dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ratna Shugden on August 02, 2010, 12:02:58 PM
-
Karmic debtors, generally speaking, are vengeful spirits of sentient beings whom you have done wrong against in this present life and from all your previous lives. They can be the spirits of our enemies or even animals and insects which we may have killed in all our lives. In certain scriptures, they are even categorized into different class based on the problems that they can create for the person whom they are seeking revenge on. We may have been a murderer, mass murderer, butcher or rapist in our previous lives.We may have also driven someone to suicide. The spirits of our victims are always hanging around us waiting for a chance to have their revenge. They can create great havoc affecting our health (Both mental and physical),our family life and our relationships with every other people around us, our career and even our Dharma practice. Since we owe them a karmic debt, which they are entitled to claim from us, even our Dharma Protectors have limited rights to stop their mischief. Even if somehow, you managed to prevent them from causing harm to you in this life, they can always wait for your next life to begin and have their revenge once more, because karmic debtors stick to us like shadows life after life until we resolve our conflict with them permanently.
Hence it is very important to make peace with them. Dedicating merits from service to our Spiritual Guides and their Dharma center, our daily Dharma practices and helping the needy, are means to reduce their animosities towards us, and hopefully through our dedications to them they may be reborn in the pure environment of a Buddha, free from the sufferings of Samsara. However in certain special cases, specific things have to done in order to put at end to the cycle of vengeance.
I wish that all positive effects/influences that comes from starting this topic be dedicated to all my Karmic debtors. May they be reborn in Tushita Pure Land or at least be reborn as human endowed with all the good conditions to practice pure Buddha Dharma!
-
This is quite new to me. I would like to know which realm do these karmic debtors exist in. And when you mentioned sometimes specific thing need to be done in order to stop their vengence, what kind of specific thing are you referring to? Is it a fire puja?
I have heard people being disturbed by nagas after they visited, say a waterfall or a seaside and being disrespectful around the area like "doing their nature's call", they have upset the nagas residing there and some would follow them home and literally disturbed the person.
Are there any similarilty here?
Triesa
-
I think karmic debtors is a type of spirit that belongs to the hungry ghost realm and therefore suffer the basic sufferings of beings under that realm. It is very scary because they suffer from extreme loneliness, hunger and thirst. Their karma and current condition compels them to harm other beings - beings that they obviously have a prior karmic connection to receive the harm. Dorje Shugden's practice including the dispelling of obstacles is particularly effective to dispel harm from such beings. However if they spirit is particularly harmful, it would be good to refer to a qualified Lama for advice on this matter.
Also check out this section on removing curses and negativity for more information:- http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3930 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3930)
Hope that helps...
Big Uncle
-
this is new to me too... i would trust that Dorje Shugden's protector practice would guard me from any harm from vengeful spirits. However, since the karma would still be there, i guess i would have to purify the negative karma with these karma debtors to clear the karma.
Would it be possible to avoid the karma with these karma debtors from ripening through creating positive merits as well as our protector practice? Or are there other practices which would be suitable?
Of course if i had a guru, i could ask him which practices would be good, as Big Uncle said, but if i don't have a guru, are there any general practices i could do?
Thanks,
-
I have heard from a friend that in her center, there is this young man who had offended a naga spirit when he was throwing rocks around a waterfall during his hoilday trip. The naga spirit then followed him and was constantly talking to him after the trip. It disturbed him so much that he was not sleeping and becoming very paranoid. He got an advice from his friend's Guru that he should do a Migtsema(Tsongkhapa mantra) retreat. I heard from his friend that when he was chanting in the center, his voice would suddenly changed into a very deep, coarse and heavy tone (like a spirit talking) chanting mitgsema too.
So I think yes, we can generate merits for ourselves as well as for those beings who may follow or be attached to us to move on. As long as we generate a good motivation towards these beings, with no intention to harm them, eventually they will move on to a better realm of existence.
But I do strongly believe our daily protector Dorje Shugden practice will be a great way to prevent us from attracting these spirits.
Cheers,
Triesa
-
Yes, the Buddhas will always be compassionate in wanting to help us and relieve our sufferings, but it is our own karma that “allows” us to be harmed by spirits… or by anything else for that matter. If car accidents, divorce and simple arguments can happen to us, so can spirit disturbances as they are all just manifestations of our karma.
From what I understand, we can avert this karma from manifesting to its full (harmful) potential by purification practices. Also by prayers to the Dharma Protectors who can help to alleviate the impact of this karma from manifesting fully. There are also specific pujas that can be done – e.g. Gyabshi, Sheningdodo, Palden Lhamo, Kalarupa – to clear specific obstacles. These are usually advised by a qualified Lama, through divination or directly from the Protector who speaks through an oracle.
