Author Topic: another desecration of a holy image  (Read 18333 times)

Ensapa

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another desecration of a holy image
« on: June 29, 2012, 08:26:39 AM »
Hey guys, I found a picture of Guru Tragphur, a wrathful manifestation of Guru Rinpoche. In the iconography, the lower half of Guru Tragphur is actually a phurba stabbing on the body of a symbolic enemy. This appears to be a very rare and uncommon form of Guru Rinpoche as I cannot find much information about him. It seems that he is either a new form of Guru Rinpoche created specifically to counter Dorje Shugden as all descriptions of him say that he has Dorje Shugden pinned down under his feet.  It is sad because they are just creating the causes to cause this lineage to end. This practice will never ever become popular and nobody knows about it until now. No historical documents talk about this form so it should be a recent creation.

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Author: Chogyal Namkhai Norbu One of the most effective practices for controlling negativities is Guru Tragphur. This Guru Tragphur, however, is very special because it is the union of Hayagriva, Vajrapani, Garuda and Vajrakilaya as well as Yangdag Heruka. This practice is a terma of my uncle Heka Lingpa, also known as Jamyang Chokyi Wangchuk and Khyentse Yangsid Rinpoche. In our modern society there are many people who don't believe that other powerful beings really exist but it is important to understand the situation. This doesn't mean we should believe blindly. Instead of believing everything when someone says that there is a deity or a spirit, we should think a little. Then we can discover and understand. For example, in the universe there are many dimensions; that is something we can also understand scientifically. We say there are many galaxies and solar systems, and we know that these stars have immense dimensions. So, if there are these dimensions why should there not be beings there too? How can we decide that there are only human beings? We have many problems with illnesses, such as cancer and tumours, and now also AIDS. All these illnesses are related with negative provocations. If we do not control this negative energy, but just try to cure this illness with only medicine and therapy, we cannot cure it. However, if we know about that negativity and which kind of practice to use in order to control it, and do that practice together with therapy and medicine, then it really works. So it is very important to understand these provocations. Gyalpo is one of the Eight Classes. The Gyalpo is a very big class and also a very provocative one. Where the Gyalpos provoke, people become nervous; where there are Gyalpos there is war, conflict, problems, and a lot of confusion. Today the class of Gyalpo is really a problem in our society. Provocations from the Gyalpos exist everywhere. Beneath the manifestation of Guru Tragphur there are two figures: the male form is a Gyalpo and looks like Gyalpo Shugden to show that we have this kind of problem in this epoch. For that reason if you do Guru Tragphur practice you cannot receive negativities, the Gyalpos can never dominate you.


Pictures of Dorje Tragpur pinning down Dorje Shugden:





If you zoom in on the figure, he is wearing robes with a domed hat.

This practice will die off very soon and people who practice it will only create more misfortune for themselves, their lineage and their Gurus as it is a product of paranoia and this is nothing short of desecration.

dsiluvu

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2012, 06:08:30 PM »
Interesting Ensapa! But it is rather hilarious come to think of it simply because well... I guess they were pretty unsuccessful in getting rid/destroying/countering Dorje Shugden because emmmm well... there is so many monasteries and centres growing?!?!

If it is so effective then how come we are all still here and Dorje Shugden practice is still going on strong? Sounds to me it is another one of anti-Shugden's insecurities to find ways to paint a negative impression on Dorje Shugden so that real questions and thoughts regarding Dorje Shugden would not raised.

We just have to think back...ever since His Holiness Dalai Lama implemented the ban on Dorje Shugden... He has also ordered many Pujas to be performed to subdue Dorje Shugden and these were done High Lamas. And guess what...they were unsuccessful.

So the obvious arise... Dorje Shugden being the same with Manjushri a Buddha obvious cannot be harmed/destroyed. Hence with more of these new Protectors appearing to subdue Dorje Shugden will not affect Dorje Shugden, in fact it will probably make people think that truly Dorje Shugden is indestructible. And in all this it's obvious Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being.

DharmaDefender

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2012, 06:13:51 PM »
No matter how much I zoom in, I cant see it...

Anyway some time ago I heard a story (or maybe I read it here, I cant remember) about a monastery in Nepal which was opening. And on the altar was a statue of a deity stepping on Dorje Shugden, but the lama (the Karmapa?) who came to officiate the ceremony asked the monks who said they could put the statue there, and that it was inaccurate and then told the monks there to get rid of the statue.

