dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Big Uncle on February 18, 2010, 12:47:52 PM
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The following is an extract from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors (pg 125 onwards)
- a masterpiece of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and downloadable from this site.
CONCLUSION: PERVASIVE ENLIGHTENED ACTIVITIES
There is something I must mention at this point. As stated above, the Great Fifth
Dalai Lama and Omniscient Panchen Rinpoche were like Lords of the Teachings. In
actuality they are, respectively, Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha
emanating in the human form of special holy beings. Yet this Lord of Dharma
Protectors exhibited an ability to harm or destroy them, and such events as the
Great Fifth, having been able to summon this Dharmapala to be burned with
intense samadhi but not accomplish it, also shows that the enlightening activities
of these great masters and those of this Dharmapala are each as mutually
universal and pervasive as the other. But some who are narrow minded, not
understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly
being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama,
disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other
and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being
who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and
hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and
creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is
this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special
emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power
to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or
spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external
and internal maras without exception.
Again, some who like to speak illogically say that there is resentment
between this lord of Dharma Guardians and the Great Dharmaraja Nechung and
that it is therefore unsuitable for the Tibetan Government and its workers to rely
upon this Protector.
This is a projection of ordinary faults upon those of high realization, special
Dharmapalas, out of habituation to their own common bad behavior of
competitiveness, prejudice, and harboring of grudges. It simply reveals complete
ignorance of the nature of these Dharmpalas, the extent of their realizations, and
knowledge of what they protect and do not protect. If such Dharmapalas were
motivated by competitiveness, attachment, hatred, and jealousy, how could it be
suitable for those who seek liberation to rely upon and make offerings to them?
This is because not relying upon or associating with vicious worldly gods and
ghosts is one of the precepts of having gone for refuge.
Furthermore, to the common view of beings, it is difficult to fully
understand the appearances of holy great Aryas and their inconceivable three
secrets at the definitive level. Although Buddha Shakyamuni was free of all
dangers, Devadatta firing his catapult at him, wounding him, and he constantly
appeared to compete with and harm Buddha by setting mad elephants upon him
and so forth. Yet glorious Chandrakirti in his Lamp Illuminating Guyasamaja quotes
from the Great Union Tantra called Uncommon Secrets, as follows,
Then, I shall furthermore expound upon the Omniscient One's perfect
entourage. It is like this: Manjusri became King Shuddhodana. Avalokiteswara
became Devi Maha Maya. Sri Devi is Yasodhara. Vajrasattva is Rahula. Sarva
Nivarana Viskambini is Shariputra. Samantabhadra is Stavira Ananda. Indra,
Lord of the Gods, is Stavira Devadatta. Great Vairochana is Samyaksam
Buddha Glorious Shakyamuni. By this principle, Buddha emanates as both the
one around whom the entourage gathers, as well as the entourage, in order to
get sentient beings who are beginners started.
Thus, Devadatta was, himself, said to be an intentional emanation of the Lord of
the Gods, Indra. The holy Dharma of the White Lotus Sutra also states, Bikshus!
At that time, in that life, Devadatta became a wise sage. Bikshus! Devadatta is
even my Spiritual Guide!
and continues up to,
Bikshus! You should admire him! You must understand this! Bikshus!
Limitless countless eons from now, Devadatta, in a world system known as
Staircase of the Devas, will become the Tathagata Arhat Samyaksam Buddha
Devaraja, King of the Devas.
Bikshus! The lifespan of that Tathagata Devaraja shall be twenty intermediate
eons.
Omniscient Kedrubje has said,
For example, in ultimate definitive terms, those such as Legshay Karmal,
Devadatta, and the six non?buddhist teachers, emanated well, in order to
draw out Buddha's greatness.
and also,
Likewise, in other Tantras Buddha himself emanates in sets of six and so forth,
such secrets of the holy great Aryas are difficult to understand. Furthermore,
as is said in the Mahaparanirvana Sutra,
To some in this world of Jambudvipa I shall appear like an obstructive
mara, and sentient beings will be correct in thinking, 'O no! It is an evil
mara!' But, like the lotus that is not stained by the mud of the swamp, I
am not stained by the faults of mara!
Accordingly, if it serves to benefit trainees, Buddhas will even emanate as evil
maras. As is said in that same Tantra again, Likewise, they emanate many forms
out of skillful means. All of them are just in accordance with the needs of the world.
Thus, they are all said to be nothing but displays appearing to the common view of
trainess. In a similar way the Lord of the Devas Indra has emanated as a Brahmin
to put beings such as the Bodhisattva Sadapraruditali though tests such as making
him have to cut off his flesh and bone in offering. The Dharmaraja Songtsen
Gampo emanated people that were executed by other emanated people. In the
previous life stories of Atisha, Dromtonpa, and Kutson Dru Yungdrung, these
three sometimes harmed each other and resented each other while, at other
times, they were close relatives such as father and son, as is clear in the many
accounts recorded in the Kadampa Scriptures.
Even such holy great beings such as Ra Lotsawa, Tanag Golo, and Nyenlo
appeared, to common view, to be Tantric practitioners who were jealous of each
other, some of whom died in conflict of wrathful activities. There are cases such as
these in the life accounts of many previous great beings.
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Very beautiful post. It raises my faith to another level after re-reading this passage here on this post today.
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is himself no other than Vajra Yogini.
I fold my hands to all Enlightened Beings and their emanations.
tk
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Oh yes, it is a wonderful, impeccably classic Mahayana text.
We have said several times in this Forum that Devadatta was a somehow realized being playing the role of a Mara.
If we were to be really intelligent, we might even act as if every single sentient being, to the last of obstructive demons, were a realized being that is playing the role of this and that in order to give me, the only stupid being in the universe left unenlightened, the opportunity to gather merit and become enlightened.
Now does this teach something about our conduct? Oh it certainly does. It teaches us that there are levels in reality and in the teachings comprehending reality: outer, inner and secret.
The problems in this Forum come from not recognizing these levels. And not to acknowledge these levels brings about a great vast disruption and probably the acceleration of the destruction of Buddhadharma.
I would like us all to reflect upon this: outer, inner and secret. By the way, if you are a practitioner you already know it, it´s spelled all over our main ritual text.
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Nice quote. Let us see what it says:
1 - Those who think that DS is a demon, are mistaken. [So far this kind of view has been promulgated mainly by Dalai and his followers.]
2 - Those who think that Dalai or Panchen could be harmed by DS, or any "demon", are mistaken. [So far this kind of view has been promulgated mainly by Dalai and his followers, eventhough Dalai has later recanted.]
3 - Those who say that DS and Nechung have "personal problems between them" are mistaken. [So far this kind of view has been promulgated mainly by Dalai and his followers (and later sadly also by some shugdenites, I must add).]
4 - Sometimes Buddha's followers, the Sangha members, manifest as Stupid Ones, like Indra manisfesting as Devadatta, and later, those same persons will become Great Beings, as all practitioners should. But of course, whether this person was before that, or later becomes something else, means nothing, in an ethical sense. The fact that the Buddha is the ground and principal, means nothing, from the point of view of addressing the choices and actions of the "grounded ones", like, say, Devadatta. Devadatta was surely in the mandala of the Buddha, as he had been traveling the samsara with the Bodhisattva for aeons, but this fact does not have any ethical relevance when it comes to the actions of "devadattaism". And as we all become Buddhas eventually, it cannot be used as an argument of the morality of any action we do today. Josef Stalin becomes a Buddha eventually, but does this mean that killing 30 million humans is an action of a Buddha? Of course not. So who cares what Devadatta becomes later, since the acts he did were unethical.
5 - Sometimes Buddha emanates as the whole setting; both the principal and the entourage. This also, like the point 4, has no ethical implications whatsoever. So even if the Buddha himself would have emanated as the six heretics to show the glory of Dharma, it nevertheless is true that the claims, views, and actions based on those claims and views, were erroneous! That afterall was the whole point in emanating as the six heretics. If a Buddha makes an erroneous action in order to show error, the act remains erroneous eventhough it was made by a Buddha. To maintain an opposite view is to maintain that a Buddha could not manifest as a "mara" or a "devadatta", whereas Tantras and scholars such as Khedrubje just said otherwise in the quote from Trijang. In short: Buddhas cannot show error without doing error. Therefore there is error, as Khedrubje implied.
6 - And so, finally, the main point: If all the previous holds true, then one can say that actions can be judged faulty or unethical irrespective of whether one holds the actor to be faultless or not. As an practical example: One can say that Dalai has practiced wrong speech and wrong action even if one holds him to be Avalokiteshvara. Otherwise one would have to say that it is ethically correct action to try to kill a Buddha, since Devadatta the Emanatee did just that.
blessings and ponderings,
Zhalmed Pawo
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Oh yes................ [snip]....................
Ah, while I was typing, you said the same in so much more eloquent and compact way. Thank you. :D Neato!
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The problems in this Forum come from not recognizing these levels. And not to acknowledge these levels brings about a great vast disruption and probably the acceleration of the destruction of Buddhadharma.
maybe the DL is enlightened, maybe he is not. Either way it is correct to protest. If it is not then why do you protest at our protestations, which you seem to think are also emanations of the enlightened mind produced for your benefit as the last being in samsara? Shouldn't you be in solitary retreat somewhere with this view?
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Oh yeah, I misunderstood what you said a friend, sorry. I think we actually agree. Excuse me for needing it to be spelled out, but you're saying that we hold the secret view of everything arising from bliss & emptiness, but our outer behaviour acts in accordance with outer appearance (ie protesting) while holding the inner motivation of bodhichitta?
Excuse my doofusness.
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Yes, precisely. (But Middleway, you don´t need to apologize).
What I´m trying to say is that in a certain way all parties concerned here are right.
The newbies are right in wishing to uphold the inner and secret views of our system and apply them to the case of the DL: both the Lojong teachings and the Secret Mantra teachings. According to these we can and should view all things as pure, in different ways according to the type of teaching. All of us should do this.
But they are not so right in proclaiming it to the outer world because by doing that they are destroying the basic teachings of Lord Buddha, allowing the world to think that we do not possess the morality of the Muni, the very root of his teachings, the very root of what DUL. ZIN. protects.
On the other hand, the WSS is correctly dealing with outer conventional reality and it should be recognized by all that their actions are needed and correct. (I have some disagreements with WSS that only concern form, effectiveness, not the Dharma).
If we could understand this simple view about outer, inner and secret levels of the teachings then we could have not only truce, as some have been requesting, but a nice agreement. True peace among the followers of Lord Buddha and particularly among the followers of Mañjushri Lobsang Drakpa.
Of course I’m not requesting that everybody here jumps with goose bumps and embraces my suggestion. But I request that it be examined, taken into consideration.
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Yes, it's been stated elsewhere on this forum that the standardisation of a pure view of the DL has contributed greatly to our current problems. Such pure view should be a personal decision taken by a disciple towards his/her Spiritual Guide after long investigation & is not meant to be publicly propagated as a given (I know the DL is very humble with his Western audiences, but his disciples/fans often show misunderstanding of this point regarding pure view & in the exile community & the TGIE in particular there is much blind faith, & I think blatant abuse of this 'pure' view). With my own Spiritual Guide I can say I will never lose faith that he is a pure being, but if he was to engage in actions such as the DL has then I would have to take the same actions as I have taken towards the DL. Internally I would see it all as a perfect lesson from an unsurpassed master, but that's something I would keep to myself & close Sangha. I can say this sincerely because my Spiritual Guide has received much criticism which I have had to check out thoroughly. So I have some appreciation of the heart stopping difficulty of having to confront the possibility that your Spiritual Guide has engaged in wrong actions. One thing that my own experience taught me is that actually I didn't have pure view at all - if I had genuine pure view I would not have been unsettled when making those investigations. What I had was some faith that was mixed with attachment coming from the idea that my Spritual Guide was inherently pure. That attachment pressed me very hard to either stop looking for the truth, give up my refuge altogether, get angry, blame others, make excuses etc etc. Fortunately I was able to keep my eyes open & investigate without bias & come to some happy conclusions, including, most importantly a better understanding of what it really meant to have a Spiritual Guide & how to rely upon that person appropriately & without blind faith.
Excuse the blurb, but my point really is that yes, I agree with you - it is possible to keep faith in the DL for those with genuine, deep pure view born out of clear wisdom, but it is not appropriate to externally promote a view of him as inherently faultless and then to say we should not criticise him or oppose his actions because of this. This is a misunderstanding of pure view & refuge which leads to big problems.
Although I don't agree that the DL's actions are contributing to a renaissance in Dorje Shugden practice through publicising it, I do sometimes wonder whether his actions are providing an opportunity for us to clarify this very point about what constitutes pure view & how to rely correctly, which is so crucial to the flourishing of faith in this world today. This is why I think this current debate is necessary. Even if some people on this forum are not prepared to listen (one thing that misunderstanding pure view breeds is attachment to your own view), then still we have to try & oppose this misunderstanding & provide a correct view as an alternative for those who are prepared to investigate honestly.