My Lama has explained to us that these spirits are suffering very greatly in their realm and that ultimately, the best way to stop spirits from disturbing us is to develop a heart of great compassion and skilfulness. The High lamas are not disturbed by spirits; instead, they return their “harm” with kindness, make them some offerings and help to relieve their sufferings in whatever way they can. The best way of “subduing” negativity is, like with everything else, Bodhicitta. This is all the more reason for us to practice and gain attainments. We protect ourselves from these disturbances and at the same time, we are able to help relieve some of the sufferings of these other beings.
-
The power of our karma is always amazing. It is scary that no one can “save” s from our own karma. However, it is also very empowering to know that we are in complete control of our karma: it is the consequence of our own actions of body, speech and mind.
I think karmic debtors can also come in the form of beings in the human realm. Sometimes, there are people who will come to harm you and sometimes, there are people who help you out although you do not know them. Is this angle of looking at this subject applicable?
-
My Lama has explained to us that these spirits are suffering very greatly in their realm and that ultimately, the best way to stop spirits from disturbing us is to develop a heart of great compassion and skilfulness. The High lamas are not disturbed by spirits; instead, they return their “harm” with kindness, make them some offerings and help to relieve their sufferings in whatever way they can. The best way of “subduing” negativity is, like with everything else, Bodhicitta. This is all the more reason for us to practice and gain attainments. We protect ourselves from these disturbances and at the same time, we are able to help relieve some of the sufferings of these other beings.
I agree with this point fully. I had an ex-colleague who resides in Singapore (one of the HDB flat) and she found there was
something else living there when she moved in. She consulted a Chinese master, and even the Chinese master said it's good that she recites mantra and Heart Sutra and dedicate to the spirits.
After following through the instruction of the Chinese master, the spirits went away (according to her) and she was happy she did it "the right way", because most of the time, the normal folks would go seek a Taoist master to do exorcism rituals or counter the spirit with black magic etc., which usually made it worse.
-
Since we are still in samsara, driven by karma and indebted so many beings, do we not also fall into this category of karmic debtors? Purification practices and creation of merits are the ways I know how that we can cut the causes of being harmed by other karmic debtors as well as dedicating merits generated to relieve sufferings.
-
Yes Ratna Shugden has a point there.
If we believe we have countless past lives, we must have created countless negative causes and thus made countless karmic debts. Since the Law of Karma is infallible, it’s definite that when the right conditions ripen we will be caught up by our Karmic Debtors to” pay up”.
If we have the good fortune to meet our Dharma Protectors in this life, they can clear obstacles, hold back karmic debts for us to engage in spiritual practice such as accumulation of merits and purification of negative karma. If we do not engage in these practices sincerely, the Protectors cannot help us indefinitely from life after life. Even our kind Guru can’t hook us from falling into the 3 lower realms if we don’t do our part.
In the purification practice of 35 Confession Buddhas, we are to use the 4 powers in regards to all the negative actions ( from the most hideous to the most minor) we have committed , “ordered others to engage in them, and have rejoiced in their engaging in them”…..so we have to do our part if we want to be free from “debts”.
-
For our Dharma practice to be effective and for our Lord Shugden to effectively protect us from karmic debtors, we have to uphold our vows and our commitments to our Guru and not to transgress them. I read in Trijang Rinpoche's biography that no matter how his enemies wanted to harm him because of their jealousy, they cannot succeed and died on their own accord because Trijang Rinpoche had zero causes of harm for it to happen on him. As well as the Protector is always with him.
-
Understanding now that due to countless lives that we have gone through and countless beings whom we have indebted to, the best for us to do in this life time, I reckon, is to continuously to do purification practices and collect as much merits as possible. In any event, should environmental circumstances arise that the negative karmic seed sprouts, I do strongly believe my commitment to Dorje Shugden's practice and holding my refufe vows will lessen the effect of harm.
-
Actually karmic debtors may not be just spirits that harm us, it can be loved ones that disappoint us again and again, situations that we are stuck in where we lose something or people out to get us all the time. For most people, the biggest karmic debtor we can have these days is a loveless marriage or a marriage that takes from us emotionally all the times.
We can opt out but we are just stuck or worse of all with children that we are responsible for. Children can be our second biggest karmic debtor as they may grow up to be just takers and losers. No matter what the situation, we are constantly reminded to practice the Dharma with our live's situation. What better way to motivate spiritually than to look deeper at our current situation.
-
Think of how much harm we have done to someone in the past in order for them to return as a spirit whose sole purpose is the wreak vengeance upon us. Likewise, think of how much anger they are holding on to, that they are reborn as such a spirit. Very scary when you think about it carefully.
Reading this thread reminds me strongly of how important it is for me to forgive, let go of anger and quickly collect a tremendous amount of merits to purify my negative karma. And I need to do it also for those who have a negative perception of me, because I would not want them to hold on to their anger, for my own sake and for theirs too!
This really is the Wheel of Sharp Weapons .... reading all this on the forum, i am gonna go read that text again.
