Author Topic: A different view - wrath and compassion  (Read 15348 times)

DharmaDefender

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A different view - wrath and compassion
« on: August 21, 2010, 12:00:17 PM »
I heard an interesting (and quite beautiful) proposition a few days ago, that Dorje Shugden didn't arise out of wrath. It pulled me back to the reason why he is a protector, and became a protector - even though wrath was the emotion being generated at the time of his death, he actually arose out of great compassion. The teaching wasn't elaborated so these are just my thoughts.

Even in his manner of dying, he showed so many signs of his attainments:

(1) Compassionately for the rest of us, he allowed his murderers to make two failed attempts first. Wouldn't you get increasingly annoyed or wrathful if people kept trying to kill you? And be pretty ticked off when they finally did? Imagine if they'd been successful on attempt #1 - for someone who'd got rid of anger in their mind-stream, perhaps he wouldn't have been able to generate 'sufficient' wrath if he'd been killed on the first attempt.

(2) His wrath didn't arise from anger that they'd managed to kill him, but from his compassion for the kind of karma his murderers would face, which is reflective of his current behaviour/role as a protector.

(3) Of course, as someone who had got rid of anger in their mind-stream, he has total control over his body, speech and mind - that is, he CAN generate wrath if he wants. Why allow himself to die such a controversial death? Well, isn't the controversial death still being discussed to this day, and helping to spread the Dorje Shugden name? Again, compassion.

(4) Then there's also that he gave his life up for the Dharma. The wellbeing of sentient beings was more important than his mortality. Keeping his promise to Nechung was more important than his mortality. Compassion again.

(5) In death, as violent as it was, he was in total control - he GAVE his murderers the means to kill him.

I open the floor :)

Zach

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2010, 01:00:42 PM »
I always think when wrathful deaths like this happen...Would a fully enlightened being let sentient beings generate such horrendous karma from harming them ? Of course not out of compassion he manifests the means for his own demise  :)

Helena

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2010, 01:18:52 PM »
Sorry, Zach - may be I am really dense from all the sleepless nights I have been getting lately - but I don't understand what your meaning is.


I
(1) Compassionately for the rest of us, he allowed his murderers to make two failed attempts first. Wouldn't you get increasingly annoyed or wrathful if people kept trying to kill you? And be pretty ticked off when they finally did? Imagine if they'd been successful on attempt #1 - for someone who'd got rid of anger in their mind-stream, perhaps he wouldn't have been able to generate 'sufficient' wrath if he'd been killed on the first attempt.

(2) His wrath didn't arise from anger that they'd managed to kill him, but from his compassion for the kind of karma his murderers would face, which is reflective of his current behaviour/role as a protector.

(3) Of course, as someone who had got rid of anger in their mind-stream, he has total control over his body, speech and mind - that is, he CAN generate wrath if he wants. Why allow himself to die such a controversial death? Well, isn't the controversial death still being discussed to this day, and helping to spread the Dorje Shugden name? Again, compassion.

(4) Then there's also that he gave his life up for the Dharma. The wellbeing of sentient beings was more important than his mortality. Keeping his promise to Nechung was more important than his mortality. Compassion again.

(5) In death, as violent as it was, he was in total control - he GAVE his murderers the means to kill him.

I open the floor :)

I thank you Dharma Defender for presenting this perspective clearly.

I did not really see it that way although I have read it many times that TDG informed his murderers how to kill him.

In this respect, it just re-affirms the great compassion TDG holds at all times and how attained he was. He can control his death, rebirth, etc.

We can't even control our irritation, let alone, anger.

Thank you for sharing this. I truly appreciate this.
Helena

shugdenprotect

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2010, 04:27:50 PM »
I completely agree that Dorje Shugden is constantly compassionate with sentient beings from the moment of His manifestation (accepting his death for the birth of a Dharma Protector who will benefit many sentient beings) to the current controversies where our Great King is exposed to accusations of being an evil spirit etc.