Is this the same deity?

Ensapa

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2012, 11:50:18 AM »
No matter how much I zoom in, I cant see it...

Anyway some time ago I heard a story (or maybe I read it here, I cant remember) about a monastery in Nepal which was opening. And on the altar was a statue of a deity stepping on Dorje Shugden, but the lama (the Karmapa?) who came to officiate the ceremony asked the monks who said they could put the statue there, and that it was inaccurate and then told the monks there to get rid of the statue.

Is this the same deity?


I have attached and zoomed in on the images in the files attached below that clearly depict Dorje Shugden. As you can see, the worst part is they depict Dorje Shugden in robes and carrying the vinaya staff! Guru Rinpoche stepping on items that represent the vinaya! I understand that Nyingmapas have their Ngakpas that do not hold the monk vows, but this is horrible to deride the vinaya who was laid down by Shakyamuni himself in this way, who by the way, is nowhere present in the thangka. Does this mean that the Nyingmas are indeed guilty of forsaking their vows?

The one you mention is Dorje Drollo, a very fierce emanation of Guru Rinpoche that originally did not have Dorje Shugden below, just the symbolic enemy.

Dorje Drollo:

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One website that I found described Dorje Drolo as follows: "Guru Dorje Drolo is the crazy wrathful Buddha of the degenerate era. He has no regular pattern to his wrath. He is completely out of order!" He is a manifestation of crazy wisdom. He is an ecstatic manifestation of Padmasambhava, the deity Dorje Drolo embodies the forces of insight and compassion beyond logic and convention. Invoking in the practitioner the fearlessness and spontaneity of the awakened state, Dorje Drolo transforms hesitancy and clinging into enlightened activity. Dorje Drolo's energy overcomes distinctions of life and death, representing instead a continual process of giving birth to new circumstances and possibilities. Padmasambhava manifested as Dorje Drolo at numerous pilgrimage places in order to subvert indigenous Tibetan beliefs in demons and malevolent gods, redirecting their powerful energies toward the path of wisdom and compassion. Dorje Drolo, the subverter of demons, looks very wrathful. He has fangs, an overbite, and three eyes. He wears Tibetan boots, a chuba and monk's robes, two white conch shell earrings, and a garland of severed heads. His hair is bright red and curly, giving off sparks. To show how truly crazy he is, he dances on the back of a pregnant tigress, surrounded by flames which signifies the latent power of our intrinsic Buddha Nature. The tigress is often depicted as also dancing, so that everything is in motion. Dorje Drolo had 5 dakini consorts/acolytes who he worked with and engaged in tantric practice with.


Dorje Drollo has a history and background, but not Guru Tragphur.

original Dorje Drollo:



Desecrated Dorje Drollo

biggyboy

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2012, 11:49:20 AM »
It is a clear indication that this is another way for them to tell the world that Dorje Shugden is a demon or spirit.  Aren't they tired trying to paint such kind of negative impression to others?

It has been time tested and proven that Dorje Shugden is not a demon nor an evil or spirits.  If DS is, it would have been subdued long time ago.  Obviously it has not and has spread so far and wide and benefiting many more people.
http://www.dorjeshugden.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=143&catid=1&Itemid=30 

Look at the testimonials of how DS has benefited them http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?cat=943


Ensapa

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2012, 06:24:53 PM »
To me, the depiction of such images make no sense at all and it only goes to show that they are insecure about their own lineage and their own teachings. If their teachings are really that powerful and effective, then they do not need to create anti Dorje Shugden practices, chakras or images as their existing practices would already be powerful enough to ward Dorje Shugden off, that is seeing from their point of view that Dorje Shugden is bad. To be honest, the other lineages such as Kagyu or Sakya do not create such deities to "defend" against Dorje Shugden, nor did they need to modify their Dharma protectors for that purpose. Even the other lineages such as Palyul do not have that Dorje Drollo with the extra Dorje Shugden beneath, only the Dudjom has. Not to be rude or anything, but to the learned, it just shows insecurity.