-
Sorry for not making much post to this topic after starting this thread, because this topic doesn't seem to generate much response although I consider it to be of much importance to everyone. I thank everyone who have read this thread and offered their own comments on this topic.
Personally, I do not believe that the Triple Gem including our Dharma Protector will protect us from our Karmic debtors in the same way as a detail of bodyguards will protect a politician from assassins or like a bomb shelter. If sentient beings can be protected from the collective vengeance of their Karmic debtors simply by seeking the refuge of the Triple Gem, including our Yidam & Dorje Shugden, then sentient beings will be free to harm others to satisfy their own selfish ambitions without fear of vengeance. It's a very simple logic, if you stole something from someone, destroyed their property or killed their love one, they have the right to demand compensation and justice.
Instead the Buddha Dharma educates us on the Law of Cause-&-Effect, Karma. When you hurt others, they will hurt you back. We have to accept the fact that all forms of unhappiness which we have experienced in our lives is the result of having done the same to others in the past., and we definitely have to pay for what we have done, one way or the other. When our karmic debtors comes to us in this life to make their claims (by creating problems and harm) on us, in the form of disagreeable people, spirits or demons, we feel that we are the 'victims' and they are the 'bad guys', we should be protected and they should be punished. We feel this way because we have no memory of the all the wrongs which we have done in our previous lifetimes. If we can remember, we will definitely feel that his or her actions against us is justifiable.
I believe the intention of the Triple Gem is to inspire us to understand this and accept the fact that we have to pay for what we have done, and inspire us to take the appropriate actions to make up for all our past wrongs.
Yidams and Dharma protectors like Dorje Shugden will not destroy our Karmic Debtors. Why? Since they are emanations of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, they definitely possess Bodhichitta which means they cherish all sentient beings like their only child. Since that's the case, we can't request them to attack someone just because they have been causing problems for us, in fact it is against the Dharma to make request to Yidam or Dharma Protectors to attack anyone. If the person is indeed harmed after making such a request, I am sure it's not your Yidam who responded to your request. Simple logic, your friend owe you some money, when you ask him to repay his loan, he denies this and attacks you, would you be pissed?
The correct way to put an end to the feud between all our Karmic debtors and ourselves is to make requests to our Guru, Yidam and Dharma Protector to inspire us to take the appropriate actions to pay off our debts to each and every individual karmic debtor from all our previous lifetimes, as much as possible now especially since we practicing the Buddha Dharma in this life.
We should dedicate the merits from our Dharma practice to our Karmic debtors as much as possible. By the merit of such dedications, may they regain the happiness which we had robbed them of in all our past existences. We can't take back what we have done, but we can now try to return back the happiness which we have taken from them as much as possible, out of sincere remorse.
One point of interest, In Southeast Asian countries, it is known that Buddhist have pujas and dedicate the merits to their Karmic debtors during the Ullambana Festival, which doesn't seem to be celebrated here in the West although this festival is based on the Ullambana Sutra.
-
Sorry for not making much post to this topic after starting this thread, because this topic doesn't seem to generate much response although I consider it to be of much importance to everyone. I thank everyone who have read this thread and offered their own comments on this topic.
Personally, I do not believe that the Triple Gem including our Dharma Protector will protect us from our Karmic debtors in the same way as a detail of bodyguards will protect a politician from assassins or like a bomb shelter. If sentient beings can be protected from the collective vengeance of their Karmic debtors simply by seeking the refuge of the Triple Gem, including our Yidam & Dorje Shugden, then sentient beings will be free to harm others to satisfy their own selfish ambitions without fear of vengeance. It's a very simple logic, if you stole something from someone, destroyed their property or killed their love one, they have the right to demand compensation and justice.
Instead the Buddha Dharma educates us on the Law of Cause-&-Effect, Karma. When you hurt others, they will hurt you back. We have to accept the fact that all forms of unhappiness which we have experienced in our lives is the result of having done the same to others in the past., and we definitely have to pay for what we have done, one way or the other. When our karmic debtors comes to us in this life to make their claims (by creating problems and harm) on us, in the form of disagreeable people, spirits or demons, we feel that we are the 'victims' and they are the 'bad guys', we should be protected and they should be punished. We feel this way because we have no memory of the all the wrongs which we have done in our previous lifetimes. If we can remember, we will definitely feel that his or her actions against us is justifiable.
I believe the intention of the Triple Gem is to inspire us to understand this and accept the fact that we have to pay for what we have done, and inspire us to take the appropriate actions to make up for all our past wrongs.
Yidams and Dharma protectors like Dorje Shugden will not destroy our Karmic Debtors. Why? Since they are emanations of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, they definitely possess Bodhichitta which means they cherish all sentient beings like their only child. Since that's the case, we can't request them to attack someone just because they have been causing problems for us, in fact it is against the Dharma to make request to Yidam or Dharma Protectors to attack anyone. If the person is indeed harmed after making such a request, I am sure it's not your Yidam who responded to your request. Simple logic, your friend owe you some money, when you ask him to repay his loan, he denies this and attacks you, would you be pissed?
