Author Topic: Dalai Lama Talked about Dorje Shugden on 23/07/2013 in Shartse Monastery  (Read 12661 times)

fruven

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Re: Dalai Lama Talked about Dorje Shugden on 23/07/2013 in Shartse Monastery
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2013, 11:01:09 PM »
Yes. Dorje Shugden always grabs everyone's attention and even more so when the Dalai Lama spoke about him. Is Dalai Lama saying something 'negative', neutral or positive on the ban itself in the video this time? Come to think of it the Dalai Lama has said repeatedly not to pray and seek help from spirits. Isn't it about time those who seeking help from Nechung stop doing so and seek help from enlightened being instead?

vajratruth

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Here is the video with a translation of the Dalai Lama's speech. Perhaps not surprisingly, with greater awareness of the ban on Dorje Shugden and as this site raises more and more questions regarding this violation of human rights and the proper practice of Dharma, the Dalai Lama is now telling monks to say that they themselves decided to stop the Protector practice and not to say that the Dalai Lama told them to. This is of course not true and this video that has been put together by Admin shows concrete proof.

It is quite unsettling how the Dalai Lama seems to be denying that he caused the ban to happen and coerced monks to abide by it. Anyway take a look. Also please go to the link and read what DS.Com has written about this flip-flop by the Dalai Lama.

The translated video:

Small | Large


And read this article for an in-depth discussion/analysis:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/others-old/contradiction-in-the-dalai-lamas-public-statements/

Wonderful work by the DS.com team...again!

lotus1

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Thank you so much dorjeshugden.com for translating Dalai Lama’s speech and transcripting it so that we can understand.
As pointed out in detailed in the article, there are so many contradictions in the Dalai Lama’s statement throughout the years.  For me, it is just indicating that the reasons for the ban on Dorje Shugden are not logical at all and very weak.  What I can see is that the high lamas practicing Dorje Shugden such as Kyabje Pabongka Dorje Chang, HH Trijang Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, HE Zemey Rinpoche are reincarnated and continued in their work to spread Buddhism, there is definitely no flaw at all in practicing Dorje Shugden. May the ban be lifted soonest and more people can be benefited.


Lineageholder

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Thanks Admin for getting the Dalai Lama's words translated for us and I apologise for my previous posting.

We can see that the Dalai Lama is now trying to distance himself from his actions in 2008 but as you have shown, he very strongly advocated the explusion of the Shugden monks, saying that he himself would take responsibility if anyone questioned why it was happening.

Maybe he has realised that his actions show him in a very bad light and is now trying to re-write history so that he won't be held responsible for the schism in the Sangha; but we can see that he is solely responsible for this sad state of affairs.

samayakeeper

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Thank you very much, admin, for the translation  ;D I guess the reverse statement by HHDL could be the good works done here by the people behind the scene. So much researches done to provide factual information without putting down HHDL is winning the hearts of many people especially those who had been sitting on the fence. I dare say winning over some people who had been anti Shugden  ;)

vajratruth

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Maybe he has realised that his actions show him in a very bad light and is now trying to re-write history so that he won't be held responsible for the schism in the Sangha; but we can see that he is solely responsible for this sad state of affairs.



That is for certain. What astounds me is how the Dalai Lama can simply instruct the monks on what to think and what to say, as if they do not have minds of their own.  I wonder if it has occurred to any monks why the Dalai Lama keeps changing the story. At one time, one of the reasons given for the Shugden ban was that it harms the Dalai Lama's life but later on the Dalai Lama himself came out to say that was not correct.

In another post we hear of the Dalai Lama sending the Abbot of Shartse to invite Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche (the "Daddy" of all Dorje Shugden practitioners) to return to the monastery after expelling all Shugden monks from the same monasteries. http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/abbots-urgently-sent-to-the-usa/). And yet, it appears that no one inside the monasteries are questioning these inconsistencies.

Makes me wonder how many people who are against the Protector practice actually know what the real issue is about.

Rihanna

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[You are right Lotus1. Through the years, HHDL contradicts himself on issues pertaining Dorje Shugden but he is consistent on all other matters. Isn't it strange? Why would he want to look contradicting to the whole world who is watching this issue so closely?]


