Author Topic: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy  (Read 25158 times)

hope rainbow

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2012, 02:41:51 PM »
Thank you for sharing this news. I am glad to see that the FPMT show proper reverence to Lama Osel despite him following his own path for whatever reasons he has which I am certain are valid. I especially like the picture of him on the throne despite being in lay clothes.

I must also admit I am somewhat bemused by the conversations on this thread referring to the return of the FPMT to the Dorje Shugden fold. This would be a fantastic development in the Dorje Shugden saga, but I have never read reports of Lama Osel practicing Shugden. Would anyone have any solid information to support this? I am not writing to criticize but if there is such proof, it would be another great thorn in the side of anti-Shugden faction. I would not be surprised to hear if Lama Osel did indeed uphold Shugden as his protector seeing as how Lama Yeshe was also extremely close to Shugden.

Can anyone enlighten me?

I have no clue as to if Lama Osel has received the practice of Dorje Shugden.
But I can imagine that many of Lama Yeshe's disciples must have received the practice from their root Guru: Lama Yeshe. And even if Lama Zopa is asking fro them to stop, they would continue secretly out of Guru devotion to their Root Guru. Thus I do expect that the older students of Lama Yeshe that are still active in FPMT do still practice Dorje Shugden behind closed doors, for that is exactly how I would have done in such situation.

Now if we imagine Lama Osel as having received the practice, he could be joining the group of his old students that do practice secretly, and there would be a conflict with the later comers who have not been receiving the practice and follow the advise of their Root Guru, Lama Zopa who advises not to practice (and therefore I assume does not pass on the practice neither).

But then if Lama Osel has received the practice, then he can pass it on, and the group of DS practitioners in FPMT may grow until it can be practiced openly.

This is a complex situation, there is a lot of "if", and it may take a few years to be resolved.

vajrastorm

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2012, 03:01:51 PM »
Thank you WB for these pictures showing Lama Osel giving a talk at FPMT in Italy. Whatever hopes these pictures may bring along with them, including the hope of Lama Osel taking over the reins of FPMT from Lama Zopa who is currently in frail health, or the hope of him eventually bringing back the practice of Dorje Shugden to FPMT, it is heartening to know that right now Lama Osel is not cutting himself off completely from FPMT.

Indeed, the fact that he is giving a Dharma talk from the throne and the fact that every seat in the room appears to have been taken, augur well for the future of FPMT and Lama Osel.Lama Osel in his lay clothes appears to be speaking  with great ease and confidence and rather engagingly too. The audience is very respectful and attentive as well.

kris

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2012, 04:00:22 PM »
Wow.. if I saw His picture somewhere else, I would have thought He is part of a rock ban or something :)

Yes, FPMT has given up Dorje Shugden since the ban is imposed. Not only that, I heard that they are also putting other centers (who practices Dorje Shugden) down.

I know there are groups who follow HH Dalai Lama's "instruction" to stop practicing Dorje Shugden, but many groups do not put other centers down, and don't openly discriminate Dorje Shugden practitioners. But I heard FPMT put up statements in their events and said that Dorje Shugden practitioners should not join their events.

May be they just want to be politically correct?

If Lama Osel is back, will there be hope?

Ensapa

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2012, 03:06:17 PM »
Wow.. if I saw His picture somewhere else, I would have thought He is part of a rock ban or something :)

Yes, FPMT has given up Dorje Shugden since the ban is imposed. Not only that, I heard that they are also putting other centers (who practices Dorje Shugden) down.

I know there are groups who follow HH Dalai Lama's "instruction" to stop practicing Dorje Shugden, but many groups do not put other centers down, and don't openly discriminate Dorje Shugden practitioners. But I heard FPMT put up statements in their events and said that Dorje Shugden practitioners should not join their events.

May be they just want to be politically correct?

If Lama Osel is back, will there be hope?

Based on Lama Osel's reactions and actions, it is for sure that even if he has not received the practice he still remembers who is his Dharma protector and is very dissapointed with the turn of events that happened after his passing. There are many centers, for example, Jewel Heart who gave up the practice but nobody there criticize or makes a huge deal out of the issue.

Perhaps FPMT members feel so insecure with their own practice that they have the need to put down those who do? But why? They get their politically correct teachers from their politically correct monasteries too, why not focus on them and their teachings instead of having to put down more successful centers around? The need to put down other centers shows nothing more than insecurity.

It is also interesting to note that this phenomenon does not happen on just 1-2 countries that FPMT has set foot on, but all of the centers worldwide is doing something similar. Bad management perhaps, or overzealous administrators who spread the idea to everyone because they want to be politically correct? There is always following the instructions and being overzealous and overdoing things...