The correct way to put an end to the feud between all our Karmic debtors and ourselves is to make requests to our Guru, Yidam and Dharma Protector to inspire us to take the appropriate actions to pay off our debts to each and every individual karmic debtor from all our previous lifetimes, as much as possible now especially since we practicing the Buddha Dharma in this life.
We should dedicate the merits from our Dharma practice to our Karmic debtors as much as possible. By the merit of such dedications, may they regain the happiness which we had robbed them of in all our past existences. We can't take back what we have done, but we can now try to return back the happiness which we have taken from them as much as possible, out of sincere remorse.
One point of interest, In Southeast Asian countries, it is known that Buddhist have pujas and dedicate the merits to their Karmic debtors during the Ullambana Festival, which doesn't seem to be celebrated here in the West although this festival is based on the Ullambana Sutra.
Dear Ratna Shugden,
Thank you for posting. Please post more as each question encourages people to talk and discuss. However, I do not fully agree with your statement. I will explain so please bear with me. The three jewels- Buddha, Dharma and Sangha can grant us protection if we take sincere refuge under them. This refuge must be realized through propitiation, understanding the nature of refuge and invoking the 3 Jewels to grant protection. If the 3 Jewels cannot grant protection, then all of us cannot change the direction of our lives and what's the point of practicing the Dharma.
You are right that if we can see into our past lives, we would find that whatever 'retribution' we had experienced is justifiable. However, you may want to think it this way as well, is it justifiable to continue the cycle. Our so called debtors have had their vengeance but that means they become our karmic debtors and in this life or the next, the cycle of anger and retribution continues. The scary part is that it never ends! So is revenge and retribution really justifiable?
It is pointless to destroy and hurt our karmic debtors, it would be better to let go and practice the Dharma. Through our exploration of the Dharma, contemplation of its essential teachings and collection of sufficient merit to apply these great teachings, we transform, develop perseverance, courage and strength to take responsibility of our actions that brought about the anger of our enemies. The best practice of patience is to respond harm with benefit and kindness. If we cannot do that, the very least we can do is not harm them in return. We don't want to enter into another vicious cycle of retribution.
I do like the dedication of merits and that is very much in line with the Mahayana spirit of doing what we can to benefit all beings, even our enemies....
-
Every sentient being is responsible for his own actions, this is the Law of Cause-&-Effect, Karma. If performed virtuous deeds with virtuous intentions, you will be rewarded with happiness in future, in this life or in future existences, in proportion to impact of your virtuous deeds which some call the ripple-effect or butterfly-effect, and vice-versa for non-virtuous deeds. In this sense, all sentient beings in Samsara have their own 'Karma Balance Sheet', virtuous deeds are like 'assets' and non-virtuous deeds are like 'liabilities'. It is up to us to accumulate merit and purify our negative karma as much as possible while we are still alive.
Buddhas, who have already achieved perfection in Bodhichitta, cherish each and every sentient being in Samsara like his one and only child. Yet despite this perfect love, which is way more superior than worldly love, and their spiritual powers, the Buddha is not the creator of the principle of Karma, nor can He exert any form of influence over it, this truth has been illustrated in many stories of the Dharma. Hence He can't stop us from experiencing the results of our non-virtuous deeds which we have created for ourselves, if he can do that all Buddhist will not experience any form of suffering in our lives.
What He can do is to educate sentient beings of Samsara the principle of karma, so that sentient beings will not be ignorant of it and bear this principle in mind. After understanding this principle they will take care in all deeds of body, speech and mind. This 'purifies' the deeds of body, speech and mind of ignorance about Karma.
Whatever that's good, carry on to do more and improve it
Whatever that's good which you have not done, start!
Whatever evil that has been done cannot be undone, but try not to do it again and make things worse
Whatever evil which you have never done before, please don't start!
If sentient beings can believe and uphold this, then this will be the start of the said 'Protection of the Triple Gem', because we are putting in the action the advise which we have received from Buddha himself.
A simple analogy would be this:It's like as if we are always in debt, having no savings, and not having enough money to fulfill our dreams. Then a financially savvy friends comes along and gives you advise on how to control your spending, starting a savings account and getting a better-paid job. After following his advice, our financial life change for the better.
If you continue to do and improve on the virtuous deeds which you are current engaging in, your merit will grow and so is the prospects of enjoying happiness in future. Hence you are 'protected' from the fate of not having accumulated enough merits for happiness in future.
If you start perform virtuous deeds which you have seen others do and haven't done so yourself, you are 'protected' from the misery of missing out on the kind of happiness which the deed can bring for you.
If start apply the four-opponent powers of purification in all your non-virtuous deeds and start making up for your past wrongs, you are 'protected' from consequence of continuing your mistakes, making old enemies(karmic debtors) having reasons to hate you even more and become more determine to harm you, and making new enemies. You may even convert an enemy into a friend in this process.
