Author Topic: A different view - wrath and compassion  (Read 15349 times)

honeydakini

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2010, 07:11:13 AM »
Hmm, it's interesting that I am currently reading about wrathful yidams and vajra anger:

Wrathful yidams are always associated with what is known in tantric terms as “vajra anger.” Vajra anger is without hatred, a dynamic energy which, no matter which of the five wisdoms it belongs to, is invincible. It is completely indestructible, imperturbable, because it was not created but discovered as an original quality.

Wrathful and warlike, it devastates the tendency towards idiot compassion and cuts through the hesitations that come from disbelieving in one’s Buddha-nature. Doubt is destroyed and confusion is chopped into pieces. Thus the wrathful yidams are portrayed treading on the corpse of ego, wearing ornaments of human bones and skulls, drinking blood, holding lethal weapons of all kinds.


Cool, thanks for sharing this. This wrath-compassion thing is very fascinating to me. I think a lot of people are a little shocked when they first see some of the more wrathful deities, or even when they hear that some lamas employ fierce methods such as scolding their students. There is this misconception that to be compassionate and loving means that you should only be soft and gentle.

Actually, sometimes the soft and gentle method is not at all compassionate - being soft and quiet could also be a manifestation of your big fat selfishness, that you don't want to look bad in the eyes of others or get on anyone's wrong so so you stay Mr Nice Guy all the time. It doesn't actually serve anyone this way. In fact, your Mr Nice Guy ways could just be encouraging someone else to continue his bad behaviour and collection of negative karma - and you allow it to happen!

I love that no matter how frightening some of these wrathful deities look (wielding all manner of scary implements, multiple heads, fangs, fire), they stand upon a lotus throne which means that everything they do, whether it is to give you a hug, hand you a lotus flower or take a swing at you with their machete, it comes from the most benevolent and spontaneous place of compassion.


DharmaDefender

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 988
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2010, 05:32:55 PM »
the Gurus are all very kind to find all the different methods to teach us and bring Dharma to us. They spoonfeed us!

Sometimes some "purists" think that Dharma should be practiced only this way or that way, or shouldn't be done this way or that way. For example, I saw some discussions on the "DS Brochure" thread that some people do not agree with this method. I think it is always important to remember this: "different strokes for different folks". And there sure are a lot of people out there who only want a quick fix, or are only attracted by some sort of worldly promise (fame or fortune or a relationship or some magic tarot-card-reading happiness)

Even if we don't agree with it, actually, we gotta realise we're not really so different. We have our own hang-ups and weird expectations that our lamas also have to adjust around and deal with too. This is a day and age when students bargain with their Gurus for their practice or just don't do the practice at all; or want it tailored to suit their schedules - wow the list of demands from us unworthy students is endless.

That's exactly what I find so disconcerting, the lack of compassion on our part for our guru (yidams and our Protector too!). Of course our guru is compassionate and enlightened, and has the ability to use skilful means to teach us the Dharma...but how compassionate and Dharmic is it of us to let our guru to adjust himself/herself to us? There's one of him and so many of us. For me, it brings to mind the parable of leather shoes and rocks covering the earth.

Ah those purists :) you gotta love them - their insistence that dharma should be practised this or that way is a hang-up unto its own. Funny how Buddha never insisted anything like that, and instead gave us 84,000 different methods!

Cool, thanks for sharing this. This wrath-compassion thing is very fascinating to me. I think a lot of people are a little shocked when they first see some of the more wrathful deities, or even when they hear that some lamas employ fierce methods such as scolding their students. There is this misconception that to be compassionate and loving means that you should only be soft and gentle.

I blame New Age, OM-chanting yoga purists for that. Oh wait, I'm Buddhist, I'm not supposed to blame...erm...yes ;)

Quote
Actually, sometimes the soft and gentle method is not at all compassionate - being soft and quiet could also be a manifestation of your big fat selfishness, that you don't want to look bad in the eyes of others or get on anyone's wrong so so you stay Mr Nice Guy all the time. It doesn't actually serve anyone this way. In fact, your Mr Nice Guy ways could just be encouraging someone else to continue his bad behaviour and collection of negative karma - and you allow it to happen!.

The ego manifests in strange ways. You talk, that's you being ostentatious. You don't talk, that's you not wanting to look bad. How to win? Check your motivation.

