Author Topic: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang  (Read 27431 times)

Mana

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Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« on: March 25, 2011, 05:18:14 AM »
They worked together in England to spread the dharma decades ago. Both hail from Sera Je Monastery.


thaimonk

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2011, 05:24:55 AM »
Those were the good old days. Even teachers have their differences, preferences and approaches. If they had stayed together they would have been the biggest force in Tibetan Buddhism today after the Dalai Lama. Would have been an incredible sight. I wonder what was the differences that made them separate? It must be approach in their dissemination style of Buddhism? It could not be about mundane issues such as money, or power. I highly doubt it.

Both men are movers and shakers of modern Buddhism, if they joined forces and stayed together continuing the practice of Dorje Shugden, it would have been even more powerful.

Would Lama Yeshe continued practicing Dorje Shugden or caved into the browbeating and given up if he was still with us? What do you think?

Lone Hermit

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2011, 09:04:34 AM »
Those were the good old days. Even teachers have their differences, preferences and approaches. If they had stayed together they would have been the biggest force in Tibetan Buddhism today after the Dalai Lama. Would have been an incredible sight. I wonder what was the differences that made them separate? It must be approach in their dissemination style of Buddhism? It could not be about mundane issues such as money, or power. I highly doubt it.


It was all about control of what was then the FPMT centre Manjushri Institute:

http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/good-night-lama-the-blackmail-tape/

 [quote} Would Lama Yeshe continued practicing Dorje Shugden or caved into the browbeating and given up if he was still with us? What do you think?
[/quote]

Impossible to say for sure but I doubt it as he  was100% devoted to HHDL. I think he would have followed the advice of his teacher and given up the practice. This is what all of his of his friends from Sera Je did and there's no reason to suppose he would do otherwise.

Lone Hermit

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2011, 09:07:47 AM »
Those were the good old days. Even teachers have their differences, preferences and approaches. If they had stayed together they would have been the biggest force in Tibetan Buddhism today after the Dalai Lama. Would have been an incredible sight. I wonder what was the differences that made them separate? It must be approach in their dissemination style of Buddhism? It could not be about mundane issues such as money, or power. I highly doubt it.


It was all about control of what was then the FPMT centre Manjushri Institute:

http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/good-night-lama-the-blackmail-tape/

 
Quote
Would Lama Yeshe continued practicing Dorje Shugden or caved into the browbeating and given up if he was still with us? What do you think?


Impossible to say for sure but I doubt it as he  was100% devoted to HHDL. I think he would have followed the advice of his teacher and given up the practice. This is what all of his of his friends from Sera Je did and there's no reason to suppose he would do otherwise.

thaimonk

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2011, 11:10:37 AM »
Those were the good old days. Even teachers have their differences, preferences and approaches. If they had stayed together they would have been the biggest force in Tibetan Buddhism today after the Dalai Lama. Would have been an incredible sight. I wonder what was the differences that made them separate? It must be approach in their dissemination style of Buddhism? It could not be about mundane issues such as money, or power. I highly doubt it.

It was all about control of what was then the FPMT centre Manjushri Institute:


It would have been spectacular if both these great men could have seen eye to eye and combined forces.

Back then it was FPMT and it was control? Control as in Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang wanted to control the direction of the FPMT? Or control of what?


Lineageholder

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2011, 01:16:07 PM »
The main issue back then was that the FPMT, having set up Manjushri Institute, wanted to liquidate it to fund other projects, much against the wishes of the actual community themselves.  Geshe Kelsang became involved because the community approached him and asked what they should do.  Finally, the community decided that they wanted to separate from the FPMT but to keep Lama Yeshe as their Spiritual Director, but things didn't really work out.

You can read the whole (accurate) story here:

http://www.newkadampatruth.org/geshe-kelsang-gyatso/#Smear: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso stole Manjushri Institute from the FPMT

WisdomBeing

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2011, 05:59:25 PM »
I would think that Lama Yeshe would have followed his Gurus, HH Trijang Rinpoche and Geshe Rabten Rinpoche, and kept his practice rather than the Dalai Lama's instruction since the Dalai Lama was not directly Lama Yeshe's guru.