To imagine the non-stop “suffering” our kind Protector goes through just for us to progress in our Dharma practice, if that is not compassion, what is?!

DharmaDefender, thank you for listing so clearly the compassion our Protector displayed for our benefit. There is nothing we can do to repay such kindness. I imagine the closest we can do so is to practice sincerely so that more people will be blessed by Dorje Shugden and pure Dharma will flourish in all ten directions.

Zach

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 10:41:27 AM »
Sorry, Zach - may be I am really dense from all the sleepless nights I have been getting lately - but I don't understand what your meaning is.


I
(1) Compassionately for the rest of us, he allowed his murderers to make two failed attempts first. Wouldn't you get increasingly annoyed or wrathful if people kept trying to kill you? And be pretty ticked off when they finally did? Imagine if they'd been successful on attempt #1 - for someone who'd got rid of anger in their mind-stream, perhaps he wouldn't have been able to generate 'sufficient' wrath if he'd been killed on the first attempt.

(2) His wrath didn't arise from anger that they'd managed to kill him, but from his compassion for the kind of karma his murderers would face, which is reflective of his current behaviour/role as a protector.

(3) Of course, as someone who had got rid of anger in their mind-stream, he has total control over his body, speech and mind - that is, he CAN generate wrath if he wants. Why allow himself to die such a controversial death? Well, isn't the controversial death still being discussed to this day, and helping to spread the Dorje Shugden name? Again, compassion.

(4) Then there's also that he gave his life up for the Dharma. The wellbeing of sentient beings was more important than his mortality. Keeping his promise to Nechung was more important than his mortality. Compassion again.

(5) In death, as violent as it was, he was in total control - he GAVE his murderers the means to kill him.

I open the floor :)

I thank you Dharma Defender for presenting this perspective clearly.

I did not really see it that way although I have read it many times that TDG informed his murderers how to kill him.

In this respect, it just re-affirms the great compassion TDG holds at all times and how attained he was. He can control his death, rebirth, etc.

We can't even control our irritation, let alone, anger.

Thank you for sharing this. I truly appreciate this.

Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen perhapes manifested his own attackers in order to fufill his promise  :)

kurava

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2010, 11:27:12 AM »
Hi,
This reminds me of a sutric story of Buddha Shakyamuni .

In one of Buddha's reincarnations, he willingly took on the negative karma of killing a would-be murderer in order to save the victims as well as the potential murderer from going to the hell realm.

TDG allowed himself to die a horrible (from our point of view) death so as to arise as a wrathful protector to fulfill his promise to Nechung. Only a being who has realized the great compassion can bring himself to act so selflessly !

DharmaDefender

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 12:55:36 PM »
Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen perhapes manifested his own attackers in order to fufill his promise  :)

Entirely possible. After all, if enlightened Beings are in full control of their minds and rebirths, why can they not manifest one or more bodies? Technically speaking, aren't all enlightened Beings of the same mind, that which arises out of compassion? It's just the physical manifestation that's different - we're so limited in our thinking that one mind equals one body.

To imagine the non-stop “suffering” our kind Protector goes through just for us to progress in our Dharma practice, if that is not compassion, what is?!

I think the only time Dorje Shugden ever comes close to suffering is when we transgress our vows. Same goes for our teachers I s'pose. They try every method for us to progress, and yet we never do. What are we telling them from our actions? That their methods are ineffectual? What kind of message are we sending out to people considering taking refuge with our lama?

'Worst' bit is, out of their compassion, they can't stop trying (for as long as space remains right?). But they see us and what kind of rebirths we're going to take, by virtue of the negative karma we generate whenever we perform negative actions of body, speech and mind. And it hurts them.

It is so much ingratitude on our part, to our lamas and to our Protector. Dorje Shugden gave his life for us, and what do we do? We disappoint him and we are a burden. I think if we truly understood karma, that'd be the best kind of protection and we'd no longer be a burden.

