Author Topic: Suggestion: A Case Study  (Read 8160 times)

Zhalmed Pawo

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Suggestion: A Case Study
« on: February 12, 2010, 07:24:02 PM »
As I today read some of the posts here, I noticed (and remembered) the "age old accusation" of how DS would supposedly harm DL and Tibet. This accusation has been one of the most long lived and perhaps the original accusation against our practice. It would be interesting to study the Lives and Ages of This Accusation.

Together, we Shugdenites on this Forum, could easily write a History of an Accusation propagated by the Dalai XIV. I have not read the new book by WSS, so I do not know if this issue is dealt in a systemic way there, but I suspect it hasn't. What I propose is that we should collect the "statements from the Throne", the sayings of DL himself. Not just the idiotisms or the hooliganisms of his followers, but the very words of DL himself, in a compact form.

So, let's see the main events so far, focusing only on the Age of the current Dalai, and thereby also remaining within the limits of verifiability:

If I remember correctly, the start was that the Oracle of Nechung said to the DL, that DS is harmful to him and Tibet.

Later, the DL told this publicly, so that the Tibetans who loved DL and Tibet started to act, so to speak.

But later (and after much protesting by certain parties, re: refuge benefits as taught by JT), the DL commented publicly also, that "to think that a spirit like DS could harm himself, the DL, is just wrong thinking, and that he, the DL, laughs to the stupid ideas like that".

So my point is, that the original reason has been ridiculed even by the DL himself. And since it is so, what else do we need? Except to proclaim it. Proclaim that the DL contradicts his own words, the words he takes from his own spirit minister. It might be helpful, in fact wonderful, if we could collect together all the relevant statements and stitch those into a timeline. Methinks it would be most illuminating. It would also be a great weapon of truth, for afterall, you only need to show that the opposing party of a debate contradicts himself.

So whaddyathink?! Is there a need for a short tractate called "the Lives and Ages of a Faulty Accusation made by DL XIV"?

All the quotes should be of course be verifiable, from the horse's mouth, from the Throne, and if they were given originally in Tibetan, the original should be given also. etc. yadda yadda.

 :P

« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 07:28:58 PM by Zhalmed Pawo »

crazycloud

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Re: Suggestion: A Case Study
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2010, 06:27:17 PM »
As I today read some of the posts here, I noticed (and remembered) the "age old accusation" of how DS would supposedly harm DL and Tibet. This accusation has been one of the most long lived and perhaps the original accusation against our practice. It would be interesting to study the Lives and Ages of This Accusation.

Together, we Shugdenites on this Forum, could easily write a History of an Accusation propagated by the Dalai XIV. I have not read the new book by WSS, so I do not know if this issue is dealt in a systemic way there, but I suspect it hasn't. What I propose is that we should collect the "statements from the Throne", the sayings of DL himself. Not just the idiotisms or the hooliganisms of his followers, but the very words of DL himself, in a compact form.


Yes, such a project would be worthwhile... BTW, in the WSS book you will find an exhaustive timeline about who said and did what when... it is the most up to date version of this

A fantasy project of mine that I suppose is related is to take all the video of the DL talking smack and interpose one to the other.... seeing is believing , as they say.

Imagine, a video where the DL says

"I never tried to restrict the practice...."
immediate cut to
"....and that is why I began to clamp down on the practice at that time"

cut to

"It is just my advice, everyone has freedom..."
to
"it would be bad if as a last resort we had to knock on your doors"

to

"my policy as you know, has always been religious freedom...."
to
"Tell then I said to do this, and it is very urgent..."

etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc......

oh it would be sweet....!

hope I get to it someday....