If you never committed a particular non-virtuous deeds, you are 'protected' from experiencing the results. This is because the teachings on Karma states that you cannot experience the result of a deed which you have never committed, virtuous or non-virtuous.
It is only when we follow the advise given by the Buddha, then we are protected. If we don't and continue to do as we please, selfishly harming others for our own benefit, faith alone cannot save anyone. It is just like having faith in a doctor and not taking the medication which he had prescribed for our illness, we will ever be cured.
I do understand from sources that demons and evil spirits can stand being in the presence of blessed statues or thangkhas of Buddhas/Bodhisattvas/Dharmapalas (Supramundane ones like Dorje Shugden, and righteous heavenly beings), High Lama (or even an ordinary monk who has been upholding his percepts purely), or if you are having on your persons a sacred object. However this does not solve the problem, because we yet to do anything to resolve our differences with our Karmic debtors, that means they still hate us and wants revenge! To me, such protections serves to buy us some time to figure out what to do and do it. It is like in our lives, some people may hate us due to some reasons, but can't touch us because we are in an advantageous position. I am sure they are going to focus the first chance they get when what stops them is gone, even temporarily. Hence we should desire a long term solution to the problem.
I have done much evil in the past when I was less learned in the Dharma. Now I am trying to understand more and practice whenever I can. I am trying hard not to repeat my past mistakes as much as possible. Yet my past still comes back and haunt me every now and then. I have great faith in the Triple Gem, I do my best to learn as much as possible and integrate them into my life, but my life is not problem-free despite being able to write this. However if I hadn't follow Buddha's advice, it would have been much worse. Even for the ordained, they have to deal with their karmic debtors too, although it is easier and faster for them to repay their karmic debtors since they are under the daily tutelage of their Gurus on this matter, and their daily lives are occupied with Dharma practices ( not like us,we have to find time to do Dharma practice), the merits from which can be dedicated to Karmic debtors.
By the way, from my own experience, you must specifically dedicate merit to your karmic debtors in order to see results, you need to specifically mention this when you are dedicating merits. I used to think that after engaging in so much Dharma practice and doing many charitable deeds, my karmic debts are automatically clear even without consciously knowing or thinking about it. Then to my horror, I realized that it doesn't work this way.It is just like if you are in a good profession and earning a high income, but you have forgotten that you owe a friend some money, and he is still angrily waiting for it.
Being able to learn and apply the Dharma is the real protection.
-
Interesting question posed here.
Now I am human, but I am sure there have been many beings who have harmed me in the past and I am their Karmic Debtors , so does that mean when I have another spirit rebirth I will wait to harm those who have harmed me from before ?
I mean since everything is in a flux, my role as a Karmic Debtor can change, I may not ever become an angry karmic debtor after this that is certainly a possibility. Also the people I have harmed well they could be enlightened by the time I become a karmic Debtor/spirit or demon again, then I'd still have no way of harming them as spirits definitely cannot harm enlightened beings.
-
After understanding the Law of Cause-&-Effect, Karma, we realized that all the pain and suffering which we are experiencing in the various aspects of our lives, including the difficulties which we are facing in our Dharma practice, are all the consequences from creating the same misery in other sentient beings' lives in all our previous existences and in this life.
If we are angry with for our enemies, who are in reality our Karmic Debtors, for what they have done to us and want to seek revenge, we will in turn become their karmic debtor and this vicious cycle continues.
If we accept all the suffering which they have inflicted upon us as our deserving retribution, we are putting an end to this vicious cycle.
Once a deed has been done, virtuous or non-virtuous, each deed will definitely produce it's own result, which will appear when causes-&-conditions are conducive. It's like when you plant a seed into the soil, when there's enough minerals, water and sunlight, the seed will grow into a plant. The results of all our actions don't manifest at the same time, sometimes in this life or only in our future lives. The results of both a virtuous action and a non-virtuous action can happen at the same time.Each of our karmic debtor appear only at the point of our lives which by the effect of our bad karma created a cause for them to create obstacles for us at that moment of our lives.
Everything is in a flux, but every event that takes place in this flux is the result of our own actions, each event is not a random encounter which occurs without us first creating a cause for it to happen.
Achieving liberation from Samsara and achieving Enlightenment takes a long time, often many lifetimes. To minimize our suffering while in Samsara, we should reconcile our differences with our karmic debtors. The willingness to take responsibility for our own actions, even if they are done in our previous lives, is also a cause for liberation if you do it for the sake of liberation or Bodhichitta.
-
Dear Ratna Shugden... thanks for bringing this interesting post back.
I agree that no Buddha can wipe away our "sin" / karma... no one can really save us/protect us but our own selves. But my Lama has explained what the protector can do, if we have clean samaya, if we sincerely regret and remorse and engaged in purification practices... the bad karma one is to experience dur to the wrongs we have done in the past... will actually be brought forward for us to experience it while we are still able to withstand it. And how the Dharma Protectors or Dorje Shugden protect us is by shielding us from the danger where by if not could cost our lives.