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I think, whatever happens, it's possible to view the Dalai Lama's actions as a kindness that can function as the basis for developing our own wisdom about what it means to have pure view and develop faith in a Spiritual Teacher.
One of the ten criteria given in the teachings for accepting that someone is a valid Mahayana Spiritual Guide is that they keep moral discipline. The Dalai Lama has been seen to directly lie and deceive, in contradiction to Buddha's teachings. One of the characteristics of bodhisattvas is that they have no wish to deceive living beings. I see this as a big contradiction, although some will choose to impute a spiritual motivation on the Dalai Lama's actions. It's arguable.
One thing that is not arguable, in my mind, is that the action of undermining faith in one's own Spiritual Guide and the lineage Gurus by saying they were 'wrong' is a virtuous action of a pure Spiritual Guide. How can this ever be transformed into a spiritual action as it seems to contradict Refuge practice itself? The Dalai Lama has clearly undermined both Trijang Rinpoche and Je Pabongkhapa and their students by saying that they were wrong to rely on Dorje Shugden. This, more than anything, puts the 'final nail in the coffin' of my respect for the Dalai Lama and tells me he is not a valid Teacher.
How can this be a spiritual action? If anyone has any input on this, I'd be happy to hear it.
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Dear Lineageholder, I´m sorry if I confused you, it was not my intention. Let me simplify this for you to the max. A practitioner has to deal externally with external conventional reality in accord with our first level of vows; and example of this would be that your public actions have to be in accord with morality. To try and help persecuted people and to try and restore the truth for the minds of others to know it, are perfectly correct moral actions.
When it comes to your own aprehension of the same (mainly your perception of the actions of others) you have to apply both the Lojong and Tantric level of vows, which are not to be proclaimed to the world. You might wish to read for instance the book "Essence of Mahayana Lojong" that Sermey Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tharchin wrote on Geshe Langri Tang Pa´s 8 verses. It´s a tiny book, but a true atomic bomb for our self cherishing mind. There you can develop a pure vision about the actions of others, irregardless of those actions being externally right or wrong, and you keep your pure vision it to yourself.
You keep it to yourself because it contradicts the Lojong vows to proclaim our good actions, and you keep it to yourself because these teachings can cause and imbalance in an immature mind, that is why at the beginning they were kept secret by the first Kadampa Masters. So in a case so sensitive as the public DL´s actions this secrecy about pure view should be kept even more secret, if I can use such repetition, for the reasons I stated in other posts. I hope this helps, if not, please go on talking.
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By the way, I feel that Trijang Rinpoche, in his wisdom, wrote that particular section of his text because he foresaw that this debate re the Dalai Lama's actions would arise amongst Dorje Shugden practitioners. Hence he left these clear teachings for loyal practitioners to realise what is actually happening.
Let's face it - TGIE and Dalai Lama-ites would not read this holy text, or if they did, would not pay much heed to what it said, much less promote the view that Dalai Lama MIGHT have a deeper motivation than simply banning the practice of Dorje Shugden.
WSS has had success in reducing the pressure from TGIE on Dorje Shugden practitioners, but perhaps the same effect could have been achieved in a more positive way like what TK says in this post (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=609.0) rather than accusing the Dalai Lama of being a liar.
Don't misunderstand please. I am not saying that Dalai Lama isnt lying. But there are alternative methods that cause less damage to the institution of the Dalai Lama.
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Yes, precisely. (But Middleway, you don´t need to apologize).
What I´m trying to say is that in a certain way all parties concerned here are right.
The newbies are right in wishing to uphold the inner and secret views of our system and apply them to the case of the DL: both the Lojong teachings and the Secret Mantra teachings. According to these we can and should view all things as pure, in different ways according to the type of teaching. All of us should do this.
But they are not so right in proclaiming it to the outer world because by doing that they are destroying the basic teachings of Lord Buddha, allowing the world to think that we do not possess the morality of the Muni, the very root of his teachings, the very root of what DUL. ZIN. protects.
On the other hand, the WSS is correctly dealing with outer conventional reality and it should be recognized by all that their actions are needed and correct. (I have some disagreements with WSS that only concern form, effectiveness, not the Dharma).
If we could understand this simple view about outer, inner and secret levels of the teachings then we could have not only truce, as some have been requesting, but a nice agreement. True peace among the followers of Lord Buddha and particularly among the followers of Mañjushri Lobsang Drakpa.
Of course I’m not requesting that everybody here jumps with goose bumps and embraces my suggestion. But I request that it be examined, taken into consideration.
Can you please explain further why you consider it inappropriate to promote a pure view openly? And on the other hand, if we only promote the outer view and keep the understanding of the pure view within a select group, we may destroy the reputation of Dalai Lama (our 'outer' representative of Tibetan Buddhism) so much that it is irreparable.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) Dalai Lama has the most influence at this time. Damaging him will damage the face of Buddhism as he is the spiritual leader of Tibet. And the head representatives of the different schools publicly regard him as such. So they are 'buying in to his leadership.
Some form of protests is needed in order to keep the controversy alive and in the public eye. We cannot allow TGIE and the uneducated Dalai Lama-ites to have free rein and do as they please. But I am uncomfortable with the strong anti-Dalai Lama sentiments aired by some on this forum which almost seems to be a refusal to consider any alternative at all. Within this community, I would wish for a more moderate view.
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Dulzin la,
I suggest that you read my last posts about the subject, let's say, since January. Think about them, everything is there.
I wish I had enough time to answer again and again them same points ... But most eveything has been already answered.
Thank you
P.S., Ok, I have a little time now.
The pure view of Tantra is secret as is rything related to Tantra. In this website we have said many times that we do not talk about Tantra, lest we break our tantric vows.
The pure view of the Lojong should not be "promoted" out of context. In the beginning the Lojong teachings were kept secret by the early Kadampa Masters for a good reason.
When you say that the outer view will damage the reputation of the Dalai Lama, well, that is exactly what the WSS wants to do. I personally refused to do that (read the very early posts of this website) until his actions of the unfortunate Winter of 2007/2008. There, even Beggar who entirely shares your view and was the promoter of this view at the time of the inception of the website, even Beggar actively denounced his actions to the world, he was active collecting addresses and such, because he needed to be stopped. And we did stop him. I don't know why some people are refusing to accept that it is the demonstrations of WSS the external factor that allowed the creation of Shar Ganden and Ser Pom, everybody knows that, and that is what the monks and Rinpoches of those monasteries say (at least the ones I know). The Pomra monks from Sera Mey had been alerted by the two abbots of Sera Mey and Sera Jey that the DL wanted them out of the monasteries land and out of India altogether. But the demonstrations of WSS put an end to those main threats. Unfortunately it didn't stop the slander.
Here I am trying, and I think some other people are trying to find some middle way. It's very difficult to do this when people are refusing even to look in the face what the facts were, forget pure view.
I don't have yet a clear idea of how to do this. I think it's not enough that everyone keeps a 100% necessarily his or her view. We have to try and find some points that we might yield to the other side.
Coming back to damaging the reputation of the Dalai Lama. I'm not so worried now about that because the cat has been let out of the bag, the world knows already what he has done and except for some attentive individuals the world couldn't care less. They have invested too much in the Dalai Lama as an icon and they don't like to recognize that they might've misjudged him. So don't overworry about the DL's reputation.
I personally am more worried now for the dammage to Dharma that might come from well intentioned but imho wrong movements like the one the newbies have started here. But then, as I said above, I practically have stated all my good reasons, and it is as useless to state them as it is to write in water. No matter what, again:
A Buddhist should not contradict the external truths of conventional reality, this is just not Dharma. In this respect, I personally concede that in times when there are no immediate threats from the Dalai Lama, one might abstain from talking about his wrong actions. Actually before the Noobs invaded the website ;) I was having my personal "fight" with my WSS friends about this point. But of course the shower of non truths that came with the "nvasion"forced me to the sad task of having again to mention what DL did wrong. Believe me, I was trying to find some consensus about the opposite.
Ok, though. One thing is to shut our mouths up and let him go on with his life and us with ours, and start concentrating again in the teachings, the study, the whole Dharma work that is so urgent to accomplish. Another thing is to sing his lauds. To praise the Dalai Lama for the ban ... this is not Buddhist. One should not oppose conventional external truth, not even in the name of the inner and secret views of our teachings. If you want praise the Dalai Lama for his efforts on behalf of Tibet or for ... I don't know, whatever you wish. But do not praise him for the ban. Whatever view you have that contradicts external correct perception of his actions should be kept to yourself, or among your friends. To do otherwise demolishes the actions of the Buddha, whose basic job was to teach what one has to do and what one should not do. That is the outer view of our teachings. But outer does not mean inferior. It means outer. It is the root of the Buddha's teachings.
I don't know what else to say right now. Again, I don't think you are wrong if you have a pure view about the DL's actions, and we all have to have that pure view if we follow our teachings, but to publicize it is not correct imho.
I hope you can reflect a bit on what I explained. Sorry for being a dumb explainer.
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Within this community, I would wish for a more moderate view.
You can't be moderate about religious persecution. Do you think it would be appropriate to be moderate about Hitler's actions in persecuting the Jews? Some actions are simply evil, and the Dalai Lama' rejection of his pure Teachers' views and his use of Dharma for political power is evil.
It has to be said, we cannot be moderate. We cannot turn away and simply accept what is going on or make excuses for it.
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By Kadampa Geshe Langri Tangpa 1054-1123)
With the determination to accomplish
The highest welfare for all sentient beings
Who surpass even a wish-granting jewel
I will learn to hold them supremely dear.
Whenever I associate with others I will learn
To think of myself as the lowest among all
And respectfully hold others to be supreme
From the very depths of my heart
In all actions I will learn to search into my mind
And as soon as an afflictive emotion arises
Endangering myself and others
Will firmly face and avert it.
I will learn to cherish all beings of bad nature
And those pressed by strong sins and sufferings
As if I had found a precious
Treasure very difficult to find
When others out of jealousy treat me badly
With abuse, slander, and so on,
I will learn to take all loss
And offer the victory to them
When one whom I have benefited with great hope
Unreasonably hurts me very badly,
I will learn to view that person
As an excellent spiritual guide.
In short, I will learn to offer to everyone without exception
All help and happiness directly and indirectly
And respectfully take upon myself
All harm and suffering of my mothers.
I will learn to keep all these practices
Undefiled by the stains of the eight worldly conceptions
And by the understanding all phenomena as like illusions
Be released from the bondage of attachment.
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Thank you Thom for the stanzas of our teacher Geshe Langri Tang Pa.
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Maybe you could send the letter to Administration?
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Don't misunderstand please. I am not saying that Dalai Lama isnt lying. But there are alternative methods that cause less damage to the institution of the Dalai Lama.
I would like to hear what these are.
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Can you please explain further why you consider it inappropriate to promote a pure view openly?
For a starters, the practice of pure view is a Tantric practice, an inner practice, a secret practice in fact, and therefore the contents of it are by definition inappropriate to be expressed openly.
It is a sad thing that these inner things are nowadays proclaimed openly. (Even some DS-practitioners have made "inner statements" about their Gurus in the public, thereby in fact proclaiming something that should not be proclaimed.) All Vajrayanists know this point. Outer view and the secret view are not to be mixed. Only trouble comes, if that is made. And lo, trouble we have. This is the sad fact, caused by Tibetan society, where the private inner visions were made political realities. (I have written abot this issue here before.)
And for the seconds, if you make the pure view into a public stance, you would have to see me, Zhalmed Pawo, as an emanation of your Guru-Buddha, not merely in the secret sense, but also in the "outer realistical sense", for after all, everything is within the mandala of the Guru-Buddha, and therefore pure emanations. If you want to promote the pure view publicly, you can start with me, just now: If your Guru is Avalokiteshvara, then I am truly his emanation! I really am, you see. - And that is why the view must be secret.
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Hi Thom,
Did you mean these?
