dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: WisdomBeing on April 01, 2014, 05:24:15 PM
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I was just ruminating on the position of the Dalai Lama and the apparent contradiction of the emanation of the Buddha of Compassion vs the person who is responsible for the extremely uncompassionate ban on Dorje Shugden practice.
It has been said that the Dalai Lama is not compassionate in that he has:
1. broken samaya with his Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche, by stopping his Dorje Shugden practice
2. condemned Dorje Shugden practice and caused suffering to Dorje Shugden practitioners
3. created schism amongst the sangha and the Tibetan people because of his continuous sanction of the ban.
The Dalai Lama is seen as a perfect embodiment of a Buddha EXCEPT in relations to the Dorje Shugden issue. Can our view of him see him as separate from the Dorje Shugden issue? Can he still be considered a "Buddha" because of these negative actions? Can he be considered a Buddha who is acting in ways above our lowly human comprehension so we should still strive to see him as enlightened despite his contradictory actions on the Dorje Shugden issue? How far do we bend our own views of what is right or wrong with regard to our view of the Dalai Lama? Can we divorce our view of the Shugden ban and our view of the Dalai Lama? I know some people who believe that the Dalai Lama is imposing the ban for the "bigger picture" - to spread Dorje Shugden's practice. But how far is one allowed do something for the benefit of the greater good? How many people have to suffer for the sake of the greater good and who has the right to decide?
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Can he still be considered a "Buddha" because of these negative actions?
Leaving aside the Abrahamic associations of the terms ”sin” and ”sinful”, a buddha, or even a high bodhisattva such as Chenrezig, by definition, are never sinful. Having destroyed the mental afflictions, such as anger, lust, and ignorance, it is impossible for them to engage in any iniquity or harmful action.
Meanwhile, the evil dalai himself fully recognizes that ”discriminating people on the basis of religion is sinful”. Since this is precisely what he brazenly, unapologetically, and relentlessly does for decades, it follows that the evil dalai himself fully admits to his own sinful, unholy, perverted character.
Therefore, since a buddha, or even a high bodhisattva, by definition, can never be sinful, unholy, perverted, and since the evil dalai himself fully admits to being sinful, unholy, perverted, it follows that the evil dalai, by his own admission, cannot be a buddha or a high bodhisattva such as Chenrezig.
Besides, the evil dalai being, by his own admission, a sinful, unholy, perverted character, it follows that trying to justify, glorify, and even sanctify him, calling him a ”buddha”, or a ”high bodhisattva” such as Chenrezig, is actually tantamount to defaming, degrading, and disparaging buddhas and high bodhisattvas.
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How many people have to suffer for the sake of the greater good... [?]
This story of ”people having to suffer for the for the sake of the greater good” stinks to Jewish, Christian, and Muslim apocalyptical ideologies, whereby wars, massacres, genocides, and jihads are justified as necessary for the sake of the ”coming” of the Jewish Messiah, of the ”second coming” of Jesus, or of the ”return” of the prophet Mahdi, in any case with a view to implanting a worldwide absolute theocracy, be it the Jewish ”Kingship”, the Christian ”Kingdom of God”, or the global Islamic rule envisioned by jihadists.
Now, looks like some misguided Dorje Shugden proponents, obviously under the sickening influence of Abrahamic beliefs, are suggesting that the evil dalai's persecutions are similarly justified and necessary, for the sake of Dorje Shugden becoming recognized by the whole humankind as the new ”world protector”, ”the most popular deity in the world”, or the such, which would usher in a new era for humanity -- this being the ”greater good” they claim in order to integrate the whole dalaite criminality into the ”bigger picture”.
In any case, what we are dealing with is what psychiatric science knows as ”delusions of grandeur”, or ”grandiose delusions”, a delusional disorder which is at the very root of Abrahamic ideologies, but which lacks any Buddhist roots or lineage, and specifically has absolutely nothing to do with Je Tsongkhapa's teachings or with Dorje Shugden, which are about giving up wordly concerns to start with.
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The Dalai Lama is seen as a perfect embodiment of a Buddha EXCEPT in relations to the Dorje Shugden issue.
I'm sorry WisdomBeing, but this isn't true. There is the Mongoose-Canine letter that lists many murky issues that the Dalai Lama has been involved in.
http://dorjeshugdentruth.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/the-mixing-of-dharma-and-politics-the-mongoose-canine-letter/ (http://dorjeshugdentruth.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/the-mixing-of-dharma-and-politics-the-mongoose-canine-letter/)
He actively engaged the CIA to train a guerrilla army who could fight the Chinese while claiming that he supported a non-violent approach. He has acted like a conventional politician, often saying one thing while doing something else extremely suspect and not in accordance with Buddha's teachings. There is the murder of Gungthang Tsultrim and many other issues that he has been implicated in - how much did he know about these things? His actions are questionable to say the least.
In relation to the the Dorje Shugden issue, he has completely denounced his own lineage Gurus and Teachers, branding them effectively as criminals and spirit worshippers so he has broken his connection with the Lineage of Je Tsongkhapa and he is questionably trying to merge all Tibetan traditions under his control, so with respect to all these issues he has not shown the example of being a perfect embodiment of Buddha.
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[...] so with respect to all these issues he has not shown the example of being a perfect embodiment of Buddha.
Or rather, he, the evil dalai, has shown the example of being a perfect embodiment of an evil spirit hell bent on destroying Buddhism, and harming innocent people.
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It has been said that the Dalai Lama is not compassionate in that he has:
1. broken samaya with his Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche, by stopping his Dorje Shugden practice
2. condemned Dorje Shugden practice and caused suffering to Dorje Shugden practitioners
3. created schism amongst the sangha and the Tibetan people because of his continuous sanction of the ban.
The Dalai Lama is seen as a perfect embodiment of a Buddha EXCEPT in relations to the Dorje Shugden issue. Can our view of him see him as separate from the Dorje Shugden issue?
When the king is naked I would say he is naked, I am not Tibetan and he is not my guru anyway. To play safe, I would add that it may be an act of bodhisattva whose aim I don't understand(as a lot Tibetan including some of my gurus said he is a bodhisattva) . But certainly I would not say it's because he want to promote Dorje Shugden as he is hurting the Geluk lineage in general, not just those practicing Dorje Shugden...
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Would a Buddha or a Bodhisattva denounce their Teachers and make strenuous efforts to destroy a pure spiritual tradition? Would they cause millions of people to break their spiritual commitments to their Gurus. divide families and cause sectarian hatred and division?
There's no benefit to be gained from the Dalai Lama's actions of religious dictatorship.
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Call him what you will, but it does not change the fact that Trijang Rinpoche in "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors has warned us against passing such judgement on HH Dalai Lama.
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche tells us that "to the common view of beings,it is difficult to fully understand the appearances of Holy Aryas and their inconceivable three secrets (body, speech and mind) at the definitive level". The pure view of the Aryas and Holy Beings are as yet beyond our reach. "Great enlightened beings", Trijang Rinpoche continues, " have also seem to display jealousy towards each other". Is the Dalai Lama jealous of Shugden ?" On the surface perhaps...
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Call him what you will, but it does not change the fact that Trijang Rinpoche in "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors has warned us against passing such judgement on HH Dalai Lama.
Please quote the passage.
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche tells us that "to the common view of beings,it is difficult to fully understand the appearances of Holy Aryas and their inconceivable three secrets (body, speech and mind) at the definitive level".
Sure. But still no reference to the evil dalai. Pehaps it's just your imagination.
The pure view of the Aryas and Holy Beings are as yet beyond our reach. "Great enlightened beings", Trijang Rinpoche continues, "have also seem to display jealousy towards each other".
With or without jealousy, still no mention to the evil dalai. This says a lot.
Is the Dalai Lama jealous of Shugden ?" On the surface perhaps...
Trijang Rinpoche, in skilful way, is saying that the evil dalai is driven by jealousy, could he be clearer?