Lama Yeshe doesn't strike me as someone who would keep to convention!
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

beggar

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2011, 06:24:51 PM »
What interesting thoughts and questions.

Such a beautiful photo too to see such harmony.

I don't believe it would be altogether total disharmony if they were both still around. I don't believe real lamas like these two great masters would never have stooped to the level of what is happening now, saying the things that are being said.

We believe that these teachers are enlightened and attained, and therefore have clairvoyance. Then surely these supposed conflicts and differences would be just so petty to them! Buddhas wouldn't argue over a Dharma centre would they? Wouldn't these two great masters know each others' true intentions on a much higher level?

Whatever the perceived differences, these are now two of the largest Buddhist organisations throughout the world - do you think this would have been as possible and as huge if they had "stayed together"? Another interesting question to ponder.

Lone Hermit

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2011, 07:22:50 PM »
Smear: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso stole Manjushri Institute from the FPMT

Unfortunately for those who were around at the time and involved with establishing the centre this is exactly what happened. Subsequent accounts are a bit economical with the truth but people are free to believe whatever they like.

Lone Hermit

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2011, 07:28:26 PM »
Back then it was FPMT and it was control? Control as in Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang wanted to control the direction of the FPMT? Or control of what?

Lama Yeshe established Manjushri Institute and invited Geshe Kelsang to come as a teacher. After a while GK and his students took over the Institute and forced the FPMT to hand over control.

vajralight

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2011, 12:32:41 AM »
Believe what you want:

http://www.newkadampatruth.org/smear-geshe-kelsang-gyatso-stole-manjushri-institute-from-the-fpmt

Geshe Kelsang was the first Resident Teacher at Manjushri Institute. He later accepted Lama Yeshe’s request for him to step down and had made plans to return to India and then to live at Madhyamaka Centre (which Geshe Kelsang founded independent of the FPMT) in York. However, the community at Manjushri all petitioned him to stay.

The community of Manjushri Institute wished to save their building, Conishead Priory, from being sold to make funds available for suspect business dealings in Hong Kong. This meant they needed to separate from the FPMT. On the other hand, they wished Lama Yeshe to stay as their Spiritual Director. After continual discussions on how to solve the problem, also involving two representatives from the Dalai Lama, the Institute’s managers – then called the ‘Priory Group’ – decided to take steps to separate Manjushri Institute from FPMT.

There were three main reasons for doing this:

1) FPMT managers had committed serious illegal actions, which was public knowledge among many people at Dharma centres;
2) FPMT managers wanted to sell Manjushri Institute’s building; and
3) Although, according to its constitution, legally everything at the centre belonged only to four people, in reality all the work of developing the centre was being done by the community, and not these four.

Eventually, a legally binding agreement was made, which was signed by the FPMT’s representatives, Geshe Kelsang, the Priory Group and the community representatives. One part of the agreement was to confirm that Lama Yeshe was the Spiritual Director of Manjushri Centre.

The whole detailed history of Manjushri Institute over these years has been chronicled by three reliable witnesses who were part of the proceedings. 

and:


.....Then at London Manjushri Centre there were two days of meetings (13th - 14th February 1984) with the Dalai Lama’s two representatives, Peter Kedge and Harvey Horrocks as FPMT representatives, Geshe Kelsang, the Priory Group, and two Manjushri community representatives. At the beginning there was no progress, but when the Priory Groupexplained about the possibility of legal action bringing to light the FPMT’s involvement in illegal activities (including drug-smuggling), the FPMT’s representatives accepted the separation. With the Dalai Lama’s representatives, both sides reached a peaceful agreement to formulate a new constitution such that Manjushri Institute would be owned publicly. A legally binding agreement was made, which was signed by the FPMT’s representatives, Geshe Kelsang, the Priory Group and the community representatives.

Another part of the agreement was to confirm that Lama Yeshe was the Spiritual Director of Manjushri Centre. The community did not want to separate from Lama Yeshe, only to separate from FPMT.

thaimonk

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2011, 04:07:06 AM »
Thoughts:

1. If Lama Yeshe invited Geshe Kelsang, wouldn't it be impolite for Geshe Kelsang to try to take over Manjushri or counter Lama Yeshe's wishes? After all Lama invited Geshe to his centre in the first place. Is it not wrong for Manjushri students to petition a guest lama to stay over your founding lama's instructions?

