Author Topic: "Interesting" comments about oracles...does she know what she's talking about?  (Read 6289 times)


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It seems like everyone associated with this group can't get their opinions straight. Do they know what they're actually talking about because there are so many ways to poke holes in what they say. Carol McQuire HAS to make fun of NKT but in doing so, she picks on the oracle tradition in Tibetan Buddhism. Doesn't she realise her beloved Dalai Lama has not one, but three oracles that he relies on? It seems quite incredible that she would make fun of the NKT of relying on deities which are "not a Buddha" when the Dalai Lama's got three oracles on retainer. Anyway I wanted to share these images here because I find them too funny, and too truthful. They're being circulated amongst the Tibetan community now and people are having a very good laugh at her comments!

Addendum by moderator:

For the purposes of discussion, here are some links that were brought to my attention. It will help to give context to the remarks made below regarding the oracular tradition in Tibetan Buddhism. Important to note that high lamas throughout the Gelug tradition, including the Dalai Lama, make a very big deal out of oracles and the entire tradition. Youve got His Holiness showing a very close relationship with all of the oracles, and showing them the highest respect. Look at the number of people in the Tibetan community who queue up to receive blessings and advice from beings that the lady calls "not a Buddha".

In one of the videos, theres even an oracle running throughout Sera Monastery in front of Lama Zopa. The oracles waving his sword about and none of the monks, including Lama Zopa, bat an eyelash. They dont stop him and let him carry on. So whats that about if the beings entering are "not a Buddha"? Shouldnt these high lamas stop the unenlightened beings from entering and disrupting the prayers and whatnot?

According to oral tradition, it is believed that for a lama to occupy the Gaden throne of Lama Tsongkhapa, it takes a tremendous amount of merits and great learning is only a part of it. Since the tenure of Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, who occupied the Gaden throne as 97th Gaden Tripa, all Gaden throne holders have successfully completed their spiritual duties. They have done well during their tenure.

Among the senior lamas, it is well known that to occupy such a powerful and illustrious throne in a role representing Tsongkhapa, you must be highly attained, highly accomplished and must be well-practiced in tantra. Otherwise you will not successfully complete your term, and will take ill, resign or pass away. This is what is said in the monasteries. Any lama who is well practiced in tantra will have the abilities to have some nominal control over their bodies in regards to health and the timing they will pass away. Great Lamas like Ling, Trijang, Zong, Zemey and many more could extend their lives and also lived long lives. This is a hallmark of a powerful tantric practitioner.

Surely a Gaden Tripa, the head of the Gelug school of Buddhism and representative of Tsongkhapa will have these nominal tantric abilities to heal themselves and extend their lives. For example, the Dalai Lama is always saying to the press how long he will live and until when. This is a sort of hint to his powers acquired in tantra to control his body knowing when he will pass. The 103rd Gaden Tripa passing away suddenly after only four months on the throne is an embarrassment to the Gelug school and it shows he has not much accomplishments by way of tantra to control his body.

Even towards the end of his life, the severe deterioration of his body and the secrecy behind his disease added more negative questioning. People are suspecting in hushed tones now that he died of AIDS because in India, dirty needles are commonly used in village clinics to administer medicine. Lobsang Tenzin had been financially strapped for many years during his refugee stay in India (50 years or more), and could have easily gone for a simple injection at a local clinic and contracted AIDS. The other suspected cause of death might be he had cancer. Both AIDS and cancer would have given this wasting away appearance prior to death. Whatever it is, why the shrouded mystery to announce his illness?

Perhaps it is embarrassing and reflects his ordinariness, although rank-wise he was very high? Rank and attainments do not always go equally hand in hand as this Gaden Tripa showed. Since the position of Gaden Tripa is through meritocracy, not everyone who reaches it may have great tantric attainments and are therefore unable to sit for very long on the throne. This doesn't apply to other throne holders or offices of reincarnated positions. In those cases, it is the same person's mind returning again and again to occupy the throne, and hence they bring with them the same attainments from life to life. Being the same mindstream taking reincarnation to occupy the thrones, they draw on the same source of merits to support their occupancy of the throne.

• 97th Gaden Tripa Kyabje Ling Rinpoche 1903-1983
(Double tenure of 1965-1983)
• 98th Gaden Tripa Jetsun Jampal Zhenpen 1919–1989
(Tenure 1984–1989)
• 99th Gaden Tripa Yeshe Dhonden passed away in 1995
(Tenure 1989-1995)
• 100th Gaden Tripa Lobsang Nyima Rinpoche 1928-2008
(Tenure 1995–2003)
• 101th Gaden Tripa Lungrik Namgyal b.1927 
(Tenure 2003–2009)
• 102th Gaden Tripa Rizong Rinpoche b.1928
(Tenure 2009-2016)
• 103rd Gaden Tripa Lobsang Tenzin 1937-2017

Hence, we can see that previous Gaden Tripas had the merits to serve as Gaden throne holder for their allocated tenure. On the other hand, it was quite obvious that Tripa Lobsang Tenzin did not have the necessary merits to occupy the Gaden throne as he passed away just four months after his enthronement. In the monastery, he had a reputation of being a political lama and that did not serve him well. He was also highly critical of Dorje Shugden's practice, a view which didn't serve him as he collected a lot of negative karma for speaking against Dorje Shugden. Although given the opportunity to collect tremendous amounts of merits in his position as Gaden Tripa, his karma caught up instead. Due to his speaking against Shugden, he broke many other people's samaya with their gurus. One of his own gurus was Trijang Rinpoche and by criticising Dorje Shugden, he broke his samaya with his own teacher. The karma is heavy even if you are Gaden Tripa. Buddha gave no exceptions of karma and its results to anyone.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 02:02:03 PM by DharmaDefender »

Ringo Starr

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I know a few of these types. They defame at all costs. They lose impartiality and waste time and effort defaming instead of gaining more knowledge and practicing.