Anyway, this current, evil dalai, being himself a false Dalai Lama, any statement by Trijang Rinpoche referring to a ”Dalai Lama” does not apply to him.
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It has been said that the Dalai Lama is not compassionate in that he has:
1. broken samaya with his Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche, by stopping his Dorje Shugden practice
2. condemned Dorje Shugden practice and caused suffering to Dorje Shugden practitioners
3. created schism amongst the sangha and the Tibetan people because of his continuous sanction of the ban.
The Dalai Lama is seen as a perfect embodiment of a Buddha EXCEPT in relations to the Dorje Shugden issue. Can our view of him see him as separate from the Dorje Shugden issue?
When the king is naked I would say he is naked, I am not Tibetan and he is not my guru anyway. To play safe, I would add that it may be an act of bodhisattva whose aim I don't understand(as a lot Tibetan including some of my gurus said he is a bodhisattva) . But certainly I would not say it's because he want to promote Dorje Shugden as he is hurting the Geluk lineage in general, not just those practicing Dorje Shugden...
This is what flummoxes me - many high lamas say that the Dalai Lama IS a Bodhisattva. I would presume that these high lamas can see further than us ordinary lay people can see. However, i think it is common knowledge that the Buddha has always told us to question - to even question what the Buddha himself says and that if it does not make sense we can discard it - but i guess we will still see the Buddha as the Buddha even if we don't understand what he is saying.
However, I do not think we can be selective in the sense that we say Dalai Lama is a bodhisattva except for his illogical ban on Dorje Shugden. He either is a bodhisattva or he isn't.
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When the king is naked I would say he is naked, I am not Tibetan and he is not my guru anyway. To play safe, I would add that it may be an act of bodhisattva whose aim I don't understand(as a lot Tibetan including some of my gurus said he is a bodhisattva) . But certainly I would not say it's because he want to promote Dorje Shugden as he is hurting the Geluk lineage in general, not just those practicing Dorje Shugden...
However, I do not think we can be selective in the sense that we say Dalai Lama is a bodhisattva except for his illogical ban on Dorje Shugden. He either is a bodhisattva or he isn't.
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Agree, its' very simple to me:
1. If HHDL be a bodhisattva, he will expect us judge his action based on Dharma teachings. There is a saying that if your king disguised as begger in the street, you better treat him same as a begger instead of as your king. It looks not be a wrong statement that HHDL broke his samaya with Trijiang Rinpoche, by opening comment that his guru's main protector is evil and his guru's students need to give up the practice, even during Trijiang Rinpoche be alive.
2. If HHDL not be bodhisattva, there is not fault we comment based on Dharma teachings also.
All in all, we have no need to take HHDL's high status in Tibet into account regarding this issue, whether HHDL be a bodhisattva or not, just comment as if he is a 'normal monk'(which is always quoted by HHDL anyway) is enough.
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The essence of the situation:
Regardless of who he is, according to worldly conventions his actions are inappropriate and must be stopped. Even if the ban remains in place, it is the active persecution of others that must stop.
Regarding view:
If we learn to regard everything that appears to our mind as a dialogue between us and our Guru that functions to refine our consciousness, we understand that the Guru (our own Buddha nature itself) is constantly requesting us to respond appropriately to what is appearing. Appearances should stimulate the correct views of Sutra and Tantra within our consciousness, that is all. The only "right view" to have of other people are those views contained in Sutra and Tantra, you choose. Either way, the meaning of your life is being seized. This is the most important point.
In Dorje Shugden kangso it says:
"To tame disciples, you perform deeds beyond ordinary understanding,
Appearing as if in a drama as gods, spirits, demons, or deluded beings,
Or as men, women, handicapped people, or even insane beings;
I rejoice in your great kindness towards the doctrine and living beings."
Key words - "to tame". Are you being tamed through applying your Gurus instructions to the appearances of this controversy?
To those who have the DL as a Guru, consider this: Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche once said that Vajradhara appears in an ordinary human aspect so we can relate to him, and that of course he will appear to us to make mistakes. He then said we need to act appropriately and confront our Guru with questions if their behavior does not seem appropriate by normal conventions.
If my Guru is beating someone to death, I will stop them. Though myself and the recipient of the beating may have pure view, if with my eyes I see a human beating a human, that is ordinary appearance, and according to ordinary conventions beating someone to death is inappropriate. So though you may regard the DL as a holy being, it is entirely appropriate to confront him regarding his extremely inappropriate behavior. So what is the view then? Though you may see him as holy, you also see much suffering and develop compassion for the beings he appears to be inflicting suffering on, and you take steps on their behalf just as Jetsun Marpa's wife and disciples pleaded with the Master on Je Mila's behalf.
Otherwise, the DL is a suffering living being, and out of compassion we must take actions to try and stop him from creating immense suffering for himself and others.
Whichever view you have, you can still take action to stop the inappropriate behavior and suffering, even if it is only through prayer. Regardless of who he is, according to worldly conventions his actions are inappropriate and must be stopped. Even if the ban remains in place, it is the active persecution of others that must stop.
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Just as it is totally irrelevant to the situation at hand whether Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not, so it is totally irrelevant to the situation at hand whether or not the DL is Chenrezig or not.
People are being harmed and that shit needs to be stopped!
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Just as it is totally irrelevant to the situation at hand whether Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not, so it is totally irrelevant to the situation at hand whether or not the DL is Chenrezig or not.
You miss the point. The issue is not whether the evil dalai is Chenrezig or not, but rather the sick attitude of deifying a brutal criminal.
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I do get your point, it just isn't that simple.
My point was attempting to address the ongoing battle people are having due to the DL being one of their Gurus. Because of the complex spiritual considerations of Ashvagosha's 50 Verses and other Guru Yoga compositions, and stories like Tilopa/Naropa Marpa/Milarepa, such students have repeatedly tried to resolve their conflict, the constant dialogue on this forum about it over and over again shows this.
Your angle strongly focusses on the appearance of worldly conventions and I couldn't agree more, but it isn't that easy for a disciple of the DL. Therefore, what I shared is an attempt to help such people understand how to keep pure view while dealing firmly with the worldly appearance of their teacher being a brutal dictator.
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Your angle strongly focusses on the appearance of worldly conventions and I couldn't agree more, but it isn't that easy for a disciple of the DL.
There is no such thing as Buddhist disciple without a Buddhist guru. Since the evil dalai, having spurned his own root gurus, lacks any Buddhist lineage, he is not a Buddhist, let alone a Buddhist guru.
Therefore, there is no such thing as a Buddhist disciple of the evil dalai.
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I completey agree with you, but because his disciples, some of whom write on this site, don't see it that way, they are left trying to resolve their inner conflict, which is a complex spiritual labyrinth. Not easy to read about Guru devotion and the dangers mentioned in the lamrim, to then denounce and abandon that Guru callin him a non-Buddhist.
Lama Tsongkhapa does say in such situations it is permissible to respectfully distance ourself from the Guru. There's a subtle karmic dance going on so people need to take care. Your points though are very sound indeed.
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The Dalai's lama's lectures and teachings are amongst the most profound I have encountered.
And he just does not teach to wide eyed Buddhist born again types who gasps at his every word that he speaks. He speaks to world leaders, captains of industry, scientists and quantum physicists and from the debate that is going on here is that, Dalai Lama is con artist and he can fool all such people or pull a cloth around people's heads. Really now?
If he is so clever and devious (the cunning fox that he is the Chinese love to call him ), why did he say publicly that it was alright Trijang Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden? Do we think the Dalai Lama cannot see without magical powers that Dorje Shugden practitioners will rally behind Trijang Rinpoche at some point in the future. People who hate the evil dalai, thinks he is foolish old man, not a Buddha. Think again. The Dalai Lama did not put Buddhism at the centre stage of the world by fumbling and being silly or
deception.
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Due to our impure mind, we have ordinary views and ordinary conception of all phenomena. Ordinary conception is any mind that conceive objects as ordinary.
