Author Topic: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?  (Read 29031 times)

pinecone

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2015, 02:24:25 PM »
If Dorje Shugden does not exist why does the CTA have to think of all sort of reasons and accusations against DS in order to hinder  the practitioners to practise and thereafter lose faith in this powerful Dharma protector. Belief or not to belief the existence of Dorje Shugden are both equally futile, one has to realize the truth in himself with diligent self-effort. Yes, Dorje Shugden does exist as  acknowledged by many high lamas who have devoted and risked their lives in order to protect and spreading the lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa  and Dorje Shugden.

James Bond

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2015, 03:38:56 PM »
I think that judging from what you have said, it is pretty solid evidence that Dorje Shugden does indeed exist. If a lay person who doesn't know anything suddenly knows everything there is to know about the Dharma and can teach it with precision, surely there must be something special going on. There is no scientific explanation for such an event.

Also, throughout the years Dorje Shugden has provided many miracles to the people around me. There are incidents where people are in danger but because a piece of Dorje Shugden is close to them they remain safe. Its things like pendants and statues which people keep close to them which help keep them protected. I think that could also be good evidence that Dorje Shugden is indeed real and exists.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2015, 05:19:44 PM »
If Dorje Shugden does not exist why does the CTA have to think of all sort of reasons and accusations against DS in order to hinder  the practitioners to practise and thereafter lose faith in this powerful Dharma protector. Belief or not to belief the existence of Dorje Shugden are both equally futile, one has to realize the truth in himself with diligent self-effort. Yes, Dorje Shugden does exist as  acknowledged by many high lamas who have devoted and risked their lives in order to protect and spreading the lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa  and Dorje Shugden.


This is a good summarisation of the question. 

psylotripitaka

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2015, 05:26:20 PM »
This question is not irrelevant, but leads us deeply into Guru Yoga and realization of mahamudra. We are considering whether or not beings exist in subtle realms, whether or not liberation and enlightenment exist, and therefore whether or not Buddhas exist.

If Buddhas exist, it follows that liberation and enlightenment exist, it follows that beings exist in subtle realms, and because these phenomena are even being considered in this coarse realm, this indicates that people have experience and have shared about these subjects. There are many reasons we can use to establish the existence of these things, and by relying on this our faith, effort, and inner experience are empowered.

The very existence of the Dharma and its profound explanations clearly indicate that liberation and enlightenment exist because they are produced by causes, and these causes are enumerated in outrageous detail. In particular, the explanations in Highest Yoga Tantra explain very very precisely what the basis, path, and results are. When you read these, it is hard to think all this was just made up to deceive people in order to control them and extort money and servitude from them. Such descriptions are further supported by detailed explanations of the qualities of high bodhisattvas and Buddhas, and these are further supported by a plethora of remarkable anecdotes and the display of actions, miracle powers, and astonishingly precise clairvoyance.

People that disbelieve the existence of these things haven't experienced them in person, haven't read enough to make an informed and conclusive decision regarding their disbelief, are not really interested in spiritual matters, or are simply afraid of the implications. Sometimes, it even happens that people who previously had faith develop disbelief and proceed to try and come up with all sorts of reasons to disprove these things. Why? It is generally because realizing how challenging it is to complete the path, they want to feel ok abandoning the Dharma so they attack it in order to make themselves feel justified in following the path of least resistance: non-conscientiousness.
That's ok too, they're just not ready to follow the path to permanent liberation from suffering. Their time will come.

In waking life we can see that negative minds can reduce and positive minds increase. From this we can infer that by abandoning the causes of the former and refining the latter, we can develop powerful realizations that are clearly evident in anecdotes of Masters. Even in worldly activities, through familiarity we make less mistakes and perfect our 'outer' craft, so why should it be otherwise with the internal 'craft' of training the mind?

Furthermore, lucid dreaming and out of body (astral) experience are readily accessible to people either naturally or with a little effort. Those who do have experience and who apply techniques are able to refine their abilities in these subtle spaces. Lucid dreaming techniques, dream yogas, astral double training, the 9 mixings of completion stage of Highest Yoga Tantra (see  book Clear Light of Bliss) - all these things show us that we ourselves have the qualities within us that through refinement can be brought to perfection. If subtle astral bodies and dream bodies exist, it follows that beings with subtle bodies such as spirits exist, and since there are elaborate Dharma methods for refining and perfecting these bodies and elaborate descriptions of the qualities of beings who have realized these things as well anecdotes of such beings showing clairvoyance, including Protector Oracles, it follows that Buddhas exist.

