Author Topic: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang  (Read 27433 times)

Lineageholder

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2011, 02:25:57 PM »

I don't understand this point though: "Another part of the agreement was to confirm that Lama Yeshe was the Spiritual Director of Manjushri Centre. The community did not want to separate from Lama Yeshe, only to separate from FPMT."

Lama Yeshe founded FPMT so he IS FPMT. He is the spiritual director of FPMT. It's like saying one of the NKT centres wants to separate from NKT but not Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

If they wanted Lama Yeshe to remain the Spiritual Director but they did not wish to listen to him, why ask him to stay as Spiritual Director. Doesn't make sense to me.


This says to me that they regarded FPMT and Lama Yeshe as different.  They didn't agree with the management of the tradition, which was being strongly influenced by Peter Kedge, but they wanted to follow the teachings.  They wanted to secure their future as a spiritual community so that they would be free to follow the teachings.

The right thing for FPMT to have done, IMHO, would be to put to the community the reasons for selling the building and then let them choose.  Neither of these things were done, as far as I can see.  There didn't appear to a spiritual reason for disbanding the community and selling their building, I'm not surprised they didn't accept it.

I saw a picture recently of the FPMT management commitee, and Peter Kedge is still there, so obviously both Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa trust him: http://bit.ly/eAbDmm

Helena

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2011, 04:03:40 PM »
If you wish to view Geshe Kelsang and Lama Yeshe as brilliant teachers but still ordinary beings, then the fallout and negative circumstances are possible. And it did occur.

If you wish to view them as attained beings, then there was no fallout but a play of magical karmic illusions to subdue the mind and purify the circumstances so their works can grow massive.

(The viewer could or could not be attained is added into the equation of course)

The combinations of the above two are endless.

It depends who you are and what view you choose?

I am with Mana on this point. Even wrote something along the same lines as Mana did in the DS FB link.

I do believe that our Lamas and Gurus take on much more than just teaching us Dharma. And I sincerely believe that our Lamas and Guru will do whatever that is necessary to purify our collective or individual karma or negative circumstances for their Dharma work to really grow.

As it is with a single person, the accumulated karma over beginningless time is already bad enough. Imagine the collective karma of various individuals in a centre or spiritual organization - how much more purification would be needed to make the Dharma to really grow and benefit more people?

Since reading up on HH Trijang Dorje Chang's bio, I firmly believe that highly attained teachers shoulder so much burden in the name of Dharma. And they do that and more because the whole point is to make Dharma grow and help as many people as possible. It never about the money, power or fame. They are all beyond that.

It is all about how they can bring the Dharma to the masses out there.

Btw, WB - I am also inclined to agree with you - I don't believe Lama Yeshe is anything conventional. In fact, Lama Yeshe is so well adored and remembered because he is anything but conventional. He strikes me as someone who will stick to his faith and practice no matter.
Helena

beggar

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2011, 04:44:45 PM »

This says to me that they regarded FPMT and Lama Yeshe as different.  They didn't agree with the management of the tradition, which was being strongly influenced by Peter Kedge, but they wanted to follow the teachings. 

It is sad to hear this but from my own experiences and seeing the experiences of fellow Dharma friends in other centres, this actually does happen more commonly than we think. I have heard several cases of people kicking out their resident teachers or laypeople trying to assume control of a centre. Ironic and perhaps a little tragic that they do this because they think they are defending or helping the Dharma in this way and "following the teachings" as you say.

Actually, they are just splitting up a spiritual community - schism - what part of the teachings encourage THAT? I have never understood how someone can be happy to see the division of a spiritual community and feel pleased about a separation.

beggar

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2011, 04:47:51 PM »
I think the question to ask is how a student of both Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang would have / should have reacted to this? This is a common dilemma - both are your teachers, so whoever you choose to follow (either to stay and kick one out, or to leave with the one who is being kicked out), you betray one of your teachers.

(sounds like a familiar dilemma? DS/ Lamas/ Dalai Lama...?!)

I have to say I would not know how to act in this situation and I don't know how to answer this. Any thoughts?

Lineageholder

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2011, 10:12:56 PM »
It is sad to hear this but from my own experiences and seeing the experiences of fellow Dharma friends in other centres, this actually does happen more commonly than we think. I have heard several cases of people kicking out their resident teachers or laypeople trying to assume control of a centre. Ironic and perhaps a little tragic that they do this because they think they are defending or helping the Dharma in this way and "following the teachings" as you say.

