Author Topic: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS  (Read 26764 times)

GreatWheel

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2008, 02:21:02 PM »
Fantastic to see!!
Must have been some press release to india this week from WSS.

Great to see this!
I rejoice!
A good way to start the morning!
The Effort is the attainment- Kadam Ace Remas

basically

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2008, 02:50:21 PM »
Take a look at the Western Shugden Society Web page http://petition.westernshugdensociety.org/results.php

Over 180 Tibetans from the US and from India just signed the petition today

Cheyenne


Thank you Cheyenne....

It is wonderful to see these incredibly brave Tibetan Shugden practitioners; they know what they are doing very clearly.  I fully rejoice in their Bodhisattva courage.  Thank you to each one of them most sincerely.

This kind of action is definitely needed to show the Dalai Lama and supporters that we mean "Enough is enough!".

It gives me hope that we shall be able to practice freely without fear of persecution, ridicule etc that has been heaped upon us since the Dalai Lama's illegal actions of inciting and scapegoating.

Guru

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2008, 09:40:33 PM »
crouching, you complain that

Guru

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2008, 10:29:33 PM »
Crouching and all DS Tibetans, Offcourse we will be accused as long as we side with some group and org who are actually Anti-Tibet. You don't have to go very far for your answers. Go to the homepage, you will see the Chinese Panchen and then go to the forums where some of comments are so anti Tibet and Tibetans. Tibetans means, YOU and ME. You go through some of the comments, they are so raciest, supremacist. We are asking to lift the restrictions on Dorjee Shugden. We are not here to bring down the TGIE and HH the Dalai Lama(though it's unlikely). Have you ever thought of the consequences to Tibetans in Exile (that's includes you and me) and Tibet, Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism if anything happened to HH the Dalai Lama and TGIE. Couple of years back, one very close Indian friends said if you did not have the Dalai Lama, Tibetans would be bullied everywhere. I really think this is true. Facts are facts and it should be accepted gracefully though we have odds. Don't wait till it's too late. Even if that happens those who you are supporting now will never come to save us. They don't care for Tibet and Tibetans. These people will just dump us when their motives are achieved. I am saying this because i know and have heard from reliable sources. Sam-lo yak-po thang. Sam-lo thang not for just religion. If you don't believe me do a research who is organizing these protest. Check the people and the societies who are behind this. Later it's no point crying over spilled milk.

All others, We know your motives behind the protest. So Stop interfering in our internal matters.

emptymountains

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2008, 10:40:28 PM »
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Stop interfering in our internal matters.

There's no such thing as a closed system.

a friend

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2008, 03:57:04 AM »
Guru, I wonder why you dare use such high name when you behave as a cry-baby.
As if the lives of Tibetans were at risk were it not for the Dalai Lama! What invention is this, man?
I know lots of Tibetans entirely free from the Dalai Lama that live very happily and at peace without him ... of course, far away from his cruel Government in exile.

So stop talking nonsense. I don't think you are a practitioner more than I am the man from the moon.
But you are welcome to become one.
Stop whining, will you? Here we are trying to help Tibetans victims of the Dalai Lama. If for you they are nothing worthy of attention, for us they are.

Good night!

basically

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2008, 07:19:40 AM »
Dear guru

Your attitude is like that of the father of a family where he is beating up his wife and children every day; when the wife and children try to get help to stop the beating by telling others about it the father says "I am your only hope - if you tell others and destroy me then you destroy our family!"  It is a familiar blackmail used by abusers the world over. 

The Dalai Lama and yourself are no different from this father.  Abusers hanging on to power by threats and blackmail.....   :'(














Atishas cook

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2008, 11:37:17 AM »
Guru -

If i am Anti-Tibetan - in fact, if i am Anti-anyone - then i am not a Dorje Shugden practitioner because i am violating my precepts and the very foundation of Guru Tsongkhapa's doctrine.

I'll be honest - i need to watch my mind carefully when i think or speak of the Dalai Lama.  Aversion sometimes arises in my mind, and i have to remind myself that he is my mother and that he is a suffering migrator worthy of my compassion and respect, just as is Hitler.  I use this comparison with full knowledge of its implications.

