Does Dorje Shugden really exist?

[Ensapa]

I still think that the best way to show that Dorje Shugden exists is the testimonials of the people who propitiate him and who has received his help or some kind of benefit. I know I have and that to me is very solid proof that he exists, on a very personal, undeniable level, despite many successive and heavy negative karmas that i have created in the past and them ripening in succession, he still helps and makes things easier. That to me, is unmistaken proof that he exists. I am sure it will be the same way for most ppl out there also

[daka]

I believe Dorje Shugden exists although I used to be quite skeptical about it.  Why I changed my mind? Because after doing His practice, I find my mind calm down a lot. I personally do not think this is due to psychological effect as when I started doing His practice I was still in doubt.

Anyway, I guess there is no direct way to proof the existence of a god or deity. People believe or have faith in god or buddha or deities just because they have experience the "miracles" themselves. And the experiences sometimes can be very subtle. It can be just a sense of security, that's all.

As for me, Dorje Shugden did help me a lot during my time of difficulty and He makes my life smoother than before. We normally gain our knowledge through study, experience and pattern recognition. In this case, I think it is through experience and pattern recognition. Hence, it's not easy to share with others unless they also engage in this practice.

[Ensapa]

I believe Dorje Shugden exists although I used to be quite skeptical about it.  Why I changed my mind? Because after doing His practice, I find my mind calm down a lot. I personally do not think this is due to psychological effect as when I started doing His practice I was still in doubt.

Anyway, I guess there is no direct way to proof the existence of a god or deity. People believe or have faith in god or buddha or deities just because they have experience the "miracles" themselves. And the experiences sometimes can be very subtle. It can be just a sense of security, that's all.

As for me, Dorje Shugden did help me a lot during my time of difficulty and He makes my life smoother than before. We normally gain our knowledge through study, experience and pattern recognition. In this case, I think it is through experience and pattern recognition. Hence, it's not easy to share with others unless they also engage in this practice.

however the catch here is how do we convince someone to actually engage in the practice in the first place? I guess the whole point is not to stress on whether or not he exists, but to extol the benefits and effects of his practice, but in a non religious way. We can tell people that we have experienced a lot of positiveness in our lives after we started the practice, compared to before, provided if they listen with an open mind without prejudice.

[yontenjamyang]

The fact the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden, shows that Dorje Shugden exist. How ironic! He proves it to us that He exist. For me, without this ban, I might find out He exist.
At our level, further proofs come from oracle taking trance and giving teachings and are not possible if done by the oracle when not in trance, the fact that many high Lamas practice Dorje Shugden and personal blessings from Dorje Shugden.
Not only He exist, he is also a Buddha. Why? Because we can see the work of many High Lama benefits many many people. Look at how many NKT centers are there in the world? Look at the Lamrim discourse by Pabongkha Rinpoche, works by Trijang Rinpoche etc. Many got into Dharma, the teaching of the Buddha because of these Lama. All practice, Dorje Shugden. The proofs are all over the internet.
Myself, the blessing I get are very quick but never for the wrong wishes. Only ones that is truly the best for me long term are manifested. How fortunate I am..we are!!

[pgdharma]

Just because we don’t have the merits to see Him doesn’t mean He does not exist. I can say that He does exist because I have benefited a lot from propitiating this great Dharma protector who is in fact a Buddha, an enlightened being. He has helped me one way or another by showing me the right path to take when I am at a cross road.
There are also testimonials of real life stories of those who have been helped by Dorje Shugden that showed He is here with us. Check out “Blessed by Dorje Shugden”:  http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5201

[kris]

I think this question is rather irrelevant. What if someone ask, "Does Lama Tsongkapa really exist?", or "Does Tara really exist?" or, "Does Nechung really exist?" Is there any way to proof it?

We can say that Lama Tsongkapa existed because Gaden monastery was create by Him, and He has left many evidence like teachings, and many more who practices the teachings.

However, how do one proof Dorje Shugden or Nechung really exists? I am not trying to be b*tchy here, but other than what has been told by enlightened masters, how can we proof them? If one question the validity of Dorje Shugden, then shouldn't the same logic be applied to all?

From the enlightened master who has attainment, I choose to believe what they say, I think that's the best proof for now...

[Ensapa]

I think this question is rather irrelevant. What if someone ask, "Does Lama Tsongkapa really exist?", or "Does Tara really exist?" or, "Does Nechung really exist?" Is there any way to proof it?

We can say that Lama Tsongkapa existed because Gaden monastery was create by Him, and He has left many evidence like teachings, and many more who practices the teachings.

However, how do one proof Dorje Shugden or Nechung really exists? I am not trying to be b*tchy here, but other than what has been told by enlightened masters, how can we proof them? If one question the validity of Dorje Shugden, then shouldn't the same logic be applied to all?

From the enlightened master who has attainment, I choose to believe what they say, I think that's the best proof for now...

There are several ways to prove that Dorje Shugden exists.

The first one being, of course, Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen's body is still being encased in a stupa and the hairs and nails are still growing even after almost 500 years after his death. If the reincarnation of someone who has attained a body that cannot rot can be bad, if the incarnation of someone that has done so much for Buddhism can be bad, then where is the basis of Buddhist practice? So, Dorje Shugden's previous incarnations can all be traced which does prove that he existed.