Actually, they are just splitting up a spiritual community - schism - what part of the teachings encourage THAT? I have never understood how someone can be happy to see the division of a spiritual community and feel pleased about a separation.

It seems to me that, at that time, the FPMT were not following the Dharma - they had a different view and intention.  What one always has to do is try to be true to the Dharma.  Harming others is not Dharma.  If they really were involved in some nefarious activities to fund the growth of the tradition, that would be wrong.  The Dharma says "cherish others" and selling someone's home without even asking them doesn't seem to be cherishing others, whatever your reasons.  Sometimes there are good reasons to separate from a spiritual community (if, for example, they become spiritually degenerate).  I don't think it's the case that everyone should just accept the views of one person, especially if those views lead to non-Dharma, so for what it's worth, I believe this separation was very necessary as it has been necessary to separate from the Dalai Lama for similar reasons.

WoselTenzin

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2011, 02:23:37 AM »
If you wish to view Geshe Kelsang and Lama Yeshe as brilliant teachers but still ordinary beings, then the fallout and negative circumstances are possible. And it did occur.

If you wish to view them as attained beings, then there was no fallout but a play of magical karmic illusions to subdue the mind and purify the circumstances so their works can grow massive.


I have read all that was said by everyone. I concur with what Mana has said.  If we believe that both Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang are attained beings, we will trust that their actions even if perceived as seemingly negative is for the benefit of the big picture and for the growth of Buddhism in the west.  I think it would be difficult for us to guess their intentions at the point of time when the event happened as it would be beyond our ordinary understanding.  (ie why would two attained beings if we truly believe they are have a fallout).

However, if we look at how NKT and FPMT has grown and brought Buddhism to so many people all around the world since then, we can conclude that both Geshe Kelsang and Lama Yeshe did what they did with pure intentions.  Otherwise, their Dharma protector, Dorje Shugden would never allow that to happen.  Dorje Shugden will never support the growth of a Tsongkapa lineage organisation if the motivation of it's spiritual leader is for anything else except the spread of pure Dharma.       

Mana

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2011, 03:55:31 AM »
Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang never met up again or were seen in public since their split right up until Lama Yeshe's death. The bottom line is they did split.

During those difficult times, Peter Kedge and the FPMT group consulted Lama Yeshe on everything. They wouldn't simply make moves without Lama's knowing. Those days Lama Yeshe and FPMT were not very big. Lama Yeshe had control of everything. Everything must be approved of by Lama. People blame Peter Kedge and his people for being the causes of the split. Obviously Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa did not believe Peter was to blame as he is still with FPMT. Now if those people back then are saying it is Peter Kedge's fault, then they are opposing Lama Yeshe, their original teacher. Obviously from Lama Yeshe's actions he does not believe Peter was at fault. Voting to take away a centre whether it will close or not just seems opposing to the founding dharma teacher.

If you are teacher A and you invite B. B the guest teacher wants to break away because A is doing things with the centre B doesn't like. Should B influence A's group and separate? Should B convince A's group to separate at all?  Or the thing to do is B completely leaves, starts his own centre taking nothing from A's place including ppl. Not threatening A to court, but let A do as he likes with his own centre. If A's is doing negative things, it is his centre. And also encouraging the ppl to remain with A as they have made a dharmic teacher-student relationship already. I am not concluding but writing out thoughts. What does everyone think?

(Afterthought-Some ppl view Geshe Kelsang as a ordinary person who makes mistakes and organized the protests. Some ppl view him as a Buddha that cannot make mistakes. Either way he has brought Buddhism to many and he has recieved much criticism and paid a heavy price for his strong stance on being loyal to his gurus and practice. For this you must admire the man.)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 06:57:52 AM by Mana »

Mana

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2011, 12:04:44 PM »
Geshe Kelsang, Lama Yeshe and Geshe Jampa Tekchok..in the beginning...

WisdomBeing

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2011, 04:49:23 PM »
Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang never met up again or were seen in public since their split right up until Lama Yeshe's death. The bottom line is they did split.

