I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden

[hope rainbow]

Food for thoughts:

1.
To doubt the fact that Dorje Dhugden is a Buddha equates to:
- doubt that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche was a qualified Teacher,
- and doubt that Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche was a qualified Teacher.
(How could they be if they propitiated to take refuge in a spirit? And if they did not know, how come we titled them with "kyabje" and also entrusted one of them as tutor to His Holiness? And if they were spirit worshipers, then why did the Dalai Lama himself recognize their re-incarnations? Aren't spirit worshipers supposed to be end up elsewhere?)

2.
To doubt the fact that Dorje Dhugden is a Buddha therefore equates to saying that His Holiness the Dalai Lama did not have qualified Teachers.

3.
Thus, to doubt the fact that Dorje Dhugden is a Buddha equates to saying that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is not a qualified Teacher, because He would not have received the blessing of an unbroken lineage and instead would have been instructed by spirit worshipers mascarading as lamas.

If Dorje Shugden was not a Buddha, then the lineage could not be trusted, neither the lineage, neither His Holiness.

There is a flagrant contradiction right in front of us, and I think its is flagrant so that we don't miss it and think deeper, longer and with faith. Faith in His Holiness the Dalai Lama, faith in Trijang Rinpoche, faith in the lineage and faith in Dorje Shugden.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Ultimately it becomes the classic chicken and egg scenario of which one came first. Yes the Dalai Lama's gurus practiced Shugden. During their time there was Tibetan unity so Shugden was tolerated. Now during modern times when Tibetans are scattered and unity is necessary, disallowing the worship of this spirit is more than necessary.

When the HHDL gave up his practice, he told Trijang Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche was ok with it. Doesn't that say alot? I think it does. By HHDL rejecting the practice, Trijang Rinpoche should know it is like an omen of things to come.

Since Trijang Rinpoche gave permission for Dalai Lama not to practice, it is indirectly allowing the HHDL's students also not to practice.

Since the worship of Shugden has stopped in Dharamsala nothing negative has happened. No bad omens. The Dalai Lama is fine and healthy. If the HHDL is creating the causes for so many to break their samayas, shouldn't the heavy karma of breaking samayas for millions bring it's effects already? Why is HHDL not showing any signs of karmic retribution for breaking up the samayas of so called millions who gave up Shugden. So many monks and laypersons have so called gone against their lamas and rejected Shugden. This is suppose to be real heavy samaya karma. Well I don't see this karma affecting HHDL at all. He is going super strong still and still speaking out against the spirit Shugden. That itself says alot. Don't you all think?

Stop practicing Shugden already. Don't be stubborn. The facts are clear. I mean take up on of the other protectors available. What's the difference. You need a protector, just take another one that is beyond doubt of being a spirit. Safer for everyone.

[Lineageholder]

Ultimately it becomes the classic chicken and egg scenario of which one came first. Yes the Dalai Lama's gurus practiced Shugden. During their time there was Tibetan unity so Shugden was tolerated. Now during modern times when Tibetans are scattered and unity is necessary, disallowing the worship of this spirit is more than necessary.

When the HHDL gave up his practice, he told Trijang Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche was ok with it. Doesn't that say alot? I think it does. By HHDL rejecting the practice, Trijang Rinpoche should know it is like an omen of things to come.

Since Trijang Rinpoche gave permission for Dalai Lama not to practice, it is indirectly allowing the HHDL's students also not to practice.

Since the worship of Shugden has stopped in Dharamsala nothing negative has happened. No bad omens. The Dalai Lama is fine and healthy. If the HHDL is creating the causes for so many to break their samayas, shouldn't the heavy karma of breaking samayas for millions bring it's effects already? Why is HHDL not showing any signs of karmic retribution for breaking up the samayas of so called millions who gave up Shugden. So many monks and laypersons have so called gone against their lamas and rejected Shugden. This is suppose to be real heavy samaya karma. Well I don't see this karma affecting HHDL at all. He is going super strong still and still speaking out against the spirit Shugden. That itself says alot. Don't you all think?

Stop practicing Shugden already. Don't be stubborn. The facts are clear. I mean take up on of the other protectors available. What's the difference. You need a protector, just take another one that is beyond doubt of being a spirit. Safer for everyone.

Trijang Rinpoche had no choice but to accept that the Dalai Lama didn't want to practise Dorje Shugden.  Every student has a choice to practice or not and the Guru isn't going to force you to practice if you don't want to.  Apparently he was very disappointed that the Dalai Lama had rejected the practice - he in no way endorsed his decision.

