Author Topic: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...  (Read 46575 times)

Atishas cook

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2010, 12:42:28 PM »
thanks for your message!  however, this is completely wrong:

But the WSS are only protecting one lineage at the cost of many others.

by preventing one lineage from being destroyed, we are in fact protecting ALL lineages.  if we allow this despot to have his way unopposed, then ALL lineages will suffer.  he has already created a huge schism in the Kagyu lineage.  he is already being seen - as you say - as the representative and even the head of Buddhism in general globally.  a recent conference of heads of many different Buddhist traditions invited him as their head and deferred all their decisions and resolutions to him for his approval.  this is unprecedented.

the Gelugpas are simply the biggest and most powerful of the Tibetan schools.  he has already almost entirely usurped the power of the Ganden Tripa.  by destroying Dorje Shugden he breaks this school and bends it utterly to his will.  who then will stand against him?

when i protest his ban, i am defending my lineage.  but i am doing so on behalf of ALL living beings, and ALL the many and various valid traditions and schools of Lord Buddha's Dharma.

Lineageholder

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2010, 02:11:22 PM »
when i protest his ban, i am defending my lineage.  but i am doing so on behalf of ALL living beings, and ALL the many and various valid traditions and schools of Lord Buddha's Dharma.

I totally agree - me too.  Shugden practitioners are unfairly branded as 'sectarian' by the Dalai Lama.  This is completely wrong - I pray for the flourishing of all traditions of pure Buddhadharma, the very traditions that will be destroyed by the Dalai Lama's ego game of mixing politics and religion.

As strange as it may seem, the Dalai Lama is actually the biggest threat to pure Buddhadharma.  Although the Dalai Lama's picture may attract people to Buddhism, it's only because of what he represents - a pure, happy monk.  No doubt those people are experiencing the ripening of imprints from their previous experience of ordained Sangha, but how sad it would be if they were to come to the Dharma only to be used a pawn by the Dalai Lama in his political battles, for example his fight against Dorje Shugden, as has been the case with many of his ardent Western supporters? 

This is a cynical abuse of faith and shows that the Dalai Lama is not what he appears to be. His actions are not actually in accordance with his aspect, and he is therefore deceptive.  As I said before when asking if the Dalai Lama is a valid Teacher, because he has broken with his Guru, what Buddhism can he give?

dsnowlion

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2010, 08:30:57 AM »
The following is an extract from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors (pg 125 onwards)
- a masterpiece of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and downloadable from this site.

CONCLUSION: PERVASIVE ENLIGHTENED ACTIVITIES
 
There is something I must mention at this point.  As stated above, the Great Fifth
Dalai Lama and Omniscient Panchen Rinpoche were like Lords of the Teachings. In
actuality they are, respectively, Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha
emanating in the human form of special holy beings. Yet this Lord of Dharma
Protectors exhibited an ability to harm or destroy them, and such events as the
Great Fifth, having been able to summon this Dharmapala to be burned with
intense samadhi but not accomplish it, also shows that the enlightening activities
of these great masters and those of this Dharmapala are each as mutually
universal and pervasive as the other. But some who are narrow minded, not
understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly
being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama,
disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other
and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being
who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and
hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and
creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future.
Why is
this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special
emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power
to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or
spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external
and internal maras without exception.
   
 
This is a projection of ordinary faults upon those of high realization, special
Dharmapalas, out of habituation to their own common bad behavior of
competitiveness, prejudice, and harboring of grudges. It simply reveals complete
ignorance of the nature of these Dharmpalas, the extent of their realizations, and
knowledge of what they protect and do not protect.
   