Without Dorje Shugden, the Maitreya project will not manifest. This is on top of the disharmony that FPMT centers worldwide has created amongst the Buddhist communities in the country that they reside in. If everyone focuses on that project instead of whatever they are doing now then the project will definitely manifest and Lama Zopa's life will be further extended...but sadly no.

Zach

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2012, 04:23:40 PM »
Meanwhile the NKT goes from strength to strength and so do other groups that maintain Dorje Shugden as their Dharmapala, Look at all the support HHDL gives his monasteries and then look at places like Shar Gaden and Serpom which basically appear over night.

icy

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2012, 10:11:24 AM »
These are very beautiful pictures and thank you for the lovely sharing.  I love Lama Osel very much.  I have seen him grown up from a distance.  Having read and observed Lama Yeshe's life history, I believe Lama Osel would assume Lama Yeshe's unconventional and skillful method of spreading Dharma to attract the modern and sophisticated people around the world.  Given time I am confident he will come back to take over FPMT to preserve the Lama Tsongkhapa lineage.  The DS ban will be over soon and FPMT will resume DS practice.  What would be the purpose of Lama Tsongkhapa lineage preservation without DS practice?   

shugdenprotect

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2012, 02:27:58 PM »
Lama Yeshe was an unconventional Dharma master of his time and from the looks of his current incarnation, the trait of non-convention persists ? Lama Yeshe was known as the “Hippie Lama”, which I believe was a method to assimilate and relate as he was one of the pioneers who brought Dharma to the west.

When I saw the images of Lama Osel, I related immediately to Lama Yeshe’s gentle “hippie-ness”. One mind stream that has been gifted the practice of Lama Tsongkapa’s doctrine and protection of Dorje Shugden. Thus, the argument and conclusion that Lama Osel is still close to Dorje Shugden has solid ground. Nevetheless, the most suitable manner in which Dorje Shugden practice will be re-introduced to FPMT remains uncertain.

Relating to what Ensapa mentioned: both Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and Lama Osel, incarnations of the most revered Dharma masters of their time, have disrobed in honor. Would this mean that the method of turning the wheel of Dharma is changing form? I have heard in a Dharma teaching that the appearance of the 3rd jewel (the sangha community) may change during these degenerate times as Dharma penetrates new domains (where Dharma did not exist) and distractions and attachments are extremely intense. Furthermore, the previously honorable opportunity to become a sangha member has become a phenomenon that is almost shunned in modern society. Perhaps Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and Lama Osel are compassionately showing the possibility of being lay sanghas to the 21st century dharma seekers. Perhaps being exposed to samsara reduces the distance and barriers with students.

The intricacies of the recent roll out of events are beyond the ignorance of our samsara-deluded minds. Thus, as we work on developing greater understanding and wisdom, may we have the merits to have faith in our Teachers and the 3 jewels to consistently pursue our spiritual journey so that we will remain close to the Dharma until the “storm” is over.

pgdharma

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2012, 03:06:34 PM »
Great news! It's nice to see Lama Osel returning to FPMT in Italy to give a talk. Great to see him on the throne with so many people attending his talk. From the photo Lama Osel  looked so at ease and confident on the throne. With Lama Zopa's frail health , this may be a sign that Lama Osel will make a come back and eventually take the place of Lama Zopa. Will FPMT center resume Dorje Shugden practice if Lama Osel take over the reign of Lama Zopa? So for now,  FPMT centres should  stop condemning and bad mouthing DS practitioners or they will get a big slap on their face in the near future.

honeydakini

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2012, 06:42:11 PM »
First, thank you for the pictures. It is always so encouraging and uplifting to see the young tulkus, continuing the legacies and being here among the rest of us who need them so badly.

Secondly, I think it is important to say this: Almost all the replies to this thread talk predominantly about the schism and bad behaviour of FPMT. I think we have to be careful about what we are saying or how we say it. It is wrong to generalise and say that all of FPMT are this way, which can lead to wrong insinuations that Lama Zopa is encouraging this.

Yes, FPMT have given up their practice of Shugden. I hold strong that Lama Zopa himself, as their Spiritual Guide is not publicly seen or has even spoken in a condemning way against Shugden practitioners or Shugden practice. His stance (it seems) is more about respecting the instructions of the Dalai Lama by not doing the practice. But he rarely, if ever, comments about the nature of the practice or practitioners being bad, condemning them or acting in untoward ways towards them.