If relying on a spirit is no longer required, why does the Dalai Lama still consult Nechung?  That doesn't make sense.

About the breaking of samaya that the Dalai Lama is responsible for, the reply from Nagarjuna's letter to a friend is:

(31) Although any commitment of negative karmic acts
May not cut (you) immediately afterwards like a sword;
Nevertheless, when the time of death comes,
Whatever karmic results there will be will become manifest.

Until the Dalai Lama provides some evidence that the practice of Dorje Shugden is harmful, or that he is a spirit (other than his say so) I will continue to practice for all the benefits I and others receive.   There is absolutely no sound reason to do otherwise.

[hope rainbow]

The facts that establish Dorje Shugden as a Buddha are way too many in the balance against the words pronounced by the Dalai Lama that say he is a spirit.

The words of the Dalai Lama cannot wipe out the historical facts.

The Dalai Lama's words from before in this life or previous lives demonstrate a contradiction for us to see and contemplate upon.

The Dalai Lama has NEVER shown contradictions in His speech, NEVER.
Only when it comes to Dorje Shugden. Why?
If someone had a mind of contradictions, wouldn't that show as a pattern in every part of his speech?
The Dalai Lama is an attained Teacher, he is Chenrezig, there is NO contradictions in his speech, unless He is giving us clues, unless His purpose is not for us to understand right now, unless it benefits MANY, even if I suffer in the meantime.

Why does the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden? If not to make His practice grow, for the result is there, the practice is growing, among non-followers of His Holiness and among followers of His Holiness too. If the aim was to ban the practice of Dorje Shugden, then His Holiness did not show very good skills...
But on the contrary, His Holiness has proven to the world His skillful means and His great compassion, and as TG says, He is not a Nobel Prize for nothing.
On the instance of Dorje Shugden, the Dalai Lama has shown to all again that he is skillful and acts out of Bodhicitta. Almost everyday now we receive news of new Shugden practitioners, from most every country in the world.

Dorje Shugden is the protector of Nagarjuna's teachings, as clearly taught by Tsongkhapa, He is the protector of the Guelougpa's and the Protector of all spiritual practitioners.
Dorje Shugden is very powerful because we have the karma to benefit from His activities, He is a young Protector, He is the Protector for our time.

Let's not be blind.
If Dorje Shugden was not enlightened, Trijang Rinpoche could not have taken rebirth with the 18 opportune conditions and be recognized by the Dalai Lama (same goes for many other lamas).
If Dorje Shugden was a spirit who's worship threatens His Holiness' life, then why authorize Trijang Rinpoche to practice.

My faith in the Dalai Lama is unwavering, in fact it is strengthened, for what His Holiness is doing is acting for the benefit of the many and with long term view.

To conclude (and I hope this will help):
"One is to follow His Guru's instruction with faith, for the merit gained comes from that, not from the action itself."

[Dolce Vita]

I don't know if I should be on this forum but let's give it a try. I've been watching this forum and I came over because of phayul. There were threads which talked about Shugden.

Most of you say HH Dalai Lama is wrong about speaking against Dorje Shugden. Did ever think he can be right. I know you claim much pain was caused due to the speaking out against Shugden by HHDL. But did you ever think of the pain that was caused from NOT speaking out? I mean if Dorje Shugden was not harmful, why would HHDL speak out. He gets nothing but backlash. Why would Dalai Lama knowingly hurt his own people? The media rarely speaks out about Shugden? Why? Maybe because Shugden people are wrong and there is not much news to report. No point in reporting? I mean a Nobel Peace laureate like HHDL who is celebrated by millions as a man of peace suppressing his own people by religioius segregation would be big news right?

I don't want to create trouble, but these are my thoughts. Yes, I am a follower of His Holiness and I live in Dharamsala and I've been here for over 10 years. I attend most of HHDL's talks and he is amazing to me.

I would say it is wrong when HHDL said Dorje Shugden (DS) is a demon because there are many evidences show that DS is an enlightened being; but not wrong when HHDL spoke against DS because he somehow created lots of publicity for DS. Look, which protector in this time has more publicity than DS? How many people know about, let's say Palden Lhamo as compared to DS?

