I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden

[Tenzin Gyatso]

I don't know if I should be on this forum but let's give it a try. I've been watching this forum and I came over because of phayul. There were threads which talked about Shugden.

Most of you say HH Dalai Lama is wrong about speaking against Dorje Shugden. Did ever think he can be right. I know you claim much pain was caused due to the speaking out against Shugden by HHDL. But did you ever think of the pain that was caused from NOT speaking out? I mean if Dorje Shugden was not harmful, why would HHDL speak out. He gets nothing but backlash. Why would Dalai Lama knowingly hurt his own people? The media rarely speaks out about Shugden? Why? Maybe because Shugden people are wrong and there is not much news to report. No point in reporting? I mean a Nobel Peace laureate like HHDL who is celebrated by millions as a man of peace suppressing his own people by religioius segregation would be big news right?

I don't want to create trouble, but these are my thoughts. Yes, I am a follower of His Holiness and I live in Dharamsala and I've been here for over 10 years. I attend most of HHDL's talks and he is amazing to me.

[Big Uncle]

I don't know if I should be on this forum but let's give it a try. I've been watching this forum and I came over because of phayul. There were threads which talked about Shugden.

Most of you say HH Dalai Lama is wrong about speaking against Dorje Shugden. Did ever think he can be right. I know you claim much pain was caused due to the speaking out against Shugden by HHDL. But did you ever think of the pain that was caused from NOT speaking out? I mean if Dorje Shugden was not harmful, why would HHDL speak out. He gets nothing but backlash. Why would Dalai Lama knowingly hurt his own people? The media rarely speaks out about Shugden? Why? Maybe because Shugden people are wrong and there is not much news to report. No point in reporting? I mean a Nobel Peace laureate like HHDL who is celebrated by millions as a man of peace suppressing his own people by religioius segregation would be big news right?

I don't want to create trouble, but these are my thoughts. Yes, I am a follower of His Holiness and I live in Dharamsala and I've been here for over 10 years. I attend most of HHDL's talks and he is amazing to me.

Welcome to the forum, you add an interesting 'flavor' to the forum. Please comment more on the forum but refrain from using harsh language or express opinions that are derogatory towards any Lamas or lineages.

Right or wrong is a debate that has been raging on and on. I have read and heard so many reasons why Dorje Shugden is Manjushri and is beneficial but I heard so little of what the Dalai Lama said is true, that Dorje Shugden is evil. Even the reasons that the Dalai Lama had used, I am sorry and with the deepest respect, illogical.

Even if Dorje Shugden was truly evil, why is the Dalai Lama so afraid? Can't he perform a ritual to get rid of him? Can the Buddha be powerless against a mere evil spirit? Can an evil spirit harm the Bodhisattva of Compassion, Chenrezig? If the all the Buddhist rituals are powerless against a mere spirit, why should I even take refuge in the Buddha? For me, to believe in what the Dalai Lama had said about Dorje Shugden destabilizes all that I believe in Buddhism. Too many doubts and questions will appear. So, I take refuge in Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's prophesies and teachings about Dorje Shugden. It makes so much more sense.
 

[Tenzin Gyatso]

I don't know if I should be on this forum but let's give it a try. I've been watching this forum and I came over because of phayul. There were threads which talked about Shugden.

Most of you say HH Dalai Lama is wrong about speaking against Dorje Shugden. Did ever think he can be right. I know you claim much pain was caused due to the speaking out against Shugden by HHDL. But did you ever think of the pain that was caused from NOT speaking out? I mean if Dorje Shugden was not harmful, why would HHDL speak out. He gets nothing but backlash. Why would Dalai Lama knowingly hurt his own people? The media rarely speaks out about Shugden? Why? Maybe because Shugden people are wrong and there is not much news to report. No point in reporting? I mean a Nobel Peace laureate like HHDL who is celebrated by millions as a man of peace suppressing his own people by religioius segregation would be big news right?