They write or say to support their unsupportable claims and in parallel solidify their ego. They are attention seekers.

Their only "friends" are the ones who have to wholeheartedly or seemingly wholeheartedly embrace their untenable views. They will have fewer and fewer "friends".

Their egos have to be smashed. So in the name of helping these people transform their minds, a big LOL to you!


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Simply criticizing an old practice seems foolish to me. Who is this lady who thinks to be so smart to talk about a recognized tradition?

One should be careful to speak about something one does not know much about as it creates heavy karma to simply put down a powerful and beneficial practice.

Thank you to the moderator for the interesting YouTube links!


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Oracles are a great part of our Tibetan tradition. Foreigners who don't understand our practices should not be so quick to judge them as this and that because it makes them look ill-informed, foolish and uneducated. Why apply Western-bred perception to Eastern practices? The two will not fit and judging Eastern practices according to one's Western perception will only lead to inaccurate conclusions.

So this person claims that all deities who enter oracles are 'not a Buddha'. What she means is that all of them are unenlightened. As the images from the original poster have very clearly stated, is this lady saying that His Holiness the Dalai Lama relies on unenlightened beings? During Loshar every year, the Dalai Lama has his oracles take trance to bless and give advice. This is except for Gadhong Oracle who never spoke, which the Dalai Lama said was due to his tuberculosis.

Why does the Dalai Lama rely on unenlightened deities, as this lady suggests, to guide and bless people when he can do it himself? If you want to say it's humility, that's fine. But His Holiness still has a whole pantheon of enlightened lamas like my Rimpoche to do the guiding and blessings, and these gurus can appear in person. Wouldn't that be safer as there won't be concern about what kind of deity is entering the oracle? Yet the Dalai Lama still has the trances take place, even though he does not have to rely on these deities to do the task.

If Nechung, Tenma and Gadhong is good enough for the Dalai Lama, I'm sure Dorje Shugden is good enough for those who practise Shugden. It's up to them what they wish to worship, I'm not here to judge. But this lady doesn't do herself any favours when she speaks judgemental nonsense like this. Her opinion is not a well-informed and properly-concluded one. It is based on her hatred of Shugdenpas and spoken out of her experiences with NKT, whatever those may be. But just because she and a small handful had unpleasant experiences with one organisation, it doesn't mean the entire oracle tradition should be rubbished as one which involves unenlightened deities.


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This woman definitely has no idea what she is talking about and one thing for sure, she inherited the NKT's nonsense to deny the oracle and tulku system. In one hand she blames NKT for everything that has gone wrong in her life, as if she is so perfect and full of wisdom that she has not done anything wrong in her life at all. On the other hand, she uses NKT's beliefs of oracle and tulku system at her convenience to get her point across. What is her stand? Pro or anti NKT? Pro or anti HH Dalai Lama? I guess she may not be as sophisticated to think deeper or contemplate her contradictions than to do everything to protect her selfish interest and perhaps her 'good' reputation she thought she may has.

HH Dalai Lama and the CTA relies on not one but three oracles for the state matters. HH Dalai Lama recognises many tulkus throughout history and in this life itself he has recognised both his own tutors Kyabje Yongzin Ling Rinpoche and Kyabje Trjang Choktrul Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Choktrul Rinpoche etc. Nevermind the fact that these high lamas were Dorje Shugden practitioners in their previous lives, they reincarnated and resume their powerful positions in benefitting others but HH Dalai Lama recognises them! So McQuire is now saying that they are not real tulkus and going against her guru's power and clairvoyance because she knows better? It would appear to be the case since she can leave NKT and defame Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for all his kindness to her for as long as she leeches the benefits she received from Geshe-la and NKT, she can definitely do the same to HH Dalai Lama. No wonder her group at We Need to Talk About Shugden is dying off leaving her holding on with all her distorted views!

At the end of the day, bullshit can only last you so long, sooner or later, people will see through that and leave!

Gabby Potter

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I guess it's a big slap on the Dalai Lama's face? She actually has the audacity to say that, knowing that the Dalai Lama has been relying heavily on oracles. What is she trying to say? That she knows more than the Dalai Lama? The backlash from her little statement there can be quite severe because if what she is trying to imply is trances are not legit, then it creates a huge doubt about the Dalai Lama in peoples' minds. So if whatever that enters the oracle is not a Buddha, has the Dalai Lama been consulting unenlightened wordly spirits then? Isn't that considered as spirit worshiping?