Author Topic: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?  (Read 29033 times)

diamond girl

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2011, 04:59:21 AM »
Experiencing is believing. Start Dorje Shugden Practice today and you will know He exists. Dorje Shugden is compassionate, swift and powerful and He will protect and care for us with evidence. A Protector of our time!

Exactly the point. How many things in life we just believe because people say so like in propaganda and advertisements. Put a credible face like a blockbuster movie star in an advert, like skincare, and wah lah it is all "true". Then some of us go get it and break out with lines and rashes! But people still believe it works, where is the sense? But when we use the product and it works, it becomes our bible beauty regime. Now, taking this deeper...

Dorje Shugden if does not exist, then please explain the controversy? Is the HHDL delusional to start a Ban for something which does not exist? Does he need this kind of publicity stunt when he is already a popular "spiritual celebrity"? Also, can this website have so much rich information if there was no truth and substance behind the subject matter of Dorje Shugden? And if we address the issue of credibility...look at the lineage masters who have practiced? This should give everyone the confidence and certainty that Dorje Shugden exists.

Personally for me, I may not have "met" him but I have witnessed enough miracles and help the Great King has extended to myself and other practitioners to KNOW and BELIEVE. Dorje Shugden exists for sure. If in doubt, take up the practice and see for yourself.... He is the Protector of Our Time in truly more ways than one!

kurava

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2011, 12:47:54 PM »
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1430.0

I had the good fortune to hear the above first hand from the people that practised DS and saved by DS. When this was recounted to a group of us, these practitioners were so grateful to DS that the mere recollection of that incidence moved them to tears.

There is no doubt whatsoever that DS exists and anyone that does his practice purely and sincerely will definitely receive his help.




Ensapa

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2011, 02:48:43 AM »
Dorje Shugden really exists because he does help and he does make himself known when needed be. That is my experience and that is how i was convinced that he exists. It is not something that comes from belief alone, he does make his presence felt through oracles and direct assistance that he provides to the sincere. That would be more than enough to make anyone believe that he exists once they experience it.

nagaseeker

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2011, 10:20:19 AM »
I do not have any experience to convince myself to believe that Dorje Shugden exists but i still pray to him , offer incense to him daily . i once heard this from my guru about how Lama Tsongkhapa can help us . We do not hv the merits to see Lama Tsongkhapa but just having an image of Lama tsongkhapa will bless u,ur family and ur house . talk to lama tsongkhapa (statue,tsa tsa,picture) everyday and treat him as ur bff , let him know when u r unhappy , tell him what happen today , pray to him , do gaden lha gyema daily, recite mitsema everyday. By doing all these ,until now i yet heard any words coming out from lama tsongkhapa's statue but i strongly believe that lama tsongkhapa do exists because i experienced calm,happiness ,less n less hatred .... :)
that is why although i;m not sure whether dorje shugden exists or not, i'm still pray to him . Because i need his protection,his help so that my life will be free from obstacle and i can learn dharma easily .
Now i hav 2 Best friends , Lama tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden. One stay in my heart n the other follows me like my shadow ~
theres millions of question like this out there , but why bother to check n ask one by one ? we should learn to walk  before we learn to fly ,  ;D

shugdenprotect

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2011, 04:35:45 PM »
Questioning is encouraged as it develops deep understanding which paves way to realization and spiritual growth. However, if we question to cause confusion and distraction from the truth, we are harming others and ourselves.

Dorje Shugden is recognized within the Dharma and by highly attained Dharma masters. The Dharma has passed the test of time (2500 years) as it produced results. Thus, it can be said that the Dharma is real. If the Dharma is real and it acknowledges Dorje Shugden, then it is quite logical to conclude that Dorje Shugden is real.

Highly attained Dharma masters are real and have touched and benefited many in tangible (as well as intangible) manners. If these masters are real and they subscribe to the existence of Dorje Shugden, then we, at a lower level of spiritual accomplishment, should follow their foot steps and learn more about our Lord Protector so that we develop sincere understanding that will inevitably reveal the “real-ness” of Buddha Dorje Shugden.

Ensapa

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2011, 04:38:37 AM »
Questioning is encouraged as it develops deep understanding which paves way to realization and spiritual growth. However, if we question to cause confusion and distraction from the truth, we are harming others and ourselves.

Dorje Shugden is recognized within the Dharma and by highly attained Dharma masters. The Dharma has passed the test of time (2500 years) as it produced results. Thus, it can be said that the Dharma is real. If the Dharma is real and it acknowledges Dorje Shugden, then it is quite logical to conclude that Dorje Shugden is real.