It did make me curious as well, why did HHDL speak about Dorje Shugden when media was not interested at all? Why would a Nobel Peace Laureate like HHDL be so unfair to his own people? Media look for 'sellable' news, the reason why they report was because they think it didn't make sense for HHDL to ban DS, because it was just not logical, how can his life be threatened and how can the freedom of Tibet be threatened by DS? It was definitely not because DS was said to be a demon that the media reported this issue.

Think of it from another angle, could it be that HHDL is working together with DS to protect and bring Dharma to the world? Remember why DS araised? He araised as an uncommon protector of our time. He sworn to protect Tsongkhapa's Doctrine, he sacrificed his life in order to fulfill this promise. If it wasn't the ban from HHDL, would HHDL and DS become so famous in the world? Look at far Tibetan Buddhism has spread. Look at the number of Tibetan buddhist center all around the world. Look at the media coverage on Tibetan Buddhism. For enlightened beings like HHDL and DS, they have no 8 wordly concerns at all, they will do everything they can to protect and spread Dharma, including having a bad name for themselves. This is how compassionate they are.

As to whether to practice DS, one should follow the instructions of one's Guru. If HHDL is your Guru, then follow what he says for you have to keep you Guru Samaya clean. If your Guru is not HHDL, then you do not have to listen to him. But we do have to respect other Lamas.

[Ensapa]

If you think about it, it is very, very funny and illogical when it comes to trying to rationalize the ban. Why is the Dalai Lama seeing the Nechung oracle even though Nechung has been clearly stated to be not enlightened? And even if Dorje Shugden is not enlightened, there is no reason for the Dalai Lama to not speak to him via an oracle on the whole issue before the ban took place. He can communicate with Dorje Shugden directly in that way.

Second inconsistency: Ngari Rinpoche, which is also HHDL's brother, is considered as a Dorje Shugden reincarnate as he is considered the direct reincarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, as stated in the other thread. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself prophesied that he will be reborn as the Ngari tulkus. Again, this is something well known and that is documented. Samdong Rinpoche, the ex prime minister of Tibet is also widely known to be Dorje Shugden's emanation, this was said by Trijang Rinpoche himself, but he was allowed to be prime minister anyway...why would you let the manifestation of a spirit be a prime minister? Weird right? Then there is also Guru Deva Rinpoche who is widely known to be Gyenze's emanation as well. He was recognized as such...my question is, if HHDL really believes that Dorje Shugden is a spirit, why dosent he invalidate their titles or put them into exile?

Third inconsistency: The Dalai Lama cited many works in his website on why Dorje Shugden is evil. After thorough research, which you can find here in this forum, it has been proven that most of the points presented are not substantial and upon further investigation, is just the misinterpretation of the historical texts and the confusion of names. These doubts were not refuted or countered by the Dalai Lama and his people. Why would HHDL want to choose materials with poor credibility to support his stand? He is the Dalai Lama.

With all these inconsistencies for the reasons for the ban, why would someone like the Dalai Lama want to leave loose ends with the ban? Unless he is not really serious with the ban and leave these loose ends for a reason, and to send everyone a message that the ban is only temporary. If he was really serious about it, he would not leave so much loose ends to tie, even after more than 30 years since the ban was declared. Can someone like the Dalai Lama be "clumsy or sloppy" (sorry, no disrespect intended...just to get my point across) to not tie up the rest of the loose ends? Unless they were left loose for a purpose?

Maybe it is time, we put a magnifying glass at the ban to see what is really going on in reality.

[Lineageholder]

Third inconsistency: The Dalai Lama cited many works in his website on why Dorje Shugden is evil. After thorough research, which you can find here in this forum, it has been proven that most of the points presented are not substantial and upon further investigation, is just the misinterpretation of the historical texts and the confusion of names. These doubts were not refuted or countered by the Dalai Lama and his people. Why would HHDL want to choose materials with poor credibility to support his stand? He is the Dalai Lama.

With all these inconsistencies for the reasons for the ban, why would someone like the Dalai Lama want to leave loose ends with the ban? Unless he is not really serious with the ban and leave these loose ends for a reason, and to send everyone a message that the ban is only temporary. If he was really serious about it, he would not leave so much loose ends to tie, even after more than 30 years since the ban was declared. Can someone like the Dalai Lama be "clumsy or sloppy" (sorry, no disrespect intended...just to get my point across) to not tie up the rest of the loose ends? Unless they were left loose for a purpose?

Maybe it is time, we put a magnifying glass at the ban to see what is really going on in reality.