Out of compassion, i believe it would be best for the Dalai Lama (and therefore the TGIE that carries out only his wishes) to change his mind and practise wisdom and compassion.  Failing that, it would be best for everyone - you included - if he were removed from power.  However - to aim at that end would be a political goal, and it is not my intention, nor that of any of the organisers of the demonstrations (of which i am not one).  Our aim is - solely - to preserve and protect the pure lineage of Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine by securing the rights of everyone - again, you included - to rely on and practise the Protector of his doctrine, Gyalchen Dorje Shugden.  Once this aim is realised, all the demonstrations and other activity of these organisations will stop, whether or not the Dalai Lama is in power.

Our aim is not political, and you are mistaken to believe that it is.  I believe you may be thinking in this way because, as you say yourself, you view yourself first as a Tibetan and second as a Dorje Shugden practitioner.  Your view is likely, therefore, to be political or nationalistic first, and religious only second.  I believe that the vast majority of the posters on this forum view themselves as Dorje Shugden practitioners first, and as Tibetans, Americans, British, Indian, Chinese, Swiss, or whatever, second.  Their views and intentions, therefore, are primarily - or, if they are sincere practitioners, exclusively - religious.

This is about Dharma, not about Tibet.

emptymountains

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2008, 12:00:20 PM »
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Your view is likely, therefore, to be political or nationalistic first, and religious only second.  I believe that the vast majority of the posters on this forum view themselves as Dorje Shugden practitioners first, and as Tibetans, Americans, British, Indian, Chinese, Swiss, or whatever, second.  Their views and intentions, therefore, are primarily - or, if they are sincere practitioners, exclusively - religious.

This is about Dharma, not about Tibet.

One's ethnicity/nationality/government will not help at the time of death, only one's refuge in the Three Jewels.

Vajra

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2008, 05:02:06 PM »
Atishas cook & Emptymountains,

Very wise answers and words, I would say that ultimately speaking we lack of true existence; if Guru is first a Tibetan or we are American or European, etc, then we can made an analysis to find the Tibetan, but we'll realize that there is no such Tibetan, American, European, even no Buddhists, no bla bla.. (as the Prajnaparamita Sutra says) apart from the name. So, because we are Buddhists practitioners, it is a waste of time and energy to fight for political reasons, because finally it implies a nonsense life; to fight for that reasons can make that we forget the Dharma.
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One's ethnicity/nationality/government will not help at the time of death, only one's refuge in the Three Jewels.
. Dharma is first, and it also shows us how to face even a political problem; politics are dirty, Dharma is pure.

Also it is nonsense, and ignorant, to think that Tibetan people will be bullied everywhere if somethig happens to the Dalai Lama. Again, this is a wrong view, as if this exists by its own side, to think that without him Tibetans are lost shows attachment, self grasping, an affirmation without any valid basis.

Guru

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2008, 10:45:34 PM »
a cook, e-mountain and vajra, you guys will never understand because you have never been a Refugee. You have not been thrown around, register every 6 month to the local auth to get one's refugee certificate renewed, feeling of alien, i can go on and on...................... only the person who wears the shoe knows where it pinches.

basically, don't teach us to keep our family together, on that i will honestly say Asians are better. it is better to take few punches for the unity of the family longterm then to seek help from external and break the family forever for long term. ask yourself. where is divorce rate higher and family breakups.

vajra, some more examples. Believe it or not.
1.   whenever we have an argument with the locals in south or north india, nepal. the locals always says "WAIT TILL HH DALAI LAMA IS GONE" this makes us angry but it's true.
2.   go to some places. if you say you tibetan and from tibet. they will look like at our face as if we are from outer planet. But tell them the name Dalai Lama. They will say you are Dalai Lama's people and give us respect.
3.   this was told to me by my elders. when india heard the HH the Dalai lama was captured by the Chinese just before he fled. Indian secret services and police rounded up the few tibetans that had reached the border to sent them back.


All Tibetans and Bhod-rig,

It's good that there is less and less tibetan joining in the protest.

Even if there are some. Ask them to investigate who are the people behind and their motives behind the protest. Show them the language they use in the protest and in the forums. To us, seriously. They don't care about lifting the restrictions on Shugden. They are more on defaming and bring down HH the dalai lama and TGIE and our Bhuddhist Dharma. These people are really Anti Tibet and Tibetans.

If they really care about their religion and us. they should be trying to bring peace. Talk and trust is the ultimate solution. Did you see the videos of oxford protest. Some nun's were showing fist and almost about to jump on top of HH the Dalai Lama. That's not right and not protesting like a Buddhist nun. Thats VIOLENCE that too from a nun in front of all the camera's. We am really ashamed being a DS devotees. This is really sad.

seeing all these makes us believe that there have an ulterior sinister motive. Stay away. Our thinking and culture is completely different from them. The way they look and the way we look is diverse.
 