Hence unless we have pure minds like the Buddhas, all appearances to us are ordinary. All the actions by His Holiness Dalai Lama (DL) in relation to the ban appeared to us as wrong because they are against the worldly conventions. This is an example of an ordinary view. At the conventional level, it is wrong for DL to break the samaya with His guru by saying his gurus and all the Gelug lineage masters were wrong about Dorje Shugden. It is wrong to abandon Dorje Shugden who is an emanation of Buddha Manjushri. It is wrong to discriminate against Dorje Shugden practitioners who are also sentient beings. It is wrong to remove the basic human rights of the Tibetans who practise Dorje Shugden. It is wrong to create schism and to cause harm to Dorje Shugden practitioners. The list is not exhaustive.
Since we are not at the level to comprehend the higher motivation of DL in imposing the ban, we should refrain from condemning DL. Since DL is recognised as Chenrezig, His actions will definitely be for the overall well-being of everyone.
It is the collective karma of all Dorje Shugden practitioners to experience the effects arising from this ban. Once the karma to experience the ban is exhausted, the ban shall come to an end.
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It is also interesting to me that the supposed great nemesis of the Dalai Lama - Geshe Kelsang Gyatso - who is singlehandedly responsible for the largest growth in Dorje Shugden practice in the Western hemisphere, has not publicly condemned the Dalai Lama. Perhaps his minions have gone out to say Dalai Lama stop lying, and Give Religious Freedom, but he himself has not said anything.
Likewise with HH Trijang Rinpoche, HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HE Gonsar Rinpoche and many other Dorje Shugden lamas. They have not said that the Dalai Lama is a fake. At least not that i have heard of.
So perhaps we should follow the example of the higher minds who can see more than any of us lay people?
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I applaud the practitioners here who maintain a strong stance of Pure View, much like Pema Chodron, but this does not alter the fact that the DL is in human form in human society and needs to face the consequences of his criminal behavior.
Also, Dharmaspace, as I've shared, I don't believe there is a contradiction between pure view and dealing in a practical way with things according to common worldly conventions. Also, people keep talking about this permission to Trijang Rinpoche and Trijang Dorjechang giving transmissions having some clairvoyance to know who the DL really is. We need to also understand that due to certain conventions, certain actions must be taken in order to maintain harmony. For example, due to their relationship with the Tibetan community, someone who has deep respect for Dorje Shugden and Trijang Dorjechang has to alter their outer relationship with the Protector, through relying upon him through Yamantaka and Guhyasamaja practice or in complete inner secrecy, not because they agree with the DL, but because of how it would affect their many students and relationships if they didn't alter their outer aspect.
And WisdomBeing, the Venerable Yogi Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche has spoken out publicly against the DL. The condemnation is not of the DL, but his criminal actions against humanity and Je Tsongkhapa's lineage. Just because someone may be an emanation of a holy being does not exempt them from the laws of the human world in which they are operating, Period!
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The great leaders of the world have to know more about what the Dalai Lama is doing to the Tibetan people and also non Tibetans who are followers of Dorje Shugden. These great leaders may not be Buddhists and they could not care less if the Dalai Lama is a Bodhisattva or not. What they would care of is why would a man who preaches love and compassion, while wearing one mask, then changes to another mask, and condemns another person’s spiritual belief. All it takes is just one Head of State to notice and say, “Hey, something is not right with this man, the Dalai Lama, is he a wolf in sheep’s clothing?” Hence the continuous efforts of the people behind this wonderful website and also thanks to the many voices of its viewers will bring to light to the world, the plight of those people suffering and being unjustly condemned just because of their spiritual belief.
@WisdomBeing
Even though other great masters who are continuing with the spread and initiation of Dorje Shugden’s practice have not publicly spoken out against the Dalai Lama, they also did not stop their students and benefactors from protesting either. I wonder why.
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What is the valid basis for believing that the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara? Because, shockingly, he said so in Washington recently? These days anyone who says they are a Buddha probably isn't. It is just blind faith that believes that the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara when his actions are not compassionate. This is from a Tricycle interview with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso from 1998:
Lopez: Do you believe that the Dalai Lama is an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara?
GKG: If he is an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara why he is causing so many people suffering? Why is he causing the spiritual life of so many people to be destroyed? Now there is big confusion. Since His Holiness the Dalai Lama removed Shugden statues from Gelugpa monasteries and temples and claimed that Shugden is a worldly, harmful spirit, people throughout the Buddhist world have begun to have doubts about the general dharma of the Gelugpa tradition, and in particular the dharma of Je Pabongka and Trijang Rinpoche. Now you can see the belief pervading everywhere that these lamas and their tradition are invalid and impure. How can His Holiness the Dalai Lama do this, unless he thinks that the dharma taught by Trijang Rinpoche is not the real dharma? What he is doing now is putting great effort to destroy the Dharma taught by his own spiritual guide. This is a very horrible example, because every Buddhist practitioner believes that relying on the spiritual guide is the root of the path and the very essence of the practice. He is showing that the lama or spiritual guide doesn’t matter. How can Avalokiteshvara do this?
Check the Dalai Lama's actions, they are not those of Avalokiteshvara.
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Excellent Lineageholder, thank you.
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What is the valid basis for believing that the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara? Because, shockingly, he said so in Washington recently? These days anyone who says they are a Buddha probably isn't. It is just blind faith that believes that the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara when his actions are not compassionate. This is from a Tricycle interview with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso from 1998:
Lopez: Do you believe that the Dalai Lama is an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara?
GKG: If he is an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara why he is causing so many people suffering? Why is he causing the spiritual life of so many people to be destroyed? Now there is big confusion. Since His Holiness the Dalai Lama removed Shugden statues from Gelugpa monasteries and temples and claimed that Shugden is a worldly, harmful spirit, people throughout the Buddhist world have begun to have doubts about the general dharma of the Gelugpa tradition, and in particular the dharma of Je Pabongka and Trijang Rinpoche. Now you can see the belief pervading everywhere that these lamas and their tradition are invalid and impure. How can His Holiness the Dalai Lama do this, unless he thinks that the dharma taught by Trijang Rinpoche is not the real dharma? What he is doing now is putting great effort to destroy the Dharma taught by his own spiritual guide. This is a very horrible example, because every Buddhist practitioner believes that relying on the spiritual guide is the root of the path and the very essence of the practice. He is showing that the lama or spiritual guide doesn’t matter. How can Avalokiteshvara do this?
Check the Dalai Lama's actions, they are not those of Avalokiteshvara.
Good points from Geshela however, I could also hypothetically say that the Dalai Lama may be causing all this to cleanse out all the weak, hypocritical disciples of the pure Gelugpa lineage. Only those who are stong, devoted, sincere and with pure Guru Devotion intact would continue loyally with their Guru? I'm not saying that this is what DL is doing... I am just trying to see another possible angle to all this. Because despite what DL is doing to Dorje Shugden, there is also a lot of other positive things he has done to bring Vajrayana Buddhism to its prime in the West. That we have got to give credit for. If it was not for HHDL, Vajrayana Buddhism would not take root so easily and quickly in the West. This includes Geshela's work and many others like Lama Yeshe for FPMT. BUT That does not mean what He is doing, banning Dorje Shugden is right, that is for sure... yet if it was not because of the ban, do you think we would be working this hard to promote the TRUTH?
I stand on Trijang Rinpoche's advice to watch my speech and to be aware of my thoughts regarding these divine illusory play of these Highly attained Lamas.
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I applaud the practitioners here who maintain a strong stance of Pure View, much like Pema Chodron, but this does not alter the fact that the DL is in human form in human society and needs to face the consequences of his criminal behavior.
