Author Topic: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS  (Read 26697 times)

beggar

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2008, 04:25:35 PM »
Hello Guru,

just to add some things you seem to have overlooked: one doesn't have to be against His Holiness the Dalai Lama to be worried about the glaring contradictions in the statements about Dorje Shugden, the de facto human right violations happening right now and the schism in the Sangha and sufferings of lay people they create, and the complete refusal of the Tibetan Government in Exile (from which, on a political level, HH the Dalai Lama cannot be separated) to agree to any kind of dialogue with anyone who upholds the practice of Dorje Shugden, since so many years.

Worried about what? Internally, about what will happen to the noble tradition of Je Tsongkhapa with its great contemporary saints branded as evil, monks excommunicated etc etc. Externally - and this you should consider - what will happen to the Dalai Lama's reputation once these facts (especially the human rights aspect) are 'discovered' by sensationalist tabloid journalists who will have a feast dismantling 'the myth Dalai Lama'? They will not be bothered with respect nor facts, but only big headlines. What will happen to Tibetans and Buddhists in general once the Dalai Lama's reputation is ruined? They will lose all sympathy very quickly, because he is their very image, and then what? Who will donate? Who will help? Will you tell 'us Ingis' to roll back to our native religions and leave you to settle it amongst Tibetans as well?

I don't think so, just like i don't think telling us not to cause division (?) while calling us - do you have any idea how many Tibetans are reading and writing here? - again and again 'You Ingis', foreigners, insinuating that no one except Tibetans has the genetic capacity to practice Buddhism... that same old rhyme we have heard so many times?
The people who have brought HH the Dalai Lama to the West and have made him famous are Dorje Shugden practitioners. The people who are his world-wide audience and who give 99% of the donations to help Tibetan refugees are Ingis - i would try to generate some minimal respect for them (they are also sentient beings by the way).

Eventually, inevitably, the above described scenario is going to happen. Unless... dialogue happens, religious freedom happens first. Wouldn't it be a million times easier to say, 'Let's agree to disagree', and let everyone be REALLY free to practice as they wish?

What we are doing is trying to push in this direction - open discussion with two parties discussing, not only one - by providing tons of information of which huge parts are not just opinions but verifiable facts. Either these facts are soon acknowledged openly or they are going to someday go into the channels mentioned, which none of us wishes. You cannot keep things this big under the rug when you're world famous. His Holiness has said he will win this 'battle' with the power of his reputation, yet this hasn't happened in the monasteries - not in THIRTY YEARS - and it hasn't and won't happen globally. I don't believe for a minute that the Dalai Lama has any bad intentions - in short, i think he's been just trying to make majorities happy - but it is obvious that he has bad advisers, both on the political and oracular level, and now this thing is really going ballistic.

One last thing - the Tibetan monk we saw discussing with the Dalai Lama's representative during the protests was a) very educated and b) very respectful, calling the Dalai Lama 'Gyalwa Rinpoche', as respectful Tibetans do. That's the very big, very obvious difference between practitioners of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition and fanatical Dharamsala politics followers (eastern or western) who would rather burn people's houses than read a book or think for themselves. Of course there are, meanwhile, unfortunately, many people who can't help having negative thoughts about the Dalai Lama's speech and actions. This is another very tragic consequence of Dharamasala's incomprehensible policy that degrades so many including our holiest Lamas. But if you read the actual contents of this site and think about it, i think you will see that we hope and strive for is a good outcome for everyone involved, not just those 'on the right side'. And this is something i find much more worthwhile than trying to prove i am right by slandering all others.

Far sighted is indeed what we should be.


Yours, beggar

maryjane

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS ... likewise Guru!!
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2008, 02:18:23 AM »
Guru,

It appears that the image and celebrity status of the Dalai Lama is of utmost importance to you despite the price and suffering that many pay today for his actions and policies.  He has said that Shugden harms Tibetan Independence, but strongly pushes for Tibetan Autonomy.  He has said that Shugden harms his life, yet  appears to be in good health travelling the world.  Do you not see contradictions here? It is time that the Dalai Lama stop scapegoating Dorje Shugden for his failed policies and lack of momentum in his goals.  A good leader is one that can handle constructive criticism.  A progressive and educated society is one where differences of opinion and disagreements are openly discussed. The Dalai has started this problem, he alone can end it.  A non-Shugden protest banner recently read, "The Lie lama".  You be the judge.

