Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang

[Robert Thomas]

Two other things may also be helpful to mention. The first is that after Conishead priory became independent from the FPMT Lama Zopa taught several times (the last in1989) at Manjushri Institute. The second is that Lama Yeshe's photo remained by the teaching throne in the original Gompa until it was refurbished inthe year 2000.

I think both these points also illustrate that separating from the (young and quite different) organisation that the FPMT was then and splitting from Lama Yeshe were not the same thing.

Also we talk now from a position where  FPMT and Dharma groups in general are well established and understood. I'm not sure it makes sense to judge actions towards these groups then by the standards and meaning we understand today.

[thaimonk]

I have not lost respect for both these teachers, but as humans everyone makes errors. What is important are not the errors but their hard work, dedication and sincere efforts towards bringing Dharma to so many. Obviously they both do this tirelessly.

Lama Yeshe was one of the most instrumental teachers bringing dharma to outside Tibetans and so kindly bringing Geshe Kelsang to the world stage. We owe so much to Lama Yeshe. We owe so much to these great teachers who spend their lives for others. They of course are not the only ones, there are many other teachers doing the same. We should respect them all and their individual contributions. We are on the same side after all.

[DSFriend]

I have not had the privilege to receive the dharma directly from any of these two great lama. But just as you've said, these two lamas's works and names have gone worldwide.

[triesa]

Thoughts:

1. If Lama Yeshe invited Geshe Kelsang, wouldn't it be impolite for Geshe Kelsang to try to take over Manjushri or counter Lama Yeshe's wishes? After all Lama invited Geshe to his centre in the first place. Is it not wrong for Manjushri students to petition a guest lama to stay over your founding lama's instructions?

2. If the students petitioned Geshe to stay in the centre, shouldn't Geshe advise them to listen to Lama Yeshe their spiritual director and founder of the centre?

3. What proof is there that Lama Yeshe's group was having suspect dealings in Hong Kong? This is what one side claims is it not? 

4. What actual proof is there that FPMT managers engaged in illegal dealings? What were the illegal dealings?

Lama Yeshe was brilliant. Geshe Kelsang is brilliant. Can these two brilliant teachers have engaged in actions that are described above. If either parties tell their side, it will swing to their own teachers would it not?

Why would Lama Yeshe allow illegal dealings in Hong Kong and then try to sell Manjushri building to fund it? Why would Geshe Kelsang even consider a petition for him to stay when the centre and it's people do not 'belong' to him? If he wanted to start a new centre, he should not take anyone from Manjushri with him at all to respect Lama Yeshe as their teacher? If Lama Yeshe engaged in illegal dealings, then the whole foundation of FPMT falls flat. No one gains attainments?

I wish so much both teachers remained friends, close and worked together. The impact is too great.
 

It is sad to see so much internal fighting, differences in opinions when all what Lama Yeshe wanted and even Geshe Kelsang (I am sure), was to spread the buddha's teachings to as many as possible.

The Manifestation of the split in the community in Manjushri Center, in my humble opinion, is a mirroring effect of the minds of the students then.

Right or wrong, for better or for worse, it had happened. But I hope this episode in Manjushri center serves a great reminder to all Dharma centers in the world that, we as students should adopt a one lama and one center policy. If we have chosen to take refuge in a lama after checking the teacher out, we should follow him ALL THE WAY.

This is to avoid issues such as greed, jealously, different style of management or even to the way the teachings is disseminated from different lamas. Our minds, at our level and particularly at this time and age, are hard to be tamed. We sometimes find it hard just to follow one lama's instruction, not to mention, different lamas.

Thus, my opinion is to .........stick to one lama, one center.

[Mana]

Good and well thought out posts here.

Mana

[Helena]

The growth, rise or demise of any centre is a reflection of the students AND NOT the teachers. I firmly believe that.

So, whatever changes that were going on reflect what was happening within the students' collective mind and karma.

I believe that both of Gurus are Enlightened Beings - Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang. These Gurus will do what is best for Dharma to establish in that place or centre.

As Dharma takes priority, Gurus will know what to do best for the students and what's most beneficial from the Dharma's standpoint.

In any case, look at how both of the organizations have grown over the years. The benefit these two organizations bring to others, by making Dharma accessible to those around them is undeniable.

[thaimonk]

The growth is there, but also nice to understand the beginnings. They are great masters and also human beings that made mistakes as well as spectacular decisions.