I agree, perhaps it's time to entertain another possibility that will never even be mentioned on this forum - It's precisely because he's the Dalai Lama, the God King of Tibet, that he simply expects people to believe him with scant references and faulty reasoning. And in general, he's right - some people continue to follow him with blind faith in exactly in the same way that this forum tries to find pure reasons for something that may simply be impure and a product of delusion. 

I understand that you see him as a holy being and have samaya with him which is precisely why people find it difficult to challenge him.  The Dalai Lama's possible fallibility is the elephant in the room that will never be a subject of discussion on this forum and this, with respect, is this forum's blind spot.  It's exactly as it says in the Mongoose Canine Letter:

Moreover, to challenge Lamas you have used religion for your aim. To that purpose you had to develop the Tibetan people’s blind faith. In the end you adopted the same activity that you yourself had pointed out was mistaken in other Lamas. For instance, you started the politics of public Kalachakra initiations. Normally the Kalachakra initiation is not given in public. Then you started to use it continuously in a big way for your politics. The result is that now the Tibetan people have returned to exactly the same muddy and dirty mixing of politics and religion of Lamas which you yourself had so precisely criticised in earlier times

And later it says:

Nowadays you have given the Kalachakra initiation so many times you have made the Tibetan people into donkeys. You can force them to go here and there as you like. In your words you always say that you want to be Gandhi but in your action you are like a religious fundamentalist who uses religious faith for political purposes. Your image is the Dalai Lama, your mouth is Mahatma Gandhi and your heart is like that of a religious dictator

http://dorjeshugdentruth.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/the-mixing-of-dharma-and-politics-the-mongoose-canine-letter/

It's not my intention to cause offence, I'm simply pointing out that because many people have taken the Dalai Lama as their Guru they cannot now see anything but a bigger picture in the ban and this reduces your effectiveness in being able to see what may be the truth - that the Dalai Lama has become a religious dictator who has gone against his Gurus.  Sad, but apparently true.

Do you deny that such a thing could possibly happen - that a Lama could go 'rogue' and reject his lineage and Teachers?  Is it possible to incorrectly use pure view to make excuses and in that way deny such a possible truth?  I don't think we need a bigger picture, we simply need to say that the Dalai Lama is wrong.  He's got no qualms about saying that about his own Gurus.  The fact that similar problems are being experienced by the Karma Kagyu lineage certainly seems to point to a bigger picture: that the Dalai Lama's actions are deluded and need to be seen as such.  There are no benefits to the suffering he has created for others through religious division.  Buddhas don't cause suffering to people and they certainly don't destroy pure spiritual lineages.

I'm sorry if this has upset anyone but Dharma is about examining valid reasons and thereby realizing the truth, even if that truth is unpalatable.  Can anyone give valid reasons why the assertion that the Dalai Lama's actions are deluded is not correct?  If you don't want to discuss it, I understand.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Lineageholder, I really like what you said. While faith is important in Buddhism, so is wisdom and reasoning. And while faith in the Teacher can be held supreme in the secret and internal practices of Tantra, in the public discourse out in the open we must apply reason and wisdom.

One can internally hold the Guru to be without errors, but if one discusses the actions of the Guru in public, one must rely on the observable facts, not on the pure view, on the public view but not on the internal view. If this were not so, then all tantrikas would have to say that all the wars and murderings in this world are good and pure, as they happen in the mandala and are done by emanated Buddhas of the Guru-Yidam. But as the internal view is not to be applied in the public sphere, all tantrikas can reasonably say that war and murder are bad. Therefore, all those who have pure view of HHDL must keep that vision secret, and in the public sphere accept the norms of the society, or else keep silent - they cannot put forth their internal secret view into the public discussion. At least not if they want to maintain the Tantric samaya, which require secrecy.

[dsdisciple]

Thank you LH for bringing up this important piece of information in this forum...Not sure if this has been in the forum previously before under a different title? But think  the Mongoose-Canine letter is an interesting piece of information that requires a little background information for people on the forum.

This anonymous letter was given by the Tibetan people to an English woman now living in Italy while she was travelling in Nepal in Sept 1995.

As to verifying the validity of the information contained within? I am not so sure from my personal point of view...but it certainly highlights an overview of events.

The full letter can be found in Appendix 2 of the book "A Great Deception by Western Shugden Society".

I found this book a good resource to find out more about the DS issue BUT felt uncomfortable about the validity of this piece of information presented - anonymously and then passed on again anonymously as third hand information? (I don't mean to discredit the book as a whole or the hard work done by WSS to further the debate of DS issue and ban).

