Author Topic: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS  (Read 19128 times)

a friend

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WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« on: April 05, 2008, 09:35:34 PM »


There is a question Polartortoise asked some time ago that was not adequately answered. Here what he asked:

Quote
Why did the gelug leaders not take earlier action, why did they silently allow the dalai lama to destroy their heritage? (Kundeling Rinpoche's) answer baffled me then and still does now. He said that the tibetans did not want to publicly oppose the dalai lama as they wanted to resolve it internally. For 20 years, it was an issue of face??

I found an answer in Dr. Ursula Bernis' book. Of course, as she says somewhere else, this matter has so many layers and is treated with such irrational approach both by the DL and the Western scholars that tried to justify his actions, that no simple answer is enough. It's good, though, to read what she wrote a decade ago about this serious question. And, Polartortoise, I hope it helps you at least to rest assured that our Lamas did not remain silent in order not to loose face.

FROM DR. URSULA BERNIS BOOK

One of the most disturbing components I found in trying to make sense of this complexly layered phenomenon is the intolerant out of hand rejection of any interpretation other than the official one. This forces anyone open-minded and inclusive into a position of having to disagree with the Dalai Lama instead of merely presenting a different perspective on an issue. It is deeply disturbing that the global Buddhism the Dalai Lama has dedicated his life to constructing rejects so absolutely any interpretation of the most learned Gelugpa Buddhist masters other than that of ignorant devil worshipers. It makes a rational approach practically impossible. [...]
In addition, the most educated Gelugpas affected by the ban remained silent. I respect their contemporary wisdom of refusing to compete in the global market place with discussions about esoteric Buddhist subjects where they are inevitably misunderstood. The government's rejection of any reasoned debate about the subject condemned them to silence. From the beginning of the crisis in 1996 the Dalai Lama was determined to destroy the practice. Whether or not to continue Dorje Shugden was never subject to debate or negotiation. This type of intolerance is foreign to Buddhist principles. While a Buddhist teacher may advise the disciples not to do certain practices for religious reasons, the Dalai Lama's political status empowered his government, made up of many social groups, to enforce it. Hence, since a religious issue was displaced into the political domain in order to destroy a tradition, the official literature on the conflict is full of contradictions and unproven accusations. It is fragmentary and incoherent because it is primarily supported by appeal to authority in an attempt to prove the unprovable, not by facts or reasons.

The Dalai Lama himself did not add anything to help find a reasonable approach to this subject. In answer to my repeated request to provide reasons Westerners could understand so that they may judge for themselves why this conflict was occurring, he talked quite emotionally about evil spirits, spirit worship, and the mental instability of Western Buddhists [Interview, December 8, 1997, Dharamsala]. Hardly a rational approach.

...

polartortoise

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2008, 03:49:00 AM »
yes, i remember reading that. but it still doesn't answer my question. in maintaining silence, that act contributed to the lopsided dessemination of information. in the absence of any contrary view, the ONLY news is taken as truth. refusing to engage loses the fight. gandhi never refused to engage. he lead the way in showing active resistance that was not an expression of violence.

all through our history, men of courage and valour integrity and truth stood up not for themselves but for their fellow humans who were unable to defend themselves. remaining quiet makes each of us culpable to the conspiracy of abuse going on.

i feel we are completely bogged down in fruitlessly chasing our own tail. the whole issue is NOT about ds. it is about each human being's fundamental and basic right to the freedom of worship. that freedom does not require me to justify my practise.

respect for this fundamental principle dictates that anyone aggrieved by me should submit his accussation to my face and produce evidence proving the accusation. what is the difference between DL's actions and the actions of the military junta that kidnaps suspected dissidents to be incarcerated indefinitely without any right to a trial and due process of the Law? i challenge someone out there in peaceful passive land to please explain this to me.

granted, the subject is esoterically flavoured, but i wonder about the silence of the masters from the other lineages.. Even the many attempts to silence others on this website!

it is this conspiracy of silence that is a deadweight in my heart.


Ute

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2008, 05:30:42 AM »
The Whole Issue Is NOT about Dorje Shugden. It is about Each Human Being's Fundamental and Basic Right to the Freedom of Worship. That Freedom Does Not Require Me to Justify My Practice.
To Anyone!