What is the point of the whole fear of Dorje Shugden thing that is going on anyway? It would be an indirect way of saying that "My lineage is insufficient and not powerful enough to handle Dorje Shugden, therefore I need to create ways to show that he is inferior and to create new practices to ward him off so that my own lineage can grow". It indirectly means that their lineage does not contain enough teachings or is not powerful enough to ward of the "dangers" of Dorje Shugden and therefore they have to create something to stop Dorje Shugden. Why not be confident of your own lineage and practice, and pay no heed to Dorje Shugden and not be paranoid about him? Penor Rinpoche seems okay with Dorje Shugden practitioners and even allowed Shar Ganden to get provisions from them: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2874 and they are doing well and nothing bad has happened to them so far. They dont need a special protector against Dorje Shugden, they just do their own practice (assuming from their angle that Dorje Shugden is)

In the end, I feel, that all of these mud slinging and insecurities are not necessary. What works more effectively is that they prove themselves to be better than gelugpa and that they are not threatened or challenged by Dorje Shudgen and even until today, they have no definite proof that Dorje Shugden has harmed them in any way and yet they choose to hang on to the belief that he did. I hope that one day these images will be restored as since Dorje Shugden is wearing monks' robes which represent the vinaya and renunciation, and wears the domed hat that represents Nagajurna's perfect and flawless teachings, to step down on Dorje Shugden is to also step down on these two aspects of Buddhist teachings at the same time and that is definitely not a nice thing to proclaim.

kris

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2018, 05:14:25 PM »
Sometimes this lineage thing has gone too far. It is OK and good to promote own lineage, but when it is degrading other lineage, it has gone too far.

Tibetans has such ignorance and don't even care about the feeling of others. Tibetans don't know what is religious freedom, and if anything that does not go according to what they have been told, they immediately condemn other.

If they do this to other religions, a war may have already been started. They can try to degrade other religion and see what will happen to them. They never think about the consequences.


Rowntree

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2018, 09:47:44 PM »
No matter how much I zoom in, I cant see it...

Anyway some time ago I heard a story (or maybe I read it here, I cant remember) about a monastery in Nepal which was opening. And on the altar was a statue of a deity stepping on Dorje Shugden, but the lama (the Karmapa?) who came to officiate the ceremony asked the monks who said they could put the statue there, and that it was inaccurate and then told the monks there to get rid of the statue.

Is this the same deity?

That was the 16th Karmapa. The incident is recorded in Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche’s collected works (sungbum). The deity was a different one, it was a statue of Dorje Drolo that the Karmapa came across during an inspection of the new monastery. Dorje Drolo is a wrathful emanation of Guru Rinpoche. Similarly, this Guru Tragphur is also believe to be a wrathful manifestation of Guru Rinpoche. The Dorje Drolo that the Karmapa saw was pressing down upon a smaller figure of a monk with a round hat under his feet that resembled Dorje Shugden. The Karmapa then pointed at the statue and asked, “Who is the person that ask for this statue to be made? This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t ask for it to be made! This is not one of the deities you can rely on…” He continued, “Although the time is a little early, in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity (Dorje Shugden).”

It looks like people do made up practise for political purposes to incite hate and segregations.


dsnowlion

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2018, 07:01:50 AM »
No matter how much I zoom in, I cant see it...

Anyway some time ago I heard a story (or maybe I read it here, I cant remember) about a monastery in Nepal which was opening. And on the altar was a statue of a deity stepping on Dorje Shugden, but the lama (the Karmapa?) who came to officiate the ceremony asked the monks who said they could put the statue there, and that it was inaccurate and then told the monks there to get rid of the statue.

Is this the same deity?


No that's a different statue. That's Dorje Drolo like what Rowntree mentioned, and that the 16th Karmapa was furious when he saw the wrong image and got the monks to remove it immediately. Now, why would he do that IF it was a so-called bad spirit and said what he said? Clearly tells us who's been lying. Here's a picture of Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden created from a very ignorant artist. If you see this form of Dorje Drolo, you will know it is considered very very wrong as there is no such thing in the scriptures and is all been made when the ban started. This is how sick these people who are blinded by CTA's lies, and probably their greed, can do. They would stoop this low to actually change the iconography of their protector to tow the line with CTA and be "politically correct" and I am sure the motivation is for money/fame.

There's a forum discussion on this and more pictures were shared here... http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1809.15


DharmaSpace

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2018, 09:22:01 PM »
There are people who would make wrathful buddhist images, that steps on beings who are in robes.

How such buddhist images can be considered holy, is quite beyond me. Stepping on a being who wears the monk robes, is bringing disrepute to the holy order of monks and nuns.