Yes, there have been many accounts of how FPMT or Kopan members or students have acted in unpleasant ways towards Shugdenpas. But this is never clear whether this kind of behaviour is sanctioned by their teacher and is their "official" stance. I am sure Lama Zopa, being who he is, would never allow such unkindness towards another fellow sentient being, least of all another fellow Dharma practitioner.

There are many reasons for why some Lamas have chosen not to continue the practice openly and publicly, which may not be revealed until a later time. We had a nice surprise didnt we, when we heard Samdhong say not too long ago that he has done everything because of the command of his teacher, Trijang Rinpoche (which would automatically include his denouncements of Shugden practice). This could well be the same for Lama Zopa. We will never know what instructions he may have received from his teachers, which included both Lama Yeshe and also Trijang Rinpoche.

In my humble opinion, whatever obstacles that have arisen for FPMT is not because of Lama Zopa's action or stance towards Shugden practice. As an enlightened Lama, a highly attained tulku, he may well be operating from a base far beyond what we can see now. The obstacles, as in any Dharma institution would be arising from students who are not towing the line with their teacher, in this case Lama Zopa - this includes acting unkindly towards other Shugden practitioners, as some of them are known to have done; or create schism towards and among Shugdenpas. This alone breaks the most basic of refuge vows, so of course obstacles arise.

I hope this is making sense and is clear in some way. I just think it is important to be clear that whatever obstacles may be arising is NOT "Lama Zopa's fault" but the way in which some students may be acting. It is also not a reflection of FPMT being not a good organisation, or any thoughts like that. We must remember that they are one of the largest Tibetan Buddhist organisations in the world and have been important in bringing Dharma to many. Unfortunately, a few bad apples can spoil the whole basket, but as outsiders, we too need to be careful not to fall into a trap to start badmouthing and putting them down.

Ensapa

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2012, 03:07:40 PM »
From the namtars of the various masters, it is very clear that the result of the students breaking samaya, misinterpreting their Guru's instructions and choosing worldly views over enlightened ones will ALWAYS result in a lost chance or the Guru not manifesting to them, or that they lose their chance for enlightenment. Perhaps these stories are not merely to make us have faith but are actual events that happen?

Take for instance, Rechungpa who had too much pride and thought that he knew better than Milarepa and went to a pilgrimage in India when it was more beneficial for him to actually go to his Guru's residence instead. He lost his chance to gain enlightenment in that lifetime. Naropa broke his promise to Tilopa to not engage in debate, and as a result he could only enter enlightenment during clear light.

So for small transgressions like these such great masters had to lose the opportunity for enlightenment, what about stuffing words into your Guru's mouth and acting in clearly negative ways that transgress all the Dharma texts out there and even plain logic to know that certain actions are not beneficial and are harmful? And then say and claim that it was because the Guru told you to do so? Ridiculous.

So, the current students lose their chance to see their teacher reprising his role but Lama Yeshe and Trijang Rinpoche will find other ways to benefit people, but just not their ex-students because they created obstacles for their teacher to teach them. In the end, the prize for being politically correct is none other than losing your own Guru, possibly forever as broken samaya is extremely hard to repair especially when the student themselves are not aware of it.

Klein

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2012, 05:39:46 PM »
Thank you for the pictures of Lama Osel. I feel that it's a positive sign for Lama Osel to be in FPMT after all these years. No doubt FPMT's broken samaya has caused their Guru to stay away for so long. I'm surprised that no one in FPMT highlighted this to their students. Or have they?

Perhaps Lama Osel's presence in FPMT is like dangling a carrot to his students. If they repair their broken samaya and transform, Lama Osel may return to teach. Otherwise, it's a great lost for FPMT and Lama Osel may do something else to benefit others. Only time will tell.

Ensapa

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2012, 05:17:32 AM »
Thank you for the pictures of Lama Osel. I feel that it's a positive sign for Lama Osel to be in FPMT after all these years. No doubt FPMT's broken samaya has caused their Guru to stay away for so long. I'm surprised that no one in FPMT highlighted this to their students. Or have they?

Perhaps Lama Osel's presence in FPMT is like dangling a carrot to his students. If they repair their broken samaya and transform, Lama Osel may return to teach. Otherwise, it's a great lost for FPMT and Lama Osel may do something else to benefit others. Only time will tell.

But at this point, does the FPMT students even care about their Lama and Dharma practice anymore? judging on what they are doing, I doubt that their priorities are on Dharma practice, but are on political gains and the 8 worldly concerns because if they are focused on their Dharma practice they would have stopped the political games of trying to be the authoritative Buddhist center in the country.