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re. outer, inner and secret:
as a - fierce - proponent of the "the Dalai Lama is deluded, unholy and lying" viewpoint it might seem odd for me to say this, but in fact i agree absolutely with a friend. here is my view:
outwardly, the Dalai Lama IS lying and we SHOULD destroy his power to harm others and kill our lineage by destroying his reputation. the short-term perceived harm to the reputation of Buddhism is regrettable, but it's as nothing compared to the long-term harm that would arise if we do not. now is the time to show a wrathful face.
inwardly, we must always try, as Lord Buddha, Je Tsongkhapa and our Lamas teach us, to maintain a good heart and to act not to harm others but to protect them from the power of delusion - including those who are harmed and those doing the harming: in this case the Dalai Lama. if we forget our bodhichitta and become not wrathful but angry then we become the destroyers of the Dharma just as much as is the Dalai Lama.
secretly, we hold the view that it is all the nature of enlightened mind: the illusory dance of bliss and emptiness. from this point of view, the Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden, Lord Buddha and we ourselves are all mere manifestations of the Dharmakaya.
it is entirely inappropriate - and it contradicts the very example shown us so clearly by Je Tsongkhapa - to fail to act appropriately, according to the needs of the worldly, with a good heart and instead to tell the world that we are practising a secret view and our inaction in the face of apparent evil is the "Buddhist" way.
of course it's all empty! of course i pray for the Dalai Lama's happiness and freedom! of course i stand up and shout and will continue to do so for as long as the outer situation demands it!
i accept this secret view, but i do not accept the apparent confusion concerning how to practise integrating the outer, inner and secret views that appears (to my faulty and ill-controlled mind) to be espoused here by some of us.
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Thom
When you left click on the images they show at their full size. If you right click on the image, save image as, then open it in a image viewer you will be able to zoom in on them.
Cheers
Dunc
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Atisha´s Cook: why is it odd that you agree with me, pray? :( I´ve been duelling to defend the position of WSS for so long, even though I never made it a secret that some formal things I don´t like but who cares ... I didn´t know that I was some type of outcast that it´s odd to be in agreement with ... :'( :P 8) ;) :) ;D
But back to our matter: if we all could agree on this, on applying the levels of outer, inner and secret, we might find some peace among the Protector´s practitioners, don´t you think?
Not everybody has the same level of knowledge, though, so maybe with some patience, explaining time and again, this could be brought about. Or so I hope. Little by little.
Thank you for trying to understand.
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a friend -
not at all - i'm almost always in complete agreement with you, in fact! i meant that it might appear odd to some of those having difficulty with this idea, particularly as i've so strongly opposed the seeming mixing of outer and secret views that i've been seeing in many of the newcomers' posts.
i think that this very mixing, or inappropriate grasping at the secret view, has been the downfall of so many practitioners and teachers - believing that "because my Guru is a Buddha he is infallible and even if he asks me to commit murder or engage in sexual misconduct it must be a compassionate act and it's therefore ok". we've all seen this problem and i think westerners like myself are particularly susceptible to it at the beginning of our spiritual path. it is so hard to find a pure Teacher, and so hard to understand how to rely on him or her correctly! but this is nothing to the pain of having that most sacred of trusts broken by the very person we previously revered. unless we have a profound understanding of the nature of the definitive Guru then such a thing can completely destroy us, or lead us into some profoundly unwholesome behaviours.
thank you for seeking a meeting ground for the differing views put forward on this forum. i know i can be blunt with the noobs and with any dangerous or divisive view, but i'm blunt with a good heart, i hope. may we all develop and maintain pure compassion and stainless wisdom: to act correctly according to appearances, with a pure motivation, whilst secretly seeing it all as a blissful, empty manifestation of the Guru!
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re. outer, inner and secret:
as a - fierce - proponent of the "the Dalai Lama is deluded, unholy and lying" viewpoint it might seem odd for me to say this, but in fact i agree absolutely with a friend. here is my view:
outwardly, the Dalai Lama IS lying and we SHOULD destroy his power to harm others and kill our lineage by destroying his reputation. the short-term perceived harm to the reputation of Buddhism is regrettable, but it's as nothing compared to the long-term harm that would arise if we do not. now is the time to show a wrathful face.
inwardly, we must always try, as Lord Buddha, Je Tsongkhapa and our Lamas teach us, to maintain a good heart and to act not to harm others but to protect them from the power of delusion - including those who are harmed and those doing the harming: in this case the Dalai Lama. if we forget our bodhichitta and become not wrathful but angry then we become the destroyers of the Dharma just as much as is the Dalai Lama.
secretly, we hold the view that it is all the nature of enlightened mind: the illusory dance of bliss and emptiness. from this point of view, the Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden, Lord Buddha and we ourselves are all mere manifestations of the Dharmakaya.
it is entirely inappropriate - and it contradicts the very example shown us so clearly by Je Tsongkhapa - to fail to act appropriately, according to the needs of the worldly, with a good heart and instead to tell the world that we are practising a secret view and our inaction in the face of apparent evil is the "Buddhist" way.
of course it's all empty! of course i pray for the Dalai Lama's happiness and freedom! of course i stand up and shout and will continue to do so for as long as the outer situation demands it!
i accept this secret view, but i do not accept the apparent confusion concerning how to practise integrating the outer, inner and secret views that appears (to my faulty and ill-controlled mind) to be espoused here by some of us.
I think not many of us would disagree with you on this, but we would disagree with you re: how our frustration is being expressed. Of course it is subjective, but it seems like protests from the practitioners' end is turning into anger, more than wrath. That is also based on the assumption that they have attained bodhicitta and their actions arise solely from that.
What I don't like is that parties like the WSS are solely geared at criticising the Dalai Lama, not about spreading right view about Dorje Shugden. Just take a look at their website - it's all about the ban, and little about the practice. What's wrong with a two-pronged approach? Yes, break down the Dalai Lama's reputation if you want to, but what happened to Dorje Shugden? What happened to spreading his practice? The only time his name is mentioned is when it's in connection to how the Dalai Lama is suppressing his practice. Because little is said about Dorje Shugden's practice or lineage, the WSS runs the risk of turning the ban into a Hollywood cause du jour.
By the way, and I do understand (and agree with) the point you're making about correct guru devotion, but I think saying that "i think westerners like myself are particularly susceptible to it at the beginning of our spiritual path" plays into a lot of criticism that we face about being brainwashed by 'evil' lamas like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Gangchen Rinpoche. It's something I've heard again and again, that protestors are Westerners brainwashed into interfering with what is supposed to be a Tibetan issue.
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DharmaDefender -
i quite agree: by all means, please, work to flourish the practice of Dorje Shugden and Je Tsongkhapa's lineage. of course this is important. but the WSS does not exist for this function. it exists - solely - to stop the Dalai Lama's ban from destroying the lineage. in many ways, it is a political activist group in terms of its actions, but the - crucial - difference is that its aim is entirely spiritual. it will dissolve as soon as the Dalai Lama either publicly and effectively revokes his ban and states that Shugden practitioners are Buddhists who should be welcomed back into society, or has the power of his speech to create division entirely destroyed. it does not seek any political aim. however, it is not a spiritual organisation in the sense that it does not exist to teach Dharma or to build Temples, etc., yet of course its aim is spiritual.
i guess that our religious organisations such as Shar Ganden, NKT, etc. are analogous to teaching Buddhas, while WSS is analogous to a Dharma Protector.
also - i have been present at almost all WSS protests and most of the SSC's protests in the 90s and i can tell you from my own experience that while we may not be all of us Bodhisattvas yet these protests have ALL been conducted with happy and compassionate minds, however wrathful we've appeared. the press always seem to photograph us in mid-cry, fists raised, passion on our faces. they never seem to show us cheering and then falling about laughing between choruses, or smiling and sharing sandwiches and juice at lunchtime!
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Outwardly proclaiming pure view (ie going around telling everyone the DL is Avalokiteshvara) can, & does, lead to people viewing others as inherently existent holy beings. This leads to blind faith ("he just is pure, I just am not, therefore he can do no wrong & I do what I'm told unquestioningly"), political abuses (politician: "how great would it be if everyone thought I was infallible & beyond question? Lets set myself up as a Buddha!"), blocked spiritual progress (if there are inherently existent pure beings there are also inherently existent impure beings which probably means me, so why bother applying effort), deferment of responsibility ("I'm rubbish, he's great, let him do all the holy work while I just continue being an idiot"), attachment ("he's soooooooo holy! My happiness comes from him, without him I'd be miserable..."), anger ("I placed all my trust (deferred all my responsibility to) him, now he's not acting in ways I like! Let's crucify him!" or, "that person has spoken against my holy master! Crucify him!") and many, many other delusions (about 84 000 in total I think).
If we indeed hold genuine pure view (I generally assume someone doesn't if they talk about it loosely), then we understand that it is still appropriate to act in accordance with convention, for reasons of example, safety, compassion, wisdom & our own spiritual progress. If Buddha is manifesting as suffering sentient beings for my benefit, then I should relate to them as such and generate compassion. If he manifests as a destroyer of the Dharma for me I should again generate compassion & do what I can to halt those actions. We tried petitions, requests for discussions, chanting mantras etc. & none of it worked, the lineage was getting flushed down the pan. So now we shout. Compassionately, in accordance with the law, both worldly law & the law of Dharma.
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DharmaDefender -
i quite agree: by all means, please, work to flourish the practice of Dorje Shugden and Je Tsongkhapa's lineage. of course this is important. but the WSS does not exist for this function. it exists - solely - to stop the Dalai Lama's ban from destroying the lineage. in many ways, it is a political activist group in terms of its actions, but the - crucial - difference is that its aim is entirely spiritual. it will dissolve as soon as the Dalai Lama either publicly and effectively revokes his ban and states that Shugden practitioners are Buddhists who should be welcomed back into society, or has the power of his speech to create division entirely destroyed. it does not seek any political aim. however, it is not a spiritual organisation in the sense that it does not exist to teach Dharma or to build Temples, etc., yet of course its aim is spiritual.
i guess that our religious organisations such as Shar Ganden, NKT, etc. are analogous to teaching Buddhas, while WSS is analogous to a Dharma Protector.
also - i have been present at almost all WSS protests and most of the SSC's protests in the 90s and i can tell you from my own experience that while we may not be all of us Bodhisattvas yet these protests have ALL been conducted with happy and compassionate minds, however wrathful we've appeared. the press always seem to photograph us in mid-cry, fists raised, passion on our faces. they never seem to show us cheering and then falling about laughing between choruses, or smiling and sharing sandwiches and juice at lunchtime!
But the WSS are only protecting one lineage at the cost of many others. It's been pointed out in the past that the Dalai Lama's image is the gateway for many into Buddhism. Whether they take him as their guru, or whether they become lasting practitioners is another story but many are attracted to Buddhism because of his happy face.
I do like your analogy!
No, you're right, the press never capture the less raucous moments because it never makes for good headline news! :)
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But the WSS are only protecting one lineage at the cost of many others. It's been pointed out in the past that the Dalai Lama's image is the gateway for many into Buddhism. Whether they take him as their guru, or whether they
erm, cause & effect. The WSS are not suppressing Religious freedom, the DL is! I point people again to the recent child abuse scandal in the Irish Catholic church where covering up evil in order to 'protect people's faith' has done just the opposite. What is a cause of breaking faith? What is a cause of faith? Please think through then respond.
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thanks for your message! however, this is completely wrong:
But the WSS are only protecting one lineage at the cost of many others.
by preventing one lineage from being destroyed, we are in fact protecting ALL lineages. if we allow this despot to have his way unopposed, then ALL lineages will suffer. he has already created a huge schism in the Kagyu lineage. he is already being seen - as you say - as the representative and even the head of Buddhism in general globally. a recent conference of heads of many different Buddhist traditions invited him as their head and deferred all their decisions and resolutions to him for his approval. this is unprecedented.
the Gelugpas are simply the biggest and most powerful of the Tibetan schools. he has already almost entirely usurped the power of the Ganden Tripa. by destroying Dorje Shugden he breaks this school and bends it utterly to his will. who then will stand against him?
when i protest his ban, i am defending my lineage. but i am doing so on behalf of ALL living beings, and ALL the many and various valid traditions and schools of Lord Buddha's Dharma.
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when i protest his ban, i am defending my lineage. but i am doing so on behalf of ALL living beings, and ALL the many and various valid traditions and schools of Lord Buddha's Dharma.
I totally agree - me too. Shugden practitioners are unfairly branded as 'sectarian' by the Dalai Lama. This is completely wrong - I pray for the flourishing of all traditions of pure Buddhadharma, the very traditions that will be destroyed by the Dalai Lama's ego game of mixing politics and religion.
As strange as it may seem, the Dalai Lama is actually the biggest threat to pure Buddhadharma. Although the Dalai Lama's picture may attract people to Buddhism, it's only because of what he represents - a pure, happy monk. No doubt those people are experiencing the ripening of imprints from their previous experience of ordained Sangha, but how sad it would be if they were to come to the Dharma only to be used a pawn by the Dalai Lama in his political battles, for example his fight against Dorje Shugden, as has been the case with many of his ardent Western supporters?
This is a cynical abuse of faith and shows that the Dalai Lama is not what he appears to be. His actions are not actually in accordance with his aspect, and he is therefore deceptive. As I said before when asking if the Dalai Lama is a valid Teacher, because he has broken with his Guru, what Buddhism can he give?
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The following is an extract from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors (pg 125 onwards)
- a masterpiece of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and downloadable from this site.
