Author Topic: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS  (Read 26768 times)

stibo

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2008, 09:44:50 PM »
Hi All,

My message isn't specifically addressed to Guru because I also think that everything has been said about this. I just want to summorize the debate.

I think we can group arguments against the MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS point of view in two different perspectives: religious and politic.

RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVE

The fact that we follow a tibetan Buddism lineage must not hide the fact that we are first of all buddists. And we are buddist following the tibetan lineage of Dje Tsongkhapa, which means that we attach as much importance to each aspect of the teachings of the Buddha included in the three vehicules. Dje Tsongkhapa didn't invent this tradition, he gave a new spin to the thousand old indian buddhist tradition. This is why, for us, the survival of the pure teaching of Dje Tsongkhapa is the most important thing in the world, because this teaching contains everything that one needs to attain the Buddha status and to help other sentient beings to attain the same status. And protesting against the Dorje Shugden ban is a way to protect this pure teaching. This has noting to do with being indian or tibetan or whatever.

Doing this, not only do we protect our own pure teaching and the right to transmit it through a healthy lineage having the freedom to do it openly, but we also make clear that others also have the right to practice their lineage without being persecuted or controlled by outsiders. I will probably hurt your feeling Guru but I think that HH the Dalai Lama is an outsider, even for the Gelugpa order, because he is the head of the government, which means that he is a politic symbol first and, then, a gelugpa monk. The religion must not be controled by the politic peoples, as well as the politic must not be controled by the religious peoples (the ugliest things of the tibetan history have been caused by this confusion). There must be no mix between these two activities. This is why I said that HH the Dalai Lama is an outsider because he has been too much involved in politic matters to be seen as a simple monk. We can say the same thing about the Great Fifth and the Great Thirteenth. Some day, historians will probably call the current Dalai Lama the Great Fourtheenth because he has been so much involved in the politic arena.

This doesn't means that he doesn't have the right to pursue religious activities, indeed he did a lot of teaching, initiations and writing, and nobody complains about this. But when he do that, he is a simple lama, which means that people are free to see him as an emanation of the Buddha if they think that he matchs the criteria to be their spiritual master. But because its image is so important because of his political involvement, at the national and international level, peoples see him as more important than the Ganden Tripa for the Gelugpa order or the Karmapa for the Kagyu order. As Guru said himself, peoples know HH the Dalai Lama, but ignore everything about the Tibet. Why? Because the Dalai Lama is a modern icon, whose preeminence came from the fact that he was the political leader of the Tibet, while being a monk. People love strange things, particularly in the decadent periods. This, plus its personnal charisma, I think, have been the source of the westeners fascination about the Dalai Lama. But this recognition doesn't belong to the spirituality but to star system of the modern world, and, most of all, this popularity doesn't give him, de facto, spiritual autority over the four tibetan buddhist schools. The only autority he have over the different schools come from his temporal autority. Of course, he can, as the Dorje Shugden ban shows, crunch anyone of these traditions.

POLITIC PERSPECTIVE

I use the word "politic" in its broader sense and not in the sense of being a member of a party or whatever.

I think that we, as citizens, have the responsability to denounce any wrong doing by any person or organisation having power over other peoples. And not only regarding the governement of our own country, but also about any government or party misbehaving everywhere in the world. This attitude can be subsumed under what HH the Dalai Lama call "Universal Responsability".

Of course, as buddhists we must face a dilemna because, by denoncing the Dalai Lama power abuses, we give a bad image of the Tibetan Buddism. But, there is two reasons for denoncing anyway in spite of this.

First, one of the most serious problem of the modern world, and, consequently, of HH the Dalai Lama career in this world, is the importance given to the image. Not only are we prisonner of a illusion like world, but we are subjugated by a reflection of this illusion. And this idolatry as never been so strong as in our modern society. So we must fight against this tendancy to give to appearances so much importance at the point that we don't intervene when we see something that will have very bad consequences for the well being of many peoples in this live and in the future lives, today and for the future generations.

Second, the longer and the tighter we will hide the wrong doing of HH the Dalai Lama and of the TGIE, the greater the damages will be once the true will be known. As A friend has said, "Among Catholic practitioners the outrage against their Church was not so much about the misconduct of individuals but about the COVER UP. Because the cover up allows for more victims. Whereas the uncovering of the truth helps preventing more attacks, and be able to help the individuals that misbehaved."

