Author Topic: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...  (Read 46945 times)

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2010, 11:46:44 PM »
No. No public promoting of the Dharma Protectors, thank you. We are not talking about Jesus and Pals here.

Furthermore, your suggestion seems to make the whole issue a mega-political one, having to do with the global superpowers and so forth. No good, not at all.

Do you have any other ideas? Buddhist ones?

harrynephew

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2010, 07:13:06 PM »
I think if we were to live during the Buddha's time and experience what Devadatta had done to the Buddha and entire Buddhist community, being the ignorrant person whom we are, we wont be able to understand why they bear such personalities and why are they doing such.

similarly, now that people 'see' that Dorje Shugden is causing harm, their focus will be on the harm done and not the benefit or actual person which will benefit them in the end.

one plus point is that we have HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to point this out to us. Back during Buddha's time, Buddha can't be pointing at his assasin saying that he's Indra. That would only spoil the plot, won't it? lol
Harry Nephew

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Big Uncle

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Anyway, wouldn't it be nice if this extract be posted on the website. I think a lot of people would find the word so of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche comforting and reassuring for many viewers of this website.

Lee Dhi

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Great point dsnowlion: one effective way of having Dorje Shugden practice flourish is through new practitioners who have not been entangled in the politics of this matter.

Starting on a clean slate (on minds that are not tainted by the controversy) by developing strong faith in Dorje Shugden amongst new practitioner with complete focus on the benefits of his pure practice will be much swifter than trying to undo what has been done. As more and more practitioners engage in Dorje Shugden practices, merits are accumulated and the cause for The Great King's practice to rise into mainstream practice again is created.

After reading through the comments, there are, in general 2 approaches to have Dorje Shugden practice grow:
1) The method to actively opposes the Dalai Lama
2) The method to focus on the benefits of our Protector instead of the "bad" of Dalai Lama (aligned with Trijang Rinpoche's advise)

Although I am for approach 2, I see harmony in the two efforts because both contribute towards progress to having Dorje Shugden worship to flourish to benefit all sentient beings. Working in parallel does speed up the process!


a friend

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After reading through the comments, there are, in general 2 approaches to have Dorje Shugden practice grow:
1) The method to actively opposes the Dalai Lama
2) The method to focus on the benefits of our Protector instead of the "bad" of Dalai Lama (aligned with Trijang Rinpoche's advise)

Dear Lee Dhi,

Thank you for following the advice to read the older posts. I have something to tell you about the conclusions that you elicit from them. We never intended in this website to have Dorje Shugden practice grow through a method that actively opposes the Dalai Lama.
In a general way we don´t have a direct purpose to have the practice of our Protector grow per se. What we aspire to is to see the teachings of our Lord Tsonkhapa disseminated and practiced. For this we need to help the Lamas of the lineage to survive in conditions conducive for teaching the teachings of Je Rinpoche.
And for this to happen, for them to survive for instance in the monasteries we need to constantly provide a shield against the power of the Dalai Lama, who would like to see all the people of the lineage stop the practice or be silenced --for instance sending most monks back to Tibet, to their families, not to monasteries. With very few monks and Lamas, how are the teachings of Lord Tsongkhapa going to be disseminated? So the actions "actively opposing the Dalai Lama" have nothing to do with the purpose of disseminating Dorje Shugden practice, they are directed to the protection of the lineage, the monasteries, the monks, in order that the salvific teachings of Lord Tsongkhapa, that very essence of all the teachings of Lord Buddha, survive this persecution and be disseminated in the world through pure transmissions.
Lord Dorje Shugden is the same divine entity under the form of a Protector and he is helping all practitioners in their practice and also all conditions in the external world to be the less dammaging and the best possible in this samsara. His practice will grow with the dissemination of Lord Tsongkhapa´s teachings. Lord Dorje Shugden is the special Protector of Je Tsongkhapa´s teachings.

About this advice that Kyabje Rinpoche gave to somebody we are not talking here about teachings to follow. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche never talked publicly of this matter so what he said was addressed to specific persons in circumstances that we don´t know of in actuality. We don´t know the context. So this is not a teaching, this is not a Dharma advice addressed to us. My Lama was supremely close to him and never said a word about such advice, so this is not a general all encompassing advice. We don´t even know the exact words that he might´ve pronounced, let alone the exact meaning. So nobody here is disobeying our lineage Guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. I ask everybody not to imply this because it is not true.