During those difficult times, Peter Kedge and the FPMT group consulted Lama Yeshe on everything. They wouldn't simply make moves without Lama's knowing. Those days Lama Yeshe and FPMT were not very big. Lama Yeshe had control of everything. Everything must be approved of by Lama. People blame Peter Kedge and his people for being the causes of the split. Obviously Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa did not believe Peter was to blame as he is still with FPMT. Now if those people back then are saying it is Peter Kedge's fault, then they are opposing Lama Yeshe, their original teacher. Obviously from Lama Yeshe's actions he does not believe Peter was at fault. Voting to take away a centre whether it will close or not just seems opposing to the founding dharma teacher.

I don't know much about protocol but for me, it is simply that if Lama Yeshe was my Guru, I would have to trust everything he says and follow his instructions, regardless of whether I understand what his instructions are. If I was to follow certain instructions and not others, it shows that I don't truly respect him. All that I have read on Guru Devotion says that I have to follow all the way. If I think that Lama Yeshe as my Guru can be wrong over something, then he can be wrong over other things. So how can I do the practices my Guru was to give me yet I do not agree in how he wants to run the Dharma centre. Whether Lama Yeshe wants to dissolve the centre or not would be his holy prerogative. That's my humble view.

Quote

If you are teacher A and you invite B. B the guest teacher wants to break away because A is doing things with the centre B doesn't like. Should B influence A's group and separate? Should B convince A's group to separate at all?  Or the thing to do is B completely leaves, starts his own centre taking nothing from A's place including ppl. Not threatening A to court, but let A do as he likes with his own centre. If A's is doing negative things, it is his centre. And also encouraging the ppl to remain with A as they have made a dharmic teacher-student relationship already. I am not concluding but writing out thoughts. What does everyone think?

(Afterthought-Some ppl view Geshe Kelsang as a ordinary person who makes mistakes and organized the protests. Some ppl view him as a Buddha that cannot make mistakes. Either way he has brought Buddhism to many and he has recieved much criticism and paid a heavy price for his strong stance on being loyal to his gurus and practice. For this you must admire the man.)

My personal view is that I think that it is not ethical for teacher B to break away with teacher A's students. Again, that's my humble opinion. For a student to threaten a Guru (any Guru for that matter, let alone MY Guru) with legal action contravenes every concept I have about Guru Devotion.

Again, as I have stated elsewhere, I do respect what Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has achieved in building up the NKT organisation worldwide. I do believe that Dorje Shugden is the reason behind NKT's growth and i have nothing to say against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.



Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Lineageholder

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2011, 11:54:28 PM »
I don't know much about protocol but for me, it is simply that if Lama Yeshe was my Guru, I would have to trust everything he says and follow his instructions, regardless of whether I understand what his instructions are. If I was to follow certain instructions and not others, it shows that I don't truly respect him. All that I have read on Guru Devotion says that I have to follow all the way.

This way of thinking shows how the Dalai Lama has been able to encourage people to perform non-Dharma actions such as destroying statues of Dorje Shugden and ostracising his followers - blind devotion without questioning whether the actions are correct or not.  Regardless of your view of a Teacher, the ultimate arbiter of what is appropriate is the Dharma, and if person goes against the Dharma, you cannot do what they request.  We must use our wisdom and act appropriately, in accordance with convention.

If your Guru asked you to murder someone, would you do it?  Blindly doing what a Guru says is not Guru devotion and is not Dharma.

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My personal view is that I think that it is not ethical for teacher B to break away with teacher A's students. Again, that's my humble opinion. For a student to threaten a Guru (any Guru for that matter, let alone MY Guru) with legal action contravenes every concept I have about Guru Devotion.

Again, as I have stated elsewhere, I do respect what Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has achieved in building up the NKT organisation worldwide. I do believe that Dorje Shugden is the reason behind NKT's growth and i have nothing to say against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

If a Teacher is performing non-virtuous actions, and legal action will remedy the situation, then of course it's right to take legal action.  No doubt you disagree with Kundeling Rinpoche did in taking the Dalai Lama to court, but what he did was perfectly right and appropriate for the situation.

On the matter of 'Teacher B breaking away with Teacher A's students', this is not what happened at all.  The residential community of Manjushri Institute decided, following a democratic vote, to break away from the FPMT because, under FPMT, the community had no future anyway.  They still expressed their wish for Lama Yeshe to be their Spiritual Director so no one was leaving Lama Yeshe.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2011, 12:39:44 AM »
I'm still trying to wrap my head around Guru Devotion. From many places i have read, such as this article below, the student is supposed to see their Guru as the Buddha himself. Buddha himself said that if we think of him as a Buddha, we will receive the blessings of a Buddha and if we think if him as an ordinary man, we will receive the blessings of an ordinary man.