I don't want to create trouble, but these are my thoughts. Yes, I am a follower of His Holiness and I live in Dharamsala and I've been here for over 10 years. I attend most of HHDL's talks and he is amazing to me.

Welcome to the forum, you add an interesting 'flavor' to the forum. Please comment more on the forum but refrain from using harsh language or express opinions that are derogatory towards any Lamas or lineages.

Right or wrong is a debate that has been raging on and on. I have read and heard so many reasons why Dorje Shugden is Manjushri and is beneficial but I heard so little of what the Dalai Lama said is true, that Dorje Shugden is evil. Even the reasons that the Dalai Lama had used, I am sorry and with the deepest respect, illogical.

Even if Dorje Shugden was truly evil, why is the Dalai Lama so afraid? Can't he perform a ritual to get rid of him? Can the Buddha be powerless against a mere evil spirit? Can an evil spirit harm the Bodhisattva of Compassion, Chenrezig? If the all the Buddhist rituals are powerless against a mere spirit, why should I even take refuge in the Buddha? For me, to believe in what the Dalai Lama had said about Dorje Shugden destabilizes all that I believe in Buddhism. Too many doubts and questions will appear. So, I take refuge in Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's prophesies and teachings about Dorje Shugden. It makes so much more sense.

Thanks for the welcome. Yeah, I will read up in time most of the posts.

HHDL is not afraid for himself. Shugden couldn't harm him. HHDL is afraid for all of us who have enough bad karma to warrant a triggering of problems from a negative spirit like Shugden. I mean nagas, ghosts, demons, elementals, goblins and what not all have some kind of power to harm us and if we have the karma, they can trigger our bad karma open for us to get harm. Why doesn't Buddha completely eradicate them so we don't suffer? So if Buddha can't eradicate negative ethereal beings, HHDL wouldn't eradicate Shugden.

But we have people telling us don't play with the supernatural, ghosts, demons and spirits because they could do real damage to us. So why don't all the priests, monks and whatever just subdue all the evil beings and then they don't have to warn us. Same logic. No more worries if they are all gone.

[DharmaSpace]

We hear of lamas subduing spirits that possess other human beings for example , why because they can and because BUddhism is based on the truth so negative beings can never overcome ultimate truth.

So there is this evil/negative being harming people, governments, Tibetan cause for freedom, the Dalai Lama himself, so so many things at stake and if Dorje Shugden can be send to a pure land why not? The benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Losing the Dalai Lama early is a great great blow to Buddhism, it is almost like Zamabala coming to the rescue of Shakyamuni when Devadatta tried to push a rock to crush Buddha. 

Why be so gentle to a negative being who is polluting buddha dharma? Why can't Nechung subdue Dorje Shugden to save the Dalai Lama isn't that his role?

[Tenzin Gyatso]

We hear of lamas subduing spirits that possess other human beings for example , why because they can and because BUddhism is based on the truth so negative beings can never overcome ultimate truth.

So there is this evil/negative being harming people, governments, Tibetan cause for freedom, the Dalai Lama himself, so so many things at stake and if Dorje Shugden can be send to a pure land why not? The benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Losing the Dalai Lama early is a great great blow to Buddhism, it is almost like Zamabala coming to the rescue of Shakyamuni when Devadatta tried to push a rock to crush Buddha. 

Why be so gentle to a negative being who is polluting buddha dharma? Why can't Nechung subdue Dorje Shugden to save the Dalai Lama isn't that his role?

Maybe all of our karmas collectively is too strong to allow HHDL to subdue Dorje Shugden. So he just warns us.

[Zach]

These are poor excuses on behalf of His Holiness. If Avolektishvara cannot subdue a worldly being a nor can wrathful pujas destroy it either then it is not a worldly being as HHDL's guru has said. He calls our lineage into question in a distasteful manner.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

These are poor excuses on behalf of His Holiness. If Avolektishvara cannot subdue a worldly being a nor can wrathful pujas destroy it either then it is not a worldly being as HHDL's guru has said. He calls our lineage into question in a distasteful manner.

