Author Topic: Making peace with Karmic Debtors  (Read 28903 times)

Ratna Shugden

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Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« on: August 02, 2010, 12:02:58 PM »
Karmic debtors, generally speaking, are vengeful spirits of sentient beings whom you have done wrong against in this present life and from all your previous lives. They can be the spirits of our enemies or even animals and insects which we may have killed in all our lives. In certain scriptures, they are even categorized into different class based on the problems that they can create for the person whom they are seeking revenge on. We may have been a murderer, mass murderer, butcher or rapist in our previous lives.We may have also driven someone to suicide. The spirits of our victims are always hanging around us waiting for a chance to have their revenge. They can create great havoc affecting our health (Both mental and physical),our family life and our relationships with every other people around us, our career and even our Dharma practice. Since we owe them a karmic debt, which they are entitled to claim from us, even our Dharma Protectors have limited rights to stop their mischief. Even if somehow, you managed to prevent them from causing harm to you in this life, they can always wait for your next life to begin and have their revenge once more, because karmic debtors stick to us like shadows life after life until we resolve our conflict with them permanently.

Hence it is very important to make peace with them. Dedicating merits from service to our Spiritual Guides and their Dharma center, our daily Dharma practices and helping the needy, are means to reduce their animosities towards us, and hopefully through our dedications to them they may be reborn in the pure environment of a Buddha, free from the sufferings of Samsara. However in certain special cases, specific things have to done in order to put at end to the cycle of vengeance.

I wish that all positive effects/influences that comes from starting this topic be dedicated to all my Karmic debtors. May they be reborn in Tushita Pure Land or at least be reborn as human endowed with all the good conditions to practice pure Buddha Dharma!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 12:05:27 PM by RatnaShugden »

triesa

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2010, 04:07:48 PM »
This is quite new to me. I would like to know which realm do these karmic debtors exist in. And when you mentioned sometimes specific thing need to be done in order to stop their vengence, what kind of specific thing are you referring to? Is it a fire puja?

I have heard people being disturbed by nagas after they visited, say a waterfall or a seaside and being disrespectful around the area like "doing their nature's call", they have upset the nagas residing there and some would follow them home and literally disturbed the person.

Are there any similarilty here?

Triesa

Big Uncle

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2010, 05:34:42 PM »
I think karmic debtors is a type of spirit that belongs to the hungry ghost realm and therefore suffer the basic sufferings of beings under that realm. It is very scary because they suffer from extreme loneliness, hunger and thirst. Their karma and current condition compels them to harm other beings - beings that they obviously have a prior karmic connection to receive the harm. Dorje Shugden's practice including the dispelling of obstacles is particularly effective to dispel harm from such beings. However if they spirit is particularly harmful, it would be good to refer to a qualified Lama for advice on this matter.

Also check out this section on removing curses and negativity for more information:- http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3930

Hope that helps...
Big Uncle

WisdomBeing

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2010, 05:57:04 PM »
this is new to me too... i would trust that Dorje Shugden's protector practice would guard me from any harm from vengeful spirits. However, since the karma would still be there, i guess i would have to purify the negative karma with these karma debtors to clear the karma.

Would it be possible to avoid the karma with these karma debtors from ripening through creating positive merits as well as our protector practice? Or are there other practices which would be suitable?

Of course if i had a guru, i could ask him which practices would be good, as Big Uncle said, but if i don't have a guru, are there any general practices i could do?

Thanks,
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

triesa

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2010, 04:15:01 PM »
I have heard from a friend that in her center, there is this young man who had offended a naga spirit when he was throwing rocks around a waterfall during his hoilday trip. The naga spirit then followed him and was constantly talking to him after the trip. It disturbed him so much that he was not sleeping and becoming very paranoid. He got an advice from his friend's Guru that he should do a Migtsema(Tsongkhapa mantra) retreat. I heard from his friend that when he was chanting in the center, his voice would suddenly changed into a very deep, coarse and heavy tone (like a spirit talking) chanting mitgsema too.

So I think yes, we can generate merits for ourselves as well as for those beings who may follow or be attached to us to move on. As long as we generate a good motivation towards these beings, with no intention to harm them, eventually they will move on to a better realm of existence.

But I do strongly believe our daily protector Dorje Shugden practice will be a great way to prevent us from attracting these spirits. 

Cheers,
Triesa


honeydakini

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2010, 04:40:59 PM »
Yes, the Buddhas will always be compassionate in wanting to help us and relieve our sufferings, but it is our own karma that “allows” us to be harmed by spirits… or by anything else for that matter. If car accidents, divorce and simple arguments can happen to us, so can spirit disturbances as they are all just manifestations of our karma.

