Author Topic: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS  (Read 26612 times)

Guru

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MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« on: May 25, 2008, 09:00:01 PM »
WESTERN SHUGDENERS,

I AM FIRST, A TIBETAN THEN, A SHUGDEN PRACTIONERS. I SAW IN VIDEO'S YOU INGI'S SHUGDEN FOLLOWERS IN RED ROBES PROTESTING WHEREEVER HH THE DALIA LAMA WENT. THIS WAS VERY ANGRY TO SEE. YOU INGI'S, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. THIS IS OUR INTERNAL TIBETAN MATTER. GET YOUR DIRTY FISTS OFF. WHO IS ASKING YOU INGI'S NOT TO WORSHIP SHUGDEN. THOUGH HH HAS ASKED TIBETANS NOT TO WORSHIP THE DEITY, HE HAS THE RIGHT AS HE IS OUR ONE AND ONLY LEADER. IT IS SAD BUT HE HAS THE RIGHT AFTER EVERYTHING HE HAS DONE FOR TIBETANS AND TIBET. TILL NOW I WAS GIVEN FREE EDUCATION, HOME, SETTLEMENT, ETC ETC BY HH AND GOVT IN EXILE. WHAT HAS SHUGDEN AND SOME OF THE LAMA'S AND GHESHA'S DONE TO TIBET.

WESTERN SHUDGENERS, STOP DIVIDING US. THIS IS OUR PROBLEM, AGAIN. YOU LOTS PROTESTING DOES NOT HELP US IN ANYWAY. IT MAKES MATTERS WORSE. WE DON'T AGREE WITH YOU PROTESTING AGAINST HH THE DALAI LAMA. STOP DEGRADING OUR LEADER.

AND I ASK ALL TIBETAN DORJEE SHUGDEN PRACTIONERS TO ASK THESE MAD INJI'S NOT TO MEDDLE IN OUR INTERNAL AFFAIRS.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 09:30:37 PM by Guru »

basically

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2008, 09:41:17 PM »
Hello Guru

I'm sorry you felt angry.  And I'm sorry again but we are only going to stop when the Dalai Lama agrees to talk about this issue - something he has refused to do until now.  The solution to this problem is entirely in his hands as he is the sole creator of this problem.

We are excercising our freedom of speech because this lama has chosen to ignore polite requests for discussion for 12 years.  He will have to hear what we are saying eventually. 

I agree with you that it is a Tibetan problem.  But it has also a great effect on Shugden practitioners who are not Tibetan.  In the UK and US I have personally experienced ostracism, insults, threats and humiliation from other Buddhists for many years because of this situation.  Only one person's view has caused this through him forcing his idea on every other Buddhist worldwide.  Even some from non-Tibetan lineages of Buddhism follow his wrong view.

Buddha said that we should practice patience with our inner problems.  But the Dalai Lama has caused an outer problem that will not be solved through patience alone.  We need to do something. All we are doing - without disrespect - is to strongly put our point of view across in public.

Please I can assure you that although the demonstrations appear angry there is no-one at these demonstrations who feels anger at anybody.  We are just shouting strongly so that the truth will be heard.

You say the DL has the right to do this kind of thing - but in fact he does not have the spiritual authority to tell Gelugpas what to do - in truth this is the job of the Ganden Tripa.  There are many issues in Tibet which the Dalai Lama himself has created by mixing his role as political leader with his spiritual life. It is very confusing for everybody.

love
Basically.....

a friend

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2008, 09:57:00 PM »
Dearest Basically and Guru,

I strongly disagree with both of you.

There is no Dalai Lama and no Ganden Tripa who has the right to destroy the pure lineage of Je Tsongkapa.
And this is NOT A TIBETAN PROBLEM.

I repeat:

THIS IS NOT A TIBETAN PROBLEM.
Whoever told you such nonsense?