Alexis

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2008, 06:56:55 AM »
I think there are many, many reasons why High Lamas are keeping quiet on this issue.

Actually, some Lamas have already spoken on the issue like Geshe Kelsang, Gonsar Rimpoche, etc.

One of the reasons for not actively/openly engage the DL on this issue might be that High lamas will not engage in that sort of stuff (activism) anyway, no matter what the issue. Keeping the pledges of Mahamudra requires non-action, non-production. Many high Lamas speak very little, and do very little anyway (beside pure/clean dharma!).

The other thing is that explaining that 'relative suffering might (will) ultimately bring benefits' cannot be said because it cannot be defended by reason alone (hence it belongs to the metaphysical order of explanations). This is surely the case with DS as it has been written that attempt to eradicate him only made him stronger, more powerfull. Since we are innocent of what we are being accused of, this persecution will only bring benefits in the long term for us and the Gelug tradition. This is what high lamas call 'the power of truth'! So the persecution is good in the end, but that cannot be said, right? We cannot explain it to common sense.

Another thing is that if you really go down the road of replying to lies and deceit, in order to match your opponents' arguments you will be forced to escalate and say things like:

'Even the Dalai-Lamas visualises himself drinking blood and eating human intestines everyday (Argham, Padyam, etc.)' and 'What demon? The Dalai-Lama himself whorships Kali, the blood-thirsty goddess of death (Pelden Lhamo)!' If we want to match the rethoric of our opponents we will end up in these types of horrible debates opening the door to many, many broken samayas and suffering. It's a good thing our fathers didn't go down that road and showed a good self-restraint example, like lojong, etc.

So, I think there are many, many reasons why high Lamas did not bother replying, many of which are higher metaphysical reasons that translate very poorly to common sense (they have a bad 'media' value). Like one day, a high lama said: 'if tulkus didn't have faults we wouldn't be able to see them!' Well, I can understand the principle of the utterance. However, someone else, like someone very new to buddhism, might be shocked at this 'license to kill'! This could mean,'whatever they do is fine', like abuse, stealing, etc. Some utterances are better left with no debate or no answers because debating these statements 'rationnally' only brings more confusion and more questions and problems.

See the Trimondi's critizing of the DL and the Kalachakra tantra of an example of 'debating with reason' gone astray:

http://www.trimondi.de/EN/deba03.html

To avoid futur 'Trimondis' to 'reason' with our DS practice, it's better to keep a low profile, until the predicted sunshine, No?




polartortoise

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2008, 07:46:14 AM »
alexis! did gandhi win the high ground and independence for india by bullets and guns?

u can spend the whole of your life on bended knees. that is your choice. but when your heart is moved by the call your ears hear, does your heart tremble?

when the tsunami hit acheh, it turned into an instant buriul ground. do u know what it was like for the thousands of volunteers to go into that horrific stench of decaying bodies and do what needed to be done for the still living?

Alexis

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2008, 01:24:38 PM »
Dear PT,

You cannot compare Gandhi with our buddhas from the Ganden lineage. Gandhi was not clearvoyant, nor did he have a realization of emptiness. Gandhi was not a practionner of Gelug mahamudra, Gandhi was a politician and a nationalist, which places him closer to DL than our spiritual fathers.

Buddhas are not activists!

polartortoise

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2008, 03:05:33 PM »
if buddha was not an activist, he would have walked away and never given his first sermon at deer park.

Alexis

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2008, 03:59:19 PM »
PT,

If you place Buddha Shakyamuni and Mahatma Gandhi's activities in the same category. If you place the Buddhist teachings in the same category as Martin Luther King's 'I have a dream'.

Then, although we both are sitting on meditation cushions ringing bells and doing fancy hand gestures, we might not even be practicing the same 'religion'.