Yes a lot of such images only started when the ban began in earnest from the Dalai Lama.


Rowntree

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2018, 11:21:16 AM »
There are people who would make wrathful buddhist images, that steps on beings who are in robes.

How such buddhist images can be considered holy, is quite beyond me. Stepping on a being who wears the monk robes, is bringing disrepute to the holy order of monks and nuns.

Yes a lot of such images only started when the ban began in earnest from the Dalai Lama.

Perhaps the artist who did this was also the same one attached here: Dorje Drolo stepping onto Dorje Shugden. According to Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche, he recalled an account in his collected works (sungbum) that the 16th Karmapa came across a statue of Dorje Drolo during an inspection of the new monastery. Dorje Drolo is also a wrathful emanation of Guru Rinpoche and this particular statue was pressing down upon a figure on his feet. The figure wore a round hat and was in robes, and resembled Dorje Shugden. The Karmapa was said to stand in the presence of the statue for a while and pointed at the statue and asked, “Who is the person that ask for this statue to be made? This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t ask for it to be made! This is not one of the deities you can rely on…” He continued, “Although the time is a little early, in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity (Dorje Shugden).”

So to see this Guru Tragphur thangka that is supposed to be a wrathful manifestation of Guru Rinpoche, it is not surprising to know people might just have a thangka like this made for political reasons unless there is a tradition of deity stepping on a monk figure. I do not know much but when I see this thangka, I see negativities instead of a wrathful and beneficial practice.

dsnowlion

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2018, 08:05:08 PM »
People will do anything and makeup anything to say Dorje Shugden is bad. That is the kind of poison the Tibetan Leadership has spread, unfortunately! Just like the anti-Shugden chakra invented by the previous Dudjom Rinpoche.

It is unbelievable, give the status of high Lama like him would actually be so low as to create such fake chakras to apparently protect people against Shugden. Take a look here:  http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1195.0

Quite sad to see this kind of so-called "Buddhist" teachers. It makes them look invalid and makes Buddhism look invalid, so what is the point of being Buddhist.

DharmaSpace

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2018, 05:08:21 AM »
My hope is many anti Dorje Shugden people can see for themselves and grow more spiritually and learn that having a Dorje Drolo image stepping on a being that wears robes is not auspicious or good or dharmic for that matter.

It is so bad of people to put Dorje Drolo stepping on a monk in robes,its bad for Dorje Drolo also for this buddha to be associated in staining monk robes.

Jushri

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2018, 01:26:52 PM »
For those who know their stuff will know that this is not an authentic thangka. Logically, which Buddha or enlightened deity would step on a monk or person in monk's robes? It goes against whatever we know about Buddhas.
Jushri

Celia

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Re: another desecration of a holy image
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2018, 05:14:52 PM »

Perhaps the artist who did this was also the same one attached here: Dorje Drolo stepping onto Dorje Shugden. According to Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche, he recalled an account in his collected works (sungbum) that the 16th Karmapa came across a statue of Dorje Drolo during an inspection of the new monastery. Dorje Drolo is also a wrathful emanation of Guru Rinpoche and this particular statue was pressing down upon a figure on his feet. The figure wore a round hat and was in robes, and resembled Dorje Shugden. The Karmapa was said to stand in the presence of the statue for a while and pointed at the statue and asked, “Who is the person that ask for this statue to be made? This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t ask for it to be made! This is not one of the deities you can rely on…” He continued, “Although the time is a little early, in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity (Dorje Shugden).”

Sharing the two pages from Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche's sungbum (collected works) setting out His Holiness 16th Karmapa's visit to the said monastery and his prophecy concerning the practice of Dorje Shugden. It is also very significant that (i) no one from the line of abbots and masters present at the material time dare came forward to own up to making such questionable statue of Dorje Drolo and (ii) the Karmapa ordered for the immediate removal of such questionable statue.

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So to see this Guru Tragphur thangka that is supposed to be a wrathful manifestation of Guru Rinpoche, it is not surprising to know people might just have a thangka like this made for political reasons unless there is a tradition of deity stepping on a monk figure. I do not know much but when I see this thangka, I see negativities instead of a wrathful and beneficial practice.

Agreed since from a spiritual standpoint, it does not make sense that a Buddha or enlightened beings would step on a monk figure. After all, the robes worn by monks is an emblem and reminder of the Three Jewels, as is the Buddha Statue.