Author Topic: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?  (Read 29035 times)

DharmaSpace

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Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« on: October 08, 2011, 09:58:11 AM »
Well my lama had this to say about it, he had met the Dorje Shugden oracle in Gaden and this oracle was a lay person and not very studied or learned. But when he took trance he could teach and answer questions very quickly and this is in audience with the high lamas like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and etc. The oracle under trance can quote this passage or that passages very quickly and precisely.And the same phenomenon occurs with the other Dorje Shugden oracles. 

WoselTenzin

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2011, 03:41:37 PM »
The mind and the body are two separate entities.  Therefore, if an oracle is a suitable vessel for Dorje Shugden to take trance in, then the enlightened mind of Dorje Shugden can enter the physical body of the oracle and use it as a medium to communicate with ordinary beings which would otherwise not be possible.  Therefore, when the oracle takes trance of Dorje Shugden, it is actually Dorje Shugden, the enlightened mind of Manjushri speaking, not the oracle himself.   

Therefore, it is not surprising that he could teach and answer question spontaneously and quote from text effortlessly. In fact, once the trance is over and the oracle recovers from being taken trance in, he would not even be able to know or remember what took place during the trance if in fact a real trance actually took place.

dsiluvu

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2011, 05:50:48 PM »
I've also heard that during trance, many times Dorje Shugden will come in peaceful form to even confer initiations! Wow... in the history of Tibetan oracles Dorje Shugden is about the only Dharma Protector that does that. This is evidence that Dorje Shugden is the wisdom Buddha Manjushri, a Lama and obviously an Enlightened mind.

There is no other Dharma Protector that I've heard who has taken trance and confers initiations and teaches the Dharma. How compassionate he is to manifest in such a way where we could reach him, be so close to him. It also shows us that Dorje Shugden's main goal is ensure that we are on the Dharma path to enlightenment. 

So yes Dorje Shugden definitely exist, that I do not doubt... otherwise we wouldn't be here. It is said as times get more and more degenerate, the more Dorje Shugden will manifest himself stronger. Hence Dorje Shugden's practice suits the mind set of today's people. People wrapped in the disillusions of money, greed, relationship, sex... samsara.  At the beginning it seems Dorje Shugden grants ones wish efficaciously but soon one's mind will be blessed to transform. Truly an amazing Dharma Protector of our times!

WisdomBeing

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2011, 03:56:27 PM »
Belief is a strange thing. What makes us believe? We believe many things which we may not have observed ourselves - when people we trust tell us from their experiences or from our own observations.

I was just discussing the importance of belief with a friend a few days ago and he had said that he wanted to see to believe in ghosts. He then asked me about my faith and how could I believe in Dorje Shugden when I'd never seen him. I told him that I believed because so many of the great masters did - and unless they are all unattained and believe in something completely illusory - Dorje Shugden must exist.

From my own observation also, I have found that my mind has calmed down a lot since I started my Dorje Shugden practice. A skeptic could say that it's psychological but i say that as long as it works, i'm happy.

I'd like to quote the bible, John 20:29 just for the principle: Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
(Yes i was a good little Church-going Christian girl!)
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Big Uncle

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2011, 11:54:25 AM »
Haha! I think some anti-Shugden people might say that Dorje Shugden is a dead god after all the potent rituals that have been performed by the most elite Lamas to destroy Dorje Shugden. Ironically, like many of the people here have already mentioned, he keeps taking trance in oracles. He keeps fulfilling wishes of devotees and strive very much to make the Dharma grow. Although there is so much opposition, Dorje Shugden organisations are flourishing and expanding. If he is a dead god, the prayers would have been empty and all that was mentioned wouldn't occur.

What's amazing is not the fact that Dorje Shugden is still living but the fact that he doesn't retaliate in any way, shape or form. He is always humble and the content of his oracular prophesies are always Dharma. He is always kind and always on the look out for his devotees and is not at all like the vengeful god, the anti-shugden people portray him to be. Personally, he has entered my dreams to consol me when I am facing difficulties. I don't have proof that it is Dorje Shugden but I just know it is him and no other. He is that kind. So, it is really nonsense about what they say about him being vengeful and dangerous.

DSFriend

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 04:40:46 PM »
Right on! What you have written describes the qualities of Dorje Shugden which came from a long line of superb incarnations as illustrious masters, scholars of the highest calibre, whose writings are still being studied in the great monasteries!

Lineage of Dorje Shugden http://dorjeshugden.net/wp/?p=4213

The mind and the body are two separate entities.  Therefore, if an oracle is a suitable vessel for Dorje Shugden to take trance in, then the enlightened mind of Dorje Shugden can enter the physical body of the oracle and use it as a medium to communicate with ordinary beings which would otherwise not be possible.  Therefore, when the oracle takes trance of Dorje Shugden, it is actually Dorje Shugden, the enlightened mind of Manjushri speaking, not the oracle himself.   

Therefore, it is not surprising that he could teach and answer question spontaneously and quote from text effortlessly. In fact, once the trance is over and the oracle recovers from being taken trance in, he would not even be able to know or remember what took place during the trance if in fact a real trance actually took place.


Barzin

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2011, 08:21:51 PM »
Does Dorje Shugden really exist?  Does this website really exist?  So does the controversial really exist?  Then does His Holiness really exist?

