Proof of the bigger picture - Chinese demanded monks to worship Shugden!!!

[wang]

Woeser has already gone beyond the line of being a 'reporter' with a balanced view, due to her deep hatred to Beijing government and deep affiliation with Tibetan(but you need to investigate a bit more how come she and her husband Wang lixiong are not arrested after that much negative comment of  policies in Tibet for over 10 years , unlike most other dissidents in China..)

The China government is not promoting Dorje Shugden in Tibetan monasteries.   Officials keep their eye closed for locals Tibetan with HHDL' photo in their shrine during 'non-sensitive' period, do you think they will promote DS in monasteries if these monasteries don't have this tradition?

A more reasonable reading from this news is that the team may visited a Gelukpa monastery which traditionally worship DS, and they ask them keep this practice, not following HHDL's advice.  If it were like most of other Gelukpa monasteries(which don't worship DS), they will not promote it.

What Woeser hinted in her report is that the Beijing government and DS followers are gathered in line against HHDL, a very common story in India.  Don't be excited by this..

[michaela]

When I read this post, my faith increases about the greatness of Dalai Lama.  He is really implementing the ban for the bigger picture.  For that he does not hesitate to make a fool of himself by stating that DS is a spirit.  HHDL was a DS practitioner as stated in Trijang Rinpoche's Illusory Play.  Even prior to living Tibet to go to India, he was consulting several Oracles, one of them being DS oracle.  And he chose to follow DS suggestions to go to India through Kham.  The experience to go through the journey is stated in his early biography, My Land My People.  This account is later confirmed in Trijang Rinpoche's biography, Illusory Play.  What My Land My People do not state is the consultation with Gyalchen Shugden prior to his living Tibet.

I found it incomprehensible that HHDL implemented the ban just for the sake of implementing it or because suddenly he thinks that DS is a spirit.  DS is a sacred practice given to him by his holy Guru, Trijang Rinpoche. 

Saying that, I still pray that the ban will be lifted soon because regardless of the bigger pictures, the ban has various negative implications such as discriminations among Tibetans, people living in fear, schism among Sangha in monasteries, etc.

[Ensapa]

Lets look at things logically: If HHDL was real, do you think he would have ingratitude, especially towards the Dharma protector who guaranteed his safety across Tibet? If he has, why can he still be the Dalai lama? Unless he has a bigger plan in mind, in line with Trijang Rinpoche's plan to spread Dorje Shugden to more people than we can ever imagine, and he is only doing this as an act.

Would you follow a teacher who does not have gratitude? Would that teacher even be successful in the first place in spreading the Dharma? If the teacher is successful but displays ingratitude, it could only mean one thing: it is actually an act of sorts for a bigger reason that we cannot see for now and he does not mean it (contradictions appear when he talks about Dorje Shugden and also on Dorje Shugden articles on his website...)

In response to wang, i dont think all the monasteries in Tibet proper got the message that Dorje Shugden is banned as Tibet is vast and some monasteries are very remote. Khadro-la, the oracle for Tseringma/Tenma who escaped from Tibet in her account said that she was not even aware that Tibet has been taken over by the communists. This shows that Tibet is more remote than we think.

Not all DS followers are against HHDL. For example, in this forum you can see that there are so many people who support both Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama, side by side, hand in hand so how can you say that all Dorje Shugden practitioners are against HHDL? Unless you have bias and are severely uninformed of the real situations of things, you should have known better.....

[thaimonk]

We can look at this whole scenario of the ban by Dalai Lama in a negative light which does not help our practice. Or we can look at it in the positive light as predicted by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. Either way the ban is on. Either way what is happening has happened.

For us to constantly say derogatory words to the Dalai Lama does not help us.

Why does Dorje Shugden not do something about this? Why does Kache Marpo who can 'swallow the sky' allow this to happen to his Master?

Why does Namka Barzin who has mystical tornado like magical power keep silent?

Why worship a protector who cannot protect himself against such a ban? Why does Shugden not stop this? Because it was meant to be.
Very simple, this was all meant to be. As time goes on we will see the ban was part of the grand scheme of things. The ban made us all work much harder, talk more, create websites, participate in forums, write letters, and become very steadfast in our commitment to our lamas, protector and lineage. It did have that effect for me and many of my friends for sure. The ban was definitely part of the bigger picture.