Both their mistakes and their decisions brought them to where they are today. Their past is neither good nor bad, but just history. All is like a illusional play in a theatre.

Ultimately, whatever we want to perceive as good or bad will always be subjective in the greater sense of the word.

[dsiluvu]

Triessa I cannot agree with you more. It also appears that Lama Yeshe unfortunately have some very ungrateful students who decided to jump ship just cause they were not happy with someone...

If this was the attitude with a teacher we've taken refuge in, then imagine the attitude we would have with other people, with our Dharma practice? It is like saying this practice is not working for me so I'm going to switch. People like this would destroy tantra and they also create a trend that it is okay to swap Guru's like changing your socks!
That it is completely okay to take refuge and then be disloyal to one's guru. If you really cannot follow your lama and wish to part, then you apologize and part quietly. Not like this, where you take votes and ask your Lama to hand over his center to another. It is not only so bad in terms of Guru Devotion practice, on a worldly sense people would she it as completely unethical, quite a huge betrayal or stab in the back!

Yes this is clearly a reflection of the students mind and I can now understand why Lama Yeshe the current incarnation, Lama Osel cannot return to teach his students in Fpmt. It is the group karma of so many broken samayas, un-repaired from the students side that will prevent them and future students from their Lama and the teachings.

Now Lama Osel needs to find other skillful methods to spread the Dharma...hence he is learning to film! Can't wait for him to produce his 1st movie!

[kurava]

The growth is there, but also nice to understand the beginnings. They are great masters and also human beings that made mistakes as well as spectacular decisions.

Both their mistakes and their decisions brought them to where they are today. Their past is neither good nor bad, but just history. All is like a illusional play in a theatre.

Ultimately, whatever we want to perceive as good or bad will always be subjective in the greater sense of the word.

As they both are great highly attained masters, even if they made "mistakes" they had managed to transform them into the path and made their respective centres grow.

We can't be sure that  all the decisions/actions taken will always be correct , what I learned is how to turn  "mistakes" into positive force with a virtuous motivation.

[vajralight]

Breaking away because the directors are involved in illegal activities, dealing drugs in buddhist centers is not a negative action. Wanting to protect the reputation of Buddhism is not a negative action. Geshe Kelsang thought he had no choice but to seperate from FPMT , still wanted to remain with Lama Yeshe, but not with a drug dealing organisation.

Quote:"Then at London Manjushri Centre there were two days of meetings (13th - 14th February 1984) with the Dalai Lama’s two representatives, Peter Kedge and Harvey Horrocks as FPMT representatives, Geshe Kelsang, the Priory Group, and two Manjushri community representatives. At the beginning there was no progress, but when the Priory Group explained about the possibility of legal action bringing to light the FPMT’s involvement in illegal activities (including drug-smuggling), the FPMT’s representatives accepted the separation. With the Dalai Lama’s representatives, both sides reached a peaceful agreement to formulate a new constitution such that Manjushri Institute would be owned publicly. A legally binding agreement was made, which was signed by the FPMT’s representatives, Geshe Kelsang, the Priory Group and the community representatives."

And yes, there is proof, safely locked away. And no, it will not be outed to satisfy the curiosity of a few. I believe Geshe Kelsang already saw the potential for growth of Kadampa Buddhism in the West and saw the seperation from the FPMT as a step in the right direction.


Vajra

[Helena]

No need to be more curious than what is already clearly explained.

There are people who would just keep digging and making it (seemingly like) their life's only ambition to expose something or another about a lama, or an organization. When they do not obsessively, it is clear to see that they are not doing it for the sake of Dharma or for the benefit of anyone. They are just doing it to create schism and gossip. It's all about achieving some self-glorification moment in history or something to that effect. LAME.

Anyone with half a brain can see right through it all. If some people don't see it, then it is clear that they are also more interested in gossiping and not learning the Dharma. Forget about practising!

Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso are both highly attained Lamas. They are in total control of what they are doing or want to achieve.

I do not need to trouble my little to even doubt or speculate on their actions and motives. THESE TWO GREAT MASTERS will never compromise the Dharma for anything or anyone else.

[DSFriend]

I too wish very much that these great lamas are all working together for the same cause instead of being split. Perhaps they are, but just accomplishing it through different methods. Some spreading the dharma via "agreeing with HHDL's way" while others spreading the dharma via "going against HHDL's way"

What I'm going to say is going to sound like a treason if I was a Tibetan in Tibet...

