Author Topic: Lift the ban  (Read 17414 times)

LosangKhyentse

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Lift the ban
« on: June 13, 2010, 10:46:19 AM »


Your Holiness The Dalai Lama,

How can anything Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche taught be wrong or any part be mistaken? That would compromise the blessings of the lineal lamas which includes Yourself.

With such a reincarnation lineage stemming back to the time of the Sage Shakyamuni Himself and being so learned, how can this master Trijang Rinpoche be wrong?

Please lift the ban. Please give people the choice to practice what they wish according to their lama's practices.

You have said countless times, your previous incarnations propititated Nechung so hence, you must continue in the tradition of your predecessors. If that is the case many Lamas have practiced Dorje Shugden in their previous incarnations, so let them have the right and freedom to continue with their predecessors like yourself.

Just like you have the freedom to bestow Nechung on your disciples, so should the many other lamas bestow Dorje Shugden on their disciples.

You are One, they are many, please in your great compassion and with folded hands I implore you to lift the ban and let everything become as it was before your great passing which I do not wish.

Whatever You have said or done, I have the deepest faith and respect for You even till now. I with tears in my eyes IMPLORE AND BEG You to lift the ban. Let me have the freedom to practice without discrimination what my saintly lamas have bestowed upon me and millions of others.

Prostrating to You,

TK



Zach

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2010, 03:09:49 PM »
Wait what Tk Bestow Nechung ?  ???

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2010, 03:53:57 PM »
Wait what Tk Bestow Nechung ?  ???

Dalai Lama encourages the worship of Nechung. Always quotes what Nechung says publicly as reasons for some of his decisions.

He encourages Nechung temple, Oracle, practice to proliferate. If you go Dharamsala, many pictures of Nechung are for sale everywhere. Near the long circumambulation circuit around Dalai lama's palace in Dharamsala, a Nechung Shrine house has been erected for ppl to circumambulate around. The funny thing is Nechung is not an enlightened being. In fact an evil being that was subdued by Guru Rinpoche after a psychic war. He is still not enlightened and therefore not a proper object of refuge.

With Nechung not being enlightened, there's no Two Sides about it. Everyone knows he is not enlightened FROM DAY ONE. Full stop! But at least with Dorje Shugden, there's a large 'camp' that believe he is enlightened which he is.

So why encourage Nechung worship and practice when he is a subdued evil spirit. SO WHY BESTOW NECHUNG ON PEOPLE???

TK

Zach

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2010, 04:13:39 PM »
Wait what Tk Bestow Nechung ?  ???

Dalai Lama encourages the worship of Nechung. Always quotes what Nechung says publicly as reasons for some of his decisions.

He encourages Nechung temple, Oracle, practice to proliferate. If you go Dharamsala, many pictures of Nechung are for sale everywhere. Near the long circumambulation circuit around Dalai lama's palace in Dharamsala, a Nechung Shrine house has been erected for ppl to circumambulate around. The funny thing is Nechung is not an enlightened being. In fact an evil being that was subdued by Guru Rinpoche after a psychic war. He is still not enlightened and therefore not a proper object of refuge.

With Nechung not being enlightened, there's no Two Sides about it. Everyone knows he is not enlightened FROM DAY ONE. Full stop! But at least with Dorje Shugden, there's a large 'camp' that believe he is enlightened which he is.

So why encourage Nechung worship and practice when he is a subdued evil spirit. SO WHY BESTOW NECHUNG ON PEOPLE???

TK


Duh this is new to me friend ! What is there some sort of empowerment for Pehar....?
Its an irony isnt it the REAL evil spirit is the one whom he has been taking advise from for a very long time Padmasambhava bound him as a protector...But i remember hearing once that one day it is prophesised that Pehar will break his oath and wreak havoc amongst the Dharma.  >:(

The Nechung temple has been around for centurys as far as i know...But i did not realize there was devotion to this spirit encouraged ? Would you be able to shed futher light on this  ?  :)

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2010, 04:17:51 PM »
Wait what Tk Bestow Nechung ?  ???