Dharmapal

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2008, 01:34:30 AM »
Great post, thank you Stibo.

So that more people can read it, do you feel like adding it to the comments section of the www.WisdomBuddhaDorjeShugden.org blog? Maybe in two or three parts?

 ::)

maryjane

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Re: Freedom of speech and expression ...
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2008, 03:14:12 AM »
Guru - you are entitled to your opinions and views and have expressed them because this is your right - to freedom of speech and expression.  In addition, this forum believes in freedom of speech and expression.  Hence, you perhaps would not know what it feels like for this basic freedom to be curbed or banned.  At the end of the day what you post here is just that, an expressed opinion.  You have a right to state it just as people have a right to state their disagreements and peacefully protest against the DL, similar concept different venues.

Likewise, what the Western Shugden Society protests are doing is just that, expressing opinion.  You are telling members in this forum to stay out of your affairs, how you have been a refugee and feel obliged to the DL. The WSS is telling the DL to stop lying and stay out of denigrating a much cherished tradition to thousands of people worldwide because they feel obliged to the practice of Dorje Shugden. Basically, we are all expressing our opinions. From postings in this forum it has become clear that there are Tibetan Shugden Supporters for WSS because they help raise worldwide attention to the cause, awareness in the media and their voices are being heard.  So when you say 'We Tibetans' I suggest your speak for yourself and not attempt to separate between Shugden devotees.

 

prodorjeshugden

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2015, 02:05:44 PM »
The westerners who are protesting are protesting for your sake, they are helping to relieve the suffering of thousands of Shugden practitioners in India. If the westerners don't protest it is quite likely that they will suffer forever, with the westerners protesting they are putting pressure on the CTA and the Dalai Lama, that way with the protest going on continually the sufferings of the thousands of Shugdeners  is likely to end soon.

Buddhism does not have anything to do with politics,it's just that due to the CTA politics have been mixed with Buddhism and it's practice. 

The Dorje Shugden ban issue may be a Tibetan problem, but it actually affects people from all over the world. Some people who are not Tibetans but practice Dorje Shugden are sometimes mistreated and abused, simply because they worship a so called devil.

Hopefully the protest will keep up and maybe one day it will take it's toll and thousands will be freed from mistreatment and ostracism. 

grandmapele

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2016, 05:11:44 PM »
It is easier to just bury my head in the sand and not get involved in this argument. But, if I know it is causing suffering, it is a a lot of negative karma for me to do nothing. If I know of it, I have to do something to help as in if I see a dog suffering, I have to do something, even by giving just a morsel of food to alleviate its suffering for that moment.

Why do you let this ban divide the Tibetans? Why let it go on? Is it a ploy to divert attention from the real issue -  that Tibet is lost to the CTA in finality? Or even that they are not interested in returning to Tibet per se as they will be not as powerful once back on Tibetan soil?

Jason Statham

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2016, 10:39:29 AM »
Dear Guru,

It is true that this is a Tibetan issue, but if foreigners do not speak up for the Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners, then who will? It has been 20 over years since Dalai Lama started the ban and the ban is still not yet lifted and the Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners are also not being able to practice Dorje Shugden freely without being threatened or having to face discrimination. Your fellow Tibetan DS practitioners are not even being treated well by their own people and who do you expect them to seek help from? We do not gain anything if the Dalai Lama lifts the ban, but on the other hand for your Tibetan DS practitioners, it is a great relief as they able to know what it feels like to be treated normally.

Jason.

Shugdener

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2016, 02:58:18 PM »
Dear Guru,

I don't agree with you that this is a Tibetan problem and we western Shugdeners cannot do anything to help.

This ban restricting people from practicing Dorje Shugden doesn't just affect Tibetans but the World.

This ban has split Buddhist practitioners all around between those who want to continue to worship Dorje Shugden and those who choose to follow the instructions of the Dalai Lama and to stop worshipping Dorje Shugden.

If this is an internal matter, why are monks from Gaden monastery split apart, is it because this "internal matter" is a plot to pull apart monks from India as well?

It is very obvious that this is no "Internal matter" and is instead a global issue, how the Western practitioners want to voice out their opinions should be up to them, we are all from diffrent parts of the world and we have different ideas to voicing out opinions.

These demonstrations causes no physical nor mental harm to the Dalai Lama.

If you are a follower of the Dalai Lama you would know that he is a Living Buddha? So how can we normal human beings harm Him in any way?