CONCLUSION: PERVASIVE ENLIGHTENED ACTIVITIES
There is something I must mention at this point. As stated above, the Great Fifth
Dalai Lama and Omniscient Panchen Rinpoche were like Lords of the Teachings. In
actuality they are, respectively, Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha
emanating in the human form of special holy beings. Yet this Lord of Dharma
Protectors exhibited an ability to harm or destroy them, and such events as the
Great Fifth, having been able to summon this Dharmapala to be burned with
intense samadhi but not accomplish it, also shows that the enlightening activities
of these great masters and those of this Dharmapala are each as mutually
universal and pervasive as the other. But some who are narrow minded, not
understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly
being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama,
disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other
and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being
who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and
hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and
creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is
this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special
emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power
to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or
spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external
and internal maras without exception.
This is a projection of ordinary faults upon those of high realization, special
Dharmapalas, out of habituation to their own common bad behavior of
competitiveness, prejudice, and harboring of grudges. It simply reveals complete
ignorance of the nature of these Dharmpalas, the extent of their realizations, and
knowledge of what they protect and do not protect.
Furthermore, to the common view of beings, it is difficult to fully
understand the appearances of holy great Aryas and their inconceivable three
secrets at the definitive level. Although Buddha Shakyamuni was free of all
dangers, Devadatta firing his catapult at him, wounding him, and he constantly
appeared to compete with and harm Buddha by setting mad elephants upon him
and so forth. Yet glorious Chandrakirti in his Lamp Illuminating Guyasamaja quotes
from the Great Union Tantra called Uncommon Secrets, as follows,
Then, I shall furthermore expound upon the Omniscient One's perfect
entourage. It is like this: Manjusri became King Shuddhodana. Avalokiteswara
became Devi Maha Maya. Sri Devi is Yasodhara. Vajrasattva is Rahula. Sarva
Nivarana Viskambini is Shariputra. Samantabhadra is Stavira Ananda. Indra,
Lord of the Gods, is Stavira Devadatta. Great Vairochana is Samyaksam
Buddha Glorious Shakyamuni. By this principle, Buddha emanates as both the
one around whom the entourage gathers, as well as the entourage, in order to
get sentient beings who are beginners started.
Thus, Devadatta was, himself, said to be an intentional emanation of the Lord of
the Gods, Indra. The holy Dharma of the White Lotus Sutra also states, Bikshus!
At that time, in that life, Devadatta became a wise sage. Bikshus! Devadatta is
even my Spiritual Guide!
Accordingly, if it serves to benefit trainees, Buddhas will even emanate as evil
maras. As is said in that same Tantra again, Likewise, they emanate many forms
out of skillful means. All of them are just in accordance with the needs of the world.
Thus, they are all said to be nothing but displays appearing to the common view of
trainess. In a similar way the Lord of the Devas Indra has emanated as a Brahmin
to put beings such as the Bodhisattva Sadapraruditali though tests such as making
him have to cut off his flesh and bone in offering. The Dharmaraja Songtsen
Gampo emanated people that were executed by other emanated people. In the
previous life stories of Atisha, Dromtonpa, and Kutson Dru Yungdrung, these
three sometimes harmed each other and resented each other while, at other
times, they were close relatives such as father and son, as is clear in the many
accounts recorded in the Kadampa Scriptures.
Thank you Big Uncle for highlighting this post again on this forum. It gives great inspiration knowing that we are on the right track. I mean I don't agree with Dalai Lama's ban towards our protector never the less to react negatively towards Dalai lama brings us to be as low as those condemning us.
At phayul forum, the moment you open your thoughts, even if you're not condemning the Dalai Lama, the moment you say anything about Dorje Shugden, staright away they say you are WSS/NKT working with the China spreading the CCP Propaganda. I mean how narrow can their minds be. It seems everyone is WSS/NKT/China, it's really ridiculously hillarious to a certain degree. So i hope we don't end up mirroring them.
Besides from I read in the above advice by Trijang Rinpoche, "Accordingly, if it serves to benefit trainees, Buddhas will even emanate as evil maras (this can be applied to the Dalai Lama?). As is said in that same Tantra again, Likewise, they emanate many forms out of skillful means. All of them are just in accordance with the needs of the world."
Never the less I will give credit to WSS's for achieving what they set out to mainly achieve, that is I believe is to stop if not lessen down the TGIE persecution of more DS practitioners? And so there is no need to continue with this "wrathful" methods of shouting is there?
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thanks for your message! however, this is completely wrong:
But the WSS are only protecting one lineage at the cost of many others.
by preventing one lineage from being destroyed, we are in fact protecting ALL lineages. if we allow this despot to have his way unopposed, then ALL lineages will suffer. he has already created a huge schism in the Kagyu lineage. he is already being seen - as you say - as the representative and even the head of Buddhism in general globally. a recent conference of heads of many different Buddhist traditions invited him as their head and deferred all their decisions and resolutions to him for his approval. this is unprecedented.
the Gelugpas are simply the biggest and most powerful of the Tibetan schools. he has already almost entirely usurped the power of the Ganden Tripa. by destroying Dorje Shugden he breaks this school and bends it utterly to his will. who then will stand against him?
when i protest his ban, i am defending my lineage. but i am doing so on behalf of ALL living beings, and ALL the many and various valid traditions and schools of Lord Buddha's Dharma.
Fair enough - I take your point about defending all lineages too, it's a valid one, and I retract most of my own point except to say that the entire responsibility for the problem does not lie with him.
We need to take responsibility for our own actions. No one can cause schism or harm unless they already want to (though we can debate the person's true motivation until the cows come home!). People don't have to follow what the Dalai Lama says, and they don't have to act on his words unless those words are proven valid. Therefore if he has, as you say, created schisms in the Kagyu lineage, it's because there were already people willing to act on his words without thinking. Perhaps having stronger, better informed practitioners is a more effective buffer/defense against schism.
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People don't have to follow what the Dalai Lama says, and they don't have to act on his words unless those words are proven valid. Therefore if he has, as you say, created schisms in the Kagyu lineage, it's because there were already people willing to act on his words without thinking. Perhaps having stronger, better informed practitioners is a more effective buffer/defense against schism.
I understand your general point here DharmaDefender, but just to highlight that not every one has the freedom to just 'not follow what the DL says', at least not without fear of huge reprisal, which is why the WSS & other groups were formed & continue to work to rectify that very situation.
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Dear all,
Just to remind you guys that I posted this excerpt from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's own holy text to proof to you guys there is a point in seeking a middle way between the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden controversy. His words are plain and simple and that is to respect the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden in equal measures. However, I am not saying that we should allow the current situation to continue but I am saying we should protest in a way that will lift the ban instead of discrediting the Dalai Lama so much.
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.........However, I am not saying that we should allow the current situation to continue but I am saying we should protest in a way that will lift the ban instead of discrediting the Dalai Lama so much.
Yes but, well uh... how do you propose we might do that? Really. I'm not asking this in some general sense, but would like to hear real suggestions. Concrete solutions.
I mean, how can you, me, or anyone else, stop the anti-DS activities of the DL without somehow implicating that the DL is a mistaken ballyhoo-master? He has, afterall, been very explicit in his views on this issue, and has refused discussing about the whole thing, so tell me now, how could we turn his head. He lives in an ivory tower, not hearing any of the grunt of the common practitioner. If our voice is not heard "up there", maybe the only way is to drag "the up" down here. For a discussion to happen, the tower must fall, since the telephone lines do not work, thanks to the "resident tower master".
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.........However, I am not saying that we should allow the current situation to continue but I am saying we should protest in a way that will lift the ban instead of discrediting the Dalai Lama so much.
Yes but, well uh... how do you propose we might do that? Really. I'm not asking this in some general sense, but would like to hear real suggestions. Concrete solutions.
I mean, how can you, me, or anyone else, stop the anti-DS activities of the DL without somehow implicating that the DL is a mistaken ballyhoo-master? He has, afterall, been very explicit in his views on this issue, and has refused discussing about the whole thing, so tell me now, how could we turn his head. He lives in an ivory tower, not hearing any of the grunt of the common practitioner. If our voice is not heard "up there", maybe the only way is to drag "the up" down here. For a discussion to happen, the tower must fall, since the telephone lines do not work, thanks to the "resident tower master".
Why speak to him when we can speak to the common practitioner? I understand the purpose of the protests but calling the Dalai Lama a liar outside one of his talks antagonises the people who attend them. As a general example (I'm not referring to you specifically!), if you feel personally attacked when someone defends the Dalai Lama because of how much hurt he has caused you, think about how attacked they feel when someone insults him to their faces...it immediately causes their minds and ears to close. Perhaps engage in dialogue with THEM rather than the Dalai Lama.
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Perhaps engage in dialogue with THEM rather than the Dalai Lama.
they haven't got the power to lift the ban.
Big Uncle - you have to read Trijang Rinpoche's text carefully, considering the context. what do you think would have happened if he'd said: "go ahead and criticise him"? read between the lines. it's a text about Dorje Shugden's enlightened nature, in direct contradiction to the Dalai Lama's professed view. of course he had to include that stuff abou the DL, or the text would have immediately been banned and he would have been in big trouble.
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Perhaps engage in dialogue with THEM rather than the Dalai Lama.
they haven't got the power to lift the ban.
Big Uncle - you have to read Trijang Rinpoche's text carefully, considering the context. what do you think would have happened if he'd said: "go ahead and criticise him"? read between the lines. it's a text about Dorje Shugden's enlightened nature, in direct contradiction to the Dalai Lama's professed view. of course he had to include that stuff abou the DL, or the text would have immediately been banned and he would have been in big trouble.
Of course they do. Practice is personal responsibility right? And politics is a collective one? If enough people take personal responsibility not to harm others who disagree with their view, and take a collective responsibility to ignore any calls for suppression of DS, it could go away. Perhaps that's a naive view I'm taking but solidarity over an issue can lead to positive results - just look at how India gained their independence, or how apartheid ended.
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Why speak to him when we can speak to the common practitioner? I understand the purpose of the protests but calling the Dalai Lama a liar outside one of his talks antagonises the people who attend them. As a general example (I'm not referring to you specifically!), if you feel personally attacked when someone defends the Dalai Lama because of how much hurt he has caused you, think about how attacked they feel when someone insults him to their faces...it immediately causes their minds and ears to close. Perhaps engage in dialogue with THEM rather than the Dalai Lama.
Nice idea, but then... uh?! Are you serious, or what? The yap-yap is not meant to be heard directly by either Saruman or the Uruk-Hai.
1 - The DL does not listen in any case, since he resides in the Tower. He has been talked to, but he has refused to talk back in any meaningful way, over three decades. All the yap-yap currently by certain parties is not directed to him, since he is beyond all the voices, having himself cut the telephone lines. The yap-yap is meant to be heard where it is heard, namely, in the foundational structures of the Tower.
2 - But also, if one directly communicates with the general DL audience, one will have no real human response, since those people have at that moment two communication lines: one leading to the top of the Tower, and one leading to us maggots in the gutter. Who will they listen? Think about it. They will listen Saruman. The Uruk-Hai will not listen us Rohirrim. I do know this. Seen that, done that.
3 - The only option is that one tells to all the Free Men of the West, that Saruman is treacherous, whereby one can take the support and supply away from the Isengaard. Neither the Uruk-Hai nor the common people can affect the decisions made in the Iron Tower, but the power of the tower can be taken away by letting the Tower Master to sit alone, all alone. But that requires something specific from our side, you see - the common people, the "free men of the West", will sadly not disregard Isengaard's evil commandements as long as Saruman is seen as the White Wizard, as the Good Guy! Therefore the treachery must be voiced as treachery, for the commoners to ignore the treacherous policies.
;D
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Perhaps engage in dialogue with THEM rather than the Dalai Lama.
they haven't got the power to lift the ban.
Big Uncle - you have to read Trijang Rinpoche's text carefully, considering the context. what do you think would have happened if he'd said: "go ahead and criticise him"? read between the lines. it's a text about Dorje Shugden's enlightened nature, in direct contradiction to the Dalai Lama's professed view. of course he had to include that stuff abou the DL, or the text would have immediately been banned and he would have been in big trouble.
Of course they do. Practice is personal responsibility right? And politics is a collective one? If enough people take personal responsibility not to harm others who disagree with their view, and take a collective responsibility to ignore any calls for suppression of DS, it could go away. Perhaps that's a naive view I'm taking but solidarity over an issue can lead to positive results - just look at how India gained their independence, or how apartheid ended.
Everything is impermanent - and that gives me solace every day because it means that the ban against Shugden will change in the future. I'm sure that Nelson Mandela always believed that apartheid would end even though thousands didn't. Likewise Gandhi believed in getting independence for India - and he did it without violence. So too will Shugden practitioners be able to one day freely practice without fear or favour.