Dalai Lama encourages the worship of Nechung. Always quotes what Nechung says publicly as reasons for some of his decisions.

He encourages Nechung temple, Oracle, practice to proliferate. If you go Dharamsala, many pictures of Nechung are for sale everywhere. Near the long circumambulation circuit around Dalai lama's palace in Dharamsala, a Nechung Shrine house has been erected for ppl to circumambulate around. The funny thing is Nechung is not an enlightened being. In fact an evil being that was subdued by Guru Rinpoche after a psychic war. He is still not enlightened and therefore not a proper object of refuge.

With Nechung not being enlightened, there's no Two Sides about it. Everyone knows he is not enlightened FROM DAY ONE. Full stop! But at least with Dorje Shugden, there's a large 'camp' that believe he is enlightened which he is.

So why encourage Nechung worship and practice when he is a subdued evil spirit. SO WHY BESTOW NECHUNG ON PEOPLE???

TK


Duh this is new to me friend ! What is there some sort of empowerment for Pehar....?
Its an irony isnt it the REAL evil spirit is the one whom he has been taking advise from for a very long time Padmasambhava bound him as a protector...But i remember hearing once that one day it is prophesised that Pehar will break his oath and wreak havoc amongst the Dharma.  >:(

The Nechung temple has been around for centurys as far as i know...But i did not realize there was devotion to this spirit encouraged ? Would you be able to shed futher light on this  ?  :)


There's a Nechung Monastery in Dharamsala and Nechung Oracle. Both are advertised and highlighted by the Tibetan Govt in Exile always. The TGIE also sponsors them.

There are many videos on this website and youtube regarding Nechung and the monastery. Please do a search.

TK

Zach

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2010, 04:42:22 PM »
Wait what Tk Bestow Nechung ?  ???

Dalai Lama encourages the worship of Nechung. Always quotes what Nechung says publicly as reasons for some of his decisions.

He encourages Nechung temple, Oracle, practice to proliferate. If you go Dharamsala, many pictures of Nechung are for sale everywhere. Near the long circumambulation circuit around Dalai lama's palace in Dharamsala, a Nechung Shrine house has been erected for ppl to circumambulate around. The funny thing is Nechung is not an enlightened being. In fact an evil being that was subdued by Guru Rinpoche after a psychic war. He is still not enlightened and therefore not a proper object of refuge.

With Nechung not being enlightened, there's no Two Sides about it. Everyone knows he is not enlightened FROM DAY ONE. Full stop! But at least with Dorje Shugden, there's a large 'camp' that believe he is enlightened which he is.

So why encourage Nechung worship and practice when he is a subdued evil spirit. SO WHY BESTOW NECHUNG ON PEOPLE???

TK


Duh this is new to me friend ! What is there some sort of empowerment for Pehar....?
Its an irony isnt it the REAL evil spirit is the one whom he has been taking advise from for a very long time Padmasambhava bound him as a protector...But i remember hearing once that one day it is prophesised that Pehar will break his oath and wreak havoc amongst the Dharma.  >:(

The Nechung temple has been around for centurys as far as i know...But i did not realize there was devotion to this spirit encouraged ? Would you be able to shed futher light on this  ?  :)


There's a Nechung Monastery in Dharamsala and Nechung Oracle. Both are advertised and highlighted by the Tibetan Govt in Exile always. The TGIE also sponsors them.

There are many videos on this website and youtube regarding Nechung and the monastery. Please do a search.