In fact that makes me think that perhaps Dorje Shugden himself manifests as a result of our karma - we need someone to protect us since we can't protect ourselves! Once everyone understands and realises karma, does he still need to be around?

triesa

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2010, 06:53:18 PM »
In fact that makes me think that perhaps Dorje Shugden himself manifests as a result of our karma - we need someone to protect us since we can't protect ourselves! Once everyone understands and realises karma, does he still need to be around?
[/quote]

Yes I do believe it is our karma that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen had to manifest as a Dharma protector for this degenerated age and time to help us clear obstacles on our spiritual path. Degenerated age makes Dharma practice more difficult, so a wrathful protector has to arise specifially to deal with all these humongous obstacles we may face.

The wrathful aspect of him is like a lovng mother scolding his child of the consequences of our action out of ignorance, selfishness, big ego mind. His compassion aspect is that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen arose as Dharma protector Dorje Shugden as he kept his promise to Nechung to uphold the Tsongkhapa Lineage in the time ahead.


Vajraprotector

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2010, 09:26:18 AM »
Thank you DharmaDefender for sharing your thoughts.

I agree with you because the seed or motivation was planted with virtuous thoughts. Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen's "unfortunate" death that made him arise as a Dorje Shugden was part of the results of his promise to Nechung to arise as Dharma protector.

I don't believe such a grand master who has benefitted many in many lifetimes could have arise out of wrath (anger). It was manifested.

Hmm, it's interesting that I am currently reading about wrathful yidams and vajra anger:

Wrathful yidams are always associated with what is known in tantric terms as “vajra anger.” Vajra anger is without hatred, a dynamic energy which, no matter which of the five wisdoms it belongs to, is invincible. It is completely indestructible, imperturbable, because it was not created but discovered as an original quality.

Wrathful and warlike, it devastates the tendency towards idiot compassion and cuts through the hesitations that come from disbelieving in one’s Buddha-nature. Doubt is destroyed and confusion is chopped into pieces. Thus the wrathful yidams are portrayed treading on the corpse of ego, wearing ornaments of human bones and skulls, drinking blood, holding lethal weapons of all kinds.

(From: http://www.himalayanart.org/pages/Visual_Dharma/yidams.html - this should be by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche if not mistaken)

DharmaDefender

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2010, 06:48:06 PM »
Yes I do believe it is our karma that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen had to manifest as a Dharma protector for this degenerated age and time to help us clear obstacles on our spiritual path. Degenerated age makes Dharma practice more difficult, so a wrathful protector has to arise specifially to deal with all these humongous obstacles we may face.

Speaking of degeneracy, I was taught that traditionally, the protector practice is one of the higher practices because it is just that precious. It tends to be given after one has mastered the lamrim. However, due to the degenerate age and people's difficulty in holding their vows or doing their practices, we are being given protector practices first because people now find it very difficult to practise the lamrim.

It points to how easily we get our practices these days, and how we're less likely to treasure them. My teacher once told me that in the past, to get just one teaching or just one mantra, people would have to prove themselves first. It meant that when they got the practice, they would really treasure it and actually practise it. These days, if you put people through those trials, they aren't going to stick around so such methods are no longer possible. Teachers need to make things easy first, so people gain trust in the dharma and practise it...and if they run later, at least they had some benefit of dharma in their lives.

It seems dharma and gurus have to convince their students now, instead students trying to prove they are worthy. Yet another sign of degeneracy...?

Helena

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2010, 03:30:06 AM »
There is no doubt that these are the 'wildest times'.

I say that because people rather treasure their delusions and ego and not the actual Three Jewels. Especially, their Gurus.

They would trade in their Guru, Buddha, Dharma and Sangha for higher paying jobs, friends, sex, fun, shopping, etc. They perceive their samsaric world to be their paradise and any Dharmic world to be a trap or failure in life.

Everything is reversed at this day and age.

What's a true gem is regarded to be useless.

What's useless is regarded to be of such high importance.

It is no wonder Enlightened Beings need to manifest and emanate in so many different ways in order to help us. And even then, we are still resisting and fighting.



Helena

triesa

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2010, 07:49:10 AM »
There is no doubt that these are the 'wildest times'.