Furthermore, to the common view of beings, it is difficult to fully
understand the appearances of holy great Aryas and their inconceivable three
secrets at the definitive level. Although Buddha Shakyamuni was free of all
dangers, Devadatta firing his catapult at him, wounding him, and he constantly
appeared to compete with and harm Buddha by setting mad elephants upon him
and so forth. Yet glorious Chandrakirti in his Lamp Illuminating Guyasamaja quotes
from the Great Union Tantra called Uncommon Secrets, as follows,
 
Then, I shall furthermore expound upon the Omniscient One's perfect
entourage. It is like this: Manjusri became King Shuddhodana. Avalokiteswara
became Devi Maha Maya. Sri Devi is Yasodhara. Vajrasattva is Rahula. Sarva
Nivarana Viskambini is Shariputra. Samantabhadra is Stavira Ananda. Indra,
Lord of the Gods, is Stavira Devadatta. Great Vairochana is Samyaksam
Buddha Glorious Shakyamuni. By this principle, Buddha emanates as both the
one around whom the entourage gathers, as well as the entourage, in order to
get sentient beings who are beginners started.
 
Thus, Devadatta was, himself, said to be an intentional emanation of the Lord of
the Gods, Indra.  The holy Dharma of the White Lotus Sutra also states, Bikshus! 
At that time, in that life, Devadatta became a wise sage.  Bikshus!  Devadatta is
even my Spiritual Guide!
 
Accordingly, if it serves to benefit trainees, Buddhas will even emanate as evil
maras.  As is said in that same Tantra again, Likewise, they emanate many forms
out of skillful means.  All of them are just in accordance with the needs of the world.


Thus, they are all said to be nothing but displays appearing to the common view of
trainess. In a similar way the Lord of the Devas Indra has emanated as a Brahmin
to put beings such as the Bodhisattva Sadapraruditali though tests such as making
him have to cut off his flesh and bone in offering. The Dharmaraja Songtsen
Gampo emanated people that were executed by other emanated people. In the
previous life stories of Atisha, Dromtonpa, and Kutson Dru Yungdrung, these
three sometimes harmed each other and resented each other while, at other
times, they were close relatives such as father and son, as is clear in the many
accounts recorded in the Kadampa Scriptures.


Thank you Big Uncle for highlighting this post again on this forum. It gives great inspiration knowing that we are on the right track. I mean I don't agree with Dalai Lama's ban towards our protector never the less to react negatively towards Dalai lama brings us to be as low as those condemning us.

At phayul forum, the moment you open your thoughts, even if you're not condemning the Dalai Lama, the moment you say anything about Dorje Shugden, staright away they say you are WSS/NKT working with the China spreading the CCP Propaganda. I mean how narrow can their minds be. It seems everyone is WSS/NKT/China, it's really ridiculously hillarious to a certain degree. So i hope we don't end up mirroring them.

Besides from I read in the above advice by Trijang Rinpoche, "Accordingly, if it serves to benefit trainees, Buddhas will even emanate as evil maras (this can be applied to the Dalai Lama?).  As is said in that same Tantra again, Likewise, they emanate many forms out of skillful means.  All of them are just in accordance with the needs of the world."


Never the less I will give credit to WSS's for achieving what they set out to mainly achieve, that is I believe is to stop if not lessen down the TGIE persecution of more DS practitioners? And so there is no need to continue with this "wrathful" methods of shouting is there?

DharmaDefender

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2010, 09:27:02 AM »
thanks for your message!  however, this is completely wrong:

But the WSS are only protecting one lineage at the cost of many others.

by preventing one lineage from being destroyed, we are in fact protecting ALL lineages.  if we allow this despot to have his way unopposed, then ALL lineages will suffer.  he has already created a huge schism in the Kagyu lineage.  he is already being seen - as you say - as the representative and even the head of Buddhism in general globally.  a recent conference of heads of many different Buddhist traditions invited him as their head and deferred all their decisions and resolutions to him for his approval.  this is unprecedented.

the Gelugpas are simply the biggest and most powerful of the Tibetan schools.  he has already almost entirely usurped the power of the Ganden Tripa.  by destroying Dorje Shugden he breaks this school and bends it utterly to his will.  who then will stand against him?

when i protest his ban, i am defending my lineage.  but i am doing so on behalf of ALL living beings, and ALL the many and various valid traditions and schools of Lord Buddha's Dharma.

Fair enough - I take your point about defending all lineages too, it's a valid one, and I retract most of my own point except to say that the entire responsibility for the problem does not lie with him.