I am not making excuses for HHDL. He doesn't need my help and he is doing really well all on his own. Advising against Shugden's practice was from his compassion. What does he gain from doing this. Take a good long think at it. It must be for the greater benefit of many. 

[DharmaSpace]

Maybe all of our karmas collectively is too strong to allow HHDL to subdue Dorje Shugden. So he just warns us.

That is not true he went beyond warning us, he banned the practise and denied Dorje Shugden practitioners their basic human rights to live. yes this is the Kaliyuga, but to assume a Buddha like HHDL cannot subdue a mere spirit due to our karma is putting down the power of Buddha Dharma.

Tibetan Buddhism has many rituals to destroy  obstacles, if the beings have obstacles these can be cleared can't they? If such obstacles hinder the destruction of Dorje Shugden. So why don't the HHDL ask all Tibetans to do purification practises so he can overcome Dorje Shugden? So HHDL makes mistakes too? 

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Maybe all of our karmas collectively is too strong to allow HHDL to subdue Dorje Shugden. So he just warns us.

That is not true he went beyond warning us, he banned the practise and denied Dorje Shugden practitioners their basic human rights to live. yes this is the Kaliyuga, but to assume a Buddha like HHDL cannot subdue a mere spirit due to our karma is putting down the power of Buddha Dharma.

Tibetan Buddhism has many rituals to destroy  obstacles, if the beings have obstacles these can be cleared can't they? If such obstacles hinder the destruction of Dorje Shugden. So why don't the HHDL ask all Tibetans to do purification practises so he can overcome Dorje Shugden? So HHDL makes mistakes too?

HHDL probably does make mistakes but much less than all the lamas who still hold onto Shugden. I mean take a good look: WHO IS THE BIGGEST TIBETAN LAMA IN THE WORLD?

So it might do us good to follow a lama who makes less mistakes? Who is far more effective in spreading Buddha Dharma than any other teacher of any religion on this earth. 

Just my thoughts.

[Zach]

These are poor excuses on behalf of His Holiness. If Avolektishvara cannot subdue a worldly being a nor can wrathful pujas destroy it either then it is not a worldly being as HHDL's guru has said. He calls our lineage into question in a distasteful manner.

I am not making excuses for HHDL. He doesn't need my help and he is doing really well all on his own. Advising against Shugden's practice was from his compassion. What does he gain from doing this. Take a good long think at it. It must be for the greater benefit of many.

For the great benefit of his political aims perhapes. Not for the benefit of Gelugpas in general his speaking out and disrespecting his spiritual guides directly contradicts the basis of reliance upon ones guru, its a double edge sword to defend his actions and at the same time expect lineage blessings to ripen on oneself while believing his gurus where in authentic spirit worshippers.

Welcome to the forum by the way. 

[Tenzin Gyatso]

These are poor excuses on behalf of His Holiness. If Avolektishvara cannot subdue a worldly being a nor can wrathful pujas destroy it either then it is not a worldly being as HHDL's guru has said. He calls our lineage into question in a distasteful manner.

I am not making excuses for HHDL. He doesn't need my help and he is doing really well all on his own. Advising against Shugden's practice was from his compassion. What does he gain from doing this. Take a good long think at it. It must be for the greater benefit of many.

For the great benefit of his political aims perhapes. Not for the benefit of Gelugpas in general his speaking out and disrespecting his spiritual guides directly contradicts the basis of reliance upon ones guru, its a double edge sword to defend his actions and at the same time expect lineage blessings to ripen on oneself while believing his gurus where in authentic spirit worshippers.

Welcome to the forum by the way. 

HHDL should not work for just the benefit of the Gelugpas. That is precisely the point.

If a few gurus have to be pointed out as wrong for the greater many, then so be it.

Thanks for the welcome btw.