2. If the students petitioned Geshe to stay in the centre, shouldn't Geshe advise them to listen to Lama Yeshe their spiritual director and founder of the centre?

3. What proof is there that Lama Yeshe's group was having suspect dealings in Hong Kong? This is what one side claims is it not? 

4. What actual proof is there that FPMT managers engaged in illegal dealings? What were the illegal dealings?

Lama Yeshe was brilliant. Geshe Kelsang is brilliant. Can these two brilliant teachers have engaged in actions that are described above. If either parties tell their side, it will swing to their own teachers would it not?

Why would Lama Yeshe allow illegal dealings in Hong Kong and then try to sell Manjushri building to fund it? Why would Geshe Kelsang even consider a petition for him to stay when the centre and it's people do not 'belong' to him? If he wanted to start a new centre, he should not take anyone from Manjushri with him at all to respect Lama Yeshe as their teacher? If Lama Yeshe engaged in illegal dealings, then the whole foundation of FPMT falls flat. No one gains attainments?

I wish so much both teachers remained friends, close and worked together. The impact is too great.
 


thaimonk

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2011, 04:09:52 AM »
Back then it was FPMT and it was control? Control as in Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang wanted to control the direction of the FPMT? Or control of what?

Lama Yeshe established Manjushri Institute and invited Geshe Kelsang to come as a teacher. After a while GK and his students took over the Institute and forced the FPMT to hand over control.

I am not debating with you but where did you hear a valid recount GK took over the institute and forced FPMT to hand it over? If that is true, lots of respect for GK would be lost everywhere. Where do you get your information from? It sounds murky?

Mana

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2011, 05:26:54 AM »
If you wish to view Geshe Kelsang and Lama Yeshe as brilliant teachers but still ordinary beings, then the fallout and negative circumstances are possible. And it did occur.

If you wish to view them as attained beings, then there was no fallout but a play of magical karmic illusions to subdue the mind and purify the circumstances so their works can grow massive.

(The viewer could or could not be attained is added into the equation of course)

The combinations of the above two are endless.

It depends who you are and what view you choose?

WisdomBeing

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Re: Lama Yeshe & Geshe Kelsang
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2011, 10:22:19 AM »
Believe what you want:

At the beginning there was no progress, but when the Priory Group explained about the possibility of legal action bringing to light the FPMT’s involvement in illegal activities (including drug-smuggling), the FPMT’s representatives accepted the separation. With the Dalai Lama’s representatives, both sides reached a peaceful agreement to formulate a new constitution such that Manjushri Institute would be owned publicly. A legally binding agreement was made, which was signed by the FPMT’s representatives, Geshe Kelsang, the Priory Group and the community representatives.

Another part of the agreement was to confirm that Lama Yeshe was the Spiritual Director of Manjushri Centre. The community did not want to separate from Lama Yeshe, only to separate from FPMT.

Re the explanation about the potential legal action (highlighted in blue above), personally i feel it was a blackmailing threat. Whether it is true or not, any legal action would bring disrepute to an organisation, so i would imagine that Lama Yeshe - thinking of the bigger picture (woo hoo yes he has a bigger picture too), probably decided to acquiesce to the separation. Why else would any teacher wish to separate from his own centre if not for the greater good?

I don't understand this point though: "Another part of the agreement was to confirm that Lama Yeshe was the Spiritual Director of Manjushri Centre. The community did not want to separate from Lama Yeshe, only to separate from FPMT."

Lama Yeshe founded FPMT so he IS FPMT. He is the spiritual director of FPMT. It's like saying one of the NKT centres wants to separate from NKT but not Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

If they wanted Lama Yeshe to remain the Spiritual Director but they did not wish to listen to him, why ask him to stay as Spiritual Director. Doesn't make sense to me.

I do like Mana's perspective on the issue though."If you wish to view them as attained beings, then there was no fallout but a play of magical karmic illusions to subdue the mind and purify the circumstances so their works can grow massive."

Anything is possible and I dare not think that whatever my deluded mind thinks is the truth.

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being