TK

Yes they are highlighted as being almost a cabinate adviser the Nechung oracle which is rather odd considering that many predictions it makes are off...Especially with regards to Tibets Freedom.  :-\
When you said Bestow Nechung i assumed you ment in the form of some sort of self-generation empowerment.
Perhapes Dear Trinley Kelsang will no some more with regards to this being.  :)

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 06:47:53 PM »
This nechung-thingy, or rather the need for the TGIE to drag Nechung also to this debacle, has always seem a funny one. And yet, it is totally logical. How so? Bear a little:


Whenever governments and politicians fail to deliver the glorious future they have been promising, they have two choices. Either they admit, that they have failed, or they proclaim that there exists a force preventing them from delivering. In democracies, the leaders usually get replaced, but when the government is non-democratic, the leaders simply cannot admit that mistakes have been made, that the obtacles were underestimated, and so forth. This holds true especially in all totalitarian systems; the Party cannot have made mistakes, the God-King cannot have miscalculated, the Fuhrer has not made misjudgemets. All the problems and unfulfilled promises are caused by not bad leadership, but by insidious forces within our midst!

By this token, the Soviet Union did not misfunction because the theory and leadership were bordering on idiocy, but because there were "reactionary forces, enemies of the people, saboteurs, and so forth" among the people themselves. To get to the socialist paradise, let us just get rid of these unwanted elements of our society. Then everything will be just as the Party has promised. A little purge, some spillage, and the paradise is ours!

The Third Reich had their share of "decadent elements, jews, homosexuals, whatever", which being removed, would let the Party to usher the glorious thousand year empire, promised initially to all germans.

And as the TGIE has promised the freedom of Tibet, and it yet does not arrive, is not this just a proof that there are some reactionaries and collaborators amongst the tibetans, who must be singled out and ostracised. Surely the non-freedom is not because the Leader of the TGIE has grossly miscalculated the sheer will and strength, not to mention institutional patience, of the communist party of Beijing. There cannot be mistakes made, for the Leader is after all, trapped in his own image, as a Buddha, and he simply cannot make errors. So whatever prevents the freedom of Tibet must be within "the reactionary elements of morally deviant conspiring saboteurs", yes. All within the refugee community, and their secret supporters, the foreign agents. The Beijing cannot be blamed for non-freedom, for they are the ones that TGIE has to negotiate with, so the blame must be somewhere else, amongst the tibetans themselves. But not within the TGIE, for they are not capable of making errors, miscalculations, or misjudgements. So what can we blame? Well, why not Dorje Shugden practitioners? They fit the role.

Beyond this, there is nothing deeper, or larger, or grander, thinking or scheming in existence behind the Ban.  The Ban is just that. No big picture, but just a page from the oldest book of politics.

And how does the Nechung fit in this? Well, after all, once the Leader had proclaimed, that Nechung had stated that there would be freedom in the year so-and-so, and it never manifested, there must be, by the aforementioned logic, a spiritual conspiracy, some dark force, that prevents Nechung from doing what the Leader has told, or interpreted as told, for otherwise Nechung would surely had delivered the promised freedom. And therefore it necessarily follows, that Dorje Shugden must be seen as a force opposing Nechung, just as the Dorje Shugden practitioners must be seen as an evil conspiring force; both the deity and the practitioners, preventing the Leader from delivering on his promises. For after all, the other alternative would be to admit, that the Leader just does not have a clue. But since he is "publically a buddha", he cannot be seen as an incompetent driftwood, so lo, there must be an evil ghost with his supporters, preventing the State Protector and the State Leader.

That is all, folks!


LosangKhyentse

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2010, 07:10:25 PM »
This nechung-thingy, or rather the need for the TGIE to drag Nechung also to this debacle, has always seem a funny one. And yet, it is totally logical. How so? Bear a little:


Whenever governments and politicians fail to deliver the glorious future they have been promising, they have two choices. Either they admit, that they have failed, or they proclaim that there exists a force preventing them from delivering. In democracies, the leaders usually get replaced, but when the government is non-democratic, the leaders simply cannot admit that mistakes have been made, that the obtacles were underestimated, and so forth. This holds true especially in all totalitarian systems; the Party cannot have made mistakes, the God-King cannot have miscalculated, the Fuhrer has not made misjudgemets. All the problems and unfulfilled promises are caused by not bad leadership, but by insidious forces within our midst!