[Zach]

These are poor excuses on behalf of His Holiness. If Avolektishvara cannot subdue a worldly being a nor can wrathful pujas destroy it either then it is not a worldly being as HHDL's guru has said. He calls our lineage into question in a distasteful manner.

I am not making excuses for HHDL. He doesn't need my help and he is doing really well all on his own. Advising against Shugden's practice was from his compassion. What does he gain from doing this. Take a good long think at it. It must be for the greater benefit of many.

For the great benefit of his political aims perhapes. Not for the benefit of Gelugpas in general his speaking out and disrespecting his spiritual guides directly contradicts the basis of reliance upon ones guru, its a double edge sword to defend his actions and at the same time expect lineage blessings to ripen on oneself while believing his gurus where in authentic spirit worshippers.

Welcome to the forum by the way. 

HHDL should not work for just the benefit of the Gelugpas. That is precisely the point.

If a few gurus have to be pointed out as wrong for the greater many, then so be it.

Thanks for the welcome btw.

So His Holiness should not work for the benefit of Gelugpas ? Well for the past few decades he certainly hasnt been, by pulling apart teachers reputations and splitting sanghas he has created more harm then even devadatta did to Buddha's original sangha. The Ocean Lama is ment to benefit all living beings even those of different sects but hold Je Tsongkhapas doctrine as supreme and its lineage, however he cannot have done this because the incarnate of one of his gurus has effectivly had to move countries and be as far away from these machinations as possible certainly says something when ones spiritual guide is displeased with ones actions such a connection will cease to function as well in future lives.

[beggar]

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your perspectives.

Please note that this forum and website is NOT about bashing any Lamas. The views that we hold are that we respect His Holiness the Dalai Lama very much and have much gratitude for how much he has done for Buddhism in the world, but we do not agree with the ban, nor with the logic and reasons that he has put forward about the ban. We are protesting the ban and the negative ways in which Dorje Shugden practitioners are treated by the Dala Lama's people. We are not protesting the Dalai Lama himself, we would never dare to as we do respect him very much as a teacher of so many millions of people everywhere.

First of all, may I please invite you to see these articles that we have prepared, which debate clearly and logically the arguments which have been put forward by the Dalai Lama and his supporters about this issue of Dorje Shugden. We extracted articles directly from the Dalai Lama's website regarding Shugden, and show clearly why these points are not logical nor correct, from a Dharma perspective. please see the articles here:
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=9022
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=9033
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=9039
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=9045

Secondly, your points about Dalai Lama giving us a warning and trying to protect sentient beings from the so-called "harmful" effects of Dorje Shugden. This is appreciated and I understand what you are trying to say. However, it is one thing to issue a warning and quite another to send out very obvious witchhunts against people who choose to continue the practice.

It is widely and commonly known that anti-shugden people launch physical attacks on Shugdenpas. Shugden practitioners have bricks thrown into their homes, their statues are brutally taken out and smashed up, they themselves experience physical attacks on their bodies. Shugden practitioners are denied medical aid, social welfare, voting rights; their passports are taken away; children of Shugdenpas are not permitted to attend the Tibetan schools; government workers are sacked from their jobs. Isn't this kind of reaction to Shugden practitioners also HARMFUL? If you say that Dalai Lama is protecting his people and warning them against something harmful, then why are attacks being launched against them and they are denied any kind of social help and welfare? It is completely contradictory.

Further, if you look at the statistics and reactions around the world, the moment the Dalai Lama began speaking about Shugden, he has become one of the most talked about deities in the world. The ban and the controversy has made him more famous than ever, more well known throughout countries and practitioners all over the world. There are more Dorje Shugden institutions and monasteries coming up throughout the world - just look at the recent opening of very strong Shugden institutions Serpom and Shar Gaden monasteries. The practice is stronger than ever. If Dalai Lama is chenrezig, a fully enlightened being, which we believe him to me, then why would he willingly create so much hype about a practice and draw so much more attention to something is supposed to be "bad"? Again, contradictions.