Highly attained Dharma masters are real and have touched and benefited many in tangible (as well as intangible) manners. If these masters are real and they subscribe to the existence of Dorje Shugden, then we, at a lower level of spiritual accomplishment, should follow their foot steps and learn more about our Lord Protector so that we develop sincere understanding that will inevitably reveal the “real-ness” of Buddha Dorje Shugden.

Personally, since Dorje Shugden provides assistance swiftly to the sincere and it can be instantly felt by people who petition him, I am pretty sure that people will definitely feel his presence, and know for sure that he is real and he does exist, and not only that, he is "near" to us compared to the other Dharma protectors who require a substantial amount of merits and require the petitioner to hold vows before they can assist. Dorje Shugden will work better with those, but he definitely can still assist a person with heavy karma.

icy

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2012, 02:54:19 AM »
This question of whether Dorje Shugden really exist should not even cropped up.  People who relied on him has given many testimonies of Dorje Shugden swift and powerful protection.  If you have not tasted apple you will not know its taste.  Likewise you need to practise Dorje Shugden in order to find out if He really exist.

triesa

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2012, 05:47:12 AM »
This question of whether Dorje Shugden really exist should not even cropped up.  People who relied on him has given many testimonies of Dorje Shugden swift and powerful protection.  If you have not tasted apple you will not know its taste.  Likewise you need to practise Dorje Shugden in order to find out if He really exist.

I think it is ok to raise this question, after all, no question is stupid becasue all questions serve to provide more truth and facts.

And I agree with you Icy, that testimonials from practitioners are the best proof that Dorje Shugden does exit.

We may not have the great merits to see him, to hear him or to receive signs from him, but there are many ways that Dorje shugden helps us.

For me, my mind is stronger and calmer, and I find that I can recover from unpleasant situations much faster. For me, I do believe that the wisdom bestowed on me have helped me all the way, and will do so in the future.

For some, Dorje Shugden may help them overcomer certain obstacles in their life in a very swift manner....whatever it may appear to be, eventually with the blessings from DorjeShugden, we may embark in mind transformation which is the esscence of his teachings.

I dare not say I have transformed a lot, but I certainly feel in many little ways, I have.

So for those who have not felt the presence of Dorje Shugden, start connection with this holy being today as he is INDEED an uncommon of this age.

And as the new year begins, I hope many more will feel the "presence" of this great king!

Ensapa

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2012, 08:33:00 AM »
This question of whether Dorje Shugden really exist should not even cropped up.  People who relied on him has given many testimonies of Dorje Shugden swift and powerful protection.  If you have not tasted apple you will not know its taste.  Likewise you need to practise Dorje Shugden in order to find out if He really exist.

I think it is ok to raise this question, after all, no question is stupid becasue all questions serve to provide more truth and facts.

And I agree with you Icy, that testimonials from practitioners are the best proof that Dorje Shugden does exit.

We may not have the great merits to see him, to hear him or to receive signs from him, but there are many ways that Dorje shugden helps us.

For me, my mind is stronger and calmer, and I find that I can recover from unpleasant situations much faster. For me, I do believe that the wisdom bestowed on me have helped me all the way, and will do so in the future.

For some, Dorje Shugden may help them overcomer certain obstacles in their life in a very swift manner....whatever it may appear to be, eventually with the blessings from DorjeShugden, we may embark in mind transformation which is the esscence of his teachings.

I dare not say I have transformed a lot, but I certainly feel in many little ways, I have.

So for those who have not felt the presence of Dorje Shugden, start connection with this holy being today as he is INDEED an uncommon of this age.

And as the new year begins, I hope many more will feel the "presence" of this great king!

Personally I feel that my mind is calmer and stronger as well ever since I have made a connection with Dorje Shugden. Personally I do need his help in more ways than one. I feel so lucky to be connected to him in this life. My Lama said I have a connection with him and I was reluctant initially but now i do feel that I have a connection with him. Perhaps there's enough purification after i went through a lot of suffering over the years and i finally found out that he is my dharma protector and that my Lama was right all along.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2012, 04:00:39 PM »
For me, how i know Dorje Shugden exists is that i feel he does answer my prayers and I do feel protected. Of course, i could be delusional but i know that all the great teachers like HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Pabongka Rinpoche, HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HH Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyel etc are not! So if they all propitiate Dorje Shugden, I would like to tap into the same kind of powerful protection too!

I also liked what Diamond Girl said re if Dorje Shugden was not real, the Dalai Lama would not need to ban him!
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Big Uncle

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2012, 05:29:39 PM »
I also liked what Diamond Girl said re if Dorje Shugden was not real, the Dalai Lama would not need to ban him!