By this token, the Soviet Union did not misfunction because the theory and leadership were bordering on idiocy, but because there were "reactionary forces, enemies of the people, saboteurs, and so forth" among the people themselves. To get to the socialist paradise, let us just get rid of these unwanted elements of our society. Then everything will be just as the Party has promised. A little purge, some spillage, and the paradise is ours!

The Third Reich had their share of "decadent elements, jews, homosexuals, whatever", which being removed, would let the Party to usher the glorious thousand year empire, promised initially to all germans.

And as the TGIE has promised the freedom of Tibet, and it yet does not arrive, is not this just a proof that there are some reactionaries and collaborators amongst the tibetans, who must be singled out and ostracised. Surely the non-freedom is not because the Leader of the TGIE has grossly miscalculated the sheer will and strength, not to mention institutional patience, of the communist party of Beijing. There cannot be mistakes made, for the Leader is after all, trapped in his own image, as a Buddha, and he simply cannot make errors. So whatever prevents the freedom of Tibet must be within "the reactionary elements of morally deviant conspiring saboteurs", yes. All within the refugee community, and their secret supporters, the foreign agents. The Beijing cannot be blamed for non-freedom, for they are the ones that TGIE has to negotiate with, so the blame must be somewhere else, amongst the tibetans themselves. But not within the TGIE, for they are not capable of making errors, miscalculations, or misjudgements. So what can we blame? Well, why not Dorje Shugden practitioners? They fit the role.

Beyond this, there is nothing deeper, or larger, or grander, thinking or scheming in existence behind the Ban.  The Ban is just that. No big picture, but just a page from the oldest book of politics.

And how does the Nechung fit in this? Well, after all, once the Leader had proclaimed, that Nechung had stated that there would be freedom in the year so-and-so, and it never manifested, there must be, by the aforementioned logic, a spiritual conspiracy, some dark force, that prevents Nechung from doing what the Leader has told, or interpreted as told, for otherwise Nechung would surely had delivered the promised freedom. And therefore it necessarily follows, that Dorje Shugden must be seen as a force opposing Nechung, just as the Dorje Shugden practitioners must be seen as an evil conspiring force; both the deity and the practitioners, preventing the Leader from delivering on his promises. For after all, the other alternative would be to admit, that the Leader just does not have a clue. But since he is "publically a buddha", he cannot be seen as an incompetent driftwood, so lo, there must be an evil ghost with his supporters, preventing the State Protector and the State Leader.

That is all, folks!



Dear Zhalmed Pawo,

1. I am amazed at your writing ability. I can never write so fluidly and so clearly. Fantastic writing. I truly wish so much you would write books, articles, whatever and always. It is so succulent to read. I enjoy it so much. After reading what you wrote, I know your thoughts and what your expressing perfectly clearly. You are gifted.

2. I don't agree with your theory, but you know what, who cares?? Your theory, and the way you express it is so clear. So fantastic!! You really earn my respect. It doesn't matter who is right, what you write is your belief, it is passionate. I FULLY RESPECT YOUR THEORY and will remember it. I will share it with others also.

3. I SINCERELY THANK YOU for your sharing. I am on your side. I will remain on your side, although we differ in our theories for the current ban...I am proud to be part of 'your' 'our' Dorje Shugden camp!! You and many others are so talented on this forum. So many talented, intelligent, devoted and passionate people on this forum. Wonderful!! Together may we overturn this ban or at least make it insignificant and ignored in the near future. May we on this forum and getting involved on this website share the truth and bring Dorje Shugden's golden era into fruition quickly!

Long Live Dorje Shugden!! Keep writing Zhalmed Pawo! Never Stop!!

TK



honeydakini

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2010, 07:29:37 PM »
Thank you for all the views... and *LOVING* Zhamed Palmo's entry on this post.