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Dear all,
Just to remind you guys that I posted this excerpt from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's own holy text to proof to you guys there is a point in seeking a middle way between the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden controversy. His words are plain and simple and that is to respect the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden in equal measures. However, I am not saying that we should allow the current situation to continue but I am saying we should protest in a way that will lift the ban instead of discrediting the Dalai Lama so much.
Perhaps it doesn't even have to be that the ban will be lifted so much as it just dies down completely and disappears into an oblivion. If the voices of the other side get louder and bigger, the few little men in the TGIE and their supporters will get smaller and smaller. After all, (and with no disrespect intended), what happens to this ban once the dalai lama passes away? the TGIE are in a shaky place right now and have little control over their own people - nobody listens to anyone but the Dalai Lama right? While that could seem like a "bad' thing now, that perhaps becomes the best thing when he passes away because then there's no real stronghold to keep that ban going.
So, I think that AS WELL AS highlighting what is going on at the moment and being aware of the current situation, we need to begin to prepare for a future when there is no more ban... and that involves how we will bring Dharma and dorje shugden to others in a more tangible, practical way that is purely about Dorje Shugden himself and his practice/benefits, rather than about just solely banging on and on and on about what the dalai lama is or is not doing and about the ban itself. The ban won't last forever, but Dorje Shugden will - so do we want to spend so much time just talking about what's happening now? Or building a platform for Dorje Shugden to arise bigger and brighter than ever in the (very near) future?
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Of course they do. Practice is personal responsibility right? And politics is a collective one? If enough people take personal responsibility not to harm others who disagree with their view, and take a collective responsibility to ignore any calls for suppression of DS, it could go away. Perhaps that's a naive view I'm taking but solidarity over an issue can lead to positive results - just look at how India gained their independence, or how apartheid ended.
Yes. But how to achieve all that?
If the DL would simply proclaim, that no DS-practitioner is to be harmed, ostracized, bullied, etc, maybe it could come to pass.
And if not that, if people, by their own wits and knowledge of Dharma, would just disregard the DL issued ban and ostracism, it might come to pass.
But as the DL is relentless, and as the people like to bully and suppress, it continues.
So as you said, your view just could be a naive view (sadly). The solidarity expressed in the TB-circles is nothing more than a blind totalitarian adherence to the Dictates of the Party. (Quoting the DL: "Yes, it will be just like the Cultural Revolution!")
:(
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Yes. But how to achieve all that?
If the DL would simply proclaim, that no DS-practitioner is to be harmed, ostracized, bullied, etc, maybe it could come to pass.
And if not that, if people, by their own wits and knowledge of Dharma, would just disregard the DL issued ban and ostracism, it might come to pass.
But as the DL is relentless, and as the people like to bully and suppress, it continues.
So as you said, your view just could be a naive view (sadly). The solidarity expressed in the TB-circles is nothing more than a blind totalitarian adherence to the Dictates of the Party. (Quoting the DL: "Yes, it will be just like the Cultural Revolution!")
One way we can do this is by spreading dorje shugden practice to new people! The more people practicing will create the cause for Dorje Shugden practice to be mainstream/world reknown that TGIE cannot just disregard the world. China has 1.3billion people. Eventually the whole of China will be practicing Dorje Shugden or would have heard of it and it becomes part of China's culture/religion. They will probably proclaim it to be their religion (which has started already) and soon enough Dorje Shugden practice becomes mainstream. Other superpower countries who will have too much to risk to upset China will probably support this as China promotes it so widely .
We're not Tibetans and we don't need to succumb to the Dalai Lama's ban. We can post about Dorje Shugden practice via facebook/twitter etc and guide them to many of the fabulous dorjeshugden site like this one. That is one way we can preserve this precious protector practice :)
As for the Tibetans we need to highlight on what they should be focusing on what the TGIE have not done for them and talk about the fact that their state oracle have not been successfully giving correct prophesies. The Tibetan youths are getting very fed up with Dalai lama's middle way and in fact they are starting to take matters into their own hands. You can see this in their many postings in phayul forums and even youtube videos.
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No. No public promoting of the Dharma Protectors, thank you. We are not talking about Jesus and Pals here.
Furthermore, your suggestion seems to make the whole issue a mega-political one, having to do with the global superpowers and so forth. No good, not at all.
Do you have any other ideas? Buddhist ones?
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I think if we were to live during the Buddha's time and experience what Devadatta had done to the Buddha and entire Buddhist community, being the ignorrant person whom we are, we wont be able to understand why they bear such personalities and why are they doing such.
similarly, now that people 'see' that Dorje Shugden is causing harm, their focus will be on the harm done and not the benefit or actual person which will benefit them in the end.
one plus point is that we have HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to point this out to us. Back during Buddha's time, Buddha can't be pointing at his assasin saying that he's Indra. That would only spoil the plot, won't it? lol
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Anyway, wouldn't it be nice if this extract be posted on the website. I think a lot of people would find the word so of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche comforting and reassuring for many viewers of this website.
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Great point dsnowlion: one effective way of having Dorje Shugden practice flourish is through new practitioners who have not been entangled in the politics of this matter.
Starting on a clean slate (on minds that are not tainted by the controversy) by developing strong faith in Dorje Shugden amongst new practitioner with complete focus on the benefits of his pure practice will be much swifter than trying to undo what has been done. As more and more practitioners engage in Dorje Shugden practices, merits are accumulated and the cause for The Great King's practice to rise into mainstream practice again is created.
After reading through the comments, there are, in general 2 approaches to have Dorje Shugden practice grow:
1) The method to actively opposes the Dalai Lama
2) The method to focus on the benefits of our Protector instead of the "bad" of Dalai Lama (aligned with Trijang Rinpoche's advise)
Although I am for approach 2, I see harmony in the two efforts because both contribute towards progress to having Dorje Shugden worship to flourish to benefit all sentient beings. Working in parallel does speed up the process!
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After reading through the comments, there are, in general 2 approaches to have Dorje Shugden practice grow:
1) The method to actively opposes the Dalai Lama
2) The method to focus on the benefits of our Protector instead of the "bad" of Dalai Lama (aligned with Trijang Rinpoche's advise)
Dear Lee Dhi,
Thank you for following the advice to read the older posts. I have something to tell you about the conclusions that you elicit from them. We never intended in this website to have Dorje Shugden practice grow through a method that actively opposes the Dalai Lama.
In a general way we don´t have a direct purpose to have the practice of our Protector grow per se. What we aspire to is to see the teachings of our Lord Tsonkhapa disseminated and practiced. For this we need to help the Lamas of the lineage to survive in conditions conducive for teaching the teachings of Je Rinpoche.
And for this to happen, for them to survive for instance in the monasteries we need to constantly provide a shield against the power of the Dalai Lama, who would like to see all the people of the lineage stop the practice or be silenced --for instance sending most monks back to Tibet, to their families, not to monasteries. With very few monks and Lamas, how are the teachings of Lord Tsongkhapa going to be disseminated? So the actions "actively opposing the Dalai Lama" have nothing to do with the purpose of disseminating Dorje Shugden practice, they are directed to the protection of the lineage, the monasteries, the monks, in order that the salvific teachings of Lord Tsongkhapa, that very essence of all the teachings of Lord Buddha, survive this persecution and be disseminated in the world through pure transmissions.
Lord Dorje Shugden is the same divine entity under the form of a Protector and he is helping all practitioners in their practice and also all conditions in the external world to be the less dammaging and the best possible in this samsara. His practice will grow with the dissemination of Lord Tsongkhapa´s teachings. Lord Dorje Shugden is the special Protector of Je Tsongkhapa´s teachings.
About this advice that Kyabje Rinpoche gave to somebody we are not talking here about teachings to follow. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche never talked publicly of this matter so what he said was addressed to specific persons in circumstances that we don´t know of in actuality. We don´t know the context. So this is not a teaching, this is not a Dharma advice addressed to us. My Lama was supremely close to him and never said a word about such advice, so this is not a general all encompassing advice. We don´t even know the exact words that he might´ve pronounced, let alone the exact meaning. So nobody here is disobeying our lineage Guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. I ask everybody not to imply this because it is not true.
And believe me, there´s not such thing as "focusing in the bad Dalai Lama". We would like so much to have all our people protected and forget about the ban. As long as the people and the teachings are threatened we have at least to remain alert.
In the meantime, let´s all pray for the Dalai Lama´s long life and good health, and that he changes his mind or at least does not attack anymore our precious treasury of Dharma: the teachings and the people who uphold them.
Let me also express my appreciation for your good heart, for your intense desire to elicit good from whatever comes. This is very precious and very commendable.
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By Kadampa Geshe Langri Tangpa 1054-1123)
With the determination to accomplish
The highest welfare for all sentient beings
Who surpass even a wish-granting jewel
I will learn to hold them supremely dear.
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Thank you Thom for posting the 8 verses of Mind Transformation. As difficult as it is with the ban, i pray that we will be able to allow the essence of these verses to seap into our mindstream and live it out.
Thank you for all your wonderful,inspiring encouraging, thought provoking postings.
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Song Of The Mystic Experiences Of Lama Je Rinpoche
By Jamyang Choje Tashi Palden (1379-1449)
Written at Drepung Chokyi Dechen at the request of the two meritorious Drungtrapa Palzangpo brothers, by Lama Tashi Palden, a Buddhist monk and teacher who had searched many hundreds of thousands of scriptures with the lights of his wisdom.
O sun-like Prince of the Conqueror,
Whose wisdom, vast as the heavens,
Has the brilliance of knowledge
That sees what ultimately is
And what merely seems to be;
O Venerable Lord of Dharma, Most Perfect Guru,
The dust of your feet I place
On the crown of my head.
Even the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas,
Who fill the ten directions,
Cannot describe the excellence
Of your body, speech and mind;
Yet out of passionate inspiration
I shall sing of them; pray,
Listen for but a few moments.
As a blossoming garland of flowers
To adorn the necks of the clear-minded,
And as a precious jewel
To enhance the force of conviction,
This song in praise of your oceans of splendour
To delight all sages, I have composed.
Like a cloud, the merit of your superb deeds
Releases a torrent of rain that swells
The virtue of those to be trained,
And proclaims with a dragon’s thundering roar
The sweetness of the vast and profound;
O glorious, powerful, billowing Lama.
Foremost of tantric adepts, the mighty yogi
Who mastered the many millions of samadhis,
Composed faultless expositions,
And made true effort in practice,
Most resplendent of Lamas,
You tower over the heads of all.
At Vajrasana in a former birth,
To the Victorious One you offered
A rosary of one hundred crystal beads.
Thus you acquired the fortune
Later to attain the perfect view;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
At the age of seven you directly perceived
Dipamkara Atisha, the great Path Clearer,
And Vajrapani, Lord of the Secret.
The exhortations of both the sutras
And tantras dawned upon you;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
O Jetsun, Lord of phenomenal existence,
You directly perceived Manjushri,
Bodhisattva of the wisdom of emptiness,
Seated in a radiant aura as blue
As the colour of a perfect sapphire;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
From this time onward, O High One,
Whenever desired, you could invoke
Manjushri, Treasure of Stainless Wisdom,
And constantly listen to the teachings
Of both Sutrayana’s Transcendent Wisdom
And Tantrayana’s Secret Assembly;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
When practising the seven-limbed ritual
Of the thirty-five Purification Buddhas,
Continually and clearly you beheld them
And all their forms, mudras and symbols;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Seated in the auspicious posture,
Hands in the Dharma-teaching mudra,
Buddha Maitreya prophesied that,
Just as the Sugatas who possess the ten powers,
You will one day perform the twelve acts
Of a supreme, universal teacher;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Victorious Master of both life and death,
Truth visions you received
Of Amitabha Buddha, the Medicine Buddhas,
And that teacher of men and gods,
Shakyamuni, Prince of the Shakya Throne,
Each with a retinue vast as the oceans;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Saintly Tara, source of all siddhis,
Ushnisha Vijaya, the one exalted and radiant,
Ushnisha Sitatapatra, dispeller of obstacles,
And other such mystic female Buddhas
Again and again you directly perceived;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Bodhisattva Nagarjuna, Aryadeva, Holy Buddhapalita,
Magnificent Chandrakirti and the mighty yogi Nagabodhi
Appeared, then constantly cared for you.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Exalted Asanga, who delights the three worlds,
The Brother, Vasubandhu, a Second Buddha,
And Dignaga, child of Manjushri,
Appeared, then constantly cared for you;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Dharmakirti, a moon amongst teachers,
As well as Gunaprabha, Shakyaprabha,
Shantideva and the glorious Abhaya,
Appeared, then constantly cared for you;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
All the mahasiddhas of India and Tibet,
Such as Indrabudhi, Saraha, Luipa,
Krisnacharin, Tilbupa, Tilopa and Naropa
Appeared, then constantly cared for you;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Clearly Manjushri prophesied
That, relying upon these lineages,
You would produce colossal spiritual boons
For youself and for all sentient beings.