I feel at this time interested parties sympathetic to DS practitioners and ending the BAN require the sound logic of presented facts without the we are right you are wrong positions.

We learn so much more as DS practitioners with full information and full facts from both sides of the debate.
A balance of objectivity and clear logic and facts to cut through distorted views in this debate.

Ensapa I agree with you about the comedy of the DS affair it does make for a great comic buddhist stand-up routine for sure...

Actually the Dalai Lama can admit to the failure of handling the Tibet Cause (check out video here) and in the next breadth accept the views of his younger brother an incarnation of Nagri Rinpoche (TDG) again on this website in an interview of his brother.

The Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche and others can practise DS even though their is the Ban.

Definitely many inconsistencies to be sure man if I had a dollar for everytime someone on this forum posted about the inconsistencies in the DS debate I'd be a rich man now but alas not to be.

I think their are subtle hints on how to move forward from both sides of the debate if we simplify the emotional parts and focus on the clear facts of the DS issue.

Dalai Lama has said DS Lama's can practise DS.
Dalai Lama has said that practitioners are free to choose practise DS or not.
Trijang Rinpoche's previous incarnation...stated that Dalai Lama and DS would appear to be working against another but DS practitioners were to have faith in both and hold vows and practice accordingly.

xo




 

[LosangKhyentse]

I agree, perhaps it's time to entertain another possibility that will never even be mentioned on this forum - It's precisely because he's the Dalai Lama, the God King of Tibet, that he simply expects people to believe him with scant references and faulty reasoning. And in general, he's right - some people continue to follow him with blind faith in exactly in the same way that this forum tries to find pure reasons for something that may simply be impure and a product of delusion. 

I understand that you see him as a holy being and have samaya with him which is precisely why people find it difficult to challenge him.  The Dalai Lama's possible fallibility is the elephant in the room that will never be a subject of discussion on this forum and this, with respect, is this forum's blind spot.  It's exactly as it says in the Mongoose Canine Letter:

I think it's not necessary to always mention about THIS FORUM's 'blind spot'. I think we should stop finding fault with this forum again and again. Year after year. This forum as well as every other forum in the world has it's faults and advantages. Just work with what we have. It's free and it's available. It's no effort on our parts for this forum to exist. Just be happy someone/group provides this space for everyone. THANK YOU TO THIS WEBSITE.

Please as a fellow practitioner of the mind trainings, please say something nice too. 

This is a wonderful OPEN public forum that we can talk about Dorje Shugden NO MATTER WHO ARE TEACHER IS, WHAT CENTRE WE BELONG TO AND WHAT TRADITION WE FOLLOW. Let's just propagate our lineage here.

I think we should feel fortunate we can band together to speak about everything that concerns Dorje Shugden in this space. We will always have differences among ourselves and THAT IS OK.

No offence to you at all. TK

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Lineageholder, I really like what you said. While faith is important in Buddhism, so is wisdom and reasoning. And while faith in the Teacher can be held supreme in the secret and internal practices of Tantra, in the public discourse out in the open we must apply reason and wisdom.

One can internally hold the Guru to be without errors, but if one discusses the actions of the Guru in public, one must rely on the observable facts, not on the pure view, on the public view but not on the internal view. If this were not so, then all tantrikas would have to say that all the wars and murderings in this world are good and pure, as they happen in the mandala and are done by emanated Buddhas of the Guru-Yidam. But as the internal view is not to be applied in the public sphere, all tantrikas can reasonably say that war and murder are bad. Therefore, all those who have pure view of HHDL must keep that vision secret, and in the public sphere accept the norms of the society, or else keep silent - they cannot put forth their internal secret view into the public discussion. At least not if they want to maintain the Tantric samaya, which require secrecy.

I agree with this. I agree 100%.

In the public view Geshe Kelsang funding scores of protests, writing, opposition against Dalai Lama does not make him look good in the public view. If he has a certain view of Dalai Lama he should have kept it secret.

Hypothesis: Dalai Lama has easily 10 million students/followers inside and outside Tibet.  Geshe Kelsang perhaps 100,000. If Geshe Kelsang 'attacks' Dalai Lama in the public arena, he damages 10 million and 100,000 persons' spiritual practice is safeguarded. If the attacks did not happen, then 10 million persons' spiritual practice is safeguarded instead of 100,000.