Thank you so much dorjeshugden.com for translating Dalai Lama’s speech and transcripting it so that we can understand.
As pointed out in detailed in the article, there are so many contradictions in the Dalai Lama’s statement throughout the years.  For me, it is just indicating that the reasons for the ban on Dorje Shugden are not logical at all and very weak.  What I can see is that the high lamas practicing Dorje Shugden such as Kyabje Pabongka Dorje Chang, HH Trijang Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, HE Zemey Rinpoche are reincarnated and continued in their work to spread Buddhism, there is definitely no flaw at all in practicing Dorje Shugden. May the ban be lifted soonest and more people can be benefited.
[/quote]

Matibhadra

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Any raper brought to court blames his victim for the rape, saying that the victim freely agreed to have his or her body violated.

In the same way, the Dalai Lama blames his victims, the monks whose conscience were violated, for the violation they underwent, saying that they freely agreed to be violated.

As though he were in court, the Dalai Lama sounds rather defensive, and uncomfortable with the burden of crimes he has engaged in, and therefore wants to share responsibilities -- blaming the victim, as any criminal would.

christine V

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Thank you for this translation.

Seem the Dalai Lama have once again talk about Dorje Shugden issues. But, this time, H.H told that
this was not by His instruction. But, how strange it is? He knew that what he have talked will
be recorded and people will look for the inconsistency in His speech specially in Dorje Shugden issues
Why H.H wanted to be painted in such a way that His speech is inconsistent?
As a Bodhisattva himself, what is the real reasons for Him to do so?

Anyway, this can be a "good news" for Dorje Shugden practitioner that Dalai Lama is not that "strict"
on this ban anymore.

May this banned lifted fast to expel this confusion.


DharmaSpace

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I do wonder what will happen if the Gaden and Sera monks were to ask if the Dalai Lama could lift the ban. Would any of the monks there dare and have the courage to end this ban for good, since now the responsibility seems to have shifted towards the monks of Gaden and Sera who started the ban. 

The ban is so ridiculous and no one can make sense of it from the start and until now.

Blueupali

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Thank you very much for the translation :)
  I guess what the Dalai Lama is saying is that he didn't say that the monks couldn't practice Dorje Shugden, but if they did practice it, then he would expel them from their monasteries and exile them from the Tibetan community.
  So if the Dalai Lama is going to carry the work of the 5th DL through to the end, then he should be embracing the Dorje Shugden practice soon, and also re-befriending Karmapa (Thaye Dorje).  The fifth Dalai Lama finally noticed that Dorje Shugden was enlightened toward the end of his life; the 10th Karmapa, whom the Dalai Lama had forced into exile, returned from exile a year before the Karmapa's death.  Well, except, I guess the 10th Karmapa wasn't told to go into exile--- it's just that forces loyal to the 5th Dalai Lama would have killed him if he didn't go; similar to the monks being forced to leave the monasteries if they practice Shugden, but there is no ban on Shugden.  Okay.
  Well, I never did understand the whole thing with the ban or the two Karmapas except in both cases I think the Dalai Lama is decoying China....

Matibhadra

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Unfortunately I could not find an appropriate link, but looks like researchers from the University College London recently published an article in the scientific periodic Current Biology showing that people who engaged in harmful actions tend to disconnect from them, sharing with or transferring to others the blame for their wrongdoings.
This would be a subsconscious attempt to reduce one's feeling of guilt or responsability for the unfortunate actions and their catastrophic results.
I could not prevent being reminded of the current Dalai Lama, who shamelessly and under heavy threats forced thousands of monks to violate their consciences by abandoning their spiritual practices and persecuting those who would refuse to do so, but now plays the innocent, claiming that the monks acted on their own and not because of him.
A pertinent question would be if this mechanism of sharing or transferring the blame is somehow connected with the unability to feel remorse and the externalization of the blame, which are well established characteristics of the psychopath.