The other "funny" odd thing about this whole thing is that if you trace the history of Dorje Shugden, it was Nechung who encouraged Dorje Shugden to arise as a Dharma Protector many hundreds of years ago. So odd that 1) after encouraging him to arise as a protector 2) allowing thousands of practitioners to propitiate him for over 350+ years (including Dalai Lama), "Nechung" suddenly realises/ decideds that DS is an evil spirit.

He may be a subdued evil spirit. But he's not dumb. And he's subdued for a reason. If he's going to be playing tricks, surely there will be repercussions for him too. Nope, he can't be that dumb.

WoselTenzin

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2010, 07:33:59 PM »
Hi Zhalmed Pawo

Although like TK, I don’t agree with your theory, what you wrote is so funny and entertaining.  I can’t stop laughing when I read it.  You are an excellent writer with a great sense of wit and a big tinge of bitchiness.   If I didn’t know better,  I think it can make sense to me  ;D

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2010, 09:25:31 PM »

I'm not so sure that ZP wrote with the purpose of being funny. Although he is always funny and mostly, witty. In any case he is being accurate in an almost painful way.

No doubt he is trying again to show that the theory that appears when you google this website "DS DL spreading Dharma together" is a wishfulthinking fantasy. I was going to say that this theory/fantasy is unnecessary but it IS necessary for certain people. It plays several roles that we can only guess. It has a type of reverse but similar role than the ban: the ban finds wrong where there is no wrong to hide failures or to prevent them, this theory finds good where there is no good to hide what is wrong.

Here several reasons why this theory is necessary or might be necessary:
1- It allows Tibetans that love and worship their Dalai Lama and cannot disentangle his two roles, secular and religious, to accept that what he is doing is wrong but saving him from any possible judgment by inventing a fantastic intention. Instead of attributing a normal intention, political, arising from the DL as political leader, they attribute an imaginary beneficial intention, against all the sayings of the DL. Actually they are not defending the DL. They defend "their" Dalai Lama, a complex mixture of father figure with ancient sacred king figure, with patriotic identity, a figure that nobody that is not Tibetan can properly understand. I have to say that I find it quite natural that a Tibetan adheres to this theory. If I were Tibetan I would desperatly try to find some justification, in the same way that I would've tried to find justification for any wrong action that my own father could've committed. (He didn't, my dad was a saintly man).

2- It allows Buddhists that have received teachings from the Dalai Lama, again, to be able to say that what he did is wrong, but by the trick of the imaginative theory, they might be trying not to break their vows of Guru devotion.

3- It allows Buddhists that did not receive teachings from the Dalai Lama but that have teachers who did receive them ... the same.

4- The fourth possibility is miscellanea, you can fill it in. From feel good thinking to whatever.

So this "DS DL spreading Dharma together" is a religious fantasy, but I don't see anything wrong with keeping it in my heart if I need it. One has the right to go easy with the mind, not to force the mind to bear what is unbearable.

Now, to make it public ... that is the problem.

I've given some religious reasons to maintain that to make it public is a problem.
But there are also non-religious reasons.

For the moment the image of the Dalai Lama is mostly preserved because of his international standing and because it's difficult for people to give up on such popular icon of goodness.  But any moment the world can truly realize that he has inflicted civil and social persecution on a minority. The elements are out there and the image of the puzzle can become clear all of a sudden. (Not that I wish that, on the contrary.) If that happened the world is going to turn against us, as XXI century Buddhists, for having defended a perpetrator of human rights attacks. And this is no good for the good name of Buddhadharma.

Anyway, no biggie, we already have a saviour if this were to happen: WSS. What they did is hopefully enough to prevent all Buddhists to be called "cover uppers for a dictator" or some other nicety.

Warning: Since begging others to please follow our view has been visualized as tyrannical, as similar to TGIE's actions, let's clarify matters. I beg all the members of this Forum to join me in this view (particularly in the religious part that does not reflect a personal opinion but just facts of Dharma). But of course nobody is forced to follow this view. Nobody is forced not to speak openly of theirs neither.