For example; this is base on my own experience... there was a time I was asked to engaged in a retreat by my Guru, and one day my Guru decided to make a black tea offering to DS. At that time I had no idea why the black tea was done, i thought it was perhaps for me to have a successful retreat. So next day, I met with a huge accident that really shock the life out of me, it was my first big accident and it could have cost me my life. I suffered the effects of fear and trauma but I was fine and escaped it without a single scratch on me.
I went to see my Guru immediately and my Guru advised me to rejoice and not be sad/scared because apparently protector has helped me brought fwd my negative karma for me to experience and yet I was also protected at the same time. The experience of fear/trauma I had was the considered the karma exhausted, but the protection under my Guru's blessings and protector was that I am still alive today.
So yes in a sense we will need to experience our karma -ve and +ve, but at the same time if we are fortunate to have a Guru and a Protector, they will definitely be there to help us by making our experience a much harsher one where by if could have been much worst if we did not have Them.
Our aim is to purify as much as we can this life, hence it may be be go through hardships, difficulties now, do Dharma work, purification practices and no matter what obstacles come our way, we accept as our negative karma ripening and while our bodies are still fit, we experience it now...and if we are fortunate to be in the Dharma, or working in Dharma and having a spiritual guide, the conditions and support will be there to help us get through it. Hence doing any form of Dharma work, especially those we find difficult, is a great way to purify ones' negative karma...if we choose to see it that way, it will be that way.
This is what I understand through my experience about karmic debts, how we can purify them and how our Guru and Protector help us.
-
Dear Ratna Shugden... thanks for bringing this interesting post back.
I agree that no Buddha can wipe away our "sin" / karma... no one can really save us/protect us but our own selves. But my Lama has explained what the protector can do, if we have clean samaya, if we sincerely regret and remorse and engaged in purification practices... the bad karma one is to experience dur to the wrongs we have done in the past... will actually be brought forward for us to experience it while we are still able to withstand it. And how the Dharma Protectors or Dorje Shugden protect us is by shielding us from the danger where by if not could cost our lives.
I wish to point our that the influence of our Karmic Debtors pervades into every aspect of our lives, including our Dharma Practice.
They are able to cause one to:
1) Lose faith in the Buddha Dharma in general
2) Lose faith in the lineage
3) Lose faith in your Root Guru and other spiritual guides
4) Lose faith in your Yidam
5) Lose faith in your Dharma Protector, like the many who have chosen to denounce Dorje Shugden
6) break your percepts and tantric commitments
7) forget one's wrong doings
8) feel no remorse for wrong-doings
9) have doubts about purification practice or create disturbances during the session
10) stop you from attending Dharma events and teachings
The extent of blessing which one will receive from his Guru and Protector will be dependent on the severity of obstructions faced in the above. Hence we still need to make peace with our Karmic Debtors to reduce the above obstacles gradually, so that we will receive more support from our Guru and Protector to face obstructions from our Karmic Debtors in all other aspects of our lives, family, career, etc...
Actually I still do not think the Triple Gem can 'shield' us from danger, but they educate us, so that we can take action to rectify the situation.I see it in the form of loan repayment, and Buddha teaches us how to repay this loan though they can't pay for us.
If you can fully pay up what you own them within a certain window period, they will stop creating trouble for you, the issue is settle.
If you pay up only partially, you will face some danger (partial loses)
If you don't pay up at all, and the issue is actually quite serious (maybe you killed them in your previous life), you will face life-threatening encounters and might lose your life.
To me, how much trouble you will face is dependent one how much one has paid back before the time bomb goes off.
The more you pay back, the less problem you face.
I believe the Triple Gem does possess spiritual powers to help us, but the extent of help which we receive from them is still dependent on our understanding of the Dharma. So in the end it's all able making an effort to learn more and put them into practice, with every action done motivated by correct views, many problems can be solve and no happiness will be beyond our reach.
-
@Ratna Shugden
I suppose what you are saying is 'Lets get out those prostration mats out' I am sure I've made my fair of karmic debtors whilst in Samsara :) .
Or was there another way u were thinking about to pay back the karmic debtor?
-
@Ratna Shugden
I suppose what you are saying is 'Lets get out those prostration mats out' I am sure I've made my fair of karmic debtors whilst in Samsara :) .
Or was there another way u were thinking about to pay back the karmic debtor?
'Lets get out those prostration mats out!'
-
I think that, in the innumerable lifetimes we have lived since beginningless time, we have created not only heavy karmic debts with vicious vengeful spirits who have trailed us lifetime after lifetime. We have created uncountable karmic debts with beings who had been kind to us and whose kindness we failed to remember and repay. Seeing that all beings have been our mothers, how great is our karmic debt to these mothers whose kindness we have not repaid.