Great Bold One who spontaneously
Fulfills the wishes of the world;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
When the samadhi of the yoga combining
Mental tranquility with cognition of emptiness
Increased like the waxing moon,
You beheld the form of the Destroyer
Yamantaka, “Opponent of the Lord of Death”,
Complete with all mudras and expressions.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Having touched your heart
To the wisdom sword of Manjushri,
A stream of undefiled ambrosia
Flowed into the depth of your being,
Spontaneously arousing the propitious
Absorption of highest joy.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Prayer for Rebirth in the Land of Bliss
And An Eulogy of the Perfect Intent
Of the Dauntless Protector Maitreya Buddha
As well as their graduated levels of meaning
Manjushri lucidly conveyed to you,
Who recorded and skillfully presented them;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Whenever you consecrated a religious image,
The Wisdom Beings actually entered
Into the Symbolic Beings.
This host of deities that you summoned
Still generates fields of merit within beings;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
One night you dreamed of Nagarjuna
And his five spiritual sons
Amongst themselves discussing
The fabric of dependent origination.
From their midst came Buddhapalita,
Who touched you with a scripture.
The very next day within you
Rose the mind of a High One;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
By focusing on the pith of the six branches
Of Kalachakra, “The Wheel of Time”,
You directly perceived his Buddha-form.
He foretold that soon you
Would equal even King Suchandra;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
When for the first time you led
The Great Prayer Festival of Lhasa,
A hundred magical omens appeared,
At your making this joyous offering,
The Buddhas and their sons in the ten directions
Were filled with supreme delight.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Generating the form of a great-bliss deity
Through the yoga of the non-duality
Of profound luminosity and illusory appearances,
You attained the vajrayoga body;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
By practicing the mantric science of inhaling
And exhaling OM AH HUM on the lotus heart,
The vital energies entered the central nadi,
Rested as breathing stopped, and then dissolved.
Thus you experienced the clear light,
Mahamudra, the great seal,
Attaining the vajrayoga speech;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Raising the navel chakra’s mystic heat
Which rests at the base of the central channel,
The letter HAM at the crown of your head
Melted and fell to your heart
As simultaneously the experience
Of the blisses dawned upon you.
Thus you attained the vajrayoga mind;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Having been invoked as witnesses
To your pure and perfect aspirations,
All Buddhas and Bodhisattvas came forth.
Only when you had summoned each of them
Into his respective position
Did you honour them with offerings;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
While contemplating the principal mandala
Of Manjushrivajra, Guhyasamaja,
You dreamed that Maitreya and Manjushri,
Who were speaking of Dharma, passed down to you
A jeweled vase brimming with water,
Portending that you would master all teachings.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
On a throne adorned with precious gems
Sat the omniscient Kargyu Lama
Buton Rinchen Trub.
A text of the Guhyasamaja Root Tantra
He gave to you, exhorting
You to be its keeper;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Accepting this responsibility
With mudras and mantras thrice
You touched the text to your head.
By its blessings it became obvious
That the tantra Separating and Mixing,
Obtained by Marpa of the Southern Hills,
Is the true oral tradition of Exalted Nagarjuna;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Your mind absorbed in the mystic circle of Heruka –
Chakrasambara, the Wheel of Perfect Bliss – myriads
Of dakinis of the outer, inner and secret places
Made you offerings of vajra songs,
Transporting you in ecstasy;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
In meditation destroying the forces of darkness,
You beheld the radiant Buddha, Mighty Demon Tamer,
Having an aura as pure as burnished gold,
More brilliant than a million suns.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
Your being having become indivisible from
The body, speech and mind of all Buddhas,
The might of the power of evil was subdued.
As the Dharma protectors crushed the demon families,
Shrieks of the defeated satanic forces
Resounded across the universe.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
These multitudes of Dharma protectors,
That you brought under control,
In a previous aeon had been subjected
By Buddha Vajradhara to guard your doctrine.
With profound reverence they work this still;
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
That you would, after entering parinirvana,
Sit in the presence of Dauntless Maitreya
In Tushita, Pure Land of Joy,
And would be known as Wisdom Essence
Was, O Lord of Life, rightly prophesied
By both Manjushri and Vajrapani.
O Illustrious Lama, at your feet I pay homage.
By the strength of this eulogy
Sung from the depths of pure love,
May the afflictions of beings
Limitless as the sky be extinguished.
In this and all future lives
May all be nurtured by true teachers
And embraced by the sacred Dharma.
May the innate wisdom of great bliss
Rain throughout the world;
May the stains of erroneously grasping
Mind and its objects be uprooted;
And may all be inspired quickly to become
Like you, a Jetsun Lama.
May the wisdoms of learning, contemplation
And meditation overtake the earth;
May the arts of deliberation,
Debate and composition flourish;
May the ordinary and supreme siddhis
Come to each and every practitioner;
And may all be inspired quickly to become
Like you, a Jetsun Lama.
By the limitless oceans of merit
Of having presented, like Samantabhadra,
Clouds of offerings spanning the skies,
Of having bared every negative imprint
And downfall accumulated since infinity,
Of having rejoiced in the spirituality
Of those on the paths to enlightenment,
And of having beseeched the Lamas
To turn the Wheel of Dharma
And not to enter parinirvana.
May all beings experience peerless samadhi;
May goodness swell like the waxing moon;
And may the doctrine of Omniscient Tzong Khapa
Thrive until time’s end.
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"Where is anger for one freed from anger,
Who is subdued and lives perfectly equanimous,
Who truly knowing is wholly freed,
Supremely tranquil and equipoised?
He who repays an angry man in kind
Is worse than the angry man;
Who does not repay anger in kind,
He alone wins the battle hard to win.
He promotes the weal of both,
His own, as well as of the other.
Knowing that the other man is angry,
He mindfully maintains his peace
And endures the anger of both,
His own, as well as of the other,
Even if the people ignorant of true wisdom
Consider him a fool thereby."
The Buddha
Compassion is a priority
Compassion is not for others.
It is not something to read about or admire.
It is not something to praise.
It is not a philosophy alone.
It is not a dry ideal state beyond us....
Compassion is a priority and a way of life we have to embody daily.
It can be hard or easy,
depending on how much we want it,
and realize others need it.
Tsem Tulku
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"Where is anger for one freed from anger,
Who is subdued and lives perfectly equanimous,
Who truly knowing is wholly freed,
Supremely tranquil and equipoised?
He who repays an angry man in kind
Is worse than the angry man;
Who does not repay anger in kind,
He alone wins the battle hard to win.
He promotes the weal of both,
His own, as well as of the other.
Knowing that the other man is angry,
He mindfully maintains his peace
And endures the anger of both,
His own, as well as of the other,
Even if the people ignorant of true wisdom
Consider him a fool thereby."
The Buddha
Compassion is a priority
Compassion is not for others.
It is not something to read about or admire.
It is not something to praise.
It is not a philosophy alone.
It is not a dry ideal state beyond us....
Compassion is a priority and a way of life we have to embody daily.
It can be hard or easy,
depending on how much we want it,
and realize others need it.
Tsem Tulku
Amongst the darkness, confusion and chaos...
emerges a light of wisdom that transcends everything.
I like this quote very much as it helps us reflect on our motivations and actions.
Thank you LG for always posting such interesting words of wisdom.
It helps keep us all sane.
It would be nice to know where you are also extracted these quotes :)
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Great point dsnowlion: one effective way of having Dorje Shugden practice flourish is through new practitioners who have not been entangled in the politics of this matter.
I wonder what is going to be more shocking for these new practitioners: finding out the truth of the politics on a website or being spit on and cursed when they naively mention their lama's name to a Tibetan they happen to be conversing with.
Honestly I do not think new practitioners would want get themselves involve in any politics. That is the least thing they'd expect of want when they embark on a spiritual journey. If they can learn about Dorje Shugden, does his practice and gain the benefits from there I think would help them to seal their faith in Dharma and help them grow in their spiritual paths.
Most of them do not care much about Tibetan politics unless they are told so. Even then it is hard for people to really grasp and feel sympathetic towards their cause because sorry to say this is "samsara" and many are more worried about their own current stress, hence no need to add more unnecessary stress, they say. These are newbies in general that I know and we cannot expect them to think more as they are not at that level yet.
So shouldn't we protect their minds, because by protecting their minds we are helping to nurture their spiritual path until they are strong enough to face such unfortunate disturbing news.
We cannot control everyone, if the pro-DL people wants to destroy their own reputation by spitting on Shugdenpas, then it we know Dharma it just clearly shows their afflictive emotions and obviously they do not have Dharma. How can we stop them? I doubt fighting fire with fire will make the fire smaller for this is not we are encouraged to do in Dharma.
Besides what is it that is so difficult for us to listen to good advice especially when it is coming from HH Trijang Dorje Change?
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So, the Buddha himself said that we should first analyze his teachings and once we are convinced of their validity then put them into practice.
We should not just blindly follow what he said simply because he said it.
It also says in the teachings that you should not simply rely on the person giving Dharma teachings but on the Dharma itself.
In other words, you should base your practice on valid teachings of the Buddha and the previous pundits’ and yogis’ commentaries on those teachings.
Moreover, you should practice according to your own capacity.
Just because something is called Buddhism or Buddhist meditation doesn’t mean that you should necessarily put it into practice.
Of course, your practice should be based on valid teachings of the Buddha and the ancient Indian pundits’ and yogis’ commentaries, but even then you should just practice according to your own capacity.
As Jimmini Cricket said, "Let your conscience be your guide." We all know that once we step outside the shadow of the lama, what is right and what is wrong. Lord Buddha never ever said to hurt and manipulate others for your own agendas. In fact he encouraged people to be nice and love one another.
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Great point dsnowlion: one effective way of having Dorje Shugden practice flourish is through new practitioners who have not been entangled in the politics of this matter.
I wonder what is going to be more shocking for these new practitioners: finding out the truth of the politics on a website or being spit on and cursed when they naively mention their lama's name to a Tibetan they happen to be conversing with.
Honestly I do not think new practitioners would want get themselves involve in any politics. That is the least thing they'd expect of want when they embark on a spiritual journey. If they can learn about Dorje Shugden, does his practice and gain the benefits from there I think would help them to seal their faith in Dharma and help them grow in their spiritual paths.
Most of them do not care much about Tibetan politics unless they are told so. Even then it is hard for people to really grasp and feel sympathetic towards their cause because sorry to say this is "samsara" and many are more worried about their own current stress, hence no need to add more unnecessary stress, they say. These are newbies in general that I know and we cannot expect them to think more as they are not at that level yet.
So shouldn't we protect their minds, because by protecting their minds we are helping to nurture their spiritual path until they are strong enough to face such unfortunate disturbing news.
We cannot control everyone, if the pro-DL people wants to destroy their own reputation by spitting on Shugdenpas, then it we know Dharma it just clearly shows their afflictive emotions and obviously they do not have Dharma. How can we stop them? I doubt fighting fire with fire will make the fire smaller for this is not we are encouraged to do in Dharma.
Besides what is it that is so difficult for us to listen to good advice especially when it is coming from HH Trijang Dorje Change?
Are we still debating the validity of strong actions such as protest here? The posts are getting a bit wooly so excuse me if I've got the wrong end of the stick. But if it is then here's some points in response to the above post:
If the DL is successful in his actions there will be no opportunity for us to spread Dharma to people as we will not be considered Buddhist.
How do you protect new practitioners minds from something that is spread all over the internet? I found out about it after practising for 3 months. I agree not to force the issue - but neither can we duck it.
"We cannot control everyone, if the pro-DL people wants to destroy their own reputation by spitting on Shugdenpas..."
Most karma ripens in future lives - to get the karma of their reputation being destroyed ripening now takes a bit of action. Otherwise people will happily believe the DL & DS practice will sink without a trace.
We are not fighting fire with fire when we speak out strongly. The DL's actions are deluded - ours are motivated by compassion - I believe this for everyone I know to be involved in protest anyway.
A different interpretation of Ven. Trijang's advice can be found earlier in this thread.
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Oh yeah - and that speech from Lama Zopa is a guilt trip & he should be ashamed. There's some good discussion on a part of it going on in the 'Buddha chose Hinduism as "wrong path" to teach us a lesson?' in case anyone hadn't noticed.
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4 - Sometimes Buddha's followers, the Sangha members, manifest as Stupid Ones, like Indra manisfesting as Devadatta, and later, those same persons will become Great Beings, as all practitioners should. But of course, whether this person was before that, or later becomes something else, means nothing, in an ethical sense. The fact that the Buddha is the ground and principal, means nothing, from the point of view of addressing the choices and actions of the "grounded ones", like, say, Devadatta. Devadatta was surely in the mandala of the Buddha, as he had been traveling the samsara with the Bodhisattva for aeons, but this fact does not have any ethical relevance when it comes to the actions of "devadattaism". And as we all become Buddhas eventually, it cannot be used as an argument of the morality of any action we do today. Josef Stalin becomes a Buddha eventually, but does this mean that killing 30 million humans is an action of a Buddha? Of course not. So who cares what Devadatta becomes later, since the acts he did were unethical.