This is not about "these Inji's" or "Tibetans who practice Shugden". This is about the truth and it is time that the Dalai Lama is held accountable for inciting his people's sentiments and abusing his power in order to meet his objectives. What is it going to be next?  That the Tsongkhapa tradition is flawed and needs to be changed? That 'his pet project' the Karmapa that he appointed is going to succeed him? Why don't we just sit quietly and watch while the Dalai covertly bulldozes his way with smiles and charm, to change an entire tradition and system.  Please read your political science and civics books again and learn about the laws of power and what lengths leaders will go to just to meet their vision and objectives.   

Peaceful protest and civil disobedience was something that Gandhi and Martin Luther King taught all of us.  The long marches and peaceful protests against the British for Indian Freedom, the million man march and peaceful protests, civil disobedience during the Civil Rights Movement. Let us learn from history Guru. This matter is not about race, caste or creed.  This is about faith and worship and the Dalai tampering with it.

The whole world is now waking up to the policies of the Dalai and his govt, how it harms, how it doesn't take into account people's freedoms and basic constitutional rights.  How there is now a court case against him and his prime minister in India?  Are you saying that protecting the image of the Dalai is more important than the suffering of people?  Are you really a believer in Shugden?   

Lastly, let us not forget that the west supported Tibetans in their early years after life in exile.  The money and donations poured in from various organizations. The Dalai did not single handedly help his people.  He was able to do so with the support and services from various loyal and hard working people under him among whom were many Shugden practitioners.  Sounds like you were able to receive some of these benefits just as many other Tibetans.  However, this shouldn't be grounds to protect the Dalai's image and differentiate westerners from Tibetans.  Today, as westerners we feel that at a time like this, it becomes crucial to stand up for our brothers and sisters in plight from the Dalai.  Whether you believe it or not, the 'cleaning up' has already begun in monasteries in the west. Hence, this affects us more than you think.

Please ask yourself this question: Is there any suffering among humans because of his policy?  If so, who started this?

Guru

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2008, 02:10:35 AM »
Hello beggar and maryjane,

Western Shugden Society protest is not supported by Tibetan Dorjee shugden practioners. We don't support you. This is beyond Shugden. You guys got serious different agenda. Though protest is good but we don't accept you westerners lot calling names to the Dalai Lama. Initially we supported you but after seeing all the anger, words and your objectives. We had a second thought and now Dorjee Shugden practioners are strongly against you.

You guys can do what you want but please don't do it in the name of Tibetan's. This is dividing the Tibetan further. So we repeat again. Most Tibetans Dorjee Shugden practioners don't support you.

After your protest. Now even the moderate Tibetan are against Shugden and us. This is all getting worst by day. So thanks and No Big Thanks. Please stop this craziness.

I truely thank all the westerners for you help in supporting Tibetans in their early years after life in exile with the money and donations poured in from various organizations. But that does not mean you have to break the Tibetan community just like you helped. When i say this i refer it to those inji's who are trying to create a rift between the different buddhist sects for their own greedy motives.

Dorjee Shugden is watching. So stop it.

in dharma
Guru

Guru

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2008, 02:55:13 AM »
To all WSS and anyone.

and plus we have been hearing that all the monks and nuns in the video and pictures are not ordained members of the monastic Sangha. They are not Getsuls or Gelongs fake.

and also the guy who organised the protest is convicted of sexually abuseing young vulnerable nuns and women for years.

Is this true. Please clarify and make it clean for long term relationship.

in dharma
guru

jeff Ryan

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2008, 03:09:52 AM »
I personally know many Tibetans (that will remain anonymous) who have suffered directly due to the ban initiated by the dl and the TGIE and they support wholeheartedly the demonstrations and some have been present at the demonstrations. There are many Tibetans in the various youtube videos and several are fully ordained Geshes that I know personally. This is NOT a Tibetan issue! This is preserving the pure lineage of JeTsonkhapa which is under siege by the dl and tgie. Thank you WSS!!!!!!
May the Conqueror Lord Je Tsong Khapa's Teaching flourish for endless eons!!!!

beggar

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2008, 05:04:34 AM »

Dear Guru,

'Tibetan' Buddhism is now a global phenomenon - do you expect it to be viewed and discussed in a 'Tibetan' context only? If yes - quite simply, good luck.