From what I understand, we can avert this karma from manifesting to its full (harmful) potential by purification practices. Also by prayers to the Dharma Protectors who can help to alleviate the impact of this karma from manifesting fully. There are also specific pujas that can be done – e.g. Gyabshi, Sheningdodo, Palden Lhamo, Kalarupa – to clear specific obstacles. These are usually advised by a qualified Lama, through divination or directly from the Protector who speaks through an oracle. 

My Lama has explained to us that these spirits are suffering very greatly in their realm and that ultimately, the best way to stop spirits from disturbing us is to develop a heart of great compassion and skilfulness. The High lamas are not disturbed by spirits; instead, they return their “harm” with kindness, make them some offerings and help to relieve their sufferings in whatever way they can. The best way of “subduing” negativity is, like with everything else, Bodhicitta. This is all the more reason for us to practice and gain attainments. We protect ourselves from these disturbances and at the same time, we are able to help relieve some of the sufferings of these other beings.

shugdenprotect

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 05:03:52 PM »
The power of our karma is always amazing. It is scary that no one can “save” s from our own karma. However, it is also very empowering to know that we are in complete control of our karma: it is the consequence of our own actions of body, speech and mind.

I think karmic debtors can also come in the form of beings in the human realm. Sometimes, there are people who will come to harm you and sometimes, there are people who help you out although you do not know them. Is this angle of looking at this subject applicable?

Vajraprotector

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2010, 10:39:06 AM »
My Lama has explained to us that these spirits are suffering very greatly in their realm and that ultimately, the best way to stop spirits from disturbing us is to develop a heart of great compassion and skilfulness. The High lamas are not disturbed by spirits; instead, they return their “harm” with kindness, make them some offerings and help to relieve their sufferings in whatever way they can. The best way of “subduing” negativity is, like with everything else, Bodhicitta. This is all the more reason for us to practice and gain attainments. We protect ourselves from these disturbances and at the same time, we are able to help relieve some of the sufferings of these other beings.


I agree with this point fully. I had an ex-colleague who resides in Singapore (one of the HDB flat) and she found there was
something else living there when she moved in. She consulted a Chinese master, and even the Chinese master said it's good that she recites mantra and Heart Sutra and dedicate to the spirits.

After following through the instruction of the Chinese master, the spirits went away (according to her) and she was happy she did it "the right way", because most of the time, the normal folks would go seek a Taoist master to do exorcism rituals or counter the spirit with black magic etc., which usually made it worse.

DSFriend

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 12:13:59 AM »
Since we are still in samsara, driven by karma and indebted so many beings, do we not also fall into this category of karmic debtors?  Purification practices and creation of merits are the ways I know how that we can cut the causes of being harmed by other karmic debtors as well as dedicating merits generated to relieve sufferings.

kurava

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2010, 02:55:53 AM »
Yes Ratna Shugden has a point there.

If we believe we have countless past lives, we must have created countless negative causes and thus made countless karmic debts. Since the Law of Karma is infallible, it’s definite that when the right conditions ripen we will be caught up by our Karmic Debtors to” pay up”.

If we have the good fortune to meet our Dharma Protectors in this life, they can clear obstacles, hold back karmic debts for us to engage in spiritual practice such as accumulation of merits and purification of negative karma. If we do not engage in these practices sincerely, the Protectors cannot help us indefinitely from life after life. Even our kind Guru can’t hook us from falling into the 3 lower realms if we don’t do our part.

In the purification practice of 35 Confession Buddhas, we are to use the 4 powers in regards to all the negative actions ( from the most hideous to the  most minor) we have committed , “ordered others to engage in them, and have rejoiced in their engaging in them”…..so we have to do our part if we want to be free from “debts”.

icy

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2010, 08:56:01 AM »
For our Dharma practice to be effective and for our Lord Shugden to effectively protect us from karmic debtors, we have to uphold our vows and our commitments to our Guru and not to transgress them. I read in Trijang Rinpoche's biography that no matter how his enemies wanted to harm him because of their jealousy, they cannot succeed and died on their own accord because Trijang Rinpoche had zero causes of harm for it to happen on him.  As well as the Protector is always with him.

triesa

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2010, 03:34:29 PM »
Understanding now that due to countless lives that we have gone through and countless beings whom we have indebted to, the best for us to do in this life time, I reckon, is to continuously to do purification practices and collect as much merits as possible. In any event, should environmental circumstances arise that the negative karmic seed sprouts, I do strongly believe my commitment to Dorje Shugden's practice and holding my refufe vows will lessen the effect of harm.