And believe me, there´s not such thing as "focusing in the bad Dalai Lama". We would like so much to have all our people protected and forget about the ban. As long as the people and the teachings are threatened we have at least to remain alert.

In the meantime, let´s all pray for the Dalai Lama´s long life and good health, and that he changes his mind or at least does not attack anymore our precious treasury of Dharma: the teachings and the people who uphold them.

Let me also express my appreciation for your good heart, for your intense desire to elicit good from whatever comes. This is very precious and very commendable.


DSFriend

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By Kadampa Geshe Langri Tangpa 1054-1123)

With the determination to accomplish
The highest welfare for all sentient beings
Who surpass even a wish-granting jewel
I will learn to hold them supremely dear.
---

Thank you Thom for posting the 8 verses of Mind Transformation. As difficult as it is with the ban, i pray that we will be able to allow the essence of these verses to seap into our mindstream and live it out.
Thank you for all your wonderful,inspiring encouraging, thought provoking postings.

Geronimo

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Song Of The Mystic Experiences Of Lama Je Rinpoche
By Jamyang Choje Tashi Palden (1379-1449)

Written at Drepung Chokyi Dechen at the request of the two meritorious Drungtrapa Palzangpo brothers, by Lama Tashi Palden, a Buddhist monk and teacher who had searched many hundreds of thousands of scriptures with the lights of his wisdom.



O sun-like Prince of the Conqueror,
Whose wisdom, vast as the heavens,
Has the brilliance of knowledge
That sees what ultimately is
And what merely seems to be;
O Venerable Lord of Dharma, Most Perfect Guru,
The dust of your feet I place
On the crown of my head.

Even the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas,
Who fill the ten directions,
Cannot describe the excellence
Of your body, speech and mind;
Yet out of passionate inspiration
I shall sing of them; pray,
Listen for but a few moments.

As a blossoming garland of flowers
To adorn the necks of the clear-minded,
And as a precious jewel
To enhance the force of conviction,
This song in praise of your oceans of splendour
To delight all sages, I have composed.

Like a cloud, the merit of your superb deeds
Releases a torrent of rain that swells
The virtue of those to be trained,
And proclaims with a dragon’s thundering roar
The sweetness of the vast and profound;
O glorious, powerful, billowing Lama.

Foremost of tantric adepts, the mighty yogi
Who mastered the many millions of samadhis,
Composed faultless expositions,
And made true effort in practice,
Most resplendent of Lamas,
You tower over the heads of all.

At Vajrasana in a former birth,
To the Victorious One you offered
A rosary of one hundred crystal beads.
Thus you acquired the fortune
Later to attain the perfect view;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

At the age of seven you directly perceived
Dipamkara Atisha, the great Path Clearer,
And Vajrapani, Lord of the Secret.
The exhortations of both the sutras
And tantras dawned upon you;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

O Jetsun, Lord of phenomenal existence,
You directly perceived Manjushri,
Bodhisattva of the wisdom of emptiness,
Seated in a radiant aura as blue
As the colour of a perfect sapphire;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

From this time onward, O High One,
Whenever desired, you could invoke
Manjushri, Treasure of Stainless Wisdom,
And constantly listen to the teachings
Of both Sutrayana’s Transcendent Wisdom
And Tantrayana’s Secret Assembly;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

When practising the seven-limbed ritual
Of the thirty-five Purification Buddhas,
Continually and clearly you beheld them
And all their forms, mudras and symbols;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Seated in the auspicious posture,
Hands in the Dharma-teaching mudra,
Buddha Maitreya prophesied that,
Just as the Sugatas who possess the ten powers,
You will one day perform the twelve acts
Of a supreme, universal teacher;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Victorious Master of both life and death,
Truth visions you received
Of Amitabha Buddha, the Medicine Buddhas,
And that teacher of men and gods,
Shakyamuni, Prince of the Shakya Throne,
Each with a retinue vast as the oceans;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Saintly Tara, source of all siddhis,
Ushnisha Vijaya, the one exalted and radiant,
Ushnisha Sitatapatra, dispeller of obstacles,
And other such mystic female Buddhas
Again and again you directly perceived;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Bodhisattva Nagarjuna, Aryadeva, Holy Buddhapalita,
Magnificent Chandrakirti and the mighty yogi Nagabodhi
Appeared, then constantly cared for you.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Exalted Asanga, who delights the three worlds,
The Brother, Vasubandhu, a Second Buddha,
And Dignaga, child of Manjushri,
Appeared, then constantly cared for you;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Dharmakirti, a moon amongst teachers,
As well as Gunaprabha, Shakyaprabha,
Shantideva and the glorious Abhaya,
Appeared, then constantly cared for you;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