We need to take responsibility for our own actions. No one can cause schism or harm unless they already want to (though we can debate the person's true motivation until the cows come home!). People don't have to follow what the Dalai Lama says, and they don't have to act on his words unless those words are proven valid. Therefore if he has, as you say, created schisms in the Kagyu lineage, it's because there were already people willing to act on his words without thinking. Perhaps having stronger, better informed practitioners is a more effective buffer/defense against schism.

Middleway

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2010, 12:14:25 PM »
People don't have to follow what the Dalai Lama says, and they don't have to act on his words unless those words are proven valid. Therefore if he has, as you say, created schisms in the Kagyu lineage, it's because there were already people willing to act on his words without thinking. Perhaps having stronger, better informed practitioners is a more effective buffer/defense against schism.

I understand your general point here DharmaDefender, but just to highlight that not every one has the freedom to just 'not follow what the DL says', at least not without fear of huge reprisal, which is why the WSS & other groups were formed & continue to work to rectify that very situation.

Big Uncle

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2010, 08:29:51 PM »
Dear all,

Just to remind you guys that I posted this excerpt from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's own holy text to proof to you guys there is a point in seeking a middle way between the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden controversy. His words are plain and simple and that is to respect the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden in equal measures. However, I am not saying that we should allow the current situation to continue but I am saying we should protest in a way that  will lift the ban instead of discrediting the Dalai Lama so much.

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2010, 09:00:45 PM »
.........However, I am not saying that we should allow the current situation to continue but I am saying we should protest in a way that  will lift the ban instead of discrediting the Dalai Lama so much.

Yes but, well uh... how do you propose we might do that? Really. I'm not asking this in some general sense, but would like to hear real suggestions. Concrete solutions.

I mean, how can you, me, or anyone else, stop the anti-DS activities of the DL without somehow implicating that the DL is a mistaken ballyhoo-master? He has, afterall, been very explicit in his views on this issue, and has refused discussing about the whole thing, so tell me now, how could we turn his head. He lives in an ivory tower, not hearing any of the grunt of the common practitioner. If our voice is not heard "up there", maybe the only way is to drag "the up" down here. For a discussion to happen, the tower must fall, since the telephone lines do not work, thanks to the "resident tower master".

DharmaDefender

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2010, 09:14:03 PM »
.........However, I am not saying that we should allow the current situation to continue but I am saying we should protest in a way that  will lift the ban instead of discrediting the Dalai Lama so much.

Yes but, well uh... how do you propose we might do that? Really. I'm not asking this in some general sense, but would like to hear real suggestions. Concrete solutions.

I mean, how can you, me, or anyone else, stop the anti-DS activities of the DL without somehow implicating that the DL is a mistaken ballyhoo-master? He has, afterall, been very explicit in his views on this issue, and has refused discussing about the whole thing, so tell me now, how could we turn his head. He lives in an ivory tower, not hearing any of the grunt of the common practitioner. If our voice is not heard "up there", maybe the only way is to drag "the up" down here. For a discussion to happen, the tower must fall, since the telephone lines do not work, thanks to the "resident tower master".

Why speak to him when we can speak to the common practitioner? I understand the purpose of the protests but calling the Dalai Lama a liar outside one of his talks antagonises the people who attend them. As a general example (I'm not referring to you specifically!), if you feel personally attacked when someone defends the Dalai Lama because of how much hurt he has caused you, think about how attacked they feel when someone insults him to their faces...it immediately causes their minds and ears to close. Perhaps engage in dialogue with THEM rather than the Dalai Lama.

Atishas cook

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2010, 09:20:54 PM »
Quote
Perhaps engage in dialogue with THEM rather than the Dalai Lama.

they haven't got the power to lift the ban.

Big Uncle -   you have to read Trijang Rinpoche's text carefully, considering the context.  what do you think would have happened if he'd said: "go ahead and criticise him"?  read between the lines.  it's a text about Dorje Shugden's enlightened nature, in direct contradiction to the Dalai Lama's professed view.  of course he had to include that stuff abou the DL, or the text would have immediately been banned and he would have been in big trouble.