Also, Dharmaspace, as I've shared, I don't believe there is a contradiction between pure view and dealing in a practical way with things according to common worldly conventions. Also, people keep talking about this permission to Trijang Rinpoche and Trijang Dorjechang giving transmissions having some clairvoyance to know who the DL really is. We need to also understand that due to certain conventions, certain actions must be taken in order to maintain harmony. For example, due to their relationship with the Tibetan community, someone who has deep respect for Dorje Shugden and Trijang Dorjechang has to alter their outer relationship with the Protector, through relying upon him through Yamantaka and Guhyasamaja practice or in complete inner secrecy, not because they agree with the DL, but because of how it would affect their many students and relationships if they didn't alter their outer aspect.
And WisdomBeing, the Venerable Yogi Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche has spoken out publicly against the DL. The condemnation is not of the DL, but his criminal actions against humanity and Je Tsongkhapa's lineage. Just because someone may be an emanation of a holy being does not exempt them from the laws of the human world in which they are operating, Period!
Psylo I see where your views are coming from... yet we are all still very much tainted and can only like you said "deal in a practical way with things according to common worldly conventions". YES wordly conventions which also says we ourselves do not have the ability to truly really judge anyone for that matter.
Yes the actions created and caused by HHDL is definitely wrong and well, what happened to the democratic temporal central administration that is suppose to abide by the laws of democracy. Aren't they the ones that is suppose to implement or disband anything that is not right in the democratic constitution? HHDL also has retired from the political aspects, so what happened to CTA? Why do they execute, implement such horrible discrimination? They are the ones posting up a hit list of Shugdenpa High Lamas and people all around the city. Now you are probably going to say well they have no backbone and they execute whatever HHDL says, but isn't this not right?
I mean the Queen of England does not dictate the laws and policies of Great Britain's democratic parliament and the PM does his job accordingly. So if CTA has no backbone, then the CTA is a really like a fake government that is not doing their job, hence that should be renewed. Besides DL has also said that this life may probably be the last of the Dalai Lamas and if there is no need for a 15th, then this will be it. So, isn't it more important to polish up better leaders?
All I am saying is that while we can agree to disagree in the view of the Dalai Lama, we should not let the CTA get away scotch free and perhaps look in to a better temporal govt. for the Tibetan exile community too.
If the government is Buddhist as it claims, then they should be banning the Bon (this is hypothetical and I am not suggesting that the TGIE ban the Bon religion at all). Bon is clearly identified as non Buddhist, but they are allowed to attend the Dalai Lama’s teachings and their children allowed to attend schools etc. Banning Gelug monks who propitiate Dorje Shugden seems like favoring outsiders over one’s family.
I think the Tibetan Youth Congress is also being giving the heat... http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/articles-controversy/point-7-resolution-passed-by-the-tibetan-youth-congress-1997/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/articles-controversy/point-7-resolution-passed-by-the-tibetan-youth-congress-1997/)
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Dsiluvu,
All the 'Dharma-training-karma-creating-so and so Lama said-elaborate discussions aside, the bottom line is
The DL is in a human body living in human society and him along with the CTA (which he still runs though not by title) have broken the laws of Dharma and International Human Rights and it is entirely appropriate that they be held accountable.
Whether we maintain pure view of the DL, or have compassion for the DL as a sentient being, we are training our mind in Sutra or Tantra. This is our own personal decision. But, according to common appearance, the DL is a human being and his actions require practical human intervention to stop the harmful behavior.
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the DL is a human being and his actions require practical human intervention to stop the harmful behavior.
So true. A poisonous snake might be a buddha, but still has to be treated as a poisonous snake. The same applies to Jack the Ripper, Osama bin Laden, or the evil dalai. We cannot know whether or not they are buddhas, but we can know that they are criminals, and as such they should be treated.
Now, why those propounding a ”pure view” of the evil dalai do not build shrines to and prostrate themselves to Jack the Ripper or Osama bin Laden, calling them ”His Holiness” as well? Where is their ”pure view”?
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The Dalai's lama's lectures and teachings are amongst the most profound I have encountered.
You are probably under the influence of some collective hysteria. The ”teachings” and ”lectures” of the evil dalai are mainly political garbage, and even the Dharma words he mechanically repeats are utterly uninspiring, bereft as they are of any sincerity and heart feeling.
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So perhaps we should follow the example of the higher minds who can see more than any of us lay people?
Why not to follow the teaching of the Buddha and judge for ourselves, according to direct perception and inference?
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Likewise with HH Trijang Rinpoche, HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HE Gonsar Rinpoche and many other Dorje Shugden lamas. They have not said that the Dalai Lama is a fake. At least not that i have heard of.
Why should they? This is a purely political issue, and such pure lamas are not into politics.
But for those who are into politics, thus deifying the evil criminal, it makes perfect sense to realize his fakeness.
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The Dalai Lama did not put Buddhism at the centre stage of the world by fumbling and being silly or
deception.
Don't fool yourself. It is not that the evil dalai ”put Buddhism at the centre stage of the world”, but rather that Western geopolitics masterminds put the evil dalai as a puppet at the centre stage of the world, as a weapon against China, and using a pretense of Buddhism as a convenient cover.
And, since Western geopolitics masterminds are psycopathic practicing Jews such as Henry Kissinger, they are all hell bent on destroying whatever and whoever does not submit to their jealous, power-obsessed ”god” Jehovah, as commanded by their scriptures, and thus are hell bent on destroying Buddhism, together with every other form or shape of ”paganism”.
Now the evil dalai, having put himself as a puppet at the service of such Abrahamic barbarians, is the internal enemy of Buddhism, a transvestite of Buddhist, himself hell bent on destroying a pure tradition such as the Gelugpa, and replacing it with his catholic, witch-hunting ”rime” criminal ideology, so that he can receive his allowance from some Jewish bankster at the end of the month.
And since one picture says more than one thousand words, below follows the picture of George Soros, the specific Jewish bankster and convicted criminal paying the evil dalai's monthly allowances.
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Now, why those propounding a ”pure view” of the evil dalai do not build shrines to and prostrate themselves to Jack the Ripper or Osama bin Laden, calling them ”His Holiness” as well? Where is their ”pure view”?
Nowhere. Their alleged ”pure view” is just a narcissistic way of justifying their own identification and accomplicity with crime, and with criminals such a the evil dalai.
Such alleged ”pure view” has nothing to do with Dharma, but only with their own self-aggrandizing personality disorder, and with their need to feel good while supporting evil.
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It is sad that people continue to ignore the advice of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche concerning the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden. People always choose to view the Dalai Lama through ordinary perception and worse of all, they call him names and say he is evil.
The funny thing is history is replete with Mahasiddhas that were called evil and bad... Dorje Shugden was once Birwapa, whose name meant goitered hero. Monks from Nalanda used to think he was a bad monk who slept with women. In actuality, he was gaining higher grounds on the path of Tantra and the women they saw were actually dakinis who descended due to his practice. The monks regretted later when it was finally revealed that Birwapa was highly attained but the karma to received blessings and teachings from a Mahasiddha was over as Birwapa left the monastery and never returned.
If praising attained beings bring us blessings and purification, then the opposite must also be true - degrading and calling attained beings negative names must bring about negative results /karma. This is not to mention that they will never achieve pure perception in tantra that is so necessary in gaining tantric attainments. In other words, more sufferings and more endless rounds in samsara.
Golden words of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche:-
But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external and internal maras without exception. - Page 125 of Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors
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If praising attained beings bring us blessings and purification, then the opposite must also be true.
Surely. Praising criminals such a the evil dalai must result in endless eons of suffering.
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Using either one as a reason not to admire the other
Dorje Shugden is never a reason not to admire the evil dalai; the evilness of the latter is.
and speaking badly about either in any way
”Speaking bad” implies an evil, malicious intent, and the use of lies. Analyzing reality in an impartial way has none of such elements. Meanwhile, covering reality through deification of evil is a behavior fully infected by such improper elements.
