Author Topic: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama  (Read 31217 times)

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« on: April 01, 2014, 05:24:15 PM »
I was just ruminating on the position of the Dalai Lama and the apparent contradiction of the emanation of the Buddha of Compassion vs the person who is responsible for the extremely uncompassionate ban on Dorje Shugden practice.

It has been said that the Dalai Lama is not compassionate in that he has:

1. broken samaya with his Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche, by stopping his Dorje Shugden practice
2. condemned Dorje Shugden practice and caused suffering to Dorje Shugden practitioners
3. created schism amongst the sangha and the Tibetan people because of his continuous sanction of the ban.

The Dalai Lama is seen as a perfect embodiment of a Buddha EXCEPT in relations to the Dorje Shugden issue. Can our view of him see him as separate from the Dorje Shugden issue? Can he still be considered a "Buddha" because of these negative actions? Can he be considered a Buddha who is acting in ways above our lowly human comprehension so we should still strive to see him as enlightened despite his contradictory actions on the Dorje Shugden issue? How far do we bend our own views of what is right or wrong with regard to our view of the Dalai Lama? Can we divorce our view of the Shugden ban and our view of the Dalai Lama? I know some people who believe that the Dalai Lama is imposing the ban for the "bigger picture" - to spread Dorje Shugden's practice. But how far is one allowed do something for the benefit of the greater good? How many people have to suffer for the sake of the greater good and who has the right to decide?
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Matibhadra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2014, 12:11:20 AM »
Quote
Can he still be considered a "Buddha" because of these negative actions?

Leaving aside the Abrahamic associations of the terms ”sin” and ”sinful”, a buddha, or even a high bodhisattva such as Chenrezig, by definition, are never sinful. Having destroyed the mental afflictions, such as anger, lust, and ignorance, it is impossible for them to engage in any iniquity or harmful action.

Meanwhile, the evil dalai himself fully recognizes that ”discriminating people on the basis of religion is sinful”. Since this is precisely what he brazenly, unapologetically, and relentlessly does for decades, it follows that the evil dalai himself fully admits to his own sinful, unholy, perverted character.

Therefore, since a buddha, or even a high bodhisattva, by definition, can never be sinful, unholy, perverted, and since the evil dalai himself fully admits to being sinful, unholy, perverted, it follows that the evil dalai, by his own admission, cannot be a buddha or a high bodhisattva such as Chenrezig.

Besides, the evil dalai being, by his own admission, a sinful, unholy, perverted character, it follows that trying to justify, glorify, and even sanctify him, calling him a ”buddha”, or a ”high bodhisattva” such as Chenrezig, is actually tantamount to defaming, degrading, and disparaging buddhas and high bodhisattvas.

Matibhadra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2014, 01:35:24 AM »
Quote
How many people have to suffer for the sake of the greater good... [?]

This story of ”people having to suffer for the for the sake of the greater good” stinks to Jewish, Christian, and Muslim apocalyptical ideologies, whereby wars, massacres, genocides, and jihads are justified as necessary for the sake of the ”coming” of the Jewish Messiah, of the ”second coming” of Jesus, or of the ”return” of the prophet Mahdi, in any case with a view to implanting a worldwide absolute theocracy, be it the Jewish ”Kingship”, the Christian ”Kingdom of God”, or the global Islamic rule envisioned by jihadists.

Now, looks like some misguided Dorje Shugden proponents, obviously under the sickening influence of Abrahamic beliefs, are suggesting that the evil dalai's persecutions are similarly justified and necessary, for the sake of Dorje Shugden becoming recognized by the whole humankind as the new ”world protector”, ”the most popular deity in the world”, or the such, which would usher in a new era for humanity -- this being the ”greater good” they claim in order to integrate the whole dalaite criminality into the ”bigger picture”.

In any case, what we are dealing with is what psychiatric science knows as ”delusions of grandeur”, or ”grandiose delusions”, a delusional disorder which is at the very root of Abrahamic ideologies, but which lacks any Buddhist roots or lineage, and specifically has absolutely nothing to do with Je Tsongkhapa's teachings or with Dorje Shugden, which are about giving up wordly concerns to start with.

Lineageholder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2014, 11:56:52 AM »
The Dalai Lama is seen as a perfect embodiment of a Buddha EXCEPT in relations to the Dorje Shugden issue.


I'm sorry WisdomBeing, but this isn't true. There is the Mongoose-Canine letter that lists many murky issues that the Dalai Lama has been involved in.

http://dorjeshugdentruth.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/the-mixing-of-dharma-and-politics-the-mongoose-canine-letter/

He actively engaged the CIA to train a guerrilla army who could fight the Chinese while claiming that he supported a non-violent approach.  He has acted like a conventional politician, often saying one thing while doing something else extremely suspect and not in accordance with Buddha's teachings. There is the murder of Gungthang Tsultrim and many other issues that he has been implicated in - how much did he know about these things? His actions are questionable to say the least.