5 - Sometimes Buddha emanates as the whole setting; both the principal and the entourage. This also, like the point 4, has no ethical implications whatsoever. So even if the Buddha himself would have emanated as the six heretics to show the glory of Dharma, it nevertheless is true that the claims, views, and actions based on those claims and views, were erroneous! That afterall was the whole point in emanating as the six heretics. If a Buddha makes an erroneous action in order to show error, the act remains erroneous eventhough it was made by a Buddha. To maintain an opposite view is to maintain that a Buddha could not manifest as a "mara" or a "devadatta", whereas Tantras and scholars such as Khedrubje just said otherwise in the quote from Trijang. In short: Buddhas cannot show error without doing error. Therefore there is error, as Khedrubje implied.
6 - And so, finally, the main point: If all the previous holds true, then one can say that actions can be judged faulty or unethical irrespective of whether one holds the actor to be faultless or not. As an practical example: One can say that Dalai has practiced wrong speech and wrong action even if one holds him to be Avalokiteshvara. Otherwise one would have to say that it is ethically correct action to try to kill a Buddha, since Devadatta the Emanatee did just that.
Dear Zhalmed Pawo
I've read your post and also A Friend's, especially on the three levels (inner, outer and secret) and got me really thinking...but not able to come to a conclusion.
A Friend advised strongly that we should not make the error to confuse the views between these levels. However, the enlightened ones can emanate in ways to display faults as quoted below from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors. How do we keep watch of our perception to balance between faith in having pure views (secret) vs developing insightful wisdom through analytical contemplation (outer)
As said, because the Buddhas, who have accomplished the welfare of themselves and others, are fully skilled in the means for subduing disciples by way of many and various inconceivable emanations, they sometimes display faults that they do not actually have. They might appear in a lustful form in order to subdue someone with desire, hateful form in order to subdue someone with hate, or ignorant form in order to subdue someone with ignorance. Moreover, they even display the forms of birds, deer, maras, rakshas, the blind or maimed. It is as said in the Meeting of Father and Son Sutra,
Appearing in the guise of Indra or Brahma,
Or sometimes clothed as Maras,
They act for the sake of sentient beings
Though worldly beings are unaware of it.
Some act and dress as women.
There are emanations, as well, in the animal realm.
Acting desirous although they are not,
Showing fear although unafraid,
Acting ignorant, insane, or crippled,
While in fact they are none of these,
In various emanations,
They subdue sentient beings.
sincerely
DSFriend
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Dear DSFriend,
Whoever ever denied that the Buddhas can appear as this or that? Bitches, insane humans, birds, whatever. What they don´t do when they do appear as insane, bad, etc, is to appear simultaneously in the garb of a Buddha. They don´t do that. Imagine the confusion if they did.
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We commit ourselves to the enlightened Dharma Protector, Dorje Shugden. We will remain steadfast without resorting to negative comments or actions towards those who do not agree with us or criticise us.
We will carry out our holy practice peacefully and be REAL Buddhists.
With all the kindness and help that Dorje Shugden has done for my family and I, this is the least I can do for him.
Healing the Wounded Healer,
One Day at a Time !
Vows we remember
In Our Everyday Life
The Ones We Forget
As We Pass by an Unhappy Face
Forgetting to Mirror In Our Smiles
The Secret That Buddha Shared
and Je T'Song Khapa Clarified!
The Love We Give
Is Given In That Moment
With Buddha's Smile
The One All Knowing
of Human Possibilities
and Human Frailities
Accepting with Breathing
In and Breathing Out
It is abstract in the describing
So Simple, the Solution
As to evade the Monkey Mind
Never quite satisfied
We approach the Pearl
With Sticks and Stones
Blinded by the Efferverscent Rainbow Lights
True Lama need no Certificates
True Lamas Guide by their Constantly
Practicing the Dharma
Keeping the Light Bright
For us in the Twilight Zone
What we see
Is where we go
Follow the Bright Light
The Warm One
That Surrounds Us!
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Thank you, a friend, for 1) the advice and 2) for a clear and logical expression of point of view. It is so wonderful to see that, despite the varying angle we take, we are agreeable on the core motive to have pure Dharma flourish! I actually re-read this thread as it is simply rich with views and information ?
I am beginning to understand a little more about Middleway’s and your view regarding the necessity to keep secret/pure view secret (apologies if I bastardize some of Dharma terms). In upholding the sacredness of the pure view, I read that we should not express openly that DL’s actions cold be part of a bigger picture that could benefit the practice of DS in the long run.
However, as I digest the writings again, the following concern/question arose:
1) As a newbie to Dharma, I searched for information related to the Dharma on the Internet (as many others do) because it is such a rich resource of information that is easily accessible.
2) Surprisingly, many search results listed articles, videos etc related to this major controversy that, generally put, divided the whole Dharma society. Worst of all, the Buddhadharma icon, H.H the 14th Dalai Lama, was the depicted as the main culprit.
3) Due to my low-leveled mind, I started to question and have doubts, not only in DL but the Buddhadharma. Some of my friends in Europe (who read about the WSS demonstrations) also started asking “What is happening?!” I also hear that this controversy caused some individuals who wish to seek spirituality to choose new-age schools instead of Buddhism.
4) Perhaps, because I am very fortunate, I received explanations that there is possibility that all this controversy could be part of a bigger cause that will bring eventual, long term benefits to the Buddhadharma and sentient beings. My faith rose.
Therefore, my question is: “If we “shout” the outer “wrongs” of H.H and uphold the sacredness of the pure view, how do we protect the Dharma in the eyes of new interested Dharma practitioners and spiritual seekers? DharmaDefender shared that the protests are causing some undesired consequence to the Dharma. It would be most sad if we “loose” new Dharma friends because of this controversy, which in secret, may not a controversy.
Perhaps Lhakpa Gyaltshen’s is most accurate in his last posting, the ideal method is to “…practice peacefully and be a real Buddhist.”… “without resorting to negative comments or actions towards those who do not agree with us or criticize us.”
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Therefore, my question is: “If we “shout” the outer “wrongs” of H.H and uphold the sacredness of the pure view, how do we protect the Dharma in the eyes of new interested Dharma practitioners and spiritual seekers? DharmaDefender shared that the protests are causing some undesired consequence to the Dharma. It would be most sad if we “loose” new Dharma friends because of this controversy, which in secret, may not a controversy.
Perhaps Lhakpa Gyaltshen’s is most accurate in his last posting, the ideal method is to “…practice peacefully and be a real Buddhist.”… “without resorting to negative comments or actions towards those who do not agree with us or criticize us.”
The sad fact is, that the conroversy exists. We cannot take that away - it is the DL's job to do it, since he started it.
But what we can do, is that we can choose how we react to the controversy: (1) If we remain silent, what will the newcomers, both in this generation and in the followig ones, then think? They will think that it is allright for Buddhists to practice oppression and ostracizm, for after all, the "great lamas" did so, and nobody challenged those actions, so evidently oppression is part of Buddhism. In this way, the Dharma becomes murky, and the beings will hold bad actions as pure, and ruin themselves. (2) Or, we can 'shout' so to speak, and challenge the wrong actions made in the name of Buddhism, to make it plain, that they are not Buddhism. In this way, all the newcomers see clearly, that unethical behaviour is not part of Buddhism. In this way, we can protect both the beings and the Dharma.
Therefore, to protect the Dharma and beings, we should 'shout', not remain silent. If some poeople keep their distance from Buddhism because of that, it really is the DL's action that caused it. And in any case, it is better to lose few timid would-be-followers than to lose the basis of Dharma, ie ethics and freedom. If Dharma falls, there would be nothing valuable which the would-be-followers could follow of.
There is no "big plan" or "higher purpose". Just tumblings and foilings of a medieval Hierarch. The only long-term benefit there will be is, as people see that the King has feet of clay, they will learn to place their trust on the Teachings and learn to think for themselves, instead of following blindly some god-figures.
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Yeah, some people will lose faith on seeing the protests. But i believe the damage from
not protesting is far, far greater. Also it's necessary to understand the loss of faith is coming from deluded actions, not from the protests. Still, that only holds if we keep a Dharma motivation, so we have to be careful.
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Oh and if the ban is 'in secret not a controversy' then we do not need to worry - the protest is not really a protest either! We can continue to have our pure view & be very happy while acting in accordance with conventions - meaning saying out loud that the Dalai Lama is lying & should stop.
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...Otherwise we are saying that one person's pure view must be adhered to over anothers aren't we?
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Hi, there is a thread titled: “Dalai Lama Says WSS Bigger Threat to Tibet Liberation than China!!!!” that updated on the ruling of the courts in New Delhi for the freedom to practice Dorje Shugden. How wonderful!
I believe that the demonstrations and efforts caused this result. With this milestone, I sincerely hope that we can stop "shouting" (while, off course, still keep an eye out to ensure DS practitioner are safe and actually enjoy this new freedom) and return our focus on Dharma practice!
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The following is an extract from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors (pg 125 onwards)
- a masterpiece of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and downloadable from this site.
CONCLUSION: PERVASIVE ENLIGHTENED ACTIVITIES
There is something I must mention at this point. As stated above, the Great Fifth
Dalai Lama and Omniscient Panchen Rinpoche were like Lords of the Teachings. In
actuality they are, respectively, Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha
emanating in the human form of special holy beings. Yet this Lord of Dharma
Protectors exhibited an ability to harm or destroy them, and such events as the
Great Fifth, having been able to summon this Dharmapala to be burned with
intense samadhi but not accomplish it, also shows that the enlightening activities
of these great masters and those of this Dharmapala are each as mutually
universal and pervasive as the other. But some who are narrow minded, not
understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly
being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama,
disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other
and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being
who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and
hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and
creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is
this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special
emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power
to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or
spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external
and internal maras without exception.
I was browsing through the older post and I found this gem :)
It is so true in our deluded mind that we see and only choose to understand what we want to understand. And choose to follow what we would "seem" to be good to follow.
I like what Trijang Rinpoche said about our narrow mind which is influence of attachement and hatred. This is so true as I get daily encounterment in my surrounding whereby when advice is given which definitely can benefit in a long run be turned around and not followed through due to our ego.
In this case, if YAMANTAKA OR HERUKA is standing in front of us, we are quite likely to miss it. Like some of us thinks that Shugden is a devil and HH is evil.
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Therefore, my question is: “If we “shout” the outer “wrongs” of H.H and uphold the sacredness of the pure view, how do we protect the Dharma in the eyes of new interested Dharma practitioners and spiritual seekers? DharmaDefender shared that the protests are causing some undesired consequence to the Dharma. It would be most sad if we “loose” new Dharma friends because of this controversy, which in secret, may not a controversy.
Perhaps Lhakpa Gyaltshen’s is most accurate in his last posting, the ideal method is to “…practice peacefully and be a real Buddhist.”… “without resorting to negative comments or actions towards those who do not agree with us or criticize us.”
The sad fact is, that the conroversy exists. We cannot take that away - it is the DL's job to do it, since he started it.
HHDL did start all this from the depths of his wisdom and compassion. And errant followers did not want to listen and abide creating the controversy. HHDL did not create the controversy, but those who persist in spirit worship are perpetuating the controversy.
The controversy can stop immediately. Solution: JUST FOLLOW HHDL's advice now. It's not too late.
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Yeah, some people will lose faith on seeing the protests. But i believe the damage from
not protesting is far, far greater. Also it's necessary to understand the loss of faith is coming from deluded actions, not from the protests. Still, that only holds if we keep a Dharma motivation, so we have to be careful.
Protests make Shugden followers happy. Not protesting makes the non-shugden followers happy. Which one is greater in number? Contemplate. By protesting we damage and hurt the sentiments of the larger non-Shugden practitioners.
For all those who are not Buddhist, it looks very bad-Full Stop. Protesting against the only global Buddhist leader does not generate the right image for Buddhists at all. It damages Buddhism globally. That would damage Buddhism's reputation in the eyes of many more than just Shugden people.
The protests were wrong. Geshe Kelsang who is a great scholar really put a stain on his name/works by masterminding, financing and organizing all these protests. What difference did the protests make? It didn't make a difference only to stain Kadampa centre's reputation and marginalize them. Kadampa was doing so well and the apple of everyone's eye till the protests. Geshe Kelsang really made a huge mistake with the protests. This was his downfall in one way. :( He shouldn't have done it. All the money Geshe Kelsang pumped into protests should have been used in much more beneficial ways.