Therefore, the warning of Trijang Rinpoche should be taken in the sense that we should analyze reality in an impartial way, not to maliciously cover it through deification of evil.
is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies;
This is precisely what the evil dalai does, whereby we should take the advice of Trijang Rinpoche to heart as a prophetic statement denouncing the evil dalai.
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The funny thing is history is replete with Mahasiddhas that were called evil and bad...
The sad thing is that history is also replete with evil criminals that were and still are sanctified by their sanctimonious acolytes.
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Buddhism often talks about the motivation behind an act and not the act in itself. However if an action resulted in suffering then that is also a fact. But Buddha also taught that that is the nature of samsara. There will always be suffering in samsara regardless what caused the sufferings.
I don't buy any of the arguments given here. There's a lot of "blind" faith talk here and no real logical reasoning. Everything is about how one perceive Buddha and if one perceive HHTDL to be a Buddha. Perception, perception. We can argue till kingdom come but it still boils down to how one "choose" to perceive a Lama. What is the truth? As ALL of us are supposedly in samsara, we are all subject to wrong views and perceptions. So no two person can perceive the same truth. Your truth will always be different from my truth....and yet we constantly wants to argue our truth is the caoorect one. It's just your perceptions. Everything is just a matter of who's better at convincing people.
The is no right or wrong view about HHTDL. Only He knows what is His true motivation. The rest is just up to every individual to decide for themselves what view they choose to accept as most convincing or convenient to them.
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The is no right or wrong view about HHTDL. Only He knows what is His true motivation.
What an unwarranted statement. Samsaric beings in general, and people severely affected by Jekyll and Hyde multiple personality disorder, popularly know as schizophrenia, such as the evil dalai, in particular, are mostly unaware of their own motivations.
Actually, your statement implies that the evil dalai is a buddha, because only buddhas can be fully aware of their own motivations. But since you claim that there is no right or wrong view about the evil dalai, it follows that you are not aware of, and do contradict, your own statements.
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Because despite what DL is doing to Dorje Shugden, there is also a lot of other positive things he has done to bring Vajrayana Buddhism to its prime in the West. That we have got to give credit for. If it was not for HHDL, Vajrayana Buddhism would not take root so easily and quickly in the West.
The very root of Vajrayana is reliance on the guru, and the evil dalai derides, defames, and discredits his own root gurus, such as Ling and Trijang Rinpoches.
Therefore, there is zero Vajrayana brought by the evil dalai to the West or anywhere else, and actually the evil entity only brought the disgrace of his own broken vows and commitments, and of instigating people to break their own vows and commitments.
Thus, as far as the evil dalai is concerned, there is nothing we have got to give credit for, except for the example of what not to do, which is a shamefully poor performance for a self-styled ”Chenrezig”.
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Would an attained being ever bring disrepute on their Guru and what he teaches? What benefit is there in getting people to break their spiritual commitments to their Teachers and to defame a pure spiritual practice and its followers?
If you can answer these questions, I think you can have the right view of the Dalai Lama whose actions are similar to those of Langdharma.
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But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external and internal maras without exception. - Page 125 of Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors
Lineageholder what would you say to the passage above? Is Trijang Rinpoche is also a deluded being who does not know what he is talking about, you wanted the passage and now you have it. Trijang Rinpoche is saying not just about Dalai Lama, but the entire buddhist tradition there is no one capable to dispelling a mere demon, that to me is a truth? Plus Trijang Rinpoche is saying Dalai Lama is enlightened hence we should not criticise the actions of the Dalai Lama, so Trijang Rinpoche can be enlightened for a few sentences and unenlightened in the next few? You really can't have it both ways.
Perhaps you may need to think out of the box :), that the ban is indeed a skillful way to bring Je Tsongkhapa's tradition to the entire world? Well what Trijang Rinpoche said is good enough for me.
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I don't buy any of the arguments given here. There's a lot of "blind" faith talk here and no real logical reasoning.
The problem is that, while attacking wholesale every statement on this thread as lacking ”real logical reasoning”, you lacked the honesty, or maybe the balls, to identify such statements, and why they would lack any ”real logical reasoning”.
Everything is about how one perceive Buddha and if one perceive HHTDL to be a Buddha. Perception, perception. We can argue till kingdom come but it still boils down to how one "choose" to perceive a Lama. What is the truth?
Your view is the well known non-Buddhist, nihilistic view that there is no reality to be uncovered through investigation and analysis. Reality, in your view, is optional; anything goes as long as you ”choose” it. There is no dependent arising, no cause and result, and no reliable knowledge such as direct perception or inference.
Besides, you attack others for their supposed lack of ”real logical reasoning”, just to be caught with pants down only two lines later, rather illogically implying that a ”real logical reasoning” is not possible at all.
As ALL of us are supposedly in samsara, we are all subject to wrong views and perceptions. So no two person can perceive the same truth.
Wrong. Direct perception and inference are reliable knowledge, and are within the reach of samsaric beings. If samsaric beings could not perceive the same truths, there would be no right view, no path, and no result.
Besides, according to your own mistaken assumption that all views and perceptions of samsaric beings are wrong, your own statement would be itself a wrong view, which by the way happens to be exactly the case.
Your truth will always be different from my truth....and yet we constantly wants to argue our truth is the caoorect one.
Some people constantly argue, but are unable to settle their views, because they argue on the basis of, and are attached to, self-contradictory assumptions, such as those stated by you.
Another factor preventing a fruitful discussion is wholesale attacking the views of everyone else, but not specifying what you believe is wrong with them, and why. Honesty is therefore essential.
It's just your perceptions. Everything is just a matter of who's better at convincing people.
If so, your own view that ”it's just your perceptions” is itself just your own perception, and thus lacks any reliability or authoritativeness. But, since you claim this view to be reliable or authoritative, you obviously cannot convince anyone of such a self-contradictory garbage.
Your nihilistic, non-Buddhist, and self-contradictory belief that there is no right view, and that everything boils down to rhetoric skills, is also well known in the West since the Greeks as the fallacious, deceptive view of the Sophists, as they were described by Plato.
The is no right or wrong view about HHTDL.
Which means, for you anything goes. There is no karma, no dependent arising, no right view, no right conduct, no skillful or unskillful actions, and no result of actions. To kill is OK, to lie is OK, to steal is OK, to rape is OK, as long as it is convenient to you. This means that you lack refuge vows, and therefore that you are a non-Buddhist.
Only He knows what is His true motivation.
From your biblical capitalizations (”He”, ”His”), it is clear that your nihilistic, non-Buddhist views brought you to believe in the divinity of the evil dalai, much as Jews believe in the divinity of their evildoing ”god”.
Maybe one reason why dalaism is so successful in the West is that many people, like you, are just looking for a fanciful, Shangri-la way of keeping their old Jewish-Christian patterns, such as divinizing evil.
The rest is just up to every individual to decide for themselves what view they choose to accept as most convincing or convenient to them.
Of course. Everyone can choose to a be a Buddhist or, as in your case, to be a non-Buddhist, or even a transvestite of Buddhist.
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But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external and internal maras without exception. - Page 125 of Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors
Lineageholder what would you say to the passage above? Is Trijang Rinpoche is also a deluded being who does not know what he is talking about, you wanted the passage and now you have it. Trijang Rinpoche is saying not just about Dalai Lama, but the entire buddhist tradition there is no one capable to dispelling a mere demon, that to me is a truth? Plus Trijang Rinpoche is saying Dalai Lama is enlightened hence we should not criticise the actions of the Dalai Lama, so Trijang Rinpoche can be enlightened for a few sentences and unenlightened in the next few? You really can't have it both ways.
Perhaps you may need to think out of the box :), that the ban is indeed a skillful way to bring Je Tsongkhapa's tradition to the entire world? Well what Trijang Rinpoche said is good enough for me.