I say that because people rather treasure their delusions and ego and not the actual Three Jewels. Especially, their Gurus.

They would trade in their Guru, Buddha, Dharma and Sangha for higher paying jobs, friends, sex, fun, shopping, etc. They perceive their samsaric world to be their paradise and any Dharmic world to be a trap or failure in life.

Everything is reversed at this day and age.

What's a true gem is regarded to be useless.

What's useless is regarded to be of such high importance.

It is no wonder Enlightened Beings need to manifest and emanate in so many different ways in order to help us. And even then, we are still resisting and fighting.





Yes Helena, you are right. It is like an ignorant person who was give a piece of diamond and he chucks it away thinking it is just a piece of glass.

The degree and heaviness of our delusions are just beyond magnitude. And this is the world that we are living in, preaching us more of these delusions with all kinds or materialisms and self centered thinking.

The more I think about the fortunate few who have met a Guru in one life's time, it is literally like  striking a Jackpot!

And like what you said Helena, Thanks to all the enlightened beings emanating in many different  ways to help and benefit us.

beggar

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2010, 05:06:54 PM »
It seems dharma and gurus have to convince their students now, instead students trying to prove they are worthy. Yet another sign of degeneracy...?

Yes, this is quite a sad situation - but I think a small part of all of us is like this. It would be very rare that most Dharma practitioners these days want to enter lifelong meditation and gain enlightenment in one swift lifetime. Just look at all the "nice" distractions to take us far far away from ourselves.

If you look at what the Gurus have to do now, it definitely looks like what you have said there my dear defender: "It seems dharma and gurus have to convince their students now"

the Gurus are all very kind to find all the different methods to teach us and bring Dharma to us. They spoonfeed us!

Sometimes some "purists" think that Dharma should be practiced only this way or that way, or shouldn't be done this way or that way. For example, I saw some discussions on the "DS Brochure" thread that some people do not agree with this method. I think it is always important to remember this: "different strokes for different folks". And there sure are a lot of people out there who only want a quick fix, or are only attracted by some sort of worldly promise (fame or fortune or a relationship or some magic tarot-card-reading happiness)

Even if we don't agree with it, actually, we gotta realise we're not really so different. We have our own hang-ups and weird expectations that our lamas also have to adjust around and deal with too. This is a day and age when students bargain with their Gurus for their practice or just don't do the practice at all; or want it tailored to suit their schedules - wow the list of demands from us unworthy students is endless.

And the amazing thing is that the Gurus DO accommodate, probably a lot more than we even realise! So how are we really paying back their kindness? Or do we just allow the teachings to degenerate more to becoming just a carrot the gurus dangle in front of us for some quick cheap fix we're looking for?

DSFriend

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2010, 07:52:44 PM »
I always think when wrathful deaths like this happen...Would a fully enlightened being let sentient beings generate such horrendous karma from harming them ?

I don't think it's about an enlightened being "letting" sentient beings generate such horrendous karma. The little I know about karma, we are the ones who created it and will experience the effects. thus, External circumstances will trigger off the karmic seeds we carry in our mind-stream but, we are the ones who created the seeds to startout with. In this case, i think it could be that the horrendous karma would have been experienced either way by these beings. They could have other deeds which couldn't have contributed to the same negative result. But our of close affinity and compassion of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen, the deed was done on him instead.

Of course not out of compassion he manifests the means for his own demise  :)

Well, this is possible also, that he manifested the means for his own demise..which contributed to him arising perfectly as the protector for us living in this era with such karma.

Example:
Buddha Shakyamuni manifested students in his audience. They asked questions and thus many benefited from the turning of the wheel of dharma.
[/quote]

« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 08:11:13 PM by DSFriend »

DSFriend

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Re: A different view - wrath and compassion
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2010, 08:15:57 PM »
Thank you Dharma Defender for sharing your thoughts on this topic.

I find the points you listed out as not only coming from great compassion also such skillful means! Pretty amazing.