In other words, it would be better for Geshe Kelsang and NKT to quietly practice Dhogyal if you so insist upon it.

Geshe Kelsang's attacks, protests, writings, and stance against the Dalai Lama should never have been publicly done. It makes the millions of followers of HHDL have terrible views of Geshe Kelsang. Geshe Kelsang had to go underground and form the WSS because his open protests were a PR disaster for this old scholar monk.

A dharma centre and it's head should not use so much energy, resources and effort to protest and go against another spiritual master should they? People join dharma centres to practice the teachings. They didn't join to go and protest the views of one teacher against another did they?

Geshe Kelsang's views should be kept tantrically quiet and secret. All his students should have been advised to do the same.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Lineageholder, I really like what you said. While faith is important in Buddhism, so is wisdom and reasoning. And while faith in the Teacher can be held supreme in the secret and internal practices of Tantra, in the public discourse out in the open we must apply reason and wisdom.

One can internally hold the Guru to be without errors, but if one discusses the actions of the Guru in public, one must rely on the observable facts, not on the pure view, on the public view but not on the internal view. If this were not so, then all tantrikas would have to say that all the wars and murderings in this world are good and pure, as they happen in the mandala and are done by emanated Buddhas of the Guru-Yidam. But as the internal view is not to be applied in the public sphere, all tantrikas can reasonably say that war and murder are bad. Therefore, all those who have pure view of HHDL must keep that vision secret, and in the public sphere accept the norms of the society, or else keep silent - they cannot put forth their internal secret view into the public discussion. At least not if they want to maintain the Tantric samaya, which require secrecy.

I agree with this. I agree 100%.

In the public view Geshe Kelsang funding scores of protests, writing, opposition against Dalai Lama does not make him look good in the public view. If he has a certain view of Dalai Lama he should have kept it secret.
...

Geshe Kelsang's views should be kept tantrically quiet and secret. All his students should have been advised to do the same.

You obviously missed the point completely.

As for your case of GKG, it goes like this: Since GKG has no samaya with HHDL he cannot have any tantric pure view towards him. Therefore he specifically does not have the "tantric option" of being silent in the face of unjustice instigated by HHDL.

And in any case, all Buddhists are free to voice their voices in the face of unjustice. If the instigator is your own Guru, if one chooses to speak up, one cannot use tantric arguments, like "he is truly a Buddha, but...", since the secret view is to remain secret. In public view, as opposed to the secret view, the Gurus are capable of doing evil or just plain mistakes just as anyone else. (By common sense and general karmic view Je Tshongkhapa and even Shakyamuni Buddha did some blunders.)

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Lineageholder, I really like what you said. While faith is important in Buddhism, so is wisdom and reasoning. And while faith in the Teacher can be held supreme in the secret and internal practices of Tantra, in the public discourse out in the open we must apply reason and wisdom.

One can internally hold the Guru to be without errors, but if one discusses the actions of the Guru in public, one must rely on the observable facts, not on the pure view, on the public view but not on the internal view. If this were not so, then all tantrikas would have to say that all the wars and murderings in this world are good and pure, as they happen in the mandala and are done by emanated Buddhas of the Guru-Yidam. But as the internal view is not to be applied in the public sphere, all tantrikas can reasonably say that war and murder are bad. Therefore, all those who have pure view of HHDL must keep that vision secret, and in the public sphere accept the norms of the society, or else keep silent - they cannot put forth their internal secret view into the public discussion. At least not if they want to maintain the Tantric samaya, which require secrecy.

I agree with this. I agree 100%.

In the public view Geshe Kelsang funding scores of protests, writing, opposition against Dalai Lama does not make him look good in the public view. If he has a certain view of Dalai Lama he should have kept it secret.
...

Geshe Kelsang's views should be kept tantrically quiet and secret. All his students should have been advised to do the same.

You obviously missed the point completely.

As for your case of GKG, it goes like this: Since GKG has no samaya with HHDL he cannot have any tantric pure view towards him. Therefore he specifically does not have the "tantric option" of being silent in the face of unjustice instigated by HHDL.

And in any case, all Buddhists are free to voice their voices in the face of unjustice. If the instigator is your own Guru, if one chooses to speak up, one cannot use tantric arguments, like "he is truly a Buddha, but...", since the secret view is to remain secret. In public view, as opposed to the secret view, the Gurus are capable of doing evil or just plain mistakes just as anyone else. (By common sense and general karmic view Je Tshongkhapa and even Shakyamuni Buddha did some blunders.)