Big Uncle

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2010, 05:34:52 AM »
Actually karmic debtors may not be just spirits that harm us, it can be loved ones that disappoint us again and again, situations that we are stuck in where we lose something or people out to get us all the time. For most people, the biggest karmic debtor we can have these days is a loveless marriage or a marriage that takes from us emotionally all the times.

We can opt out but we are just stuck or worse of all with children that we are responsible for. Children can be our second biggest karmic debtor as they may grow up to be just takers and losers. No matter what the situation, we are constantly reminded to practice the Dharma with our live's situation. What better way to motivate spiritually than to look deeper at our current situation.

thor

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2010, 07:26:48 PM »
Think of how much harm we have done to someone in the past in order for them to return as a spirit whose sole purpose is the wreak vengeance upon us. Likewise, think of how much anger they are holding on to, that they are reborn as such a spirit. Very scary when you think about it carefully.

Reading this thread reminds me strongly of how important it is for me to forgive, let go of anger and quickly collect a tremendous amount of merits to purify my negative karma. And I need to do it also for those who have a negative perception of me, because I would not want them to hold on to their anger, for my own sake and for theirs too!

This really is the Wheel of Sharp Weapons .... reading all this on the forum, i am gonna go read that text again.

Ratna Shugden

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Re: Making peace with Karmic Debtors
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2011, 05:01:47 AM »
Sorry for not making much post to this topic after starting this thread, because this topic doesn't seem to generate much response although I consider it to be of much importance to everyone. I thank everyone who have read this thread and offered their own comments on this topic.

Personally, I do not believe that the Triple Gem including our Dharma Protector will protect us from our Karmic debtors in the same way as a detail of bodyguards will protect a politician from assassins or like a bomb shelter. If sentient beings can be protected from the collective vengeance of their Karmic debtors simply by seeking the refuge of the Triple Gem, including our Yidam & Dorje Shugden, then sentient beings will be free to harm others to satisfy their own selfish ambitions without fear of vengeance. It's a very simple logic, if you stole something from someone, destroyed their property or killed their love one, they have the right to demand compensation and justice.

Instead the Buddha Dharma educates us on the Law of Cause-&-Effect, Karma. When you hurt others, they will hurt you back. We have to accept the fact that all forms of unhappiness which we have experienced in our lives is the result of having done the same to others in the past., and we definitely have to pay for what we have done, one way or the other. When our karmic debtors comes to us in this life to make their claims (by creating problems and harm) on us, in the form of disagreeable people, spirits or demons, we feel that we are the 'victims' and they are the 'bad guys', we should be protected and they should be punished. We feel this way because we have no memory of the all the wrongs which we have done in our previous lifetimes. If we can remember, we will definitely feel that his or her actions against us is justifiable.

I believe the intention of the Triple Gem is to inspire us to understand this and accept the fact that we have to pay for what we have done, and inspire us to take the appropriate actions to make up for all our past wrongs.

Yidams and Dharma protectors like Dorje Shugden will not destroy our Karmic Debtors. Why? Since they are emanations of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, they definitely possess Bodhichitta which means they cherish all sentient beings like their only child. Since that's the case, we can't request them to attack someone just because they have been causing problems for us, in fact it is against the Dharma to make request to Yidam or Dharma Protectors to attack anyone.  If the person is indeed harmed after making such a request, I am sure it's not your Yidam who responded to your request. Simple logic, your friend owe you some money, when you ask him to repay his loan, he denies this and attacks you, would you be pissed?

The correct way to put an end to the feud between all our Karmic debtors and ourselves is to make requests to  our Guru, Yidam and Dharma Protector to inspire us to take the appropriate actions to pay off our debts to each and every individual karmic debtor from all our previous lifetimes, as much as possible now especially since we practicing the Buddha Dharma in this life.

We should dedicate the merits from our Dharma practice to our Karmic debtors as much as possible. By the merit of such dedications, may they regain the happiness which we had robbed them of in all our past existences. We can't take back what we have done, but we can now try to return back the happiness which we have taken from them as much as possible, out of sincere remorse.

One point of interest, In Southeast Asian countries, it is known that Buddhist have pujas and dedicate the merits to their Karmic debtors during the Ullambana Festival, which doesn't seem to be celebrated here in the West although this festival is based on the Ullambana Sutra.