That is why developing and cultivating Bodhicitta is such an urgent task that we have to engage in - if not for anything else but to repay our karmic debt to all mother beings.
-
Hmm karmic debtors. The concept of karmic debtors does not exist in Buddhism but it is rather a concept that is prevalent in Hinduism and in its sister religion, Taoism.
If we believe in karma, then the concept of debtors does not exist, why? Because debtors indicate that you owe specific people something when in reality we own every single sentient being something that we may have owned them in many countless lifetimes in the past.
There are beings who harm us out of revenge, but those may be the result of our own carelessness with people and have offended them. Obviously they would like to get even, so in that context it is still karma but labeling them as karmic debtors means we are not taking responsibilities for our own actions and we blame them to be the cause of our unhappiness. When we do, and accept whatever unhappiness that they bring us, we are taking responsibility for our own karma because karma WILL NOT and CANNOT be cancelled out by appeasing the external enemy, it can be delayed but to think that it is possible to eradicate karma by appeasing those who wish to harm us is just not in accordance with the law of karma at all.
-
I heard a story once from Master Cheng Yen's teaching DVD about a monk who have harmed a man over ten lifetimes ago. His action of being untruthful resulted in this man's death with vegeance. After harming this man, he became a monk and kept his vows purely for over 10 lifetimes. Until one day, a pride slipped through his mind upon getting a beautiful throne from the king as a sign of respect. That is when the spirit of the man who was harmed have a chance to get even. Previously, he did not get the chance because the monk upheld his vow sincerely. He developed a wound resembling a human head that is very painful. That wound even expected to be fed.
To cut the long story short, at the end, another high attainer subdue the spirit by teaching him Dharma and the spirit was willing to let go his vegeance. The monk was cured after cleaning himself in a special lake.
I think the monk had karmic debt with this spirit. So the concept exists in human life including in Buddhism through the law of karma.
In real life, we have some afinity to certain people. We can like certain people better than the others for no particular reason. So this prove that the feeling that we have for certain people whether it is like, dislke, hatred, will follow us to the next life as imprints. Particularly for dislike/ hatred, if it is not settled within that lifetime when it occured and we don't control our mind, we can be the karmic debtor to certain beings although we maybe humans and not spirits in this lifetime. The mind who hates and want to get even with another mind. I think this is what Ratna Shugden means by Karmic debtors.
Certainly to clear out this matter, several actions can be taken to halt or delay the effect of vegeance from karmic debtors:
Prevention
- Don't leave things unsettled in this lifetime
- Don't hurt anyone
- Continue to do good deeds and spread the seeds of compassion, so some people can be relieved from their karmic debt either to you or anyone else
- Continue to learn and spread Dharma Teaching as a food for the hungry and hateful minds so they can let go of their hatred.
For Karmic debt performed in the past:
- Do purification practice
- Hold your vows
- do good deeds and make offerings to be dedicated for the hateful minds and karmic debtors so they can let go.
Anything else anyone?
-
I think if we feel that there is spirit around in any place,we should pray to Dorje Shugden and after praying we dedicate to all the spirits that is around the whole wide world. So the spirit can have a good rebirth to be a human to learn the dharma and be a good person.And if they can have a good rebirth,I wish that they can really learn the dharma and spread the dharma.
-
Again, let me reiterate that the mere concept of karmic debtors is a very coarse and rough idea of Karma and it is a misinterpretation of it. Just because some beings with longer lives than us can hold deep grudges and can wait for a very long time just to carry out the grudge, dosent mean that they are karmic debtors. The reason is simple: If karmic debtors were a valid theory, then instead of doing Vajrasattva we would be prostrating to the embodiment of all our enemies.
The concept of Karmic debtors is easy to explain to the Chinese due to the simple reason that the concept is actually a cultural thing, as it was influenced from Hinduism. There are many chinese folk tales, and even chinese literature that has this concept as their main theme. One of them is the Dream of the red chamber. Another is the Investiture of the Gods (fengshen yanyi). There were also themes of this in Journey to the west.
It is a simple way to explain how karma works for people who are simple minded, whose only motivation is to get out of trouble: to not do bad so that you wont get into trouble. But why? Because if you do something bad, they will want to take revenge on you, not just in this life but the next. So that obviously caused them to try and avoid harming people or offending them.
The other part of karmic debtors is if you appease the being whom you have offended in your past life, the karma will be nullified. I think the bulk of the discussion here misses out on this point "conveniently". Thus, we have people marrying animals whom they have killed when they were young or are claimed to be their partners in a previous life to remove the bad karma. This part of this theory basically falls flat against the Lamrim's definition of Karma who makes no mention of such a topic. It only emphasized on the nature and feature of Karma but not on how there are countless beings out there trying to get us back.
-
Thank you for starting this topic.. It is very real that we have karma debtors around us! Since we have committed countless crimes hence collected negative karma along the way, we have to repay our 'debts' one way or another!