Guru

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2008, 10:36:37 PM »
I REPEAT THIS IS A TIBETAN ISSUE. IT DOES NOT AFFECT WESTERN PRACTIONERS AT ALL. YOU LOTS DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT TIBET.
WE URGE WESTERN PRACTIONERS NOT TO MEDDLE IN OUR INTERNAL PROBLEMS AND PLEASE STOP DEFAMING OUR LEADER H H THE DALAI LAMA. 

IF YOU WANT A POLITICS FREE BHUDDHISM THEN SORRY YOU ARE ON THE WRONG TRACK. YOU MUST EITHER ROLL BACK TO YOUR BIRTH RELIGION OR CHOOSE SRI-LANKAN OR BURMESE BHUDDHISM.

YOUR'S IN DHARMA,
GURU

DS

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2008, 10:55:37 PM »
Dear Sanghas,
                  No matter what this GURU says, I M TIBETAN TOO and we are hundreds and thousands others that fully stand and support these demonstrations.

 Thank you for being our VOICES.


a friend

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 11:09:45 PM »
Hey Guru,

if it's true that you are Tibetan, then you have to be a debater. Tibetans are famous for debate, not for senseless reasons.

Ok. Let's imagine that you are a Buddha Dorje Shugden practitioner. How would you feel if you were accused to your co-workers, or to your students if you are a teacher, to be a devil-worshipper? I give you just this very small example to show you that Western practitioners are also terribly affected by this slandering campaign that the Dalai Lama started years ago.

Another thing: if it's true that you are Tibetan, how come you don't care about your fellow Tibetans whose lives have been ruined or are being ruined by the persecution of the Dalai Lama? Don't you have a heart?
.
And still another thing: please have more respect for religion. If you don't have it, then one of two things: either you are not Tibetan or all the stories about Tibetans being such great Buddhists are not true. Your choice.

Guru

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2008, 12:27:35 AM »
DEAR DS,

IT IS A SHAME THAT YOU LOTS ARE SEEKING OUTSIDE HELP TO SEEK OUT OWN INTERNAL PROBLEMS. DON'T REPEAT HISTORY.

AND IS THIS HOW YOU PAY BACK YOUR GREATNESS TO HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA AND GOVT. IN EXILE FOR ALL THE FREE EDUCATION, HOSPITALS, SETTLEMENT. ARE YOU THE TYPE WHO SHIT ON THE SAME PLATE THAT FEEDS YOU.

WE MAY HAVE DIFFERENCES BUT LET'S SOLVE IT OURSELF. WE DON'T NEED EXTERNAL HELP PLEASE. THIS WILL MAKE MATTERS WORSE.  DON'T BELIEVE ME. LOOK AT SOME OF THE COMMENTS ON THE TREADS POSTED ON THIS FORUM. ANTI DALAI LAMA, TIBET AND TIBETANS.

THERE ARE SOME PRO CHRISTIAN AND OTHER'S PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DEFAME BUDDHISM.

TIBET IS MORE IMPORTANT AT THIS VERY MOMENT.
BHOD GYALO.

IN DHARMA
GURU
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 01:12:53 AM by Guru »

a friend

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2008, 01:07:42 AM »
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU CARE SO MUCH FOR TIBETANS. WE DO.

IF YOU WERE TIBETAN, YOU WOULD LOVE AND PROTECT YOUR FELLOW TIBETANS
PERSECUTED BY THE DALAI LAMA

WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THEY STONED HOUSES OF TIBETAN PRACTITIONERS, SET FIRE TO THE HOMES OF TIBETAN PRACTITIONERS, RUINED THE BUSINESSES OF TIBETAN PRACTITIONERS, INSULTED THE TIBETAN CHILDREN IN SCHOOL? DID YOU GO AND DEFEND THEM?
THESE VICTIMS, WERE THEY NOT TIBETANS?

WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THE MONKS WERE PROHIBITED FROM GOING TO THE KITCHEN OF THE MONASTERY, PROHIBITED TO RECEIVE FOOD, PROHIBITED TO BUY FOOD, PROHIBITED TO GO THE THE MAIN TEMPLE, PROHIBITED TO ATTEND DEBATES, PROHIBITED TO GO TO THE SETTLEMENTS TO GET SOMETHING TO COOK WITH ... PROHIBITED TO ATTEND THE MÖNLAM CHENMO, PROHIBITED OF BEING SERVED BREAD AND TEA LIKE THE OTHER MONKS ... WHERE WERE YOU?
THESE MONKS, WERE THEY NOT TIBETANS?