I am sorry to see this happen to him. :-[
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Yeah, some people will lose faith on seeing the protests. But i believe the damage from
not protesting is far, far greater. Also it's necessary to understand the loss of faith is coming from deluded actions, not from the protests. Still, that only holds if we keep a Dharma motivation, so we have to be careful.
Protests make Shugden followers happy. Not protesting makes the non-shugden followers happy. Which one is greater in number? Contemplate. By protesting we damage and hurt the sentiments of the larger non-Shugden practitioners.
For all those who are not Buddhist, it looks very bad-Full Stop. Protesting against the only global Buddhist leader does not generate the right image for Buddhists at all. It damages Buddhism globally. That would damage Buddhism's reputation in the eyes of many more than just Shugden people.
The protests were wrong. Geshe Kelsang who is a great scholar really put a stain on his name/works by masterminding, financing and organizing all these protests. What difference did the protests make? It didn't make a difference only to stain Kadampa centre's reputation and marginalize them. Kadampa was doing so well and the apple of everyone's eye till the protests. Geshe Kelsang really made a huge mistake with the protests. This was his downfall in one way. :( He shouldn't have done it. All the money Geshe Kelsang pumped into protests should have been used in much more beneficial ways.
I am sorry to see this happen to him. :-[
Just to note money can't come from NKT centers for protests it comes from individual donors.
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Yeah, some people will lose faith on seeing the protests. But i believe the damage from
not protesting is far, far greater. Also it's necessary to understand the loss of faith is coming from deluded actions, not from the protests. Still, that only holds if we keep a Dharma motivation, so we have to be careful.
Protests make Shugden followers happy. Not protesting makes the non-shugden followers happy. Which one is greater in number? Contemplate. By protesting we damage and hurt the sentiments of the larger non-Shugden practitioners.
For all those who are not Buddhist, it looks very bad-Full Stop. Protesting against the only global Buddhist leader does not generate the right image for Buddhists at all. It damages Buddhism globally. That would damage Buddhism's reputation in the eyes of many more than just Shugden people.
The protests were wrong. Geshe Kelsang who is a great scholar really put a stain on his name/works by masterminding, financing and organizing all these protests. What difference did the protests make? It didn't make a difference only to stain Kadampa centre's reputation and marginalize them. Kadampa was doing so well and the apple of everyone's eye till the protests. Geshe Kelsang really made a huge mistake with the protests. This was his downfall in one way. :( He shouldn't have done it. All the money Geshe Kelsang pumped into protests should have been used in much more beneficial ways.
I am sorry to see this happen to him. :-[
I am sorry but I don't agree with you on this one. I don't think that the protest made anybody happy at all. It is clear that the ban benefited nobody especially within the Tibetan community. All Dorje Shugden practitioners suffered under the ban and those who were non-Shugden practitioners who were deeply affected by the segregation. The most affected are the monastics whose monasteries are devastated by the ban and the split of centuries old monastic institutions like Gaden and Sera.
Therefore, your statement is unfounded and very biased. With regards to the Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, I don't think it was a mistake but someone's got to stand up and say something. I don't think the protest is wrong especially if it was done peacefully. It has hardly tarnished the Dalai Lama's impenetrable image and it has brought on more attention to the plight of ordinary and monastic practitioners of Dorje Shugden. You will see this in written all over this forum and website.
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Yeah, some people will lose faith on seeing the protests. But i believe the damage from
not protesting is far, far greater. Also it's necessary to understand the loss of faith is coming from deluded actions, not from the protests. Still, that only holds if we keep a Dharma motivation, so we have to be careful.
Protests make Shugden followers happy. Not protesting makes the non-shugden followers happy. Which one is greater in number? Contemplate. By protesting we damage and hurt the sentiments of the larger non-Shugden practitioners.
For all those who are not Buddhist, it looks very bad-Full Stop. Protesting against the only global Buddhist leader does not generate the right image for Buddhists at all. It damages Buddhism globally. That would damage Buddhism's reputation in the eyes of many more than just Shugden people.
The protests were wrong. Geshe Kelsang who is a great scholar really put a stain on his name/works by masterminding, financing and organizing all these protests. What difference did the protests make? It didn't make a difference only to stain Kadampa centre's reputation and marginalize them. Kadampa was doing so well and the apple of everyone's eye till the protests. Geshe Kelsang really made a huge mistake with the protests. This was his downfall in one way. :( He shouldn't have done it. All the money Geshe Kelsang pumped into protests should have been used in much more beneficial ways.
I am sorry to see this happen to him. :-[
If the world has to work according to the will of the non-Shugden followers, then it would be pretty much a boring and one sided world, isnt it? where people vet centers and teachers and dismiss them as bad, evil or even sacrilegious because they do not follow what they expect teachers or centers to do based on their limited knowledge and wisdom of Buddhism.
First of all, people who are focused on Dharma practice will never criticize or part others from their teachers no matter how bad their teachers may seem. That is not what the Buddha taught, neither is this written in any sutras or commentaries found anywhere in Tibet. It is explained very clearly that if we do meet someone whom we perceive to be following the wrong teacher to just show them evidence and if they dont listen, leave them alone.
And the scriptures and lamas said leave them alone as they have karma with this teacher to follow their chosen path and it is not our place to disturb the karmic affinity of others, logically, that is assuming that we understand the law of karma which every buddhist should, based on what has been taught in the Lamrim. If we dont, then that's too bad as it just goes to show how buddhist we are.
But with that said, I have seen more and more practitioners who neither like or dislike Dorje Shugden who sincerely put into practice the Dharma who would take a neutral stance on this matter and tell others to have compassion for the Dorje Shugden practitioners. I mean, if you dont like Dorje Shugden, that sounds like a nice stance to take. It also shows that you are indeed more spiritually advanced.
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Yeah, some people will lose faith on seeing the protests. But i believe the damage from
not protesting is far, far greater. Also it's necessary to understand the loss of faith is coming from deluded actions, not from the protests. Still, that only holds if we keep a Dharma motivation, so we have to be careful.
Protests make Shugden followers happy. Not protesting makes the non-shugden followers happy. Which one is greater in number? Contemplate. By protesting we damage and hurt the sentiments of the larger non-Shugden practitioners.
For all those who are not Buddhist, it looks very bad-Full Stop. Protesting against the only global Buddhist leader does not generate the right image for Buddhists at all. It damages Buddhism globally. That would damage Buddhism's reputation in the eyes of many more than just Shugden people.
The protests were wrong. Geshe Kelsang who is a great scholar really put a stain on his name/works by masterminding, financing and organizing all these protests. What difference did the protests make? It didn't make a difference only to stain Kadampa centre's reputation and marginalize them. Kadampa was doing so well and the apple of everyone's eye till the protests. Geshe Kelsang really made a huge mistake with the protests. This was his downfall in one way. :( He shouldn't have done it. All the money Geshe Kelsang pumped into protests should have been used in much more beneficial ways.
I am sorry to see this happen to him. :-[
Seriously the protest has helped indirectly brought international media attention about Dorje Shugden and who Dorje Shugden is. Especially those non-Buddhist. It became global and spread like viral. Now even non-Buddhist knows about Dorje Shugden, they come and ask who is he and they will find out more and when they do... they compare notes, they will clearly see through all the illogical claims and excuses given not to practice Dorje Shugden because he is"EVIL". So evil he is that highly attained Lamas cannot even subdue Him!
The protest was done peacefully but we saw Tibetans being rather rude and vulgar after a "Compassion" teaching HHDL gave in NY. I do not think it has tarnished NKT's reputation one bit, infact I think they have gotten more members from it. The protest in fact made people find out more.
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Somehow I feel that the quote highlighted in the Music delighting Oceans of protector really represents what is happening today.
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Seriously the protest has helped indirectly brought international media attention about Dorje Shugden and who Dorje Shugden is. Especially those non-Buddhist. It became global and spread like viral. Now even non-Buddhist knows about Dorje Shugden, they come and ask who is he and they will find out more and when they do... they compare notes, they will clearly see through all the illogical claims and excuses given not to practice Dorje Shugden because he is"EVIL". So evil he is that highly attained Lamas cannot even subdue Him!
The protest was done peacefully but we saw Tibetans being rather rude and vulgar after a "Compassion" teaching HHDL gave in NY. I do not think it has tarnished NKT's reputation one bit, infact I think they have gotten more members from it. The protest in fact made people find out more.
No matter how we want to see it, the protests did help highlight Dorje Shugden to the media although it is done in a negative light but it does make people think deeper about the whole situation and people will want to look up on Dorje Shugden out of curiosity and they will learn who he really is and from there it is up to them to decide what they want. That sounds like the whole idea from the start.
It it was not for WSS and the protests, the media would not have covered that story repeatedly over the years. It is very brave for NKT, GKG and WSS to carry them out because it would also mean that they are destroying their own reputation for the sake of lifting the ban sooner and raising awareness. Who else would have the courage to do such things and stand up for what they believe in while disregarding their reputation?
I totally support GKG's actions and the actions of NKT and WSS for the protests as they did it knowing very well that their popularity will suffer over the next few years and will never recover as people will be puzzled to why are these people attacking the Dalai Lama and assume that they are bad. But as a result, more and more people are aware of Dorje Shugden and one day they will investigate.
When they do investigate they will have to decide which path is for them for themselves. That is a very buddhist way of deciding as the Buddha himself instructed us to investigate before deciding on something. Perhaps this is what the Dalai Lama would like to instil in the Tibetan Buddhists of this day and age.
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So clearly stated that the issues Shugdenpas are facing is to be resolved by the middle way as advised by the Great Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.
Yes the middle way, not against the Dalai Lama nor giving up Shugden, is where the solution to be ban will be found.
Let this happen soon with the arising of a Great Buddhist of our times. I can feel it to be very very soon.
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I think this post could have be an answer to some people who have doubt on H.H Dalai Lama, especially when the act of ban is quoted as devine play.
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I think this post could have be an answer to some people who have doubt on H.H Dalai Lama, especially when the act of ban is quoted as devine play.
Right. Such people will remove all their doubts, and realize that the “divine play” fairy tale is just the subtly coded message, not supposed to be understood literally, sent by great teachers such as the previous Trijang Rinpoche, who was well aware of the brutal character of the evil dalie, in order to avoid direct confrontation with, and the merciless revenge of, the obnoxious theocrat, and therefore much more damage to Gelugpas and Shugdenpas in absolutistic, theocratic Tibetan culture.
Trijang Rinpoche himself clearly mentions the envious nature of the evil dalie, which leaves nor room for doubt about his actual, although skilfully concealed, thought. Trijang Rinpoche knew better than anyone of us how to protect the Gelug lineage, and being himself a master of divine play, skilfully told people the suitable story according to the circumstances of his time.
However, the nature of religious fundamentalists is always to interpret scripture literally, in ways repugnant to human reason, and this is precisely what fanatical religionists like you do, on top of it wanting to impose on others as some kind of absolute “truth” your abhorrent, politically motivated view that the evil criminal dalie is some kind of “noble being”, everything on the mere basis of a literal, uncontextualized, thoughtless reading of Trijang Rinpoche's words, no matter how much this violates direct perception, reason, Buddhist principles such a compassion, and even basic principles of human decency.
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Peaceful protest is very beneficial as this will attract attention from people around the world what is the protest all about , we as Buddhist do not want violence the peaceful way is the best to voice out our concern and dissatisfaction.
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I truly appreciate this post, especially with the illustration of the 5th Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden supposedly animosity with that of Shakymuni Buddha and Devadetta, how clearly we know can relate to the divine play of the beings of such high levels.
This illustration is taught by HH Trijang Rinpoche to all of us current devotees so that we will conduct ourselves with respect and honour to our lineage Guru by listening and adhering to His teachings and also for us in following His teachings to be humble DS devotees and use peaceful and graceful ways for the Ban to be lifted.
A beautiful post. Thank you.
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[...] use peaceful and graceful ways for the Ban to be lifted.
What is there “peaceful” and “graceful” in covering and divinizing a brutal criminal such as the evil dalie, and in showing subservience to him, as you brazenly do, is something you still fail to show.
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Indeed, covering, divinizing, and showing subservience to, such an obnoxious criminal as the evil dalie is just empowering him further to keep perpetrating his crimes against humanity -- something obviously very “peaceful” and “graceful” according to you, right?
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Peaceful protest is very beneficial [...]
Agreed. Still, peaceful does not mean subservient and fearful. One should never fear denouncing the evil dalie for the criminal he is.
One should be aware that bankster-run Western media will never support the protests anyway, in the same way that they are always going to brazenly support the evil dalie and other Western sponsored proponents of violence such as the Islamic State or al-Qaeda terrorists, whom they call by nice names such as “moderate opposition” and “freedom fighters”.
Shugdenpas, in their innocence, are dealing with unscrupulous gangsters ready to perpetrate any kind of deception and violence for the sake of their own geopolitical and personal ends.