If we don't know if these things are real and yet having read or heard stories of people today who have this experience we still doubt, we are not being reasonable and should provide solid proof establishing the non-existence of all these things. Simply put, what it boils down to is that those with faith and effort experience the benefits, while lazy people who prefer to be skeptical and hold their ridiculous doubts firmly without even having valid reasons for doing so will not experience the benefits. Who in their right mind would not at least wish to be a person completely free from suffering, who experiences complete fulfillment, and helps everybody.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2015, 06:03:44 PM »
I would add to the sentence where toward the bottom of my last post where it says:

"...including Protector Oracles, it follows that Buddhas exist", and since there is extensive evidence of who Dorje Shugden is, it follows that he exists and that he is Wisdom Buddha Manjushri. After extensive research of the opposing views, I've found no valid evidence to establish Dorje Shugden is not a Buddha.

VeronicaSmith

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2015, 06:43:47 PM »
When an oracle takes trance, they let their body become a vessel for the Protector to come and teach or give a message/teaching. I believe in Dorje Shugden and he really exists. He was a real person before but people doubt he became a Protector. The fact that he can turn a less studied oracle (like it said in the post) into a sharp and smart oracle in trance, shows something else is there. Also how he can quote and explain everything in his teachings is because it is his teachings. He knows them. I believe for sure.

If you are talking about believe in general about Buddhas and Protectors that are beyond us, then that is a choice of what you believe. You may only believe the facts that say he was a person that was murdered. Or you can choose to believe in it or not. That is your choice on belief. But if you choose to investigate and keep an open mind. You will find he does exist.

grandmapele

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2015, 04:05:25 AM »
I'd like to quote the bible, John 20:29 just for the principle: Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
(Yes i was a good little Church-going Christian girl!) - WisdomBeing

Thanks for that quote, WisdomBeing. I must admit there were dark days when I question myself on my belief. That is really dark as I had funny things like my mala breaking when I ask questions of Dorje Shugden. Coincidence? I don't know. What do you think?

Jason Statham

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2015, 03:59:55 PM »
@DharmaSpace, Of course Dorje Shugden exists. Although the oracle might not be profound in his studies or learning, when he/she takes trance of Dorje Shugden, he/she will obviously become a different person. Because the oracle takes trance of an enlightened being, that is why they are able to quote passages quickly and precisely without any problems as they are able to see the past, present and future. Besides, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche is there, so there is no way that the oracle is fake or Dorje Shugden is not there. There are many stories of Dorje Shugden and His past lives before becoming a Dharma protector. I think you will be able to learn many more things from there. Thank you for sharing your experience and opinion.

gbds3jewels

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2015, 03:35:37 AM »
For me, let's not talk about if Dorje Shugden really exist. Does any Gods or Buddhas or deities really exist?

I've always wondered what happened to the Greek Gods. They were depicted in such clarity in Greek mythology, statues were erected, temples were built but where are they now? Did someone made up all the stories about them once upon a time?

The paranormal, the existence of other beings living in a different reality to ours, are all these real? Why are there people who can account so clearly other existence or realms that some of us cannot see? Do we need to see to believe.

Most of us believed mankind has landed on the moon. Are you sure it's not a hoax? We believe what we is reported on the news, what we read in the newspaper, what we find on the internet. Do we question the credibility of these information. Or perhaps we don't because it doesn't really matter if these are true or not because it has no direct and immediate impact on our lives.

I think there are two types of truth. One exist regardless if you believe it or not. It's pervasive. Another type is base on our perception. It's impermanent. This truth or reality changes as our mind evolves.

DharmaSpace

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2015, 02:16:16 PM »
Interestingly actually another example of people showing abilities that they did not acquire in this life was there are documented cases of people who could speak in foreign languages when in hynopsis. And this obviously pointed to the fact that people had a previous life before the current one. Just wanted to share another example of instances whereby the people could exhibit abilities they could not have when they are in a waking state. 

Dorje Shugden is indeed a unique dharma protector who gives dharma talk and gives dharma discourses for all to hear and be blessed by the dharma. 


James Bond

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2015, 10:55:22 AM »
I strongly believe that Dorje Shugden does indeed exist, without a doubt. From personal experience I am confident that he exists. If you do not believe still, there are actually comics made which are out up on www.tsemrinpoche.com. These stories are based of real life people and real life incidents showing the power of Dorje Shugden. I know some of these people personally and therefore i know for sure that the stories are true. Really worth a read if you do not believe that Dorje Shugden exists.