In relation to the the Dorje Shugden issue, he has completely denounced his own lineage Gurus and Teachers, branding them effectively as criminals and spirit worshippers so he has broken his connection with the Lineage of Je Tsongkhapa and he is questionably trying to merge all Tibetan traditions under his control, so with respect to all these issues he has not shown the example of being a perfect embodiment of Buddha.

Matibhadra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2014, 02:00:07 PM »
Quote
[...] so with respect to all these issues he has not shown the example of being a perfect embodiment of Buddha.

Or rather, he, the evil dalai, has shown the example of being a perfect embodiment of an evil spirit hell bent on destroying Buddhism, and harming innocent people.

wang

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 97
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2014, 11:35:36 PM »

It has been said that the Dalai Lama is not compassionate in that he has:

1. broken samaya with his Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche, by stopping his Dorje Shugden practice
2. condemned Dorje Shugden practice and caused suffering to Dorje Shugden practitioners
3. created schism amongst the sangha and the Tibetan people because of his continuous sanction of the ban.

The Dalai Lama is seen as a perfect embodiment of a Buddha EXCEPT in relations to the Dorje Shugden issue. Can our view of him see him as separate from the Dorje Shugden issue?

When the king is naked I would say he is naked, I am not Tibetan and he is not my guru anyway. To play safe, I would add that it may be an act of bodhisattva whose aim I don't understand(as a lot Tibetan including some of my gurus said he is a bodhisattva) .  But certainly I would not say it's because he want to promote Dorje Shugden as he is hurting the Geluk lineage in general, not just those practicing Dorje Shugden...

Lineageholder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 07:27:34 AM »
Would a Buddha or a Bodhisattva denounce their Teachers and make strenuous efforts to destroy a pure spiritual tradition? Would they cause millions of people to break their spiritual commitments to their Gurus. divide families and cause sectarian hatred and division?

There's no benefit to be gained from the Dalai Lama's actions of religious dictatorship.

vajrastorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 03:04:07 PM »
Call him what you will, but it does not change the fact that Trijang Rinpoche in "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors has warned us against passing such judgement on HH Dalai Lama.

Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche tells us that "to the common view of beings,it is difficult to fully understand the appearances of Holy Aryas and their inconceivable three secrets (body, speech and mind) at the definitive level". The pure view of the Aryas and Holy Beings are as yet beyond our reach. "Great enlightened beings", Trijang Rinpoche continues, " have also seem to display jealousy towards each other". Is the Dalai Lama jealous of Shugden ?"   On the surface perhaps...

Matibhadra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2014, 03:23:10 PM »
Quote
Call him what you will, but it does not change the fact that Trijang Rinpoche in "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors has warned us against passing such judgement on HH Dalai Lama.

Please quote the passage.

Quote
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche tells us that "to the common view of beings,it is difficult to fully understand the appearances of Holy Aryas and their inconceivable three secrets (body, speech and mind) at the definitive level".

Sure. But still no reference to the evil dalai. Pehaps it's just your imagination.

Quote
The pure view of the Aryas and Holy Beings are as yet beyond our reach. "Great enlightened beings", Trijang Rinpoche continues, "have also seem to display jealousy towards each other".

With or without jealousy, still no mention to the evil dalai. This says a lot.

Quote
Is the Dalai Lama jealous of Shugden ?" On the surface perhaps...

Trijang Rinpoche, in skilful way, is saying that the evil dalai is driven by jealousy, could he be clearer?

Anyway, this current, evil dalai, being himself a false Dalai Lama, any statement by Trijang Rinpoche referring to a ”Dalai Lama” does not apply to him.

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2014, 03:51:53 PM »

It has been said that the Dalai Lama is not compassionate in that he has:

1. broken samaya with his Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche, by stopping his Dorje Shugden practice
2. condemned Dorje Shugden practice and caused suffering to Dorje Shugden practitioners
3. created schism amongst the sangha and the Tibetan people because of his continuous sanction of the ban.

The Dalai Lama is seen as a perfect embodiment of a Buddha EXCEPT in relations to the Dorje Shugden issue. Can our view of him see him as separate from the Dorje Shugden issue?

When the king is naked I would say he is naked, I am not Tibetan and he is not my guru anyway. To play safe, I would add that it may be an act of bodhisattva whose aim I don't understand(as a lot Tibetan including some of my gurus said he is a bodhisattva) .  But certainly I would not say it's because he want to promote Dorje Shugden as he is hurting the Geluk lineage in general, not just those practicing Dorje Shugden...

This is what flummoxes me - many high lamas say that the Dalai Lama IS a Bodhisattva. I would presume that these high lamas can see further than us ordinary lay people can see. However, i think it is common knowledge that the Buddha has always told us to question - to even question what the Buddha himself says and that if it does not make sense we can discard it - but i guess we will still see the Buddha as the Buddha even if we don't understand what he is saying.