Real Boddhisattvas will never reveal who they are and what they or why the do the things they do. When we study, look back in past history of great Mahasiddhas like Tilopa, Naropa, Biwarpa (who is the line of incarnations of Dorje Shugden) and many more Mahasiddhas. The magicians and saints who founded the lineages of the Tantric tradition was well-known to be unconventional. They always show the opposite and to the impure mind, the commoners, they see only what their karmic perceptions could perceive for them at that moment. So like for some, yes HHDL is in a human form and be judge according to common appearance, yes that may seems “correct” and sensible but that is still only the surface and seems rather weak. Definitely I don’t buy this at all!
Yes based on results... and not physical appearance, I would lean towards the kind advice by H.H. Trijang Rinpoche and to safe guard our body, speech and mind about HHDL or anyone whom we meet actually.
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Real Boddhisattvas will never reveal who they are and what they or why the do the things they do.
The Buddha clearly declared who he was, what he did, and why he did what he did. As opposed to the evil dalai, he never harmed anyone, did not commit any crimes, and never gave any wrong teachings and examples. I follow the Buddha, you follow a criminal. I am a Buddhist, you are a dalaite.
Yes based on results... and not physical appearance, I would lean towards the kind advice by H.H. Trijang Rinpoche and to safe guard our body, speech and mind about HHDL or anyone whom we meet actually.
Which ”results”? The horrendous schism created within Tibetan society? The horrendous severance of the sacred bonds between gurus and disciples? The horrendous self-immolations and murderous racist riots? The horrendous, medieval witch hunts?
Why don't you safeguard your body, speech, and mind, refraining from admiring, supporting, and legitimizing an evil criminal together with his crimes? Becoming as you do an accomplice of such crimes you are arguably only safeguarding your own place in hell.
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Can he still be considered a "Buddha" because of these negative actions?
Leaving aside the Abrahamic associations of the terms ”sin” and ”sinful”, a buddha, or even a high bodhisattva such as Chenrezig, by definition, are never sinful. Having destroyed the mental afflictions, such as anger, lust, and ignorance, it is impossible for them to engage in any iniquity or harmful action.
Meanwhile, the evil dalai himself fully recognizes that ”discriminating people on the basis of religion is sinful”. Since this is precisely what he brazenly, unapologetically, and relentlessly does for decades, it follows that the evil dalai himself fully admits to his own sinful, unholy, perverted character.
Therefore, since a buddha, or even a high bodhisattva, by definition, can never be sinful, unholy, perverted, and since the evil dalai himself fully admits to being sinful, unholy, perverted, it follows that the evil dalai, by his own admission, cannot be a buddha or a high bodhisattva such as Chenrezig.
Besides, the evil dalai being, by his own admission, a sinful, unholy, perverted character, it follows that trying to justify, glorify, and even sanctify him, calling him a ”buddha”, or a ”high bodhisattva” such as Chenrezig, is actually tantamount to defaming, degrading, and disparaging buddhas and high bodhisattvas.
The 'evil dalai' is the creation of your mind as I understand. Therefore what you say is mute because the living Dalai Lama never says such things. Even if Dalai Lama admit on such wrong doings because he is a Buddha he doesn't accrue any negative karma based on the definition as you stated. Furthermore to your definition that Buddha doesn't engage in negative and harmful action it means what you see now as negative to you but to Dalai Lama no harm is done from his side. If you don't have the negative karma to receive harm you won't see Dalai Lama actions as negative due you seeing him as the Buddha.
For lay people to lead others to wrong understanding and creating more doubts on Dalai Lama you create tremendous negative karma. That is a fact.
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The Dalai's lama's lectures and teachings are amongst the most profound I have encountered.
You are probably under the influence of some collective hysteria. The ”teachings” and ”lectures” of the evil dalai are mainly political garbage, and even the Dharma words he mechanically repeats are utterly uninspiring, bereft as they are of any sincerity and heart feeling.
You arguments hold no water compare to the Dalai Lama because obviously he has done more for others. Without the Dalai Lama the Buddha Dharma won't have spread to the West. A beginner in English would obviously get the advice given by Dalai Lama on being a kind hearted human.
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Because despite what DL is doing to Dorje Shugden, there is also a lot of other positive things he has done to bring Vajrayana Buddhism to its prime in the West. That we have got to give credit for. If it was not for HHDL, Vajrayana Buddhism would not take root so easily and quickly in the West.
The very root of Vajrayana is reliance on the guru, and the evil dalai derides, defames, and discredits his own root gurus, such as Ling and Trijang Rinpoches.
Therefore, there is zero Vajrayana brought by the evil dalai to the West or anywhere else, and actually the evil entity only brought the disgrace of his own broken vows and commitments, and of instigating people to break their own vows and commitments.
Thus, as far as the evil dalai is concerned, there is nothing we have got to give credit for, except for the example of what not to do, which is a shamefully poor performance for a self-styled ”Chenrezig”.
You can see Dalai Lama broken his vows and commitments? By your logic you are equal to Dalai Lama's guru? Dalai Lama is going strong with his "broken" vows and commitments it seems.
If one is instigated and influenced by others to do negative actions it says something about how strong is their reliance and devotion to their gurus. Others can instigated us to break our vows and commitments and we don't have to follow and listen to what they say. The Dorje Shugden practitioners choose to listen to their gurus compare to those who don't. The anti-Dorje Shugden practitioners have a choice of not hurting the Dorje Shugden practitioners.
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The is no right or wrong view about HHTDL. Only He knows what is His true motivation.
What an unwarranted statement. Samsaric beings in general, and people severely affected by Jekyll and Hyde multiple personality disorder, popularly know as schizophrenia, such as the evil dalai, in particular, are mostly unaware of their own motivations.
Actually, your statement implies that the evil dalai is a buddha, because only buddhas can be fully aware of their own motivations. But since you claim that there is no right or wrong view about the evil dalai, it follows that you are not aware of, and do contradict, your own statements.
You are aware of Dalai Lama motivations?
You contradict your statements as well.
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Buddhism often talks about the motivation behind an act and not the act in itself. However if an action resulted in suffering then that is also a fact. But Buddha also taught that that is the nature of samsara. There will always be suffering in samsara regardless what caused the sufferings.
I don't buy any of the arguments given here. There's a lot of "blind" faith talk here and no real logical reasoning. Everything is about how one perceive Buddha and if one perceive HHTDL to be a Buddha. Perception, perception. We can argue till kingdom come but it still boils down to how one "choose" to perceive a Lama. What is the truth? As ALL of us are supposedly in samsara, we are all subject to wrong views and perceptions. So no two person can perceive the same truth. Your truth will always be different from my truth....and yet we constantly wants to argue our truth is the caoorect one. It's just your perceptions. Everything is just a matter of who's better at convincing people.
The is no right or wrong view about HHTDL. Only He knows what is His true motivation. The rest is just up to every individual to decide for themselves what view they choose to accept as most convincing or convenient to them.
The Buddha taught us to collect merits and purifies our own karma to be free of suffering. Indeed the actions that cause others more suffering is a fact. The reason why motivation is mentioned here because both motivations and actions contribute the suffering. It is not just actions alone. The lack of wisdom is the reason why we act wrongly even if we have good motivations. Therefore to accumulate more wisdom we need to gain merits by having a guru to instruct us. The guru is someone who can convey the essence of Dharma teachings and practices to us. I wish you luck and patience in learning more here. There is a General Buddhism section for you to clarify fundamental Dharma questions. Happy learning :)
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?board=10.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?board=10.0)
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Lineageholder what would you say to the passage above?
I would say that I applaud your ability to hold onto a pure view in the face of a montain of evidence to the contrary. Trijang Rinpoche is not saying that the 14th Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara, he's saying that in general the Dalai Lama is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara. Many people believe that the wrong person was chosen to be the present Dalai Lama because of the Reting Rinpoche's deception. Please read the story and make up your own mind.