All the mahasiddhas of India and Tibet,
Such as Indrabudhi, Saraha, Luipa,
Krisnacharin, Tilbupa, Tilopa and Naropa
Appeared, then constantly cared for you;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Clearly Manjushri prophesied
That, relying upon these lineages,
You would produce colossal spiritual boons
For youself and for all sentient beings.
Great Bold One who spontaneously
Fulfills the wishes of the world;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

When the samadhi of the yoga combining
Mental tranquility with cognition of emptiness
Increased like the waxing moon,
You beheld the form of the Destroyer
Yamantaka, “Opponent of the Lord of Death”,
Complete with all mudras and expressions.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Having touched your heart
To the wisdom sword of Manjushri,
A stream of undefiled ambrosia
Flowed into the depth of your being,
Spontaneously arousing the propitious
Absorption of highest joy.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Prayer for Rebirth in the Land of Bliss
And An Eulogy of the Perfect Intent
Of the Dauntless Protector Maitreya Buddha
As well as their graduated levels of meaning
Manjushri lucidly conveyed to you,
Who recorded and skillfully presented them;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Whenever you consecrated a religious image,
The Wisdom Beings actually entered
Into the Symbolic Beings.
This host of deities that you summoned
Still generates fields of merit within beings;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

One night you dreamed of Nagarjuna
And his five spiritual sons
Amongst themselves discussing
The fabric of dependent origination.
From their midst came Buddhapalita,
Who touched you with a scripture.
The very next day within you
Rose the mind of a High One;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

By focusing on the pith of the six branches
Of Kalachakra, “The Wheel of Time”,
You directly perceived his Buddha-form.
He foretold that soon you
Would equal even King Suchandra;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

When for the first time you led
The Great Prayer Festival of Lhasa,
A hundred magical omens appeared,
At your making this joyous offering,
The Buddhas and their sons in the ten directions
Were filled with supreme delight.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Generating the form of a great-bliss deity
Through the yoga of the non-duality
Of profound luminosity and illusory appearances,
You attained the vajrayoga body;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

By practicing the mantric science of inhaling
And exhaling OM AH HUM on the lotus heart,
The vital energies entered the central nadi,
Rested as breathing stopped, and then dissolved.
Thus you experienced the clear light,
Mahamudra, the great seal,
Attaining the vajrayoga speech;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Raising the navel chakra’s mystic heat
Which rests at the base of the central channel,
The letter HAM at the crown of your head
Melted and fell to your heart
As simultaneously the experience
Of the blisses dawned upon you.
Thus you attained the vajrayoga mind;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Having been invoked as witnesses
To your pure and perfect aspirations,
All Buddhas and Bodhisattvas came forth.
Only when you had summoned each of them
Into his respective position
Did you honour them with offerings;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

While contemplating the principal mandala
Of Manjushrivajra, Guhyasamaja,
You dreamed that Maitreya and Manjushri,
Who were speaking of Dharma, passed down to you
A jeweled vase brimming with water,
Portending that you would master all teachings.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

On a throne adorned with precious gems
Sat the omniscient Kargyu Lama
Buton Rinchen Trub.
A text of the Guhyasamaja Root Tantra
He gave to you, exhorting
You to be its keeper;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Accepting this responsibility
With mudras and mantras thrice
You touched the text to your head.
By its blessings it became obvious
That the tantra Separating and Mixing,
Obtained by Marpa of the Southern Hills,
Is the true oral tradition of Exalted Nagarjuna;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Your mind absorbed in the mystic circle of Heruka –
Chakrasambara, the Wheel of Perfect Bliss – myriads
Of dakinis of the outer, inner and secret places
Made you offerings of vajra songs,
Transporting you in ecstasy;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

In meditation destroying the forces of darkness,
You beheld the radiant Buddha, Mighty Demon Tamer,
Having an aura as pure as burnished gold,
More brilliant than a million suns.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