Well, he may have been real and the Nyingma Lamas would liked to believe that their efficacious fire pujas have killed him off. Why continue to suppress the practice of Dorje Shugden with a ban when the fire pujas would have killed him? If he cannot be killed, he must be equal or more powerful than the wrathful Tantric deities of the Nyingma pantheon. How can an evil spirit be an equal of a Buddha? It seems to me that this evil spirit must not be an evil spirit after all. He must be of similar power or awakening then.

Lawrence L

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2012, 06:42:09 PM »
If Dorje Shugden exists, his practice exists.  If his practice exists, his practitioners exist.  If his practitioners exist, then high lamas exist.  If High Lama exist, dharma exist.  In other words, Dorje Shugden is truly so kind to be manifesting in this way to benefit many.  Do we still guess?

Ya, indeed! High lamas who practice Dorje Shugden exist, and the Dharma exist and flourish. See how Pabongka Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche's and all the high lamas who practice Dorje Shugden's teaching touch and reach to people's heart. See how thankful the high lamas are to Dorje Shugden. Even the Dalai Lama wrote prayer for Dorje Shugden. The Buddha himself wrote prayers to Dorje Shugden!

What could we say more about that?

beggar

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2012, 07:17:40 PM »
I think that to ask this question, we would then necessarily have to also ask the question if Manjushri exists? If Tsongkhapa exists? (since Dorje Shugden is an emanation of Manjushri)

Now, Tsongkhapa is an emanation of Manjushri, Chenrezig and Vajrapani. So if we're questioning this, then we also need to question if Chenrezig exists? If Vajrapani exists? And then, if all yidams exist?

Second important question to ask ourselves is what we mean by "exist"? It is important to understand what existence means, in this case. Does he exist according to what WE define as existence? I.e. is there really a red man on a snow lion sitting on a lotus cloud? Or are we talking about the existence of the state of mind / a energy that he represents? In Buddhist teachings, the Buddhas and enlightened mind "exists" in three forms:
- Dharmakaya, which is the ultimate form that these Buddhas exist/abide in which is formless, colourless, odorless etc.

- Sambhokagaya, which is the form that they manifest to us in through visions to Lamas etc. such as as Dorje Shugden, Vajrayogini, Heruka etc.

- Nirmanakaya, which is the form they physically and literally manifest in, such as in Tulkus (Pabongka Rinpoche as Heruka, Gangchen Rinpoche as the Medicine Buddha etc).

That may be a little heavy going on the terminology, sorry!

As to whether we can ascertain their existence with our own direct perception, sight, vision etc we are not yet at the level that we can directly perceive these Buddhas and be sure that they are not just some crazy hallucination! But as explained by Dharma Space and his Lama in the first post on this thread, we can definitely ascertain their existence by inference / inferential logic, such as through seeing and meeting the oracles who take trance of these beings like Dorje Shugden; also by an element of faith that we have in our teachers who can perceive them directly through their clairvoyance and high levels of attainments.

vajrastorm

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2012, 07:14:02 AM »
My belief that Dorje Shugden exists is derived from 'tangible' personal experiences of the many occasions when Dorje Shugden has come to my help to avert a crisis or a disaster, as well as the innumerable testimonies of how Dorje Shugden has helped others in their hour of need.

Another way of proving that Dorje Shugden does exist is by inferential logic and observation. Having seen how past and present great masters of the Gelug lineage, who have worked tirelessly to spread the Dharma of Je Tsongkapa far and wide to benefit beings everywhere, rely on Dorje Shugden  to help them in their Dharma work, there is no doubt then that DS does exist as a great Enlightened Protector who arose to fulfill a promise to protect and spread the Dharma of Je Tsongkapa.

Last, but not least, Dorje Shugden does exist as unmistakably as does the Praise that HH the Dalai Lama wrote of Him - The Melody of the Unceasing Vajra.


Poonlarp

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Re: Does Dorje Shugden really exist?
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2012, 10:11:39 AM »
Our human senses are limited and there are a lot of things around us we could not see nor feel, this is our nature and karma.

Enlighten beings do exist in the form we could not see. We only can see and feel it when they kindly take the human form, which is to take trance on an oracles.

Like Buddha, Dorje Shugden truly exists, and there are a lot of proves that they can remember the same thing on same person even they take trance on different oracles. And if it's not, I don't think there are high lamas and practitioners spend their lifes practicing Dorje Shugden practice, it must be very beneficial and effective.