Personally, I think it's rather unkind of a student to let a lama use vajra anger on you. Imagine the strain on the lama. Isn't it just kinder for us to practise well, so it never has to reach that stage? Having said that, some lamas (e.g. Zong Rinpoche) are particularly known for their quick wrath so if you have the merit to be their student, there's no escaping! Purification time!

beggar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2010, 08:01:13 PM »

Personally, I think it's rather unkind of a student to let a lama use vajra anger on you. Imagine the strain on the lama. Isn't it just kinder for us to practise well, so it never has to reach that stage? Having said that, some lamas (e.g. Zong Rinpoche) are particularly known for their quick wrath so if you have the merit to be their student, there's no escaping! Purification time!

Now, there's something we don't think about - the strain on the lama. It doesn't just have to be a manifestation of vajra anger that puts a strain on him. if we don't do what he has taught us, imagine the hours and days and years of worry we put him through (even if he is peaceful and sitting calmly).

Another thing about receiving scoldings from lamas - like you said, it is an incredible blessing, a swift method for purification. We should think, "how lucky I am to be able to purify in a controlled environment". The lama puts everything at risk, his own health and his reputation, to purify our karma. He doesn't need to. He wants to because he cares so much for us.

I have heard that the only thing far worse than a wrathful scolding is when the Lama does not say anything at all to you anymore - this would mean that no method works anymore and you are beyond "redemption". I suppose it is like giving Dharma teachings to a snake and scolding it when it refuses to stop killing. So while we are being scolding or slapped by Yamantaka's many wrathful implements, use the experience to think of how you could do things differently and change. If not, you're just creating the causes to be like that impenetrable, unchangeable snake.

Helena

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 653
    • Email
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2010, 01:50:35 AM »
Dear Dharma Defender and Beggar,

You both said it so right!

We never think about how we have created the cause for our Lama to use vajra anger on us because we keep grasping on our self-piteous mode. We do not stop to think how much damage we have done for the Lama to reach that 'wrathful' point.

If peaceful methods no longer work on us, then what other choice the Lama has? After all, the Lama has made a commitment to take us under his wing and we have taken refuge under our Lama. Hence, the Lama cares for us like a parent for a child. And like a parent who has to discipline a very misbehaved child, 'wrathful method' is needed.

Clearly, the Lama does what he needs to do because it will help us. Above all, to purify our karma. The Lama does not need to do this, but we certainly need the Lama's skillful means and ways - however wrathful or peaceful it may be.

In actual fact, it is the Lama who is constantly adjusting to us and not us adjusting ourselves to the Lama.
Helena

triesa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2010, 02:08:42 PM »
It seems dharma and gurus have to convince their students now, instead students trying to prove they are worthy. Yet another sign of degeneracy...?

Yes, this is quite a sad situation - but I think a small part of all of us is like this. It would be very rare that most Dharma practitioners these days want to enter lifelong meditation and gain enlightenment in one swift lifetime. Just look at all the "nice" distractions to take us far far away from ourselves.

If you look at what the Gurus have to do now, it definitely looks like what you have said there my dear defender: "It seems dharma and gurus have to convince their students now"

the Gurus are all very kind to find all the different methods to teach us and bring Dharma to us. They spoonfeed us!

Sometimes some "purists" think that Dharma should be practiced only this way or that way, or shouldn't be done this way or that way. For example, I saw some discussions on the "DS Brochure" thread that some people do not agree with this method. I think it is always important to remember this: "different strokes for different folks". And there sure are a lot of people out there who only want a quick fix, or are only attracted by some sort of worldly promise (fame or fortune or a relationship or some magic tarot-card-reading happiness)

Even if we don't agree with it, actually, we gotta realise we're not really so different. We have our own hang-ups and weird expectations that our lamas also have to adjust around and deal with too. This is a day and age when students bargain with their Gurus for their practice or just don't do the practice at all; or want it tailored to suit their schedules - wow the list of demands from us unworthy students is endless.

And the amazing thing is that the Gurus DO accommodate, probably a lot more than we even realise! So how are we really paying back their kindness? Or do we just allow the teachings to degenerate more to becoming just a carrot the gurus dangle in front of us for some quick cheap fix we're looking for?

It is so difficult to be a Dharma teacher at this age, that's why our Dharma teacher is even kinder than a buddha, as the teacher apprears in a human form to pass on the Dharma to us, help us to purify our delusions and negative karma by encouraging us to collect vast amount of merits through various means. And most of the times, we, as students, continuously fight with our teachers and be selective on insturctions. It is truely a degenerate age.