Other points have also been made to question why the Dalai Lama (or the hundreds of other high lamas) don't simply just bind this supposed "bad spirit", control him the way Guru Rinpoche did or just destroy him altogether. Why issue a warning about something that is supposed to be bad but not do anything to stop its harmful effects directly? Why just talk about it? And instead of protecting Shugden practitioners, launch more difficulties against them, kick them out of their monasteries, deny them social welfare etc etc…. It really all does not make sense and is very contradictory.

[Lineageholder]

HHDL should not work for just the benefit of the Gelugpas. That is precisely the point.

If a few gurus have to be pointed out as wrong for the greater many, then so be it.

Thanks for the welcome btw.

I agree with you, the Dalai Lama should not work only for the benefit of the the Gelugpas, but neither should he discriminate against them which is what appears to be happening.

There is no evidence anywhere, other than in the 5th Dalai Lama's biography that Dorje Shugden is a spirit but there are lots of high Gelugpa and Sakya Lamas who say he is a Buddha.

[vajratruth]

Most of you say HH Dalai Lama is wrong about speaking against Dorje Shugden. Did ever think he can be right.

Hi there TG,

The following are my observations:

(i) As Buddhist scholars, we are taught to examine all information thoroughly and to be critical of them before we accept them as facts. It is not sufficient to simply claim that HHDL or Dorje Shugden is right or wrong. You must be able to provide a basis for your claims.

(ii) The practitioners of Dorje Shugden have been able to lay out very strong arguments as to why Dorje Shugden is in fact a benevolent Buddha, and they have been very CONSISTENT in their beliefs and Dorje Shugden has been very consistent in his protection of his practitioners including HHDL. Their belief of the facts have never changed.

(ii) On the other hand, HHDL has not to my knowledge laid out any concrete reasons as to why he believes Dorje Shugden to be an evil spirit. I am not even asking for concrete proof but merely for the HHDL to set out solid reasons as to why HE believes Dorje Shugden is malicious. If HHDL truly believes that Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, then HHDL as an enlightened mind should have no problems laying our solid arguments to justify his ban of a Buddha. In fact, his compassion would have compelled him to go all the way to do so in order to protect those who may be "misguided". Why else is Chenrezig here? Surely not to win Nobel Prizes?

(iii) Assuming HHDL is right as you claim. By that definition, then Pabongkha Rinpoche was wrong, and a whole long list of High Lamas before and after Pabongkha was wrong. None of these highly attained teachers have been known to be or proven to be wrong about anything. The only exception is HHHDL who claimed he was wrong about Dorje Shugden. I wonder, WAS the HHDL wrong or IS he wrong now?

(iv) Seeing that we cannot empirically proof that a being is either an evil spirit or an enlightened Buddha, we can only do the next best and reliable thing i.e. to look at the fruits or results of either (a) continuing to practice Dorje Shugden (b) obeying HHDL instructions to abandon the practice.

The most obvious fruit shown by those who decided to keep the Dorje Shugden practice is the fact that in so doing they also decided to keep their vows to their Guru at any costs. Those who abandoned the practice deemed the vows as mere undertakings to be abandoned at their own convenience. Which is a better fruit?

Next, those who kept the practice maintained peace and observed equanimity. Those who abandoned the practice became judgmental persecutors and  vigilantes. Which is a better fruit?

I can go on but I trust you get the picture.

(v) I myself started off not knowing about Dorje Shugden and now I do and I practice this incredible Buddha. And I see the results of my practice and by that I see that with my practice of Dorje Shugden, the most hardcore of my negative habits are beginning to wane. I see myself before this practice and I see myself now. If I did see that as a result of my practicing Dorje Shugden I have become more deluded, selfish, angry etc, would I not know it? Even if I am personally blinded, would my family and friends  not intervene? Instead they ask for the basis of my change.

In other words, TG, I am open to listen to facts but there's nothing coming out of the anti-Shugden camp that is remotely digest-able by the logical and willing mind.