Your being having become indivisible from
The body, speech and mind of all Buddhas,
The might of the power of evil was subdued.
As the Dharma protectors crushed the demon families,
Shrieks of the defeated satanic forces
Resounded across the universe.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

These multitudes of Dharma protectors,
That you brought under control,
In a previous aeon had been subjected
By Buddha Vajradhara to guard your doctrine.
With profound reverence they work this still;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

That you would, after entering parinirvana,
Sit in the presence of Dauntless Maitreya
In Tushita, Pure Land of Joy,
And would be known as Wisdom Essence
Was, O Lord of Life, rightly prophesied
By both Manjushri and Vajrapani.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.

By the strength of this eulogy
Sung from the depths of pure love,
May the afflictions of beings
Limitless as the sky be extinguished.
In this and all future lives
May all be nurtured by true teachers
And embraced by the sacred Dharma.

May the innate wisdom of great bliss
Rain throughout the world;
May the stains of erroneously grasping
Mind and its objects be uprooted;
And may all be inspired quickly to become
Like you, a Jetsun Lama.

May the wisdoms of learning, contemplation
And meditation overtake the earth;
May the arts of deliberation,
Debate and composition flourish;
May the ordinary and supreme siddhis
Come to each and every practitioner;
And may all be inspired quickly to become
Like you, a Jetsun Lama.

By the limitless oceans of merit
Of having presented, like Samantabhadra,
Clouds of offerings spanning the skies,
Of having bared every negative imprint
And downfall accumulated since infinity,
Of having rejoiced in the spirituality
Of those on the paths to enlightenment,
And of having beseeched the Lamas
To turn the Wheel of Dharma
And not to enter parinirvana.

May all beings experience peerless samadhi;
May goodness swell like the waxing moon;
And may the doctrine of Omniscient Tzong Khapa
Thrive until time’s end.

Geronimo

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"Where is anger for one freed from anger,
Who is subdued and lives perfectly equanimous,
Who truly knowing is wholly freed,
Supremely tranquil and equipoised?
He who repays an angry man in kind
Is worse than the angry man;
Who does not repay anger in kind,
He alone wins the battle hard to win.
He promotes the weal of both,
His own, as well as of the other.
Knowing that the other man is angry,
He mindfully maintains his peace
And endures the anger of both,
His own, as well as of the other,
Even if the people ignorant of true wisdom
Consider him a fool thereby."

The Buddha


Compassion is a priority
 
Compassion is not for others.
It is not something to read about or admire.
It is not something to praise.
It is not a philosophy alone.
It is not a dry ideal state beyond us....

Compassion is a priority and a way of life we have to embody daily.
It can be hard or easy,
depending on how much we want it,
and realize others need it.

Tsem Tulku

dsnowlion

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Quote
"Where is anger for one freed from anger,
Who is subdued and lives perfectly equanimous,
Who truly knowing is wholly freed,
Supremely tranquil and equipoised?
He who repays an angry man in kind
Is worse than the angry man;
Who does not repay anger in kind,
He alone wins the battle hard to win.
He promotes the weal of both,
His own, as well as of the other.
Knowing that the other man is angry,
He mindfully maintains his peace
And endures the anger of both,
His own, as well as of the other,
Even if the people ignorant of true wisdom
Consider him a fool thereby."

The Buddha


Compassion is a priority
 
Compassion is not for others.
It is not something to read about or admire.
It is not something to praise.
It is not a philosophy alone.
It is not a dry ideal state beyond us....

Compassion is a priority and a way of life we have to embody daily.
It can be hard or easy,
depending on how much we want it,
and realize others need it.

Tsem Tulku


Amongst the darkness, confusion and chaos...
emerges a light of wisdom that transcends everything.

I like this quote very much as it helps us reflect on our motivations and actions.
Thank you LG for always posting such interesting words of wisdom.
It helps keep us all sane.

It would be nice to know where you are also extracted these quotes :)

 

dsnowlion

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Great point dsnowlion: one effective way of having Dorje Shugden practice flourish is through new practitioners who have not been entangled in the politics of this matter.

I wonder what is going to be more shocking for these new practitioners: finding out the truth of the politics on a website or being spit on and cursed when they naively mention their lama's name to a Tibetan they happen to be conversing with.