SO WHY DO YOU CRY ABOUT TIBETANS? IF YOU ALLOW YOUR LEADER TO MAKE YOUR FELLOW TIBETANS UNTOUCHABLES?

WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT WHEN YOU CRY FOR TIBETANS?

...

Guru

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2008, 01:31:58 AM »
FRIEND,

I AM VICTIM MYSELF.

AND ALL I AM SAYING IS WHY DO WE HAVE TO INVOLVE EXTERNAL FORCES IN OUR INTERNAL MATTERS.

I CAN SEE EVERYTHING GOING WRONG.

NEITHER THIS IS GOING TO HELP US (SHUGDEN PRACTIONERS), HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA, GOVT IN EXILE, TIBETANS AND TIBETAN BHUDDHISM.

READ MY LIPS. THIS IS TIBETAN BHUDDHISM AT IT'S DOOM.

a friend

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2008, 02:38:39 AM »
I'm sorry Guru,

The doom of Tibetan Buddhism happened already years ago.
I heard one of our highest Lamas saying it, and I thought at the time that he was talking about the Chinese.
Alas! Afterwards I realized that he was talking about the actions of the Dalai Lama.

If I were you I wouldn't worry so much. Do you think the Dalai Lama is loosing much with these demonstrations? I don't think so. He is much stronger than anybody else, I have to say.

I, for one, will continue to do things in order that the world knows about his abuse of power and so on. But I don't think we will obtain much, his fame is too extensive, all pervasive. I would be satisfied that at least some few people might become aware of the religious persecution motivated by the Dalai Lama's solitary one-man politics.

I would be satisfied that at least some people realize that it's not true that my Lamas were devil worshippers and sectarian.

I would be satisfied that out of fear of our campaign, at least some Tibetans are spared the cruelty of the Tibetan government in exile and its fanatical Associations. Some might escape its goons hopefully.

So you see, I'm sorry that you are so anguished but you are wasting your time. We are not going to stop.

ContentKadampa

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2008, 04:27:07 AM »
Dear Guru,

I think I understand where you are coming from, and why you do not want "outside interference".  However, I am afraid I see two serious flaws in your argument.

1.  The first is that the Dalai Lama himself has both accepted help from western countries and has lobbied for it for many years. As one example, it is quite well-documented that the CIA helped train and arm Tibetan freedom fighters in the 1960s.  If you wish, I am happy to provide some of the references on this, but you yourself are probably already aware of the help Tibet received. 

So if the Dalai Lama himself has asked for help (and received it) from outside forces to help solve Tibet's political problems, then surely, in following the example of his leadership, it is also acceptable for other Tibetans to also accept help to solve spiritual problems.

2.  The second flaw in your argument is your repeated statement that this is only a Tibetan issue which does not affect western practitioners.  I wish that this were true.  As others have also stated and know all too well, western Dorje Shugden practitioners also suffer as a result of the Dalai Lama's unfortunate actions -- just not so severely as our Tibetan counterparts.  Right in my own Sangha community, this issue is very real, very alive, and, for some of us, very much affects our day-to-day lives.  Just as in Tibet, where communities have been divided, so we western Buddhists have also been divided.  Even in my own city, I am sad to say that it is "Gelugpa against Gelugpa"; we constantly hear word of the members of the other Gelugpa Buddhist community in town slandering us.  Except it is not usually Asian people who are attacking us in this sad war of words; it is other westerners.

I respect your point of view, and I do wish protesting never had to start.  But on the other hand, I also wish I had not taken another rebirth in samsara, and yet the karma for that has also ripened. 