Nothing happens by coincidence. Dorje Shugden already told us to hang on steadfast and the ban will come to a conclusion within 4-5 years. All things will change and turn in our favour.

Those who disparaged will regret and the wise among those who criticized will apologize to Shugden. That time will surely come.

The bigger picture's purpose will come full circle.

[Mana]

Thaimonk, I like what you say here. I also like the beautiful thangka of Shugden in his most ferocious form.
Mana

[Tenzin Gyatso]

There is no bigger picture. Engaging in the practice of Shugden contradicts the advice of Lama Tsongakapa who recommended the principal protector for his lineage to be Kalarupa.

If we do not follow Tsongkapa's advice, we surely will not follow HHDL's advice. Once we start down that road, it is hard to stop.

We should make a clean break from Shugden. If Shugden is a protector like some claim, he won't mind. After all the Gelug lineage lamas such as Song and Trijhang Rinpoches all worshipped Kalarupa. Ganden, Sera and Drephung all worshipped Kalarupa as their main practice together with their specific monastic protectors. No one has any qualms with Kalarupa from day one. There is no two sides about Kalarupa and no controversy. But Shugden has much controversies springing from harm people have received as in Zemey Rinpoche's yellow book. Zemey Rinpoche was a practitioner of Shugden and a Gelug Lineage holder and Zemey himself says Shugden will harm or kill those who do not fall in line or practice Nyingmapa practice. What kind of protector is that? Kalarupa will never harm a follower of the Gelug for any reason or any practitioner for that matter. Shugden is dangerous.
 

Kalarupa is also propitiated in the upper and lower tantric colleges for hundreds of years but Shugden has not been. Gelug history, tradition and lineage is based upon Kalarupa and not Shugden.

[Zach]

Actually Lama Tsongkhapa made Dorje Shugden his Principle protector, It was felt by many masters that Kalarupa had been granted his retirement so he is still active but not as strong as he once was due to karma in this degenerate age. Not only Did the 5th Dalai lama approve of Dorje Shugden after his mistaken views but he also composed a prayer praising his divine qualities and he the protector was later enthroned by the 7th Dalai lama as a protector of the Gelug at that time he was fairly minor as the other protectors where still fairly strong in their activity so it was not until the time that the most esteemed master Tagphu Pemavajra visited Tushita heaven to request a teaching directly from Lama Tsongkhapa and hence Je Rinpoche revealed Dorje Shugden directly from underneath his throne Symbolizing that the protector is a direct manifestation of Je Rinpoche, The transmission was given and thus Dorje Shugden became more high profile then he once was helping the great masters of our recent lineage revive the fame and pure example of the Gelug and spread it far and wide, Without this prinicple protector of Je Tsongkhapa the Dalai lama today would not have the opportunity to benefit others he would be very much dead without Dorje Shugdens safe guidance out of Tibet the exile community would not be what it is today the Dharma would not be thriving in India if This deity had not intervened. It is due directly to this manifestation of Manjushri that we all have the opportunity to practice Dharma today especially the unmistaken and pure Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa which he the Great protector is sworn to uphold. Dorje Shugden is the principle protector of this age now he spreads Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition far and wide throughout the world with our without the Dalai lama's approval.

Long after the Dalai lama is gone Dorje Shugden will still be here benefiting Je Tsongkhapa's tradition.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Actually Lama Tsongkhapa made Dorje Shugden his Principle protector, It was felt by many masters that Kalarupa had been granted his retirement so he is still active but not as strong as he once was due to karma in this degenerate age.

This is a real good one. Who put Kalarupa to retirement? How can a Buddha filled with compassion, skillful means, omniscience ever retire? I mean he isn't a bus driver! LOL.

What scriptural sources show clearly Kalarupa has retired? Please show us. 

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Long after the Dalai lama is gone Dorje Shugden will still be here benefiting Je Tsongkhapa's tradition.

Hey, long after Dalai Lama may be gone and Shugden is 'still around'. It's like Mara is still around long after Shakyamuni has been gone. 

Doesn't make mara or shugden any better than Shakyamuni and HHDL just because they are still around.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Woeser has already gone beyond the line of being a 'reporter' with a balanced view, due to her deep hatred to Beijing government and deep affiliation with Tibetan(but you need to investigate a bit more how come she and her husband Wang lixiong are not arrested after that much negative comment of  policies in Tibet for over 10 years , unlike most other dissidents in China..)