Honestly I do not think new practitioners would want get themselves involve in any politics. That is the least thing they'd expect of want when they embark on a spiritual journey. If they can learn about Dorje Shugden, does his practice and gain the benefits from there I think would help them to seal their faith in Dharma and help them grow in their spiritual paths.

Most of them do not care much about Tibetan politics unless they are told so. Even then it is hard for people to really grasp and feel sympathetic towards their cause because sorry to say this is "samsara" and many are more worried about their own current stress, hence no need to add more unnecessary stress, they say. These are newbies in general that I know and we cannot expect them to think more as they are not at that level yet.

So shouldn't we protect their minds, because by protecting their minds we are helping to nurture their spiritual path until they are strong enough to face such unfortunate disturbing news.

We cannot control everyone, if the pro-DL people wants to destroy their own reputation by spitting on Shugdenpas, then it we know Dharma it just clearly shows their afflictive emotions and obviously they do not have Dharma. How can we stop them? I doubt fighting fire with fire will make the fire smaller for this is not we are encouraged to do in Dharma.

Besides what is it that is so difficult for us to listen to good advice especially when it is coming from HH Trijang Dorje Change?

Geronimo

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So, the Buddha himself said that we should first analyze his teachings and once we are convinced of their validity then put them into practice.
We should not just blindly follow what he said simply because he said it.

It also says in the teachings that you should not simply rely on the person giving Dharma teachings but on the Dharma itself.
In other words, you should base your practice on valid teachings of the Buddha and the previous pundits’ and yogis’ commentaries on those teachings.
Moreover, you should practice according to your own capacity.
Just because something is called Buddhism or Buddhist meditation doesn’t mean that you should necessarily put it into practice.
Of course, your practice should be based on valid teachings of the Buddha and the ancient Indian pundits’ and yogis’ commentaries, but even then you should just practice according to your own capacity.
As Jimmini Cricket said, "Let your conscience be your guide." We all know that once we step outside the shadow of the lama, what is right and what is wrong. Lord Buddha never ever said to hurt and manipulate others for your own agendas. In fact he encouraged people to be nice and love one another.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 12:05:32 AM by Lhakpa Gyaltshen »

Middleway

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Quote
Great point dsnowlion: one effective way of having Dorje Shugden practice flourish is through new practitioners who have not been entangled in the politics of this matter.

I wonder what is going to be more shocking for these new practitioners: finding out the truth of the politics on a website or being spit on and cursed when they naively mention their lama's name to a Tibetan they happen to be conversing with.


Honestly I do not think new practitioners would want get themselves involve in any politics. That is the least thing they'd expect of want when they embark on a spiritual journey. If they can learn about Dorje Shugden, does his practice and gain the benefits from there I think would help them to seal their faith in Dharma and help them grow in their spiritual paths.

Most of them do not care much about Tibetan politics unless they are told so. Even then it is hard for people to really grasp and feel sympathetic towards their cause because sorry to say this is "samsara" and many are more worried about their own current stress, hence no need to add more unnecessary stress, they say. These are newbies in general that I know and we cannot expect them to think more as they are not at that level yet.

So shouldn't we protect their minds, because by protecting their minds we are helping to nurture their spiritual path until they are strong enough to face such unfortunate disturbing news.

We cannot control everyone, if the pro-DL people wants to destroy their own reputation by spitting on Shugdenpas, then it we know Dharma it just clearly shows their afflictive emotions and obviously they do not have Dharma. How can we stop them? I doubt fighting fire with fire will make the fire smaller for this is not we are encouraged to do in Dharma.

Besides what is it that is so difficult for us to listen to good advice especially when it is coming from HH Trijang Dorje Change?

Are we still debating the validity of strong actions such as protest here?  The posts are getting a bit wooly so excuse me if I've got the wrong end of the stick.  But if it is then here's some points in response to the above post:

If the DL is successful in his actions there will be no opportunity for us to spread Dharma to people as we will not be considered Buddhist.

How do you protect new practitioners minds from something that is spread all over the internet? I found out about it after practising for 3 months.  I agree not to force the issue - but neither can we duck it.

"We cannot control everyone, if the pro-DL people wants to destroy their own reputation by spitting on Shugdenpas..."
Most karma ripens in future lives - to get the karma of their reputation being destroyed ripening now takes a bit of action.  Otherwise people will happily believe the DL & DS practice will sink without a trace.