GKG creates the causes by funding so many protests for many to have wrong view about dharma, dharma resources being used incorrectly and for politics. GKG is has never been a politically leader. Why is a Tibetan Buddhist monk organizing protests which brought him so much negative PR and negative PR for the Buddhism he is teachings. This confused many.

GKG is in danger of creating negative view about NKT and Dalai Lama to millions. That would break some tantric commitments/samayas.

GKG should just quietly practice Dhogyal if he wishes. He has no authority or business as the leader of the Tibetans. So puts many at risk I feel.

GKG is a scholar for sure and good monk as far as I know, but he can make mistakes too.
Your tantric view of GKG as your teacher (secretly) is he is a tantric Buddha. But to the world stage and general view, he is a ordinary human monk that organized alot of protests that was very bad PR for Buddhism. He can be wrong about Dhogyal also.
In tantric view according to their students, they are tantric Buddhas.

If the HHDL can be wrong, so can Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in ordinary view or general view.

[Lineageholder]

I think it's not necessary to always mention about THIS FORUM's 'blind spot'. I think we should stop finding fault with this forum again and again. Year after year. This forum as well as every other forum in the world has it's faults and advantages. Just work with what we have. It's free and it's available. It's no effort on our parts for this forum to exist. Just be happy someone/group provides this space for everyone. THANK YOU TO THIS WEBSITE.

Please as a fellow practitioner of the mind trainings, please say something nice too. 

This is a wonderful OPEN public forum that we can talk about Dorje Shugden NO MATTER WHO ARE TEACHER IS, WHAT CENTRE WE BELONG TO AND WHAT TRADITION WE FOLLOW. Let's just propagate our lineage here.

I think we should feel fortunate we can band together to speak about everything that concerns Dorje Shugden in this space. We will always have differences among ourselves and THAT IS OK.

No offence to you at all. TK

Dear TK, no offence taken.  I know we are all brothers and sisters when it comes to the practice of Dorje Shugden and I deeply appreciate the efforts that have been made by the owners of this website to publicise the truth about Dorje Shugden and thus undermine the ban.  However, to ignore the possibility that the Dalai Lama's actions are deluded without valid reasons seems like denial and is not in keeping with our tradition of critically examining our beliefs.  I'm prepared to be challenged by sound reasoning too.

Are there things that we don't talk about?  Is it too taboo to consider that the Dalai Lama might not be a Buddha of Compassion but a destroyer of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition?  The evidence seems to point to this unless there are clear, logical reasons why this is not the case.

Sorry for any offence but we should be open to examining our beliefs and backing them up with valid reasoning.

[LosangKhyentse]

I think it's not necessary to always mention about THIS FORUM's 'blind spot'. I think we should stop finding fault with this forum again and again. Year after year. This forum as well as every other forum in the world has it's faults and advantages. Just work with what we have. It's free and it's available. It's no effort on our parts for this forum to exist. Just be happy someone/group provides this space for everyone. THANK YOU TO THIS WEBSITE.

Please as a fellow practitioner of the mind trainings, please say something nice too. 

This is a wonderful OPEN public forum that we can talk about Dorje Shugden NO MATTER WHO ARE TEACHER IS, WHAT CENTRE WE BELONG TO AND WHAT TRADITION WE FOLLOW. Let's just propagate our lineage here.

I think we should feel fortunate we can band together to speak about everything that concerns Dorje Shugden in this space. We will always have differences among ourselves and THAT IS OK.

No offence to you at all. TK

Dear TK, no offence taken.  I know we are all brothers and sisters when it comes to the practice of Dorje Shugden and I deeply appreciate the efforts that have been made by the owners of this website to publicise the truth about Dorje Shugden and thus undermine the ban.  However, to ignore the possibility that the Dalai Lama's actions are deluded without valid reasons seems like denial and is not in keeping with our tradition of critically examining our beliefs.  I'm prepared to be challenged by sound reasoning too.

Are there things that we don't talk about?  Is it too taboo to consider that the Dalai Lama might not be a Buddha of Compassion but a destroyer of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition?  The evidence seems to point to this unless there are clear, logical reasons why this is not the case.

Sorry for any offence but we should be open to examining our beliefs and backing them up with valid reasoning.

Dear LH,

I appreciate your views. And I am in full understanding of how much the unjust ban has hurt you, your friends, me, many people, the dharma, Gelug lineage, Gelug lamas and the general Buddha Dharma. That is why I contribute to this forum/website in any way I can and will continue to do so as a way to 'fight' back or reverse this.