This ban has split monasteries, organisations, friendships between vajra brothers, families, lay practitioners. What have we gotten in upholding this ban?

- We got Tibet back? No
- HHDL's life shorten? No. He's well and may he continue to live long
- Ordained and lay people have religious freedom in India? No. It is India who is giving protection and resources

I see no outward, mundane benefit for this ban.

However, I see tenacity, commitment, passion, strong faith from Dorje Shugden practitioners all over the world.

The more we be in harmony, support each other, not criticize any lama, the more Dorje Shugden practice will be made known.

Talking about results, some beings are able to bring about positive and beneficial outcomes eventhough the method seems questionable and doesn't jive with what we think dharmic actions should be.

Well, best to hold our horses and watch our own actions IF it brings about the results or is it all about our own ego.

[Zach]

I think you will find the other side would respond by saying that so long as there are even a small amount of people practising reliance upon Dorje shugden then tibet will never be free.

[WisdomBeing]

I think you will find the other side would respond by saying that so long as there are even a small amount of people practising reliance upon Dorje shugden then tibet will never be free.

That's exactly why Dorje Shugden has to be the bad guy (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.0).

I will repost it here because I still find it as fascinating and logical as I did the first time I read it:

1. Dorje Shugden acts in the Bodhisattva manner accepting criticisms, hate campaigns and the 'destruction' of his practice. Why? Because it serves a bigger purpose for the overall survival of Buddhism in the world for the future. Why? It is easier to resurrect or do a Lazarus on Dorje Shugden in the future when the smoke clears, than it would be for the Dalai lama. The Dalai lama is a man and controlled by media, opinions, ppl, circumstances. But Dorje Shugden is a formless entity that can 'rise' above all of that very quickly when the time is right.

2. Whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance in any of the oracles, he never criticizes the Dalai Lama and in fact tells the audience to always withhold criticism towards Dalai Lama. He can say nothing about the Dalai Lama and just keep quiet. Dorje Shugden is well known to not answer questions that has little meaning, insignificant, or unacceptable to the listener. When questions are presented to him through the oracle, he often skips through questions that should not be answered at this time or has no meaning.

3.All the the destruction happening against him, he never makes comments, speaks against nor advices undharmic actions. Because it can all be fully reversed in a short time when the time is right.

4. Temporarily Dorje Shugden will accept the name AS THE CAUSE FOR THE LOSS OF TIBET, OR THE CAUSE WHY TIBET CANNOT BE REGAINED BACK, but in the end truth will arise. Dorje Shugden will reveal the true plot which Trijang Rinpoche already hinted at in the late 70's. ( I fold my hands to Trijang Rinpoche and prostrate my full body to Him. I offer my head as a stepping block for his feet. I truly have confidence in this great being. )

5. Dorje Shugden is strong enough to carry such a burden. Dorje Shugden practitioners are resilient enough to not abandon his practice during this crisis. Both Dorje Shugden and his true followers will not abandon each other no matter what is said and done temporarily at this time.  Both can carry the burden. I personally do not dislike, hate the Dalai Lama but have confidence in him and my own sacred protector Dorje Shugden. I choose to believe and take refuge in Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy. The other two options of hating Dalai lama and abandoning Dorje Shugden are not open to me nor would I choose any of the two options.

6. Why would Dalai Lama act, talk and promote so many contradictory actions that makes himself look unstable. Unless it was on purpose. I believe that truly. He is not stupid.

7. If Kache Marpo has 'destroyed' lamas/people/practitioners in the past for breaking the samaya or polluting the yellow hat teachings, then why is Samdhong Rinpoche, Kashag, Kalons, Ministers, Kunga Tara, and even the Dalai Lama himself are spared? Unless there is a much bigger soup brewing.

8. Nechung is the one who requested Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to arise as a uncommon Protector to protect Nagarjuna's view as embodied within Lama Tsongkapa's lineage only 350 years ago. Why would the same Nechung be talking the opposite. Unless there was a larger plan between Dorje Shugden, Dalai lama and Nechung. Seems like a hopeful fantasy? Well to many more, the idea of a dharma protector or Dorje Shugden themselves are fantasies made up by the Tibetan Lamas.