We are not fighting fire with fire when we speak out strongly.  The DL's actions are deluded - ours are motivated by compassion - I believe this for everyone I know to be involved in protest anyway.

A different interpretation of Ven. Trijang's advice can be found earlier in this thread.

Middleway

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Oh yeah - and that speech from Lama Zopa is a guilt trip & he should be ashamed.  There's some good discussion on a part of it going on in the 'Buddha chose Hinduism as "wrong path" to teach us a lesson?' in case anyone hadn't noticed.

DSFriend

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4 - Sometimes Buddha's followers, the Sangha members, manifest as Stupid Ones, like Indra manisfesting as Devadatta, and later, those same persons will become Great Beings, as all practitioners should. But of course, whether this person was before that, or later becomes something else, means nothing, in an ethical sense. The fact that the Buddha is the ground and principal, means nothing, from the point of view of addressing the choices and actions of the "grounded ones", like, say, Devadatta. Devadatta was surely in the mandala of the Buddha, as he had been traveling the samsara with the Bodhisattva for aeons, but this fact does not have any ethical relevance when it comes to the actions of "devadattaism". And as we all become Buddhas eventually, it cannot be used as an argument of the morality of any action we do today. Josef Stalin becomes a Buddha eventually, but does this mean that killing 30 million humans is an action of a Buddha? Of course not. So who cares what Devadatta becomes later, since the acts he did were unethical.

5 - Sometimes Buddha emanates as the whole setting; both the principal and the entourage. This also, like the point 4, has no ethical implications whatsoever. So even if the Buddha himself would have emanated as the six heretics to show the glory of Dharma, it nevertheless is true that the claims, views, and actions based on those claims and views, were erroneous! That afterall was the whole point in emanating as the six heretics. If a Buddha makes an erroneous action in order to show error, the act remains erroneous eventhough it was made by a Buddha. To maintain an opposite view is to maintain that a Buddha could not manifest as a "mara" or a "devadatta", whereas Tantras and scholars such as Khedrubje just said otherwise in the quote from Trijang. In short: Buddhas cannot show error without doing error. Therefore there is error, as Khedrubje implied.

6 - And so, finally, the main point: If all the previous holds true, then one can say that actions can be judged faulty or unethical irrespective of whether one holds the actor to be faultless or not. As an practical example: One can say that Dalai has practiced wrong speech and wrong action even if one holds him to be Avalokiteshvara. Otherwise one would have to say that it is ethically correct action to try to kill a Buddha, since Devadatta the Emanatee did just that.


Dear Zhalmed Pawo

I've read your post and also A Friend's, especially on the three levels (inner, outer and secret) and got me really thinking...but not able to come to a conclusion.

A Friend advised strongly that we should not make the error to confuse the views between these levels. However, the enlightened ones can emanate in ways to display faults as quoted below from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors. How do we keep watch of our perception to balance between faith in having pure views (secret) vs developing insightful wisdom through analytical contemplation (outer)

As said, because the Buddhas, who have accomplished the welfare of themselves and others, are fully skilled in the means for subduing disciples by way of many and various inconceivable emanations, they sometimes display faults that they do not actually have. They might appear in a lustful form in order to subdue someone with desire, hateful form in order to subdue someone with hate, or ignorant form in order to subdue someone with ignorance. Moreover, they even display the forms of birds, deer, maras, rakshas, the blind or maimed. It is as said in the Meeting of Father and Son Sutra,

Appearing in the guise of Indra or Brahma,
Or sometimes clothed as Maras,
They act for the sake of sentient beings
Though worldly beings are unaware of it.
Some act and dress as women.
There are emanations, as well, in the animal realm.
Acting desirous although they are not,
Showing fear although unafraid,
Acting ignorant, insane, or crippled,
While in fact they are none of these,
In various emanations,
They subdue sentient beings.


sincerely
DSFriend
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 05:46:43 PM by DSFriend »

a friend

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Dear DSFriend,
Whoever ever denied that the Buddhas can appear as this or that? Bitches, insane humans, birds, whatever. What they don´t do when they do appear as insane, bad, etc, is to appear simultaneously in the garb of a Buddha. They don´t do that. Imagine the confusion if they did.