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/dalai-lama/the-false-dalai-lama/ (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/dalai-lama/the-false-dalai-lama/)
Quoting is scripture is all very well but we also need to use our own intelligence and wisdom to come to sound conclusions. There's nothing beneficial about the Dalai Lama's actions which are against his own Teacher and lineage so I have to conclude that 'Tenzin Gyatso' is not the Dalai Lama but a falsely chosen destroyer of Buddhadharma who is more likely to be an incarnation of Ishvara than Gendundrub.
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Regardless of your view, this shit needs to stop!
To common appearance he is a human being acting like a dictator and causing immense suffering. He lives in human society, he must follow the laws of this society or face the consequences.
I understand being protective of your karma and your pure view, but focussing on all the 'good things' this man has done to the point of defending his actions in human society is really disgusting and surprising to hear from Buddhists. In human society, normal people don't consider such things as whether or not someone's actions are those of a Buddha, nor would they agree that it is ok for someone to do what he's doing because people call him a Buddha. His actions are wrong, and they will be stopped.
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focussing on all the 'good things' this man has done to the point of defending his actions in human society is really disgusting and surprising to hear from Buddhists.
So true. This shows that these so-called ”Buddhists”, having taken refuge in a dastard criminal as opposed to the Three Jewels, are not Buddhists at all; rather, they are just dalaites, the followers of an evil, sinister personality cult.
In human society, normal people don't consider such things as whether or not someone's actions are those of a Buddha, nor would they agree that it is ok for someone to do what he's doing because people call him a Buddha.
Again so true. This shows the deeply anti-humanistic, obscurantist nature of the sinister dalaite personality cult, together with its medieval witch hunts.
Besides, those who use the name of the Buddha to justify crimes against humanity not only disgrace the Buddha and his Dharma, but also are criminals in their own right.
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There's nothing beneficial about the Dalai Lama's actions which are against his own Teacher and lineage so I have to conclude that 'Tenzin Gyatso' is not the Dalai Lama but a falsely chosen destroyer of Buddhadharma who is more likely to be an incarnation of Ishvara than Gendundrub.
So true. Surely an incarnation if evil, a despicable maniac worth being ejected from human society together with his minions.
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The 'evil dalai' is the creation of your mind as I understand.
Of course the notion evil is relative. For people like you taking delight in evil, evil is imagined as ”good”, and there is only ”good” evil dalai.
Therefore what you say is mute because the living Dalai Lama never says such things.
Of course the evil dalai will never say that he is evil. It is quite naive for you to expect that he would.
What he says is that ”discriminating people on the basis of religion is sinful”. Since however, he does discriminate on the basis of religion, it follows that he does recognizes his own sinful, evil character.
This is part of the evil dalai's Jekyll and Hyde, schizophrenic, multiple personality disorder. He has to preach goodness in order to cover his own sinful, evil actions.
Now, if you choose to rely on what the evil criminal says about himself, rather than on what he does, this is itself an evidence of your own identification with sinfulness and evil.
Even if Dalai Lama admit on such wrong doings because he is a Buddha he doesn't accrue any negative karma based on the definition as you stated.
You try to justify the dastard criminal saying that he is ”a buddha”. This only shows your own connivance with his crimes, and therefore the lack of reliability of your statement.
Furthermore to your definition that Buddha doesn't engage in negative and harmful action it means what you see now as negative to you but to Dalai Lama no harm is done from his side.
Since a criminal never sees harm in his own evil actions, then, according to your depraved logic, every criminal is necessarily a buddha.
If you don't have the negative karma to receive harm you won't see Dalai Lama actions as negative due you seeing him as the Buddha.
Then, according to your logic, since you did not receive harm from the 9/11 attacks, you won't see the terrorists' actions as negative, because you see the terrorists as the Budddha.
Coming from a dalaite as you, I'm not surprised anyway.
For lay people to lead others to wrong understanding and creating more doubts on Dalai Lama you create tremendous negative karma. That is a fact.
You are offending me. I'm not creating ”doubts” about the criminal character of the evil dalai. I'm creating certainties, based on reliable cognizers such as direct perception and inference, which thoroughly destroy any incorrect assumption or even remaining doubts about the dastard criminal, the evil dalai.
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You arguments hold no water compare to the Dalai Lama because obviously he has done more for others.
This is just in an infantile ad hominem argument. My arguments are neither better nor worse depending on my personal virtues of lack thereof.
Anyway, no matter how much I would try, I could hardly do more for the harm of others than the evil dalai.
Without the Dalai Lama the Buddha Dharma won't have spread to the West.
Whatever Dharma there is in the West or anywhere else does not come from the evil dalai, because the very foundation of Dharma is reliance on the guru, which the the evil dalai thoroughly lacks.
A beginner in English would obviously get the advice given by Dalai Lama on being a kind hearted human.
Rather, he would develop only revulsion for Dharma, being under the influence of the evil dalai, or revulsion for the evil dalai's crimes, being under the influence of Dharma.
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You can see Dalai Lama broken his vows and commitments?
Considering the evil nature of the criminal, he probably never had vows and commitments in the first place so that he could break them.
Anyway, for a dalaite like you, disgracing one's gurus and creating schism within the Sangha must be virtuous actions, which explains why you cannot see any broken vows and commitments in your fetish.
By your logic you are equal to Dalai Lama's guru?
Not yet, but eventually. This is the power of reliance on a pure guru. Feel free to try yourself instead of your fetishistic reliance on an evil criminal.
Dalai Lama is going strong with his "broken" vows and commitments it seems.
Funny, I just see weakness. For instance, his ridiculous show of lack of composure and self-respect in front of the peaceful nun in California, his persistent jealousy and fear of supposed spirits, his subservience to his Western puppet-masters, and so forth. But for a perverted dalaite these are signs of ”strength”.
If one is instigated and influenced by others to do negative actions it says something about how strong is their reliance and devotion to their gurus.
And it says a lot as well about the depravity of those instigating and influencing others to do negative actions, as the evil dalai does.
Others can instigated us to break our vows and commitments and we don't have to follow and listen to what they say.
So true. This is a good reason not to break one's vows and commitments through deifying and taking refuge in evil, as represented by the evil dalai.
The Dorje Shugden practitioners choose to listen to their gurus compare to those who don't. The anti-Dorje Shugden practitioners have a choice of not hurting the Dorje Shugden practitioners.
Anti-Dorje Shugden people, engaged as they are in creating schism with the Sangha and disparaging their own lineage gurus, do not qualify as Dharma practitioners to start with. Their only sensible choice is to give up their sinister fetish, the evil dalai, and to help putting him where he belongs, the garbage bin of history.
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You are aware of Dalai Lama motivations?
Since it is only you claiming that the evil dalai is a buddha, it follows that it is only you claiming to be a buddha yourself, because only a buddha can know whether or not someone else is a buddha.
Now, since it is only you claiming to be a buddha, it follows that it is only you claiming to know the evil dalai's motivations. Therefore, you should ask the question above only to yourself (which is quite ridiculous, since as a buddha you should know everything).
You contradict your statements as well.
The original gbds3jewel's claim was that ”there is no right or wrong view about the evil dalai”, which contradicted his other claim that ”the evil dalai is a buddha”, because the latter claim is itself a claim to a right view about the evil dalai.
Therefore, the conversation you intruded is not about just blabbering, as you did, that there are ”contradictions” in someone else's statements, but about showing why and where there are such contradictions, which you did not do.
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Quote from: DharmaSpace on April 19, 2014, 05:52:42 AM
Lineageholder what would you say to the passage above?
I would say that I applaud your ability to hold onto a pure view in the face of a montain of evidence to the contrary. Trijang Rinpoche is not saying that the 14th Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara, he's saying that in general the Dalai Lama is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara. Many people believe that the wrong person was chosen to be the present Dalai Lama because of the Reting Rinpoche's deception. Please read the story and make up your own mind.