Please look at it this way.

1. There are people on this forum and perhaps some of the people behind this website who have taken teachings from Dalai Lama and Shugden Lamas. So they are stuck in between. They are not 'clean' like the fortunate followers of NKT. To refrain from harsh negative speech re the Dalai Lama protects their feelings. It is not in denial of what the Dalai Lama is doing but you protecting the practice of fellow Shugden practitioners who do not have it easy like you perhaps. If the people who are Shugden practitioners abandon their guru devotion towards Dalai Lama then according to tantra they are not going to be successful in their practice. Please for their sakes, say what you want as you may not be wrong, but in a dharma gentle way perhaps. Saying it differently is not saying you are wrong or your point is not valid, it just says you are kind.

The Dalai Lama seems to have hurt many, we don't have to add to it.
So I guess my request is, of course we can talk about Dalai Lama this and that but please becareful of the people who are 'stuck' with the Dalai Lama as their teacher.

2. Many have taken teachings from Geshe Kelsang. I am sure there are many who visit this website who do not believe and trust in the actions of this courageous being. But if they started saying very harsh views of their perception of Geshe-la, it would hurt the many practitioners of Geshe-la who must have guru samaya and trust in this great being to have tantric success in our lineage. It is the same. And for new students of Geshe Kelsang in far flung areas of the world, constant harsh words that seems 'close' to the truth but are not might affect their practice and faith unnecessarily.

In an ordinary view, Geshe la and Dalai Lama both make 'mistakes' but to highlight, debate, reason, and spell out always is damaging to students of both lamas when they do their practice. It is for this we should realize the truth and say it in a way that is protective but not in lying of course.

I am not protecting the Dalai Lama, just concerned about the minds of his student also and for some who don't know any better.

3. You have your views that Dalai Lama is a wrong, deluded and destroying the Gelug. I respect that and I am not arguing that. But please protect the minds of many WHO HAVE TAKEN TEACHINGS FROM DALAI LAMA and trust Shugden AND THEY HAVE NO CHOICE ALREADY. the hundreds of monks of Serpom and Shar Gaden have taken teachings from Dalai Lama and yet do not give up Shugden. The are gentle and do not criticize Dalai Lama but that does not mean they don't know what is going on. They seperate from mainstream Tibetans without criticizing Dalai Lama as it will hurt their practice. A few very learned and senior great geshes in the monasteries have told me exactly what I am sharing with you. To protect theirs' and others' practice.

You are not wrong. My point is of course I understand your views.

4. I know for sure the Mission statement on this website to not disparage the Dalai Lama is not to feign ignorance but to protect the minds of many. I think being an advanced practitioner that you are would undertstand this please.

5. I am so glad you acknowledge the contribution of the hardworking people at this website. That is wonderful. Thank you. (Please acknowledge more often in the future. They work very hard I am sure.They will appreciate it. Thanking you ahead )

NKT and all of us should join as one to enlighten the world on the pure lineage and Manjushri quality of Shugden to work towards removing this unjust ban. After the ban is removed we can openly sit together, debate, have some tea and talk more on our views of Dalai Lama being ordinary or what? LOL. Let's work together to get rid of the ban IRREGARDLESS OF OUR DIFFERING VIEWS OF THE DALAI LAMA'S MOTIVE. Our views of Dalai Lama's motive is a small reason for us to have differences if I may please. That DOES NOT MATTER ANYMORE at this point. Let's join forces here! We have a bigger goal to achieve and we will achieve it. 

And if we do debate, it's a friendly debate and we focus on so many other qualities about our lineage and practice to educate the world.

6. Why don't we focus on consistently posting and contributing THE TRUTH ABOUT DORJE SHUGDEN AND IN THAT WAY, UNDERMINE THE BAN. You see if we keep posting about the great Shugden lamas, monasteries, teachings, lineage, practice, centres, people and activities, then automatically we show the world the ban is wrong. The negative views will melt away in time due to our results and patient illuminations moist with compassion.

We both accomplish what we want in a gently dharma manner.

Valid reason and debate are welcome but with the consideration of our words to who's practice it might damage is very importatn. The means do not justify the ends. We have to consider karma and it's effects after the ban is over.

I hope this sharing will let you know we are on the same side although we have our slight differences. That is ok.

Thank you.
Tk