If all the above do not exist then Dorje Shugden doesn't exist.  But if all of the above exist then Dorje Shugden exist.

If Dorje Shugden exists, his practice exists.  If his practice exists, his practitioners exist.  If his practitioners exist, then high lamas exist.  If High Lama exist, dharma exist.  In other words, Dorje Shugden is truly so kind to be manifesting in this way to benefit many.  Do we still guess?

tsangpakarpo

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 04:39:37 PM »
If Dorje Shugden does not exist, why is there this forum? How did the image of Dorje Shugden appear?

Were all the great masters too free that they simply composed prayers for this nonexistent Protector? Of course not! Dorje Shugden is real! Everything is explained so well from Dorje Shugden's iconography, prayers, mandala, ministers, his benefits....no one is so free to create all these out of nothing. There must have been substances to support all these! For this I fold my hands to Dorje Shugden! Please continue to protect all of us!

Zach

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 09:09:55 PM »
Haha! I think some anti-Shugden people might say that Dorje Shugden is a dead god after all the potent rituals that have been performed by the most elite Lamas to destroy Dorje Shugden. Ironically, like many of the people here have already mentioned, he keeps taking trance in oracles. He keeps fulfilling wishes of devotees and strive very much to make the Dharma grow. Although there is so much opposition, Dorje Shugden organisations are flourishing and expanding. If he is a dead god, the prayers would have been empty and all that was mentioned wouldn't occur.

What's amazing is not the fact that Dorje Shugden is still living but the fact that he doesn't retaliate in any way, shape or form. He is always humble and the content of his oracular prophesies are always Dharma. He is always kind and always on the look out for his devotees and is not at all like the vengeful god, the anti-shugden people portray him to be. Personally, he has entered my dreams to consol me when I am facing difficulties. I don't have proof that it is Dorje Shugden but I just know it is him and no other. He is that kind. So, it is really nonsense about what they say about him being vengeful and dangerous.

I wish they did think he was dead then they might let the issue drop  ;D It seems obviously the short comings of the Pujas they did to eliminate him prove their effective short comings.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2011, 06:11:20 AM »
Experiencing is believing. Start Dorje Shugden Practice today and you will know He exists. Dorje Shugden is compassionate, swift and powerful and He will protect and care for us with evidence. A Protector of our time!

Dolce Vita

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2011, 04:00:43 PM »
Does one have to see gravity to believe there is gravity? What makes one believe the story about Newton sitting under the apple tree? If we can believe there is gravity when we cannot even see it, why is that we can't believe DS exist? Like Dondrup Shugden mentioned, start the practice today and experience it yourself. Whoever owns this website is so generous to share the practice with all of us, it is so convenient for us to start at home, make full use of the resources here and be benefited from it. Help to spread DS to more people for he is THE ONE to help us, to liberate us from sufferings.

ilikeshugden

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2011, 04:24:00 AM »
Dorje Shugden is real. There is no denying it. It is impossible for hundreds of high lamas to be wrong. If He does not exist, how can oracles take trance of Him. Faith is a key part of every religion. If one does not have faith in Dorje Shugden and even question His existence, I think it is similar to thinking that all the Buddhas are not real. Well, they are so Dorje Shugden is a BUDDHA too. So, if you think that Buddha Shakyamuni was a real person, then it also means that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was a real person too!

Keep on believing because he exists! All the Buddhas exists.

icy

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2011, 05:50:42 AM »
Well my lama had this to say about it, he had met the Dorje Shugden oracle in Gaden and this oracle was a lay person and not very studied or learned. But when he took trance he could teach and answer questions very quickly and this is in audience with the high lamas like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and etc. The oracle under trance can quote this passage or that passages very quickly and precisely.And the same phenomenon occurs with the other Dorje Shugden oracles.

Yes surely dorje Shugden really exist.  Even The H.H.D.L.'s life successfully relied on DS on such a dangerous escape to exile.  Surely no question or doubt about the existence of DS.

DharmaSpace

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2011, 04:45:28 PM »
Thanks to everyone's sharing I understand much better. The title of this topic is probably quite similar to does the Buddha exist. The fact there are the teachings left, there are qualified lamas and monks still around, the monastic  traditions founded by Buddha still exists, and people are still getting peace and realisations is a true indication that the Buddha definitely walked this earth before. Dorje Shugden will one day be recognized all over the world due to the hard work and perseverance of the lama's monks and practitioners who are a testament to the Dorje Shugden practise.

Ensapa

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2011, 02:58:59 AM »
For me, out of the many protectors that i have a connection which, Dorje Shugden has answered my prayers even though my samaya with my lama was compromised for a period of time due to the manifestation of my mental obstacles. By the time i am out of it and realized what i have done it was extremely difficult for me to repair anything at all as i lost the trust and respect of my Dharma brothers and sisters. He has assisted me a lot in helping me repair my samaya and reconnecting with my lama. No other Dharma protector so far is able to help me up to this point but Dorje Shugden. I did not even do his mantra initially, but i got his help anyway and it is really clear. I now do his mantra daily without fail.

This is how i know that he truly exists, because he delivers help. Even when i did not do his mantra or sadhana, and even when my samaya is in tatters, he helped me anyway. No other protector would be able to help me when i have compromised samaya but him. That cemented my belief that he exists to help, and that he is fully enlightened and can still assist beyond my negative karma.