[url]http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/dalai-lama/the-false-dalai-lama/[/url] ([url]http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/dalai-lama/the-false-dalai-lama/[/url])
Quoting is scripture is all very well but we also need to use our own intelligence and wisdom to come to sound conclusions. There's nothing beneficial about the Dalai Lama's actions which are against his own Teacher and lineage so I have to conclude that 'Tenzin Gyatso' is not the Dalai Lama but a falsely chosen destroyer of Buddhadharma who is more likely to be an incarnation of Ishvara than Gendundrub.
The Dalai Lama is very beneficial and he puts us Buddhist in the forefront of people's minds and around the world. It is because of the Dalai Lama that Buddhism is considered modern, progressive and contemporary. Which has a lot of knock on effects it is easier for other buddhist organisations to get followers, donations and etc. From where I am standing the Dalai Lama is highly beneficial for Buddhism and not a demon of Ishvara at all.
Yes Dalai Lama said Trijang Rinpoche is incorrect but he also allowed Trijang Rinpoche to carry on practicing Dorje Shugden, isn't that something to indicate to you that all is not to be taken literally and all it seems? Could it be the 'fox' stumbled and fumbled in allowing Trijang Rinpoche to practice and become a rallying for a lot Gelug lamas and supporters around the world to rally around? The 'fox' who can hold his own with physicists and the top minds of the world, 'fumbled'? Yeah right.
If the Dalai Lama was indeed Ishvara as you and your organisation claim, then during the debate exams the examiners, the teachers of the 14th Dalai Lama Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche, all lamas who validated the 14th dalai lamas, monasteries are all fools made by the Tibetan 'Loki'. If such deception can be pulled on Trijang Rinpoche what does it say about the students of Trijang Rinpoche are they also of that quality as to not to be able to recognise a fraud? So where does this end if you call the Dalai Lama as fake? When you take on the personality of the Dalai Lama you have to be able to step into those shoes. It is not as easy as a picnic in Hyde Park.
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The Dalai Lama is very beneficial and he puts us Buddhist in the forefront of people's minds and around the world.
Having broken his guru-disciple bonds, the evil dalai does not have Buddhism in the forefront of his own mind, and thus cannot put Buddhist in the forefront of the minds of others. For instance, what is in the forefront of your own mind is not Buddhism, but rather the sinister personality cult of dalaism.
It is because of the Dalai Lama that Buddhism is considered modern, progressive and contemporary.
Considered by whom? By Western political propaganda, according to which bloody medieval tyrannies such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Israel, etc. are also ”modern, progressive and contemporary”?
Now you were caught yourself red-handed accepting and promoting the brutal theocrat, the witch hunter, the evil dalai as ”modern, progressive and contemporary”. This shows where you come from.
Buddhism does not need the endorsement of Western anti-humanity war propaganda, which picked the evil dalai as their poster boy in order to promote their own evil political agenda.
Which has a lot of knock on effects it is easier for other buddhist organisations to get followers, donations and etc.
Your mind has been corrupted by the mundane concerns with followers and donations, and therefore you support the evil dalai. This shows how corruption and the sinister personality cult of dalaism go hand in hand.
Your basic idea is: ”I don't care if the evil dalai is a criminal violator of human rights, as long as he brings money to me and to my organization.” Therefore, you are not only corrupt, but an accomplice of his crimes and violations.
From where I am standing the Dalai Lama is highly beneficial for Buddhism and not a demon of Ishvara at all.
You are standing, or more exactly crawling, in the deep pit of corruption, or of the eight mundane concerns, such as money and fame at any cost, and therefore very far from any concern with what is beneficial for Buddhism.
As to the evil dalai being ”Ishvara” this is too generous. He is just an ordinary criminal and a ridiculous puppet of Western powers, not better than any Pinochet, Pahlavi, or Suharto.
Yes Dalai Lama said Trijang Rinpoche is incorrect but he also allowed Trijang Rinpoche to carry on practicing Dorje Shugden,
The evil dalai had no choice. The criminal is not as powerful as some project.
isn't that something to indicate to you that all is not to be taken literally and all it seems?
Who would care about taking literally or not the commands of a criminal? Only the criminal's minions, as exemplified by you.
Could it be the 'fox' stumbled and fumbled in allowing Trijang Rinpoche to practice and become a rallying for a lot Gelug lamas and supporters around the world to rally around?
This only shows the power of the lineage, which the evil dalai could no break, no matter how much he tried.
The 'fox' who can hold his own with physicists and the top minds of the world, 'fumbled'? Yeah right.
Your ”physicists and top minds of the world”, just like the evil dalai, are mostly mercenary academia- and media-promoted materialists, bereft of any philosophical worth.
Besides, their friendly dialoguing with the evil dictator says a lot about their own accomplicity with oppressive regimes and religious persecutions, and therefore their utter lack of any humanistic worth.
Anyway, the day you find any meaningful insight coming from such ridiculous, masturbatory, mutually self-promoting, dialogues please report here.
If the Dalai Lama was indeed Ishvara as you and your organisation claim,
I'm not aware of any organizations making such a claim. Lineagerholder made it, but he was too generous seeing Ishvara in an ordinary criminal.
then during the debate exams the examiners, the teachers of the 14th Dalai Lama Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche, all lamas who validated the 14th dalai lamas, monasteries are all fools made by the Tibetan 'Loki'.
Surely they were not fooled by the evil dalai. That's why the evil dalai repudiates them, and they repudiate the authority of the evil dalai.
If such deception can be pulled on Trijang Rinpoche what does it say about the students of Trijang Rinpoche are they also of that quality as to not to be able to recognise a fraud?
So much they do recognize the fraud that they don't accept the evil dalai's authority. You are the only one here accepting it, which says a lot about you.
So where does this end if you call the Dalai Lama as fake?
It ends in people like you, supporting the gross fakery motivaded by your confessed corruption and addiction to worldy concerns such as money and fame, and people like any pure Buddhist practitioner, rejecting the fakery and keeping with their pure vows and commitments.
When you take on the personality of the Dalai Lama you have to be able to step into those shoes. It is not as easy as a picnic in Hyde Park.
It is not easy indeed to be a Jekyll and Hyde multiple personality psychopath criminal, such as the evil dalai. But admiring him as you do, you are on the right way to soon step into similarly dirty shoes.
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I don't think that there's a correct view of His Holiness because it's pretty much up to personal perspectives. As long as we don't create schisms and instigate violence towards His Holiness either offline or online. I personally would believe that His Holiness has His own reasons on implementing the ban, we are not enlightened therefore there's no way we can understand His Holiness's higher intention. Therefore I think it's better to let His Holiness the Dalai Lama to do what He thinks its best to benefit the people because I believe His Holiness is a highly enlightened being. _/\_
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I don't think that there's a correct view of His Holiness because it's pretty much up to personal perspectives.
Of course. What is called "correct view" by someone supporting a criminal is his crimes, as you do, will hardly be called "correct view" by a Buddhist person.
As long as we don't create schisms and instigate violence towards His Holiness either offline or online.
Since you claim to oppose schisms and violence, why then do you support, even holify, the evil dalie, the very source of schisms and violence?
This contradiction shows that you approach is insincere. You do not oppose violence; rather, you just want to legitimize the violence perpetrated by your evil dalie.
I personally would believe that His Holiness has His own reasons on implementing the ban, we are not enlightened therefore there's no way we can understand His Holiness's higher intention.
It's not a matter of being "enlightened" or not, but rather of choosing to be the accomplice of a criminal or not.
In your case, you have chosen to be the accomplice of the criminal dalie, because this choice fits your own sinister propensities.
Therefore I think it's better to let His Holiness the Dalai Lama to do what He thinks its best to benefit the people because I believe His Holiness is a highly enlightened being.
What else could better fit your own criminal-supporting propensities, than proposing to give a free hand to a criminal, such as the evil dalie, so that he can perpetrate more of his crimes?
Your brazen, debauched campaign in favor of the most cruel crimes against humanity shows just how depraved human mind can be, even among people piously claiming to be "Shugdenpas".