I highlighted the part in red below to draw attention to the concept of if one's Guru acts in a seemingly incorrect form.

Are you saying Guru Devotion is wrong or can be selective?

http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=373

From the Introduction of Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey's short commentary on the Fifty Verses:

The Fifty Verses of Guru Devotion [Skt: Gurupancashika; Tib: Lama Nga-chu-pa] was written in about the first century B.C. by Ashvagosha. This Indian poet was known by many names—such as Aryashura, Matriceta, Patriceta, Matichitra, and Bhavideva—and was a contemporary of King Kaniska of the Kusan Dynasty. Having previously been a strong non-Buddhist believer, he became an extremely devout follower of the Buddha’s path and wrote many works on its various aspects.

Shakyamuni Buddha lived about four centuries before Ashvagosha. He taught sutras dealing with meditative practices for attaining liberation and enlightenment and, in the form of Buddha Vajradhara, tantras covering speedier but more dangerous methods for achieving this latter goal.

Success in following either the sutra or the tantra path to enlightenment depends solely upon your guru devotion, as Lord Buddha indicated in the Lotus Sutra (Saddharmapundarikasutra) and in the Kyedor Shägyü Dorje’i G’ur, an explanatory work to the Hevajra tantra, where he stated that in future times of degeneration he would take the form of gurus and therefore, at such times, gurus should be as respected as buddhas because they are their living representatives.

Guru devotion involves both thought and action. The most important thing is to develop the total conviction that your guru is a buddha—this is a prerequisite for receiving any insight. Whether you are aiming to attain liberation in order to benefit mainly yourself or reach the perfected state of a fully enlightened buddha in order to enlighten all others, your guru can show you the way only if he himself has already gained these achievements. If you doubt your guru’s competence and ability to guide you, your practices will be extremely unstable and you will be unable to make any concrete progress. You must have full confidence that it is possible to become enlightened, that your guru is living proof of this, and that by following the Buddha’s teachings as your guru instructs, you can achieve the same. Only then will it be possible for you to gain any real benefit from your practices.

Seeing only good qualities in your guru, therefore, is the way to develop these qualities yourself. Normally most people are blind to their own shortcomings, while the faults of others shine out clearly. But if you did not possess these same faults yourself, you would be unable to recognize them in others. If there are two pieces of fruit, one ripe and one rotten, and the person next to you takes the ripe one, it is only because of your own greed that you accuse him of being greedy and selfish. If you were unattached to the fruit, it would not matter to you which one he took—you would simply see him as having taken a piece of fruit.

Likewise, if you can train yourself to see only good qualities and never any faults in your guru, this positive outlook will come to pervade, amplify and reflect your own state of mind. As we all have buddha nature within us—the clear, uncontaminated state of pure mind established without any true independent existence—seeing our guru as a buddha gives us the possibility of activating and realizing our own buddha nature. Seeing only our guru’s faults merely reinforces our own shortcomings and negative attitudes; seeing only his perfection enables us to attain the perfection of buddhahood ourselves. Therefore, one of the main practices of guru yoga, particularly in tantra, is to realize the inseparability of our own mind with our guru, the buddhas and our meditation deity, which is a pure manifestation of the enlightened mind. Thus, guru devotion is the root of all attainments.

If your guru acts in a seemingly unenlightened manner and you feel it would be hypocritical to think him a buddha, you should remember that your own opinions are unreliable and the apparent faults you see may be simply a reflection of your own deluded state of mind. Also, you should think that if your guru acted in a completely perfect manner, he would be inaccessible and you would be unable to relate to him. It is therefore out of your guru’s great compassion that he may show apparent flaws. This is part of his skillful means in order for him to be able to teach you; he is mirroring your own faults. Therefore, check within and learn from him how to remove your shortcomings. If you are only intent on criticizing your guru, he will never be able to benefit you.

It was Buddha Vajradhara himself who said that your guru is to be seen as a buddha. Therefore, if you have faith and take refuge in the Buddhist teachings, you will try to understand what Vajradhara meant by this.

Buddhas exert a great positive influence on the world in the same way that the sun does. But just as a magnifying glass is needed to focus the rays of the sun in order for tinder to catch fire, so too is a guru required to focus the buddhas’ virtuous conduct into your mind-stream to inspire you to follow the path. Thus, as living examples representing the buddhas, gurus carry on the work of all the enlightened beings, acting as an accessible focal point for your practices so that you can gain buddhahood yourself.