Now that my negative karma has ripened -- my wheel of sharp weapons has returned -- my first job is to practice accepting defeat.  I accept the defeat that it is the fault of my own mind of self-cherishing that this horrific, polluted appearance is before me, and not the fault of any other being.

My second job is to purify the negative karma that is sustaining the negative appearance.  Part of my purification practice is the virtuous opponent force of standing up for the current and future spiritual freedom for my own tradition and for the tradition of other practitioners.

I am not angry at the Dalai Lama.  But nevertheless, at this time in history, without firmly opposing his actions, the Ganden Oral Lineage, protected by the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden, will surely disappear.  Probably not in our lifetimes, but if the Fourteenth Dalai Lama is allowed to continue his actions unchecked, there will be no more of Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine in this world.

That is unacceptable.  It is unacceptable for Tibetan Buddhists, for North American Buddhists, for European Buddhists, for Russian Buddhists, for Latino Buddhists, for African Buddhists, for Australian Buddhists... in short, from the point of view of bodhichitta, it is unacceptable to allow the destruction of this lineage without at least making an effort to stop it.

That is why we are protesting.  I am sorry that it is upsetting to you.
 

DS

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2008, 05:09:26 AM »
GURU
Stop lying about being a shugden practitioner cos you are not . I bet you are from the other side pretending to be one of us, instigating and trying hard to make the matter worse. (THIS IS NOT GONNA HAPPEN).

I know what i m going through as a tibetan. No one else can feel this pain and suffering. I also do feel for the freedom struggle and what has happened in Tibet, but if that issue has not risen up, I being a lay person living in a tibetan community outside India might have already been on the chopping board forcing to choose between my heart and my soul.(His Holiness started this ostracism just before tibetan losar and the uprising in Tibet started on march 10.) AND i know its coming, its just a matter of time. Only my brothers and sisters from the western shugden society can rescue us and i have faith in them that success will come, that truth shall triumph.

I once again thank Western Shugden society for unveiling the truth. We are all with you guys. KEEP IT UP , KEEP IT GOING.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 05:55:24 AM by DS »

Guru

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2008, 10:19:38 AM »
ALL,

THIS IS WHY I SAY. WESTERN SHUGDEN PRACTIONER'S DO NOT GET INVOLVED IN THIS. NOW LOOK HOW DIRTY AND UGLY THIS IS GETTING.

1.   YOU CALL HIS HOLINESS DALAI LAMA, HYPOCRITE, DICTATOR, SAFFRON MONK....., TWO FACED, BLAH BLAH
2.   SOME OF YOU ARE OPENLY AGAINST TIBET'S FREEDOM.
3.   TRYING TO DIVIDE THE TIBETANS BY USING THE KHAMPA, AMDO AND TSANG CARD.
4.   STOP BRINGING UP NAMES OF SOME LAMA'S (DAGOM RINPOCHE).

ATTITUDES LIKE THESE WILL KEEP US DIVIDED.

IN DHARMA
GURU

kelsang

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2008, 12:12:09 PM »
Dear Guru,

simple questions, where do u live?

when was the last time somebody spit on u?

Did your house ever got burned by an angry mob?

Did you ever had to run for your life?

Do you have children? If so do u have to fear for their lifes??

The tibetans who have to experiance this kind of things are the ones who support the demonstrations and appreciate them.

Kelsang

Guru

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2008, 03:10:46 PM »
KESANGLA,

I HAVE BEEN A VICTIM AND SO HAVE SOME OF MY RELATIVES.

BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME ANTI-TIBETAN, ANTI-DALAI LAMA OR ANTI BHO-SHUNG. I AM NOT GOING TO BE BE UNGRATEFUL FOR ALL THE FREE EDUCATION, BENFITS, ETC ETC. I HAVE RECEIVED.

PLUS I AM TIBETAN FIRST THEN AM A SHUGDEN PRACTIONERS.

I DON'T AGREE SOME PEOPLE CALLING NAMES AND REJECTING TIBET. THAT'S GOING TO MAKE MATTERS WORSE. SO LET'S BE FARSIGHTED.

IN DHARMA
GURU