According to the feedback we've received on this site many Tibetans participated in the demonstrations and many more were extremely happy that they (finally) happened.
Your way of speaking of 'us Tibetans' and 'you Westerners' speaks volumes by the way. Unfortunately i've read many many similar posts on other forums by - it seems - similar Tibetans, sorry to say. What exactly is it that makes you superior? What the great Lamas did? Well, you're not a great Lama, just like Germans are not nazis because of what their forefathers did.
Plus, it was not only in the 'early years' that donations come POURING in, it is now, as we speak. For what exactly they are being used these days i don't know. What i do know is that far more energy, time and money is being spent on keeping Dorje Shugden as a scapegoat than on any kind of 'Tibetan cause.' Yet all the donations are still coming, precisely because all these nice WESTERN people think it's for the TIBETAN CAUSE, meaning: humanitarian aid etc., NOT defaming great Lamas and making simple people's life hell...

I'll say it one last time: NO MORE DISCUSSION OF NKT/WSS IN THIS FORUM. We are NOT NKT or any other organisation; we are concerned individuals, period. ok? And to say in public, X has been accused of... just to add, Is this true? is really bad style. If i were you i would not open that Pandora's box; it's gonna backfire big time for the big loss of all of us. Get what i mean?

Very soon i'll start deleting posts regarding NKT or those who are purely destructive without typing an explanation every time. Please stop the racist supremacist stuff, and please stop ordering the world around according to your views. Very bad for the Tibetan cause, which has already lost its primary objective - FREEDOM.

Thanks, beggar

basically

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2008, 05:32:48 PM »
Dear guru

I am truly sorry to read your remarks.  I have been a faithful westerner practising Dorje Shugden for 25yrs or more.

My protest correctly describing the Dalai Lama a liar is to try to help Shugden practitioners worldwide to come out from under the heel of religious totalitarianism.  As Shantideva says we cannot make friends with delusions because they will only become stronger.  In 1998 Shugden people stopped protesting the Dalai Lama.  What happened?  His stance became stronger - he was emboldened by our quiet acceptance and in January this year turned up the heat to boiling point by his mis-use of a religious inauguration ceremony unleashing mass expulsions from monasteries etc. as you know very well, the non-stamping of ID cards etc etc etc. and all the other horrible things that are happening.

Please focus your wrath on the cause of your problem - the delusion inside the mind of the person called Dalai Lama.  That is what I have been doing each time I recited "Stop Lying".  On Friday in Oxford he heard it very loudly from us and he is taking notice.  He is paying attention.  He is thinking about what to do next.  He has lost the smug arrogance that led to January's announcements thinking that now was the time to wipe out Shugden practice completely - his actions have actually increased our reliance on our Dharmapala.

I repeat : If you want to be wrathful please direct your wrath at the cause of your problem - the delusion inside the mind of the person called Dalai Lama. 

yours in honour of wisdom buddha Dorje Shugden


basically

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2008, 06:18:41 PM »
Hello again guru

You end one of your posts with "Dorjee Shugden is watching. So stop it"

This is supposed to frighten me into stopping something?

At the demonstrations my motivation is compassion for everyone - especially those suffering under the ban (including yourself) - and my intention is to preserve Je Tsongkhapa's pure lineage.  Is this what you think Dorjee Shugden will do something about to stop me?!  I don't think so.  As you know Dharmapala's function is to be wrathful against the only enemies that we poor sentient beings have - delusions....your attempt to use his name in this way is mistaken and offensive.

maryjane

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2008, 04:10:19 AM »
Ho-hum,  yawn .... next!!!   See you in court ....

crouching tiger

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2008, 04:37:47 AM »
Guru,

I am sure that you are aware of the pain and suffering our fellow Tibetan Shugden practioneer have had to endure as a result of this ban. I am very offended by your remarks and the tactics with which you presented yourself. You come across as having compromised your faith for little education and help you have received. So much for your sence of character and values.