This view has helped me in making peace with difficult situations and when facing difficult people. I always remind my self this : there are two possible explanations:
(1) This person had suffered from previous lives crimes that I had committed against him/her and now my negative karma had rippen and he/she is here to 'get back' to me, OR
(2) by being bad to me, cheat me or hurt me, this person is committing negative karma and he/she will have to repay this in future lives.
Either way I look at the situation, I have nothing to loose:
(1) by suffering, I have repaid the negative karma that I have accumulated
(2) the person has to repay me in future lives, I have nothing to loose. Just like depositing money in bank account for future use.
I hope this is not too childish but it works for me. I no longer feel angry when facing difficult situation or people and start finding peace within me..
-
Thank you for starting this topic.. It is very real that we have karma debtors around us! Since we have committed countless crimes hence collected negative karma along the way, we have to repay our 'debts' one way or another!
This view has helped me in making peace with difficult situations and when facing difficult people. I always remind my self this : there are two possible explanations:
(1) This person had suffered from previous lives crimes that I had committed against him/her and now my negative karma had rippen and he/she is here to 'get back' to me, OR
(2) by being bad to me, cheat me or hurt me, this person is committing negative karma and he/she will have to repay this in future lives.
Either way I look at the situation, I have nothing to loose:
(1) by suffering, I have repaid the negative karma that I have accumulated
(2) the person has to repay me in future lives, I have nothing to loose. Just like depositing money in bank account for future use.
I hope this is not too childish but it works for me. I no longer feel angry when facing difficult situation or people and start finding peace within me..
This theory is really good if we have not learned much Dharma, or find the theory of Karma too intimidating and we need time to digest and accept the concepts and mechanics behind it in order to understand and embody them. Its the training wheels on the bicycle if we have difficulty understanding the true nature of karma as outlined by the great masters as not everyone has the merits to understand.
Having someone believe in this theory is better than having that person not believe in anything at all and create many unfortunate circumstances for themselves. Why? because if they truly believe in this theory, they will stop harming others and start becoming more conscious and mindful of their actions to not harm others because of the repercussions that may be occurred.
However if we have the great fortune to study the Lamrim, or any equivalent texts that details on karma such as the Wheel of Sharp Weapons, and in the Chinese tradition, the long version of the Shuragama Sutra, then we should "drop" this belief as we no longer need training wheels in modifying our body, speech and mind. We know more now, so why do we hang on to something that wont help us see the bigger picture?
The debtor theory does heighten our awareness and help us let go of grudges and does not give us an excuse to hold any hatred or anger towards anyone because after all we receive harm from them because we own them something previously. It helps to reduce grudges and help us live a happier and lighter life, but when its time for the bigger picture, we'll need to stop getting obsessed with our debtors to the point we fail to develop bodhicitta.
-
I have read about karmic debtors previously in materials related to the practice of Chod.
In the chod tradition, the four recipients of the offering thatone keeps in mind are called “four guests.” One imagines organising a big feast and inviting the four kinds of guests. They are:
1) Higher guests, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, Yidams (deities), dakinis, sages, teachers, yogis and yoginis
2) Guests of Quality—fierce beings, wrathful protectors of the dharma, pure emanations of enlightened mind, and powerful worldly spirits
3) Guests of Compassion—existing in the six realms, humans, animals, hungry ghosts, hell beings, demy-gods and gods
4) Lower Guests—all beings to whom we owe a karmic debt, demonic forces, harm-givers, negative spirits and entities.
It is said that karmic debtors are those whose one is karmically linked with most strongly. One owes them something and they owe one something. One of the very strong karmic connections is there because, for some reason, one killed them and such a karmic connection is what is called “a negative karmic debt.” It is called a debt because the result of that connection has still not been resolved, and this negative/black karmic debt travels with and directs our minds into future rebirths.
-
Just another interesting side note about karmic debtors, is that they could be anyone, they could be our partners or our family or friends or our parents that we cant seem to make peace with and that they will hurt us continuously again and again but yet we are hopelessly drawn to them. It's more or less the play of Karma here and due to our past actions, we are being hurt by others repeatedly until we transform our minds and no longer have the karmic imprint to suffer from the repeated actions of these people that will hurt us.
-
It is not always that we have only Karmic Debtors that is around to take back or avenge us on what we have done negatively to them in this life or previous lives.
I believe there is also Karmic Creditors, to whom we have done positive acts to and who are around us to give something to us.
Karma and the consequences are like cause and effects and in simple lay man language I would call it actions and results. Obviously good actions will produce good results and vice versa.
Due to our contaminated mind, what we think is positive may not be to the recipient and vice versa.
Therefore it is important for us to dedicate merits to all sentient beings and with our best motivation to perform deeds that will purify our Karma so that the Buddhas will find it easier to avert calamities that will come to us from our previous misdeeds of unkindness.
The beauty as taught by Buddha is that our Karma is up to us. That is in itself extremely empowering.