9.If Dorje Shugden is so powerful (which he is), why doesn't he do something to stop all this. Perhaps it is not time to 'stop' all this yet. In fact, Dorje Shugden is putting his followers through 'hell and back' (excuse me) and we have to just take it. Yes we will 'take' it. There has to be a much bigger game plan. Dorje Shugden takes the blame, Dalai lama works hard to make the Buddha Dharma grow while all the elite lamas and teachers are young.

Those who take refuge in Dalai lama and Dorje Shugden will not give up on both. Strongholds for the growth of Buddhadharma and the 're-arisal' of Dorje Shugden in the near future. If Dalai lama is so powerful (which he is), why doesn't he just do a binding ritual or fire puja himself and rid the planet/samsara of this horrible demented being called Jamgon Gyelway Tensung Gyelpo Dorje Shugden. And then stop spending so much time, money, heartaches, energy, resources to keep going against Dorje Shugden???!!! Just get rid of him ONCE AND FOR ALL. THE END. Because the Dalai Lama cannot destroy a being who has actualized the complete path of Guhyasamaja in both completion/generation stages or in other words a Buddha. Dalai lama cannot destroy Buddha Dorje Shugden who is one with Guhyasamaja and the 32 deities of his mandala are the same 32 deities as in Guhyasamaja's entourage.

So for the bigger purpose, the Dalai Lama has TO PUT THE BLAME OF ALL THE ILLS OF TIBET'S MISFORTUNE ONTO DORJE SHUGDEN WHO IS STRONG ENOUGH TO SHOULDER THIS. Dorje Shugden plays the bad guy for now. If it is blamed onto the Dalai Lama, it would spoil his reputation to spread dharma on the global scale which is what he is doing now. Planting seeds of dharma on the global scale, ripe for the young lamas to take over later as well as Dorje Shugden. The ills of Tibet are not Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden's fault, but the Tibetan peoples' own fault. But for most of the world , karma is not accepted, so the blame would go to the leader which is the Dalai lama. We couldn't afford that at this time when no one else can spread Buddhism like the Dalai lama. Think through this carefully to come to terms with the pain in your heart.I do not blame you for the pain. You are not at fault. You are part of a bigger plan. I've had many pains in my heart that I have come to terms with and some still working on because of this issue. We are all part of a bigger plan. Sounds cliche, but it is true and easier to get through the storm with this way of thinking.


10. If Dalai lama loses his reputation because he is the 'cause' for the loss of Tibet, then it would stain his reputation greatly and that would hinder to say the least, his promotion of the BuddhaDharma around the world. No lama of any tradition can match the skills, the persona, the knowledge, the title, and the charisma of Dalai lama to spread Buddhism so far and wide around the world.


11. Why can't the Tibetan Govt and various Monasteries destroy Dorje Shugden through binding rituals? Because they have tried and it shows the power of Dorje Shugden purposely. Hence to keep this power in mind, when later ppl will remember this power when they re-adopt Dorje Shugden's practice later. To leave a mark in people's minds that DORJE SHUGDEN CANNOT BE DEFEATED OR DESTROYED.

12. Why is Trijang Rinpoche allowed to practice Dorje Shugden if it harms the cause of Tibet and brings danger to the Dalai lama's life? Because it leaves a mark for the future, to bring up the point that Dorje Shugden does not hinder Tibet or Dalai Lama. These are small traces of hints left by the Dalai Lama for the SURVIVAL OF DORJE SHUGDEN. Someone has to take the blame. That is samsara.

13. Why does Dorje Shugden himself 'SIT ON THE FENCE?' Meaning, he says on one hand to respect and follow what the Dalai Lama says, but on the other hand, he told the Shar Gaden Monks that if their motivation for opening Shar Gaden was for the growth and preservation of the lineage, then it will be auspicious in the future. Doesn't that look contradictory. C'mon, which one is it Dorje Shugden? Clear it for us.  So if we were to follow what the Dalai Lama says, why open Shar Gaden and Serpom Monastery?  If we were to follow what Dorje Shugden says, then why be on this forum as he says to respect the Dalai lama always.

Should we open Shar Gaden which 'opposes' the Dalai Lama or should we listen to the Dalai lama and abandon Dorje Shugden's practice? Even the great Dorje Shugden sounds contradictory.

Why does Dorje Shugden continuously take trance and give advice even to those who do not give their allegiance up to Dalai lama while practicing Dorje Shugden at the same time? Doesn't that damage the samaya of the individual with Dorje Shugden or with the lama who initiated them into Dorje Shugden's practice? Whichever way you look at it, you damage the samaya with your guru or protector.