Blueupali

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Unfortunately I could not find an appropriate link, but looks like researchers from the University College London recently published an article in the scientific periodic Current Biology showing that people who engaged in harmful actions tend to disconnect from them, sharing with or transferring to others the blame for their wrongdoings.
This would be a subsconscious attempt to reduce one's feeling of guilt or responsability for the unfortunate actions and their catastrophic results.
I could not prevent being reminded of the current Dalai Lama, who shamelessly and under heavy threats forced thousands of monks to violate their consciences by abandoning their spiritual practices and persecuting those who would refuse to do so, but now plays the innocent, claiming that the monks acted on their own and not because of him.
A apertinent question would be if this mechanism of sharing or transferring the blame is somehow connected with the unability to feel remorse and the externalization of the blame, which are well established characteristics of the psychopath.



I don't know who is a psychopath, but Hilter psychotically ordered at least 6 million (genocide) deaths; the Dalai Lama does have Nazi Ties, as detailed in the new e-book by the International Shugden Community available at the link:
http://falsedalailama.com/

Matibhadra

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Quote
I don't know who is a psychopath, but Hilter psychotically ordered at least 6 million (genocide) deaths


An interesting book by the Canadian researcher James Baque (Crimes and Mercies) shows in minute detail how, shortly after the World War II, the US, under the command of Harry Truman and his master, Henry Morgenthau, mass murdered 9 million innocent German civilians, mainly by starvation and suffocated in the wagons they were brought in from Eastern Europe to Bavaria. Of course little is said about this in the official propaganda.

And how many millions were murdered by Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon, under the command of their respective masters Walt Rostow and Henry Kissinger, in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia etc. And the million plus in Iraq by Bush Junior under the command of his master Paul Wolfowitz?

My point is that there is a strange tendency, mainly within some quarters of US culture, to look far away for psychopaths and psychotics, while there are so many of them so near at home!

May I suggest that any interested person have a look at the interview given by the current an longtime de facto mentor of US geopolitcs, Henry Kissinger, at http://www.dailysquib.co.uk/index.php?news=3089, and decide by oneself whether or not the country's geopolicy is ruled by a delirious psychopath cum psychotic specimen.

Now, a far as the Dalai Lama is concerned, my point is simply that in his Ganden Shartse speech he mainly tried to transfer the blame of the ban to the very victims, the monks who were forced to give up their practices, which is arguably an evidence of severe psychopathy on the Dalai Lama's side.

Blueupali

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Quote
I don't know who is a psychopath, but Hilter psychotically ordered at least 6 million (genocide) deaths


An interesting book by the Canadian researcher James Baque (Crimes and Mercies) shows in minute detail how, shortly after the World War II, the US, under the command of Harry Truman and his master, Henry Morgenthau, mass murdered 9 million innocent German civilians, mainly by starvation and suffocated in the wagons they were brought in from Eastern Europe to Bavaria. Of course little is said about this in the official propaganda.

And how many millions were murdered by Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon, under the command of their respective masters Walt Rostow and Henry Kissinger, in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia etc. And the million plus in Iraq by Bush Junior under the command of his master Paul Wolfowitz?

My point is that there is a strange tendency, mainly within some quarters of US culture, to look far away for psychopaths and psychotics, while there are so many of them so near at home!

May I suggest that any interested person have a look at the interview given by the current an longtime de facto mentor of US geopolitcs, Henry Kissinger, at http://www.dailysquib.co.uk/index.php?news=3089, and decide by oneself whether or not the country's geopolicy is ruled by a delirious psychopath cum psychotic specimen.

Now, a far as the Dalai Lama is concerned, my point is simply that in his Ganden Shartse speech he mainly tried to transfer the blame of the ban to the very victims, the monks who were forced to give up their practices, which is arguably an evidence of severe psychopathy on the Dalai Lama's side.


Dear Jspitanga,
  I apologize if I somehow indicated that the U.S. doesn't have it's own issues with destroying the lives of other peoples;  the U.S. needs to try to quit bossing everyone around.  I was just pointing out that the Dalai Lama has ties to the Nazis, which were clearly run by a psychopath, that's all.  If you want to call George Bush a psychopath, you won't get any argument from me; if you want to call Lord Amherst a psychopath who committed genocide to Native Americans, again no arguments.  However, I only happen to know from "A Great Deception" that the Dalai Lama had Nazi ties; I don't know how he felt about Lord Amherst, for instance.