Out of compassion, many times our teachers have to use wrathful methods to subdue the mind of the students.So when wrathful method are being used in this manner, it is totally based on compassion. It is very common that "Vajra Wrath" is being used by many tantric masters to expedite the purification process of negative karma of the students.

Triesa

shugdenprotect

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
    • Email
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2010, 04:30:56 PM »
Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Protector. During this degenerate age, it is logical that we require an enlightened being who has already passed through the trials of samsara to protect us from our “sophisticated” obstacles. Unenlightened Protectors like Nechung are on their own journey towards gaining attainments and enlightenment.

I agree with you DharmaDefender about how easy it is these days to receive Dharma teaching. In fact it has become so available that we take Dharma teachings and initiations for granted. Some student daydream during Dharma talks etc. My Guru told me that, during his time, he would absorb every single “crumb” of Dharma that comes in his direction. Similarly, people used to have to travel for days, weeks and even months just to receive Dharma teachings. Today, there are individuals who would skip a class because of bad traffic. I hope that the sharing in this thread will create awareness in us to have deeper gratitude towards our Guru and His generosity with the Dharma.

Helena, I agree with you. In fact, I read that in today’s time, we encounter more inner obstacles than outer obstacles. In some ways inner obstacles are more difficult to overcome as they are subtler and comes from lifetimes of habituation.

Agree with DSFriend that karma is caused by our own actions and external factors only trigger the opening of a negative karma. As external factors can trigger negative karma, it can also trigger POSITIVE karma! So, if we sincerely engage in virtuous acts such a contributing to the sangha community, supporting the spread of pure Dharma etc., we develop the merit for our positive karma to open, as “good” things happen to us, we get a better chance to act virtuously…resulting on more merits. Is it not wonderful how karma works? Our fate in completely in our hands and we get to be responsible for our lives and what becomes of it!

It is shameful that, as adults, we could behave in ways that cause our Guru to resort to vajra anger. This is especially so when our Guru is one of the (if not THE) kindest person to us. I have seen my Guru practice forgiveness and acceptance towards a person who would not even receive such kindness from his/her own parents. In the commentaries of so many highly attained and enlightened Dharma masters, the foundation for Dharma practice and growth is clean Guru samaya. Historical Dharma figures like Pabongka Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche practiced this to its epitome. For example, it is said that Pabongka Rinpoche will get off his horse the moment His Guru’s ladrang comes into view and prostrate all the way to the door step!

Sometimes, we may not know the Dharma like the back of our hands. However, each and everyone one of us have the ability to practice Guru devotion. Therefore, it is unnecessary to fret over the limited Dharma knowledge we may possess today but it is shameful and worrisome if we cannot keep clean Guru samaya. In conclusion on this matter, focus on treating our kind Guru with well deserved devotion, before pursuing mastery in higher practices.

hope rainbow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 947
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2010, 04:33:33 PM »
The posts on this topic are very interesting.
Wrath -an outward display of 'anger' arizen from compassion from care and concern, so NOT anger, because not arisen from delusion and self-cherishing, thus WRATH!
I think I have seen some of that in my mother when I was a child (I've probably seen a lot of that).
But the best example of wrath I have seen is the wrath that I have seen my teacher display.

DharmaDefender

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 988
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2010, 11:21:19 PM »
I agree with you DharmaDefender about how easy it is these days to receive Dharma teaching. In fact it has become so available that we take Dharma teachings and initiations for granted. Some student daydream during Dharma talks etc. My Guru told me that, during his time, he would absorb every single “crumb” of Dharma that comes in his direction. Similarly, people used to have to travel for days, weeks and even months just to receive Dharma teachings. Today, there are individuals who would skip a class because of bad traffic. I hope that the sharing in this thread will create awareness in us to have deeper gratitude towards our Guru and His generosity with the Dharma.


It wasn't all that long ago either - I have heard stories of monks and nuns carrying heavy loads up to Kopan Monastery, just so they could make beautiful offerings to Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa. Such a dedication is missing in today's convenience society.

May we all gain the attainments of Pabongka Rinpoche who, like you said, bore so much faith in his lama that "Whenever he visited his lama's monastery, Rinpoche would dismount as soon as it appeared in view and prostrate all the way to the door - which was not easy because of his build; when he left the monastery he would walk backwards until it was out of sight." (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/KyabjePabongkaRinpoche.pdf)

Quote
Agree with DSFriend that karma is caused by our own actions and external factors only trigger the opening of a negative karma. As external factors can trigger negative karma, it can also trigger POSITIVE karma! So, if we sincerely engage in virtuous acts such a contributing to the sangha community, supporting the spread of pure Dharma etc., we develop the merit for our positive karma to open, as “good” things happen to us, we get a better chance to act virtuously…resulting on more merits. Is it not wonderful how karma works? Our fate in completely in our hands and we get to be responsible for our lives and what becomes of it!