Zong Rinpoche (previous), Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche,Geshe Tendar, current Trijang Rinpoche, current Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, current Pabongka, Gonsar Rinpoche, the oracle monks, Gangchen Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen, etc etc all took teachings from the 14th Dalai Lama, let's not forget, at once time or another. So if we have taken teachings from the above lamas, then 14th Dalai lama is also our lineage lama which we must respect. Logical?

Since we say the Dalai lama must respect our lineage lamas such as Pabongka, then we must also reverse the situation and respect the Dalai lama as our lineage lama. So either way, the system is set up for you to 'lose'. If that is the case, there must be a MUCH BIGGER PICTURE that current infractions with our lineage lamas can be repaired later FOR THE BIGGER PICTURE.

After all with or without the Dalai Lama/Dorje Shugden current state affairs, we were doing a great job collecting negative karma, breaking commitments, and generally creating the causes for our personal samsaras to remain intact and strong on our own.

It is not the Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden to blame. Nor are they adding to it. We were in Samsara before the Dalai lama's name and Shugden even 'existed' as we know them today.

Yes the Dalai lama does look like he contradicts himself always. But so does Dorje Shugden. This AGAIN LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THEY ARE COOKING UP SOMETHING MUCH BIGGER OR IT'S NEARLY COOKED.

Yes, it is nearly cooked.

It is best to have respect for the Dalai lama and keep our practices towards Dorje Shugden steady. Whatever the case, if we go to Dalai lama's camp or we go to Dorje Shugden's camp, we go against lineage lamas. So best is to keep an equilibrium by thinking things out logically, following the law of cause and effect, engage in our practices to develop attainments within our continuum. With the great attainment we win freedom totally and no disrespect intended, but we won't need Dalai Lama, Buddha, Dorje Shugden or anyone. And that is their original intention.

I have stated my thoughts at this time and I SINCERELY HOPE THIS WILL BRING PEACE/UNDERSTANDING TO THE MANY PRACTITIONERS THAT VISIT THIS GREAT WEBSITE. With my thoughts, I wish to offend no one, or be right. It is just my attempt to think and reason things out at this time when no many other options are available. Again, I will NEVER GIVE UP MY DORJE SHUGDEN COMMITMENTS AND TO THE LAMAS WHO GAVE ME THE PRACTICES. Nor will I demean and hate His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I will not hate those against Dorje Shugden and forgive them.

Much success to all,

Tk

[vajralight]

Furthermore, the 14th Dalai Lama is not Geshe Kelsang's teacher and Geshe Kelsang has never received empowerments from him. The Sera Expulsion letter claims:

He (Geshe Kelsang) had received the fifth Dalai Lama's Lamrim Jampel Shalung at the Norbu Linka summer palace and the Kalachakra Initiation in 1956 from H.H.The Dalai Lama which incidently was the first Kalachakra.

This is incorrect. From an interview with Geshe Kelsang on 24th November 1996:

Q: In this letter [the Expulsion Letter] it says that you received the Lamrim Jampel Shal-lung at the Norbu Linka summer palace in Tibet and the Kalachakra Initiation in 1956 from HH the Dalai Lama. Did you receive these?

GKG:" I never received the Lamrim Jampel Shal-lung from HH. I don't know where they got their information from. I don't know why the people of Sera-Je Tsangpa Khangtsen are saying this. I believe they think they are telling the truth, because they are Buddhist monks. Of course it is true that HH gave these Lamrim teachings at the Norbu Linka summer palace, but at that time I was unaware of this.

When HH was about to give the Kalachakra Initiation in Lhasa, I tried to join this teaching but unfortunately there were no places left, it was full. For a short while I waited with some lay people, and then I returned home. So I never received the Kalachakra Initiation from HH.

Later, in India I was in Dalhousie, near Dharamsala, in the mountains doing long retreat. One day, I heard the news from my assistant that HH was giving a teaching on the Great Exposition of the Stages of Tantra by Je Tsongkhapa. I decided to attend these teachings and left for Dharamsala. Again, I became very sick and was unable to attend. Later, when I was in Manjushri Buddhist Centre, England, we requested HH to visit, but he could not come. It seems that I have no karma to listen to HH's Dharma teachings. Of course, in the past I have attended some of his general public talks, but that is different. Just because I attended these talks we cannot say that he is my root Guru."



Therefore for those in the NKT the Dalai Lama is not a lineage Lama.


vajra