WisdomBeing

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Re: Suggestion: A Case Study
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2010, 07:02:08 PM »
Crazy cloud

that would be quite an excellent exercise... to juxtaposition the Dalai Lama's contradictory statements in a video! Please do it! :)
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

emptymountains

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Re: Suggestion: A Case Study
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2010, 08:26:32 PM »
Don't do that! That would be hateful and demeaning to the Dalai Lama. He is the sole saviour of Tibet, head of all Buddhist traditions on earth, and only person capable of spreading Dharma around the world. No one else can do this. That is why Dorje Shugden has to be the bad guy. We must do all we can to protect the Dalai Lama's reputation, no matter what he does. Why are you all hating such a holy being? We cannot know his mind, so we do not know what his real intentions are regarding the ban. Surely, there is a bigger plan. The WSS book uses his own words and actions against him, and now you want to make a video doing the same? This is shameless behavior for a Lojong practitioner--he is EVERYONE'S Guru (according to the six degrees of separation). He is a Buddha, because that would be a very convenient take on things, making it easier for me not to do anything. After all, samsara will fade and disappear on its own, so the ban will too! It's YOU who don't have faith, only hatred.

 :-\
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 08:34:11 PM by emptymountains »

crazycloud

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Re: Suggestion: A Case Study
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2010, 08:32:47 PM »
Don't do that! That would be hateful and demeaning to the Dalai Lama. He is the sole saviour of Tibet, head of all Buddhist traditions on earth, and only person capable of spreading Dharma around the world. No one else can do this. That is why Dorje Shugden has to be the bad guy. We must do all we can to protect the Dalai Lama's reputation, no matter what he does. Why are you all hating such a holy being? We cannot know his mind, so we do not know what his real intentions are regarding the ban. Surely, there is a bigger plan. The WSS book uses his own words against him, and now you want to make a video doing the same? This is shameless behavior for a Lojong practitioner--he is EVERYONE'S Guru (according to the six degrees of separation). He is a Buddha, because that would be a very convenient take on things, making it easier for me not to do anything. After all, samsara will fade and disappear on its own, so the ban will too! It's YOU who don't have faith, only hatred.

 :-\

HEY, BEAT IT NNNOOOOOOBBB! YOU CAN"T SAY THAT KIND OF THING AROUND HERE!!!!

emptymountains

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Re: Suggestion: A Case Study
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2010, 08:35:56 PM »
Why do you have to be so black-and-white in your thinking, unlike me who says you are anti-Dalai just by being critical about his actions that by all appearances seem to be destroying our spiritual tradition. We're all on the same side here!

P.S. Not to get too far off topic, but some of us are working behind the scenes on a medium for this 'Case Study' you suggest. It's a great idea worth actualizing.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 08:41:38 PM by emptymountains »

crazycloud

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Re: Suggestion: A Case Study
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2010, 09:34:21 PM »
Why do you have to be so black-and-white in your thinking, unlike me who says you are anti-Dalai just by being critical about his actions that by all appearances seem to be destroying our spiritual tradition. We're all on the same side here!

P.S. Not to get too far off topic, but some of us are working behind the scenes on a medium for this 'Case Study' you suggest. It's a great idea worth actualizing.

Oh fantastic! You mean we can be on the same side and I can stop being so angry, AS LONG AS I AGREE TO YOUR POINT OF VIEW?! This is a dream come true! NOW EVERYONE CAN AGREE! I feel my panties slowly beginning to un-bunch...wait, ...wait, yes, my hatred of the Dalai Lama is subsiding. Wow, I can't believe that even though I have been practicing with my Lama for decades, I never realized that I DON"T HAVE TO HATE SOMEONE TO DISAGREE WITH THEM, I always just hated the Dalai Lama because He disagreed with me, the same way I have hated these damn beautiful noobs for their hope! I thought ... i thought.... :'( ...hate was the way, i never even noticed I was angry all the time! You guys know I can't deal with it the moment someone disagrees with me! THANKS SUPERNOOB!!!

wait, is this...

     ...is this just...

just you, Empty?

 Awwwww..... you had me going there, you crazy old coot!

but....can I still agree with the noobs? Pleeeease?!? It feels so....so darn cozy here..... I don't mind if the DL persecutes my vajra brothers and sisters, he really is such a sweet guy, kind of reminds me of a Jim Henson character..... can't speak up...got...to be....pals....getting ...so....sleepy....so.....tiredzz.zzz.zzzzz...zzzzzz..zzzzzz


alright you crazy kids, let me know if you have the resources to do it!
:)