DharmaDefender

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2010, 09:39:14 PM »
Quote
Perhaps engage in dialogue with THEM rather than the Dalai Lama.

they haven't got the power to lift the ban.

Big Uncle -   you have to read Trijang Rinpoche's text carefully, considering the context.  what do you think would have happened if he'd said: "go ahead and criticise him"?  read between the lines.  it's a text about Dorje Shugden's enlightened nature, in direct contradiction to the Dalai Lama's professed view.  of course he had to include that stuff abou the DL, or the text would have immediately been banned and he would have been in big trouble.

Of course they do. Practice is personal responsibility right? And politics is a collective one? If enough people take personal responsibility not to harm others who disagree with their view, and take a collective responsibility to ignore any calls for suppression of DS, it could go away. Perhaps that's a naive view I'm taking but solidarity over an issue can lead to positive results - just look at how India gained their independence, or how apartheid ended.

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2010, 10:24:05 PM »
Why speak to him when we can speak to the common practitioner? I understand the purpose of the protests but calling the Dalai Lama a liar outside one of his talks antagonises the people who attend them. As a general example (I'm not referring to you specifically!), if you feel personally attacked when someone defends the Dalai Lama because of how much hurt he has caused you, think about how attacked they feel when someone insults him to their faces...it immediately causes their minds and ears to close. Perhaps engage in dialogue with THEM rather than the Dalai Lama.

Nice idea, but then... uh?! Are you serious, or what? The yap-yap is not meant to be heard directly by either Saruman or the Uruk-Hai.

1 - The DL does not listen in any case, since he resides in the Tower. He has been talked to, but he has refused to talk back in any meaningful way, over three decades. All the yap-yap currently by certain parties is not directed to him, since he is beyond all the voices, having himself cut the telephone lines. The yap-yap is meant to be heard where it is heard, namely, in the foundational structures of the Tower.

2 - But also, if one directly communicates with the general DL audience, one will have no real human response, since those people have at that moment two communication lines: one leading to the top of the Tower, and one leading to us maggots in the gutter. Who will they listen? Think about it. They will listen Saruman. The Uruk-Hai will not listen us Rohirrim. I do know this. Seen that, done that.

3 - The only option is that one tells to all the Free Men of the West, that Saruman is treacherous, whereby one can take the support and supply away from the Isengaard. Neither the Uruk-Hai nor the common people can affect the decisions made in the Iron Tower, but the power of the tower can be taken away by letting the Tower Master to sit alone, all alone. But that requires something specific from our side, you see - the common people, the "free men of the West", will sadly not disregard Isengaard's evil commandements as long as Saruman is seen as the White Wizard, as the Good Guy! Therefore the treachery must be voiced as treachery, for the commoners to ignore the treacherous policies.

 ;D
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 10:34:01 PM by Zhalmed Pawo »

WisdomBeing

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2010, 10:38:00 PM »
Quote
Perhaps engage in dialogue with THEM rather than the Dalai Lama.

they haven't got the power to lift the ban.

Big Uncle -   you have to read Trijang Rinpoche's text carefully, considering the context.  what do you think would have happened if he'd said: "go ahead and criticise him"?  read between the lines.  it's a text about Dorje Shugden's enlightened nature, in direct contradiction to the Dalai Lama's professed view.  of course he had to include that stuff abou the DL, or the text would have immediately been banned and he would have been in big trouble.

Of course they do. Practice is personal responsibility right? And politics is a collective one? If enough people take personal responsibility not to harm others who disagree with their view, and take a collective responsibility to ignore any calls for suppression of DS, it could go away. Perhaps that's a naive view I'm taking but solidarity over an issue can lead to positive results - just look at how India gained their independence, or how apartheid ended.

Everything is impermanent - and that gives me solace every day because it means that the ban against Shugden will change in the future. I'm sure that Nelson Mandela always believed that apartheid would end even though thousands didn't. Likewise Gandhi believed in getting independence for India - and he did it without violence. So too will Shugden practitioners be able to one day freely practice without fear or favour.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

honeydakini

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2010, 10:46:48 PM »
Dear all,

Just to remind you guys that I posted this excerpt from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's own holy text to proof to you guys there is a point in seeking a middle way between the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden controversy. His words are plain and simple and that is to respect the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden in equal measures. However, I am not saying that we should allow the current situation to continue but I am saying we should protest in a way that  will lift the ban instead of discrediting the Dalai Lama so much.