And yes, LIFT THE BAN.


icy

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 02:27:50 AM »
Dear DS people

Please correct me if I am wrong.  There is no bad or good in this world.  Whatever challenges DS people have now eventually there will be light. Bad situations and challenges will transform to good and beneficial situations.  What the Dalai Lama is doing is indirectly creating a lot of adverse publicity for Lord Shugden and spreading the teaching world wide; spreading like wild fire; His skillful methods with wisdom and compassion for the world, even the Chinese in China can benefit from this furor while his reputation is at stake, much to his compassionate intent.

There will be a lift to the ban eventually - Victory to Lord Shugden! :-*

icy

harrynephew

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 02:56:09 AM »
Thank you for all the views... and *LOVING* Zhamed Palmo's entry on this post.

The other "funny" odd thing about this whole thing is that if you trace the history of Dorje Shugden, it was Nechung who encouraged Dorje Shugden to arise as a Dharma Protector many hundreds of years ago. So odd that 1) after encouraging him to arise as a protector 2) allowing thousands of practitioners to propitiate him for over 350+ years (including Dalai Lama), "Nechung" suddenly realises/ decideds that DS is an evil spirit.

He may be a subdued evil spirit. But he's not dumb. And he's subdued for a reason. If he's going to be playing tricks, surely there will be repercussions for him too. Nope, he can't be that dumb.

I luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurve ZP's posting. Though I don't completely believe in his theory but i can read the love and passion that ZP puts into the writing. It makes his writing very engaging and we need more of you!!!!

Yea, Honeydakini, all these contraversy with the TGIE and HHDL is so funny. He proliferates Nechung who is a worldly spirit in the first place which is totally discouraged and at the same time who made and encouraged the manifestation of DS. Now suddenly DS is a wrong issue.

Hello Nechung...... If u think DS is wrong now, you're a little dumb to contribute in making him a protector 350 years ago, aint ya?

But if that's not the case,
I think we're not doing enough to promote DS! That's wy HHDL is fanning up more fire in Dharamsala for us to get agitated with the new Nechung shrine and HHDL's Nechung-ism.

So guys! print more brochures, make the DS movie come out, write more books abt DS, do more DS pujas and INVITE MORE PEOPLE TO JOIN THIS FORUM!!!!!

WE NEED DS!!!

H1N1
Harry Nephew

Love Shugden, Love all Lamas, Heal the World!

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 08:59:53 PM »
Dear DS people

Please correct me if I am wrong.  There is no bad or good in this world.  Whatever challenges DS people have now eventually there will be light. Bad situations and challenges will transform to good and beneficial situations.  What the Dalai Lama is doing is indirectly creating a lot of adverse publicity for Lord Shugden and spreading the teaching world wide; spreading like wild fire; His skillful methods with wisdom and compassion for the world, even the Chinese in China can benefit from this furor while his reputation is at stake, much to his compassionate intent.

There will be a lift to the ban eventually - Victory to Lord Shugden! :-*

icy

It's safer for one's practice to see it this way.

Times have changed. Dharma has to degenerate unfortunately. Whether we like it or not, we are a part of the degeneracy. Better 'degernate' dharma than no dharma at all. Plant seeds for Maitreya is the best hope for me.

We should never give up simply because things don't go our way or ppl don't share our views. Why? You give up, you lose and you inspire no one to carry on the torch.

TK

Big Uncle

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Re: Lift the ban
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2010, 03:53:58 PM »
This thread is interesting. Why do the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden and claim him a spirit while he turns around and consult another spirit Nechung (an unenlightened spirit)? It really doesn't makes sense! I like the way he gets away with it but I do like the fact that he is making Dorje Shugden such a renown 'menace'. Intelligent people will see through his flimsy logic and get curious of this obscure Tibetan practice. Lovely way to spread this practice.