It is understandable that you feel grateful to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government for providing for your education and bringing you up. However have you ever thought of how they were able to do so? We Tibetans came to India as refugees with nothing. With the geneorsity and kind help of the Indian governement, foreign agencies and private sponsors Tibetans were able to estblish schools, monasteries, hospitals, settlements and variety of services.

As a Tibetan Shugden practioneer, I am very active and have good contacts all over and All the people I know thank that the protests are happening and that voices are being heard. I have no idea which tibetan shugden practioneers you are talking to.

Guru

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2008, 11:11:58 PM »
Maryjanela, ho-hum, open threat. maybe it works in your org, can you please tell me what else happens.......

Beggar la, global phenomenon was, not any more after the protest. some weirdo's have flushed it down. Everyone is talking about the rift and the violence of the red robed monks and nuns. people who are wary of the rise of Buddhism are celebrating and tossing. By the way i have no superior complex like some of you, neither am i a lama nor a raciest. I am just speaking what some of us know, hear and see. Not on anyone's order.

My tibetan friend crouching tiger(very chinese), sorry if i have offended. But let me remind you once again, 1st i am tibetan and a shugden follower. i cannot ignore and lie. whatever i am is due to HH the dalai lama and TGIE. i am not going to be a sorkam, not going to eat and shit on the same plate. i am not going to behave like dogs( i am not saying some are).
And a word of advice to you and all tibetans reading this. Don't be too blinded by faith. Religion can be a tool for manipulation. Be careful and khaeboo. see who is behind and organizing these protest. some of us can smell foul. to me this is beyond religion. I am just warning all before it's too late.
Plus look at all directions. Why just blame the Dalai lama and Bhod-Shung. They have to think about the greater benefit of all tibetans, tibet and buddha dharma. do you want Tibetans nyingmas monks fighting with gelugs and sakyas with kagyu. Do you want Tibetan Buddhist school to be fighting like the sunnis and shias(just a bad ex). I am sure no one would like that. I just wish HH the Dalai Lama and TGIE could have handled this issue more delicately. Maybe you can say i am not religious.

to all the westerners(shugden and non), if you have helped. thanks. with your support and with my effort i am what i am, a liberal thinker. Thanks again.

When i was small. me and my village friends used to go to different monastries for wangs and religous ceremonies. we use to bring tsi-ries, mani-ri-boos and pictures of lamas. But my grandfather never allowd me to take some of them to the alter room. though i was a kid i found it really sectarian.

may peace prevail on earth.

in dharma,
guru



maryjane

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Re: Move on Guru ...
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2008, 02:43:33 AM »
being diplomatic at a time like this is equivalent to aiding and abhetting a power hungry political leader who fears opposition and stifles it while his faithful people (sheep) are misled by him (shepard).  Pick a side and stick to it....sitting on the fence and being diplomatic... for what?  The Dalai has said people who practice this deity shouldn't come to his teachings, and that the majority shouldn't associate with the (now new found untouchable breed of) Tibetans whom HE created.  Wake up! Gratitude for food, shelter and clothing is owed not just to the Dalai and the TGIE but many anonymous donors and average citizens. This does not call for narrow thinking.   

You have a lot of questions - ask your Guru, go to the source of the problem, the one who started it all, His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama. Tenzing Gyatso, is the man who continues to give a flood of reasons to curb a practice in attempts to eliminate it. This problem is a page out of a history book, plain and simple.  One difference? It is not in ancient Tibet or ancient times anymore.  These are modern times. The people will rise up against religious intolerance and oppression all over the world.  The people will unite and peacefully protest against faith based abuses and discriminations.  The people will speak up against hypocrasies.  The people will unite for religious freedom.  No amount of venting and frustations by you can stop the people. The movement has begun. Power of the people, for the people, by the people.   