Through devotion to your guru, showing him respect and making offerings, you accumulate the merit necessary to attain liberation from all suffering. Such service is done not to benefit your guru but for your own sake. When you plant seeds in a field, it is not to benefit the earth—you’re the one who harvests the crops. Therefore, with the proper devotional attitude towards your guru—seeing him as a buddha—the more positive energy you exert in his direction, the closer you come to buddhahood yourself. Likewise, if you hate your guru and generate negative energy towards him, you are deliberately distancing yourself from his enlightened state and freedom from pain. As a result you bring intense suffering upon yourself. Therefore, if you see faults in your guru and tend to belittle him, remember that your opinions are unreliable and that only unhappiness can result from despising the states of happiness he represents.

Remembering your guru’s kindness to teach you during this degenerate age after Shakyamuni Buddha has passed away, you must develop loving respect for him. He teaches you despite your delusions and does not force you to undergo the hardships that many disciples had to endure in the past. He gives you initiations and oral teachings and transmits the unbroken lineages that come from the Buddha himself. He inspires you to attain his state and helps you materially when you need it. Without loving respect for your guru you will never become enlightened; if you don’t respect the state of buddhahood he represents, how can you hope to attain it?

The various aspects of devoting yourself to your guru by means of thought have been taught extensively in such texts as the Gandavyuha Sutra and their scriptural references are detailed in Je Tsongkhapa’s Lam-rim Chen-mo.

Ashvagosha’s Fifty Verses is the most comprehensive summary of devoting yourself to your guru by means of action. Its scriptural sources are a wide range of tantric texts, including the Guhyasamaja, Kalachakra, Chakrasamvara, Vajradakini, and Vajrahridayalamkara tantras. The specific tantric sources for each verse are given in Lama Tsongkhapa’s Fulfillment of All Hopes, his commentary on this text.

As important as guru devotion is for practitioners of sutra, it is even more essential and more emphasized in the study and practice of tantra . This is because tantric techniques are extremely difficult and complicated. If practiced correctly, they can bring you buddhahood within your lifetime, but if not, they can be very dangerous and bring you extremely dire consequences. Therefore, the direct personal guidance of a guru is indispensable.

Since the Fifty Verses outlines specifically how disciples should act with their guru, it is customarily taught before a tantric initiation is given. Once a guru-disciple relationship has been established, disciples are taught guru devotion and the common path of renunciation, bodhicitta, and correct view of emptiness. Then, after receiving the proper initiations, they can be led gradually through the stages of tantra on the firm foundation of guru devotion and the three principal aspects of the path.

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

beggar

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2011, 02:41:13 PM »
If your Guru asked you to murder someone, would you do it?  Blindly doing what a Guru says is not Guru devotion and is not Dharma.

.....

If a Teacher is performing non-virtuous actions, and legal action will remedy the situation, then of course it's right to take legal action.  No doubt you disagree with Kundeling Rinpoche did in taking the Dalai Lama to court, but what he did was perfectly right and appropriate for the situation.

This is why it is always so important to thoroughly check a teacher before you take someone as your teacher. A real teacher would never ask you to do something that would truly you or others harm. Once you take someone as your teacher, it is with the faith and the complete understanding that he can take you all the way to enlightenment, so you follow his instruction, even if you might not understand it at the time. Something helpful is to check the results of all the things that your lama has asked you to do - you will find that it is always beneficial, so when you come up against something that you don't understand now, you contemplate: has your lama ever done anything to harm you? If not, then why would he be hurting you now? Or is there a reason for what he is asking you to do?

Lineageholder

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2011, 08:49:33 PM »
This is why it is always so important to thoroughly check a teacher before you take someone as your teacher. A real teacher would never ask you to do something that would truly you or others harm.

I totally agree, but the possibility is left open for the Guru to ask something that is against the Dharma.  As it says in 50 Verses of Guru Devotion:

Quote
(24) (Disciples) having great sense should obey the words of their guru joyfully and with
enthusiasm. If you lack the knowledge or ability (to do what he says), explain in
(polite) words why you cannot (comply).