Perhaps it doesn't even have to be that the ban will be lifted so much as it just dies down completely and disappears into an oblivion. If the voices of the other side get louder and bigger, the few little men in the TGIE and their supporters will get smaller and smaller. After all, (and with no disrespect intended), what happens to this ban once the dalai lama passes away? the TGIE are in a shaky place right now and have little control over their own people - nobody listens to anyone but the Dalai Lama right? While that could seem like a "bad' thing now, that perhaps becomes the best thing when he passes away because then there's no real stronghold to keep that ban going.

So, I think that AS WELL AS highlighting what is going on at the moment and being aware of the current situation, we need to begin to prepare for a future when there is no more ban... and that involves how we will bring Dharma and dorje shugden to others in a more tangible, practical way that is purely about Dorje Shugden himself and his practice/benefits, rather than about just solely banging on and on and on about what the dalai lama is or is not doing and about the ban itself. The ban won't last forever, but Dorje Shugden will - so do we want to spend so much time just talking about what's happening now? Or building a platform for Dorje Shugden to arise bigger and brighter than ever in the (very near) future?

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2010, 10:57:32 PM »
Of course they do. Practice is personal responsibility right? And politics is a collective one? If enough people take personal responsibility not to harm others who disagree with their view, and take a collective responsibility to ignore any calls for suppression of DS, it could go away. Perhaps that's a naive view I'm taking but solidarity over an issue can lead to positive results - just look at how India gained their independence, or how apartheid ended.

Yes. But how to achieve all that?

If the DL would simply proclaim, that no DS-practitioner is to be harmed, ostracized, bullied, etc, maybe it could come to pass.

And if not that, if people, by their own wits and knowledge of Dharma, would just disregard the DL issued ban and ostracism, it might come to pass.

But as the DL is relentless, and as the people like to bully and suppress, it continues.

So as you said, your view just could be a naive view (sadly). The solidarity expressed in the TB-circles is nothing more than a blind totalitarian adherence to the Dictates of the Party. (Quoting the DL: "Yes, it will be just like the Cultural Revolution!")

 :(

dsnowlion

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Re: KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2010, 11:32:19 PM »
Quote
Yes. But how to achieve all that?
If the DL would simply proclaim, that no DS-practitioner is to be harmed, ostracized, bullied, etc, maybe it could come to pass.

And if not that, if people, by their own wits and knowledge of Dharma, would just disregard the DL issued ban and ostracism, it might come to pass.

But as the DL is relentless, and as the people like to bully and suppress, it continues.

So as you said, your view just could be a naive view (sadly). The solidarity expressed in the TB-circles is nothing more than a blind totalitarian adherence to the Dictates of the Party. (Quoting the DL: "Yes, it will be just like the Cultural Revolution!")

One way we can do this is by spreading dorje shugden practice to new people! The more people practicing will create the cause for Dorje Shugden practice to be mainstream/world reknown that TGIE cannot just disregard the world. China has 1.3billion people. Eventually the whole of China will be practicing Dorje Shugden or would have heard of it and it becomes part of China's culture/religion. They will probably proclaim it to be their religion (which has started already) and soon enough Dorje Shugden practice becomes mainstream. Other superpower countries who will have too much to risk to upset China will probably support this as China promotes it so widely .

We're not Tibetans and we don't need to succumb to the Dalai Lama's ban. We can post about Dorje Shugden practice via facebook/twitter etc and guide them to many of the fabulous dorjeshugden site like this one. That is one way we can preserve this precious protector practice :)

As for the Tibetans we need to highlight on what they should be focusing on what the TGIE have not done for them and talk about the fact that their state oracle have not been successfully giving correct prophesies.  The Tibetan youths are getting very fed up with Dalai lama's middle way and in fact they are starting to take matters into their own hands. You can see this in their many postings in phayul forums and even youtube videos.