The second way of proof is via oracles. Dorje Shugden does take trance and he does have very strong presence. To people who are sensitive to the supernatural, when he arrives, his presence can be clearly sensed by these individuals. Also, when we make prayers to him, they do get granted, obstacles do get cleared and things do happen. Why is that? Because he does exist even if we lack the tools or ability to perceive his presence. We cannot see gravity, but we can all say that it exists because we can feel its effects and we can see its effects. We cannot see air or feel air, but we can prove its existence. The same argument and methods can be said for Dorje Shugden: for our level, we cannot perceive him directly, but we can perceive him by the things that he has done. If we can accept the existence of gravity by seeing its effects, then why cant we accept the existence of Dorje Shugden through the effects and through the help he provides? It's just a logical way to deduce, from our side. There are also many highly attained masters that can perceive him directly, if we have trust in their teachings, we should have trust in their abilities to perceive also. If Trijang Rinpoche says that Dorje Shugden exist, should we question more?

[Positive Change]

Well my lama had this to say about it, he had met the Dorje Shugden oracle in Gaden and this oracle was a lay person and not very studied or learned. But when he took trance he could teach and answer questions very quickly and this is in audience with the high lamas like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and etc. The oracle under trance can quote this passage or that passages very quickly and precisely.And the same phenomenon occurs with the other Dorje Shugden oracles.

I have also heard of instances whereby when a different oracle under trance can recount what was said by another oracle in trance halfway around the world. How else would this occur if it is not the very same being that channels through the oracle. And I was also told that each time a Droje Shugden oracle takes trance, the "mannerisms", speech and content are always consistent. If it was a sham, surely these oracles could not be so consistent not only with themselves but with the other oracles too!

There is something to be said about mysticism and another about real life accounts which cannot be denied!

I for one has had the great privilege to be in the presence of a Dorje Shugden oracle taking trance and getting a blessing from Our King Dorje Shugden himself through the oracle. It is truly awe inspiring and humbing experience!



Simla Oracle in full trance 1


 
Simla Oracle in full trance 2

[diablo1974]

Interesting subject heading in a DS.com site. Anyway, i didnt meet or see DS in trance or even meeting an Shugden oracle, i hope i am able to meet him in the future. i believe Dorje Shugden exists, there are too much information available to not believe his existence. If  anyone who do not believe he has existed or still exists in some form? he/she have to argue through the information available on this site and also his full sadhana. 

[Ensapa]

Another interesting conclusion or question to this thread: If you dont believe that Dorje Shugden exists, why even come to this forum and website in the first place? There is many proof that he does. The fact that such a huge website loaded with articles and information about him is proof, and the Lamas who relied on him all grew and came back is absolute proof of his existence. Last but not least, the oracles taking trance of Dorje Shugden is more proof that he exists.

[Gabby Potter]

This kind of depends on individual, people who choose to believe, they will find Lord Dorje Shugden really does exist; people who don't, they will never realise that. We are so blessed to have met this precious protector in our lives, I strongly believe that Lord Dorje Shugden is going to inspire and save a lot of lives.

[Dondrup Shugden]

Does Dorje Shugden really exist? This is question worth answering as a devotee who wants to share the benefits of this great enlightened being.

I have been praying to this Great Dharmapala for the last 20 years and his existence had been shown to me in many countless ways. 

Instances of fatal accidents with no one being hurt.  Wounds been healed in front of my eyes when I repeated the mantras and dab water with holy DS pills.  My personal quick recovery from illnesses and many more.

However in other instances, many people have met Dorje Shugden through the oracles and there were also times when the oracle would give Dharma teachings.  What a blessing to be there to be hearing the Dharma from DS.

Practice with great devotion and He will be there with you to walk the path to enlightenment.  A true friend indeed.

[kelly]

DS is real this is no doubt about it because in many occasion he personally has help me a lot in my daily life especially when I want to involve in Dharma activities h be there to help to clear the obstacles in time of danger I do not even need to recite his mantra there will always be help avilable is amazing, no matter what the most important is the practice of DS give us a clear mind so that we can continue to stay in the spiritual path, I am thankful to this powerful protector I hope in  all my future life I will continue to be care and protect by him.

[christine V]

Dorje Shugden definately exist. Many of his sign manifest for us to see. The oracle who can teach when take trance of Dorje Shugden, the wishes fulfilled, the guidance he gave and many others. He is there ready for us, the question is , are we ready to accept him.

[MoMo]

Does Dorje Shugden exist ? Does Buddha Shakyamuni really  exist after his Mahaparanivana ? Or we could ask do I really exist after my passing ? We just know from the Buddha that we continued to exist in samsara after death . Therefore, Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen will continued  to manifest in other forms best to benefit sentient beings . In this case , he appeared as the protector mighty Gyalchen  Dorje Shugden  taking up the role to protect Lama Tsongkhpa’s teachings . The irony now is the CTA was trying to force an arya being  into their side of camp! It was like the tea boy telling the master what is best for him or us .Therefore, this is a plain political move that only works for samsaric beings  like me!