Its sad because in a way, even when they become the authoritative center in the land and they rake in a lot of students, most of their students wont be able to have any attainments or spiritual progress because nobody seems to be practice the Dharma or focus on their spiritual practice and these people eventually get misled. Most of them leave or end up being disillusioned by Buddhism due to the politics that they display.

This is very damaging to Buddhism as a whole and there is nothing many people can do about it, including Lama Zopa although I have heard that he has personally visited centers who are too political in nature and has been organizing hate campaigns against other centers, and personally remove the president and geshe involved in full view of the committee members...but how many centers can he visit?

Last but not least, I feel that Kopan and FPMT is large enough to go open with their Dorje Shugden practice, not to defy HHDL but because that is their core practice. But because of compassion for HHDL's students worldwide, Lama Zopa followed HHDL's instructions so that these students have a place to go. But unfortunately, some of these students tend to do take advantage of this to damage others...

dsdisciple

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2012, 08:56:12 AM »
FPMT just posted the audio of Lama Osel and Gomo Tulku lending his support...guess what the talk was about?

"Harmony Starts with the Self"

I guess it's always a big topic to go back and forth on the days of FPMT? Lots of what if scenario's for what hasn't happened etc etc...

I for one would hope that Lama Osel's advice moves hearts and minds in the FPMT organisation...with folded hands our own Guru's would never give up on us? I can't imagine that Lama Zopa and Lama Osel could give up on their students or responsibilities?  Dharma is finding a modern approach to reach modern people in the west it is understandable that Lama Osel would do this too...so watch this space.

I really enjoyed his talk...may more teachings by Lama Osel manifest in the future :D

xo

Ensapa

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2012, 11:52:59 AM »
FPMT just posted the audio of Lama Osel and Gomo Tulku lending his support...guess what the talk was about?

"Harmony Starts with the Self"

I guess it's always a big topic to go back and forth on the days of FPMT? Lots of what if scenario's for what hasn't happened etc etc...

I for one would hope that Lama Osel's advice moves hearts and minds in the FPMT organisation...with folded hands our own Guru's would never give up on us? I can't imagine that Lama Zopa and Lama Osel could give up on their students or responsibilities?  Dharma is finding a modern approach to reach modern people in the west it is understandable that Lama Osel would do this too...so watch this space.

I really enjoyed his talk...may more teachings by Lama Osel manifest in the future :D

xo

I dont believe that Lama Osel will ever give up on his students. I do believe, however, that him being able to reach out to his students would be hindered by all the negative karma that his students have generated so far especially with regards to Dorje Shugden and their focus on being the most politically correct center in the region, even if it means harming thousands of other buddhists in the way.

Lama Osel will just have to find alternative ways on spreading the Dharma, just not through FPMT anymore but through some other means, perhaps through film or through producing songs with Dharma messages in them. I cannot tell for sure what he is going to do next, but from what we can see so far it seems to be heading to that direction, especially with the collaboration with Gomo Tulku.

At the same time, it seems to be the current trend for tulkus to not go through monastic training but to benefit people as it is by just being around them as their friends or their peers although what exactly is happening, I am not too sure but based on observations on the activities of the other tulkus, it does seems to head that way. Gomo Tulku's rap seems to be targeted at today's teens and his songs do have bits and pieces of Dharma in them.

Perhaps after the ban is lifted, Lama Osel will openly declare that if FPMT wishes for him to return, they should take up the Dorje Shugden practice again and repair whatever damages that they have incurred on other Dorje Shugden practitioners as well as other Dharma centers where FPMT has said negative things against, and re-invite Lama Yeshe's students who have been practicing Dorje Shugden back to the center...

Dolce Vita

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Re: Lama Osel at FPMT in Italy
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2012, 04:04:20 AM »
I see some similarities between HH Trijang Rinpoche and Lama Osel. Both decided to disrobe most likely due to the ban. They are both known to be a strong Dorje Shugden practitioner. Their reason to disrobe mainly because the ban is issued with political motive. If they are still monks, they will be forced to take their stance on this issue which is against their vows. Their act is also to protect their students. if a student does not follow guru's instructions, has negative doubts in one's guru, they will create negative karma and instead of progressing in their spiritual path, they degenerate. Students in Kopan monastery and FMTP have clearly broken their guru samaya when they abandoned the practice given by their guru.

I believe the 'reappearance' of Lama Osel might be a sign that there would be new development on the ban that is in favour of the practitioners. Lama Osel and HH Trijang Rinpoche are great masters, I look fantastic forward to their return.