Ute

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2008, 08:26:03 PM »
we may have a difference as to how we are approaching this problem. It may be that some of us here have a different assignment than others.
Stay calm_until the stream clears ", or the Sun shines safely, may not be for all of us.
As in the story of Krishna & Arjuana.
If is perfectly clear that Dl controls the western media somehow or another.
It is real tight and tough, to get anything other than a comment posted anywhere.
Meanwhile, I would ask you to inquire as to how calmly the Brothers in India are making out.
Maybe if they just sit there long enough, something will happen all by itself and everything will be
 alright. Just dandy!
 It's a fine line, isn't it?
We need to nothing?
Shall we hide in a corner and wait for what to pass?
Or shall we stand up and recognize that each of us is a beacon of light and shine brightly, each in his own way.
If we do not shine, then how will the darkness recede ? If we flicker in resolve and determination, then the light will become dim and the room will not be light.
If we burn with a radiance that fill the room. Then the darkness will disappear.
I think hiding our light from the world is fearful and weakens our resolve to obtain enlightenment.
You can expect deaths  or worse in the Colonies very soon.
 Then shall we just sit here and discuss whether or not the Dalia is a Buddha and there is a bigger plan, on a need to know basis only.
 I do not concern myself with broken Samayas or my actions taking me to Hell. Why worry about that when we have so much hell right here to deal with. I do not fear the hells the way I used.
 I figure I am either so dammed it make no difference or I am fully protected and doing my job .
It's difficult enough to figure all this without the extra concern if I wiped my shoes or not.
 We had better figure something out in real time and right away.
One cannot always exhibit the finest manners when one is in the trenches.
I find no problem quoting other great humans who sacrificed for higher principles. I am not anything special and act as a human just trying to be a little bit better with each step.
I am not realized or a Buddha, but I strive to act like one, sometimes.
There is truth in everything and everybody.
The last man standing does not mean he was the best man standing.
especially when one had a real big club and the other had none.

We need to focus and converse on real solutions in real time and just do the best we can with what we've learned and not get lost in a Tea Ceremony .
I think it especially important not to forget that we can be brazen for the monks. We have not vowed ourselves into non-action.
    We can take the heat. We've done it before. Come on out. United we stand_______Inactive, we fall.
What do you think?





polartortoise

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2008, 01:54:28 AM »
ingrid betancourt once said, "..life is not the most important thing.. sometimes you don't achieve your goals but the intention means everything."

6 years in captivity by the FARC.

the 'enemy' is not DL. it's not china. it's not 'out  there'. it's the absence of love in my heart for you. i sit in meditation to establish my motivation. but my backside is not cemented there. the middle way means balance. not inaction. not a deafening blanket conspiracy of silence.

what made buddha decide to turn the wheel?

Alexis

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2008, 02:32:47 AM »
He got request by Indra and Brahma!

Alexis

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2008, 03:03:53 AM »
Buddhas never go to places (move) without being invited and they never give teaching (speak) without being requested! This is because their mind is of one taste with the mahamudra. They never initiate anything, they abide in non-action and non-production. This is how they do not creat new karma and achieve liberation.


polartortoise

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2008, 05:18:37 PM »
buddha means the awakened one. they are already liberated.
alexis, we are talking apples and oranges here. when a blind man is trying to cross the street, do u wait to hear him ask u for help or do u walk up to him to offer your help?

Ute

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2008, 07:18:04 PM »
It appears our Brothers and Sisters in the Indian Colonies are in the hot seat.
Religious Freedom & Freedom of Speech are as alien to the the Tibetan Colonies as Dharma is to Wall Street.
I am reminded of tens of thousand of Lemmings running off a cliff.
As I watch the insanity of the Freedom For Tibet Marchers rush into a Medieval Dungeon Time Warp.
These Westerners are the result of the Cold War propaganda brain washing that has taken it's toll over the last 50 years. They only see what the have been conditioned to see. They have no discrimination nor wisdom .
If only we could clean our own homes. Before we try to clean others homes.
 How does a government that burn over 90 people alive in their homes in Texas for simply believing differently than they do ?
j How do we justify condemning other country's human rights records?
 Remember David Claresh and the  Dravidian's Branch, outside of Waco,Texas ,in the early 90's?

I hope our people do not get burned out in the Colonies. It can happen as quickly as flicking a match head .
How to have compassion and understanding is a real effort.
Indifference to suffering ?
Is it like,  a Martyr sacrificing his life and his indifference to others.
That happen to be around their sick offering?

« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 07:48:38 PM by Ute »

Ute

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Re: WHY THE SILENCE OF OUR LAMAS
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2008, 07:24:25 PM »
LETTER FROM DORJE SHUGDEN RELIGIOUS & CHARITABLE SOCIETY

LOOKS LIKE THEY NEED HELP TO ME.