The beauty of impermanence eh? So many people who do not understand impermanence will think it's a horrible thing when really, it's not. So we cling and cling and when things slip away from us, as they inevitably will, we suffer. It's incredible how much suffering we cause to ourselves...when really, because of impermanence, if we take responsibility for our actions, we can bring so much benefit and happiness to others.

To be honest, if we realised karma and its workings, we would have no need for a protector. If we always acted in accordance with the law of karma, we would always automatically perform virtuous acts...there would be no need for a protector to protect us from committing non-virtuous actions!

Helena

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 653
    • Email
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2010, 09:56:49 AM »
The discussions in here have been most helpful and thought provoking.

Thank you all for sharing so much and so un-selfishly.

I think most of the time, we do not give all our best. Most of the time, we prefer taking the easier route, the lazy route or even the route that is most convenient. Hence, these all arise from our own selfishness - which we may or may not realise. Hence, we do not know what it means to really give our all.

I believe, when we really give our all and do everything from the heart, we are most likely to get it right from the start.

My Guru always said that the difference between us and him is that he truly and deeply cares more for others, and about others. Therefore, his deeds of compassion come naturally and almost effortlessly.

I can't say the same about us, and myself.

Selflessness does not come naturally and it is not effortless. In fact, sometimes, it seems like such hard work.

Then I realise, again, it is my perception because I have spent my entire life just serving myself. It has always been very self-serving. This is why I need a powerful and swift Dharma Protector to help me.

Some day I too hope that I can comprehend the depths and truth about Karma and I will have no need for any reminders to do what is right and beneficial - not only for myself, but for all concerned.

May we never let our Gurus down in any way, because in letting our Gurus down, we are essentially letting ourselves down.

Our Gurus have to resort to using wrathful methods sometimes because of their great compassion, not because the lack of it. IF no one would move us to a higher level, who would?

Now that is the sad truth.
 

Helena

Dondrup Shugden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2015, 08:02:31 AM »
To create wrath at the point of His Murder, TDG kept his promise to arise as a Protector.  It cannot be disagreed as to why such an attained being as TDG would permit and teach his murderers how to kill Him not be out of pure compassion.

The understanding of the iconography of Dorje Shugden is itself a great Dharma lesson to show evidence of what DS stand for.  An iconic Buddha to save us from our delusions, anger, attachments and to lead us to happiness even in this degenerating present lives.

Gabby Potter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2015, 10:03:46 PM »
This is why I will never believe anyone who says that Dorje Shugden is a spirit because HE IS NOT! It was out of compassion that He manifested the anger to become a Dharma protector and to protect the Buddha's doctrine. I have been doing His prayers for years now, I have no received any negative influences but only a more peaceful state of mind.

christine V

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
    • Email
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2015, 02:44:34 AM »
Very interesting discussion

On the rise of Dorje Shugden, I actually have some question on that, hopes can get answer here. Doesn't the killing act seem rather brutal, in showing that in Dharma, the monks even can killed because of jealously?  Why did Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen need to manifest this "drama".   Will it confuse people now that there are no mercy or compassion amongst the Buddhist that we can killed each other? Where does the harmony act that we Buddhist always talk on?   And if we believe in karma, doesn't Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen sees the karma of the monks and stopped them, if he does not, why did he let the bad karma of the monks happened and seem like worsening ?
'

MoMo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2015, 01:21:51 PM »
When being asked to choose between wrathful and peaceful form of any deity , most will choose the latter rather than the former or even have doubts about Buddhist deities or enlightened beings are capable of being wrathful . This choice of us actually reflects our prerequisite projections on the two . As being born in Southern Jambu and as a human , we have both of these positive and negative energy. Since we are pre-programed by external views on the negative aspect of this “seemingly bad energy” and associate it with unpleasantness . If we were to investigate and will find that they are neutral in actuality . Imagine that a person who  only have the peaceful mind- set  all the time, I think this person should be classified as emotionally impair! Just think of some situation where peaceful means could not get things done but only had to resort to wrathful means. We need both of these to be harmonious for our well being .