The China government is not promoting Dorje Shugden in Tibetan monasteries.   Officials keep their eye closed for locals Tibetan with HHDL' photo in their shrine during 'non-sensitive' period, do you think they will promote DS in monasteries if these monasteries don't have this tradition?

A more reasonable reading from this news is that the team may visited a Gelukpa monastery which traditionally worship DS, and they ask them keep this practice, not following HHDL's advice.  If it were like most of other Gelukpa monasteries(which don't worship DS), they will not promote it.

What Woeser hinted in her report is that the Beijing government and DS followers are gathered in line against HHDL, a very common story in India.  Don't be excited by this..

Wang, I'm not excited by this. Shugden spirit practice will never take off in Tibet again. It will decline more and more. Tibetans are more materialistic and exposed in Tibet and they want the 'good life' just like anyone else.

Tibetans in Tibet are aligned with HHDL.

[Jessie Fong]

The population of China is possible around 1.5 Billion - imagine if the whole country were to be converted to worship DS.  If this happens, China's stance against HHDL would be very strong.  Would that then force HHDL to life the ban?  Would China be that ambitious and successful?

Whether the ban gets lifted or not, everyone should be given right of freedom of religious practice.  I am sure each and everyone of us are sane enough to decide which practice suits us well.

[wang]

Tibetans in Tibet are aligned with HHDL.

Not to my observation sorry.  But as you guys defined, those dis-agreed with HHDL are 'not Tibetan', so you make your statement self-contained....

[WisdomBeing]

Wang, I'm not excited by this. Shugden spirit practice will never take off in Tibet again. It will decline more and more. Tibetans are more materialistic and exposed in Tibet and they want the 'good life' just like anyone else.

Tibetans in Tibet are aligned with HHDL.

Tibetans in Tibet may be aligned to His Holiness now, but His Holiness has been out of Tibet for more than 60 years. A whole new generation of Tibetans is growing up not knowing the Dalai Lama, and the current generation is getting older. The new generation sees Dorje Shugden in their monasteries, but they do not see the Dalai Lama. You are right, Tibetans are getting more materialistic as they adapt to a changing world. However, I disagree that Shugden practice will decline more and more in Tibet.

Dorje Shugden practice is very suitable for this era. Especially because of the materialistic society Tibetans are living in now, Shugden practice is even more relevant. On the superficial side, Dorje Shugden practice can help grant people’s wishes, however mundane they are. So his practice will attract the very people who are spiritually lacking.

Dorje Shugden will provide swift results in the early stages so that you can experience the ‘benefits’ of the practice and then be led to learn more Dharma in the end. In fact, Shugden practice will spread like wildfire because there is not only no ban against it in Tibet, but it is encouraged by the Chinese authorities.

[samayakeeper]

I live in a place where there is total religious freedom. If someone were to say bad of another person's religious belief, there would be an uproar. The practice of Buddhism is for mind transformation, among others, leading to enlightenment. But with the current trend of putting down a Buddhist practice does not augur well for Buddhism per se. It is making a mockery of the Buddhist practice and the laughing stock for the world at large. Unless there is a big pot at the end of the rainbow. If not, then why?

If anyone were to tell me to stop practicing Dorje Shugden, I would say: shove it!

[Carpenter]

Actually Lama Tsongkhapa made Dorje Shugden his Principle protector, It was felt by many masters that Kalarupa had been granted his retirement so he is still active but not as strong as he once was due to karma in this degenerate age.

This is a real good one. Who put Kalarupa to retirement? How can a Buddha filled with compassion, skillful means, omniscience ever retire? I mean he isn't a bus driver! LOL.

What scriptural sources show clearly Kalarupa has retired? Please show us. 

Shakyamuni Buddha known as the forth buddha, and the next is Maitreya Buddha, even in buddhahood, they do not stay permanent, it changes, does this mean the buddhas are not compassion? Not skillful? I would believe this statement is not true, the changes of buddhas is due to the law of impermanence, nothing stays permanent, so do buddha's teaching.

Since Buddha doesn't stay, so if protector change, I don't see any problem here. changing of the protector to suit the different generation, different time, different karma, so does this means skillful to you?

Kalarupa is a form of Manjushri, Dorje Shugden is also another wrathful form of Manjushri, since both this form are from Manjushri, do you think why like that? Manjushri has been manifested into different form to bring best benefit people from different generation, different group of people. so does this shows the compassion of the buddha? the skillful means of the buddha?