However, I do not think we can be selective in the sense that we say Dalai Lama is a bodhisattva except for his illogical ban on Dorje Shugden. He either is a bodhisattva or he isn't.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

wang

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 97
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2014, 11:59:00 PM »

When the king is naked I would say he is naked, I am not Tibetan and he is not my guru anyway. To play safe, I would add that it may be an act of bodhisattva whose aim I don't understand(as a lot Tibetan including some of my gurus said he is a bodhisattva) .  But certainly I would not say it's because he want to promote Dorje Shugden as he is hurting the Geluk lineage in general, not just those practicing Dorje Shugden...


However, I do not think we can be selective in the sense that we say Dalai Lama is a bodhisattva except for his illogical ban on Dorje Shugden. He either is a bodhisattva or he isn't.
[/quote]

Agree, its' very simple to me:
1. If HHDL be a bodhisattva, he will expect us judge his action based on Dharma teachings. There is a saying that if your king disguised as begger in the street, you better treat him same as a begger instead of as your king. It looks not be a wrong statement that HHDL broke his samaya with Trijiang Rinpoche, by opening comment that his guru's main protector is evil and his guru's students need to give up the practice, even during Trijiang Rinpoche be alive.

2. If HHDL not be bodhisattva, there is not fault we comment based on Dharma teachings also.

All in all, we have no need to take HHDL's high status in Tibet into account regarding this issue, whether HHDL be a bodhisattva or not, just comment as if he is a 'normal monk'(which is always quoted by HHDL anyway) is enough.

psylotripitaka

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2014, 06:53:53 AM »
The essence of the situation:

Regardless of who he is, according to worldly conventions his actions are inappropriate and must be stopped. Even if the ban remains in place, it is the active persecution of others that must stop.


Regarding view:

If we learn to regard everything that appears to our mind as a dialogue between us and our Guru that functions to refine our consciousness, we understand that the Guru (our own Buddha nature itself) is constantly requesting us to respond appropriately to what is appearing. Appearances should stimulate the correct views of Sutra and Tantra within our consciousness, that is all. The only "right view" to have of other people are those views contained in Sutra and Tantra, you choose. Either way, the meaning of your life is being seized. This is the most important point.

In Dorje Shugden kangso it says:

"To tame disciples, you perform deeds beyond ordinary understanding,
Appearing as if in a drama as gods, spirits, demons, or deluded beings,
Or as men, women, handicapped people, or even insane beings;
I rejoice in your great kindness towards the doctrine and living beings."

Key words - "to tame". Are you being tamed through applying your Gurus instructions to the appearances of this controversy?

To those who have the DL as a Guru, consider this: Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche once said that Vajradhara appears in an ordinary human aspect so we can relate to him, and that of course he will appear to us to make mistakes. He then said we need to act appropriately and confront our Guru with questions if their behavior does not seem appropriate by normal conventions.

If my Guru is beating someone to death, I will stop them. Though myself and the recipient of the beating may have pure view, if with my eyes I see a human beating a human, that is ordinary appearance, and according to ordinary conventions beating someone to death is inappropriate. So though you may regard the DL as a holy being, it is entirely appropriate to confront him regarding his extremely inappropriate behavior. So what is the view then? Though you may see him as holy, you also see much suffering and develop compassion for the beings he appears to be inflicting suffering on, and you take steps on their behalf just as Jetsun Marpa's wife and disciples pleaded with the Master on Je Mila's behalf.

Otherwise, the DL is a suffering living being, and out of compassion we must take actions to try and stop him from creating immense suffering for himself and others.

Whichever view you have, you can still take action to stop the inappropriate behavior and suffering, even if it is only through prayer. Regardless of who he is, according to worldly conventions his actions are inappropriate and must be stopped. Even if the ban remains in place, it is the active persecution of others that must stop.










psylotripitaka

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2014, 07:58:49 AM »
Just as it is totally irrelevant to the situation at hand whether Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not, so it is totally irrelevant to the situation at hand whether or not the DL is Chenrezig or not.

People are being harmed and that shit needs to be stopped!

Matibhadra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2014, 08:14:46 AM »
Quote
Just as it is totally irrelevant to the situation at hand whether Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not, so it is totally irrelevant to the situation at hand whether or not the DL is Chenrezig or not.

You miss the point. The issue is not whether the evil dalai is Chenrezig or not, but rather the sick attitude of deifying a brutal criminal.

psylotripitaka

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
Re: What is the Right View of The Dalai Lama
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2014, 02:24:19 PM »
I do get your point, it just isn't that simple.

My point was attempting to address the ongoing battle people are having due to the DL being one of their Gurus. Because of the complex spiritual considerations of Ashvagosha's 50 Verses and other Guru Yoga compositions, and stories like Tilopa/Naropa Marpa/Milarepa, such students have repeatedly tried to resolve their conflict, the constant dialogue on this forum about it over and over again shows this.

Your angle strongly focusses on the appearance of worldly conventions and I couldn't agree more, but it isn't that easy for a disciple of the DL. Therefore, what I shared is an attempt to help such people understand how to keep pure view while dealing firmly with the worldly appearance of their teacher being a brutal dictator.