, don't force your view on others. What NKT are doing now is they are putting down peoples' faith and forcing people to follow them which is absolutely incorrect. Have you seen how the NKT talk and write? They have no idea what they are talking about, there's no proof or evidence to support their claims on the illegitimacy of the tulku and oracle systems. Of course they wouldn't dare to DEBATE because whatever they are claiming can be easily defeated ...

Harold Musetescu

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Hi Potter

The highest Gelugpa tantra is the "Kalachakra".

I have received it twice.

It teaches of a great Kalachakra war in the year 2424.

In this war the Shambala Warriors SLAUGHTER all the Muslims on this planet called Earth..

How's that for criticizing someone else's religion!!!

How's that for putting down someone faith!!!!

 8)