The law protects the rights of ALL citizens, not just the Dalai Lama.  No one is above the law, not even the Dalai.  See you in court ..... as in ... try to follow the court procedures in New Delhi, India as it gains momentum. This is unprecedented in the history of Tibet and the Dalai.  A spiritual and temporal leader being taken to the court of law by his own people, and having to answer to his actions and policies. It will be very difficult for upholders of the law to ignore that his smiles charm but his actions harm. 

What you choose to think and write in this forum is entirely up to you.  However, have a word with 'your' Guru, if you can; the source of this mess to help end your confusion. He has forced people to pick sides. He has initiated the disintegration and denigration of large buddhist monastic universities and monks. He has surrounded himself with controversies and split his own community. Looking the other way and making excuses for his behaviors and attitudes is no longer an option.  The international community has now become involved.   

The people have spoken. The winds of change have begun.  Good luck!!! 

crouching tiger

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2008, 03:31:51 AM »
Guru,

You are entittled to make your own choices and I am glad that you as you put it, do not shit in the plate you eat from. Similarly, many of us Shugden practioners feel the same way about our practice, the kindness of our gurus and the path that our revered lamas have shown us. Are we then not entitled to defend our faith? Or is that right also strictly for those that support the Dalai Lama?

Time and time again we Shugden practioners have been scapegoated, outcast and blamed for all that goes wrong. We have been accused of siding with the Chinese, harming the cause of Tibet and endangering the life of the dalai lama. Enough is enough! we have tolerated the dalai lama and TGIE's abuses for well over a decade. The recent splitting that the dalai lama started in the monasteries in South India is what broke the camel's back. Guru, you need to realize that abuses and indignities can only be tolerated for so long. We refuse to be further victimized by the dalai lama and his government.

If the dalai lama is doing the right thing then why is he hiding behind samdong's robes and shifting the blame on others. He was the one who very aggressively stated that he was going to finish what the fifth dalai lama started. Or is he going to claim amensia about that too. We have numerous videos, taped messages and written documentation that prove he spearheaded the whole thing, and made it an issue for all tibetans.  At some point he will have to do some explaining for his actions.

Guru do not mix up issues, we are solely protesting to demand our right to worship freely. Shugden practionees have always supported the Tibetan cause for freedom. Many Shugden practioners fought for a free Tibet, ensured the safe escape of the dalai lama and served the Tibetan people in a variety of different capacities. Do not for one moment imply that we harm the tibetan cause.

Lineageholder

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2008, 06:53:22 AM »
Dear Guru,

Don't be too blinded by faith. Religion can be a tool for manipulation.

Yes, we know who is using it for this purpose right now, don't we?  Because of blind faith, many Tibetans and Westerners unquestioningly accept what the Dalai Lama says as if it were some quotation from Lord Buddha's Sutras and Tantras.  Even Buddha Shakyamuni advised us to think for ourselves and not to dogmatically follow the view of a particularly Teacher or tradition without good reasons.  Independent thought is not a characteristic I've observed in those who are following HHDL's view.

Please don't be blind to the truth by identification with Tibetan nationality. I'm sorry to say this, but Buddha's teachings are more important than any political cause or national issue.  You are not inherently Tibetan; if you die today (and Buddha always reminds us to meditate on death) you will no longer be Tibetan or even human.  There are no guarantees in this samsaric world.  Where will you be in your next life?  Only the practise of holy Dharma that the Dalai Lama is now destroying can protect you now and in your future lives.  Nationalistic issues pale in comparison to this.  If this human life is easily lost, it goes without saying that the cause of Tibet is also easily lost.  Be a Dharma practitioner first and foremost - if you've got time you can be a Tibetan as well.  This is your choice, if course.

The Dalai Lama's actions are causing the destruction of Buddhadharma in this world; some of us are determined not to let this happen.  This is why the WSS is organising these demonstrations; there is no other reason.  No one I know who has been involved in these demonstrations has anything personally against the Dalai Lama but his destructive actions have to be stopped.  Please wake up to the truth before it's too late.

cheyenne

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Re: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2008, 01:24:07 PM »
Take a look at the Western Shugden Society Web page http://petition.westernshugdensociety.org/results.php

Over 180 Tibetans from the US and from India just signed the petition today

Cheyenne