Some of them may be really honest but still they should not resort to such method. It looks ugly. It is not just harming other but back-firing the cause.  It is harming Buddhism in a big way.

So all honest people Please think.

Lineageholder

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2008, 10:50:29 PM »
Dear Guru,

Too much time and energy has been devoted to replying to you thus far.  You have a certain fixed view and you are entitled to it.

All the best  ;)

beggar

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2008, 07:27:22 AM »
Dear Guru,

i think you're totally entitled to your views as they come from your direct experience, whether your view is the complete picture or not i am not to judge really.
I'd just like to say that for me, the work on this site is done in large part to bring the many sad things that are hidden now to the surface before they explode all at once and will cause a public relation disaster to the Tibetan government that will result in an incredible loss of sympathy for Tibetans and their plight, as well as to the reputation of Buddhism in general.

As for the demonstrations, i agree it's sad to see people in robes in this context, but of course you have to acknowledge the history that lies behind them. When monks in Myanmar or Tibet protest, we have full understanding because we know they wouldn't do so unless the situation is unbearable. But in this case, just because the truth of all the human rights abuse is (still) hidden, it does not follow that the situation is less grave.

So again, i think our wishes are not that different, and that things develop in a way that many of us regret are just one of the outcomes of trying to suppress or falsify the truth, which is the root of the problem.

All the best -
yours, beggar

Atishas cook

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2008, 01:53:15 PM »
Guru -

i'm honestly sorry that you feel this way.  You are right insofar as i do not have your direct experience of living as a refugee, and what's more i agree that this entire affair is harming the reputation of Buddhists and Buddhism throughout the world.

But you're wrong in saying that the best thing to do would be to pretend to the world that nothing is wrong and our house is in order.  In the end, that would be far worse for the Dharma; when the truth finally comes out, as is inevitable, if no Buddhist had had the honesty, decency and integrity to speak out about it, i think the damage to our religion's reputation would be irreparable.

We are not responsible for this unprecedented schism in the Sangha - that responsibility lies solely with the Dalai Lama, the TGIE, and, yes, with all those who have enabled and allowed him to get away with it.  i will not be one of those.  However distressing and temporarily harmful it may be, it is our responsibility now to bring this shame to light, and to do what we can to control the damage.

If we don't do this now then we are cowards and accomplices.  i feel so, so sorry for the Tibetan people and for all the DL's faithful disciples.  He has betrayed you all utterly.  Dorje Shugden and his sincere practitioners will never betray you - we will fight this Mara with truth and wisdom, and with compassion and love.  i believe we'll prevail.

i will not reply any more on this - Lineageholder is right: too much time has been spent trying to help you and you will not be helped.  You have chosen to disbelieve us through your attachment, but i can't condemn you for it because i can't say that i would do any different were i to be in your shoes.  i am free from that obstruction, however, and so through that freedom i have the responsibility to try to defeat this mara that is the DL's delusion.

The Dalai Lama's delusion is your enemy, not us.  Excusing it and hiding it will only make it grow stronger.

i wish you well - may everyone be freed from misery and its causes.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 01:55:34 PM by Atishas cook »

a friend

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2008, 03:30:50 PM »
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But you're wrong in saying that the best thing to do would be to pretend to the world that nothing is wrong and our house is in order.  In the end, that would be far worse for the Dharma; when the truth finally comes out, as is inevitable, if no Buddhist had had the honesty, decency and integrity to speak out about it, i think the damage to our religion's reputation would be irreparable.


Dearest Atisha's cook,

this is among the most important points that could be advanced to support the demonstrations and letters. The harm of hiding, nowadays, is far bigger than the harm of exposing the truth.

Another thing is: we should not be fearful of accepting that Lord Buddha's doctrine is perfect, but Buddhists are not, otherwise we would not need to be Buddhists, we would be Buddhas already.

The Catholic Church has suffered a lot with the painful truth that has come out in the last decades about the misconduct of priests.
Among Catholic practitioners the outrage against their Church was not so much about the misconduct of individuals but about the COVER UP. Because the cover up allows for more victims. Whereas the uncovering of the truth helps preventing more attacks, and be able to help the individuals that misbehaved.

Now go ahead and follow the reasoning.