This verse says that highly intelligent disciples should listen to the words, or orders, of their guru with great pleasure, or bliss; they should hear whatever he has to say with much enthusiasm and perseverance. Whenever your guru speaks, listen with pleasure. If you can do what he asks, if you can act in accordance with his words, you should accept, but if it’s too hard, then explain your difficulty politely. Don’t ignore what he’s asking, but tell him intelligently why you can’t do it. If your guru tells you to do something that you feel goes against your three types of morality, you can avoid doing it, but explain intelligently and unemotionally why.

One of the Jataka Tales is about a previous life of Guru Shakyamuni when he was born as a Brahmin disciple. The Brahmin teacher told his disciples to go out and steal for him. His logic was that since the universe was made by Brahma, if, as sons of Brahma, Brahmins take things, it’s no more stealing than if a son takes things belonging to his father—since they are his own possessions, he’s not stealing. However, the disciple who was the previous life of Buddha didn’t go. His teacher said, “You don’t seem to like me.” Guru Shakyamuni replied, “Theft is at no time religious,” and intelligently explained many ways in which stealing wasn’t good. Later he became one of this guru’s best disciples. Intelligence is always stressed as one of the very best qualities a disciple can have.

As I said, the Dharma is the arbiter of what should be done and what should not be done.

I do think it's possible to rely upon a Teacher who is not qualified and to be taken advantage of - to be led into non-virtuous actions..  Tsem Tulku says that this happened to many people in the past and I wonder if it is still happening to some.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2011, 09:45:15 PM »
LineageHolder,

Quote
I do think it's possible to rely upon a Teacher who is not qualified and to be taken advantage of - to be led into non-virtuous actions..  Tsem Tulku says that this happened to many people in the past and I wonder if it is still happening to some.

Of course it is possible to rely on a teacher who is not qualified, which is why Beggar said that we must check a teacher out first to make sure he IS qualified. For example, we should check to make sure the teacher comes from an authentic spiritual lineage and that this spiritual lineage is recognised and unbroken - better even if it's traceable back to Shakyamuni Buddha. In the Vajrayana tradition, I understand that a qualified spiritual teacher is the most important because from him or her, all attainments will arise.

As there are so many Mahasiddhas who manifest in the most unlikely forms, I guess there will always be people who challenge if they are qualified and in the end whether the teacher is qualified or not will be reflected in the consistency of the teacher's character and the results of his life achievements. For example, Lama Yeshe's life achievements are to be greatly admired.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Robert Thomas

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2011, 09:12:53 AM »
There has been some discussion about the possible motives regarding what happened at Manjushri Institute. As I was not there I don't feel in any position to comment, although knowing some of the people who were part of the so called, "Priory Group" I can say that they are some of the most gentle and humble people I know; people who I could not possibly attribute any malicious motivations to, if you met them you would also know how silly and out of proportion some of the speculations on this matter are.

Anyway, in Geshe Kelsang's web discussions back in 1997 he discussed this point a little, I quote both the question and the answer, it seems very clear from Geshe-la's answer that there was no disagreement between Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang regarding the main purpose of their lives, to be Qualified Spiritual Guides:

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Question: By the way, didn't you get to the position you have today through the kindness of the late Lama Yeshe and the FMPT? Trying to criticize Kopan Monastery and Je Lama Zopa is a strange way to repay that isn't it?

Answer from Geshe Kelsang: I have already said that I never criticise these other Lamas. Instead of this I have great sympathy for them because they have had to stop their daily practice of Dorje Shugden, which is their commitment. They have no choice about this. Day and night I pray how wonderful it would be if these Lamas could have religious freedom. Because we all are disciples of HH Trijang Rinpoche, these Lamas are my vajra brothers, we have the same spiritual father. The main reason why I have involved myself in this debate, and why I am telling the truth about the Dalai Lama, is in the hope that his mind will change and he will give these Lamas and other practitioners the freedom to worship in the way they wish. It is my choice to help in this way.

Do you know what was Lama Yeshe’s intention in organizing Dharma Centres in the west and inviting Tibetan teachers? It seems that you do not understand this. His intention was to spread Buddhadharma throughout western countries, and with this intention he invited me to come to Manjushri Institute in England. He then requested HH Trijang Rinpoche to ask me to come to England. Finally, at Trijang Rinpoche’s request I accepted this invitation. I arrived in England in 1977 and since that time I have worked very hard to spread Buddhadharma and can show very good results. In this way I have fulfilled Lama Yeshe’s wishes. Your comment makes no sense, so I think you need to improve your understanding about Lama Yeshe's main intention.