Author Topic: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon  (Read 9600 times)

WisdomBeing

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The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« on: December 03, 2011, 05:40:39 AM »
In his recent speech (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/some-chinese-officials-see-me-as-a-demon-dalai-lama-154364), the Dalai Lama says that some Chinese Officials see him as a demon.

Of course he is not - as the majority know that the Dalai Lama is far from being a demon and that he is Chenrezig.

Likewise, some people think that Dorje Shugden is a demon but the majority knows that far from the being a demon, Dorje Shugden is Manjushri.

It's all just a matter of perspective.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Big Uncle

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2011, 06:24:05 AM »
It is indeed the sign of degenerate times.

Great Lamas and obviously awakened beings are feared as demons.

Practices that are beneficial to us are considered dangerous.

Monastics put on lay clothes and run around brandishing placards and shouting slogans more than they wear their robes, recite mantras and benedictions.

Holy sites usually filled with pilgrims are now sites of protests.

It is time now for Dorje Shugden to arise from the chaos of confusion to shine forth with his brilliance of sublime wisdom.

It is time now for us to right what is wrong. To bring forth understanding and clear confusion. What better time now it is to worship Dorje Shugden!

Dolce Vita

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2011, 03:39:02 PM »
How can Chenrezig be a demon? I doubt HHDL really care about how Chinese government see him, he will give up anything in order to spread the Dharma. By having a bad reputation in China, His Holiness alone is able to create awareness and spread DS practice in China to billions of people. This is a very good example of practising Dharma without the 8 wordly concerns.

Lineageholder

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2011, 07:21:25 PM »
I think that the Dalai Lama is Devaputra Mara (seriously!)

It's all a matter of perspective.

jessicajameson

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2011, 09:17:54 PM »
I really like what you said: "It's all just a matter of perspective."

Not only does accepting that statement allow us not to doubt any high lamas and Buddhas (in this case, HHDL and Dorje Shugden), BUT it also makes us less arrogant as people.

It reminds us that we can't always possibly be right, because what is "right" depends on the person and our perspective.

Lineageholder

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 10:29:21 PM »
I really like what you said: "It's all just a matter of perspective."

Not only does accepting that statement allow us not to doubt any high lamas and Buddhas (in this case, HHDL and Dorje Shugden), BUT it also makes us less arrogant as people.

It reminds us that we can't always possibly be right, because what is "right" depends on the person and our perspective.

My assessment that the Dalai Lama is Devaputra Mara is based on the effects of his actions.  He's doing a really good job of destroying Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, which is what Devaputra would do.  It's just a matter of perspective, true, but that doesn't allow us to just believe whatever we want to believe without evidence.  What makes someone a 'high lama' other than another person's faith and a big name?  Really, we have to make judgements based on a person's demeanour and actions rather than their traditional position or exalted title. Buddha encouraged us to think for ourselves rather than following a commonly accepted view.


beggar

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2011, 03:33:27 AM »
To attained beings like the Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden etc, how others see them has no effect on them - they don't love or help any less just because someone calls them a bad name or sees them in a negative light.

But from our side, we must always be careful how we react to beings like this and what views we take. It is definitely not because the Dalai Lama would do anything to us, but what karma we reap for ourselves and what benefit / disbenefit we will get in return. If we see an attained being as a demon, we will get the results of believing in a demon; if we see him as just an ordinary man, we will get the same results of believing in an ordinary man. If we see him as an enlightened being, then of course the results are much greater and we will also receive those corresponding blessings.

In all cases, whether we choose to see somebody's negativities or their positivities does not affect the person we are viewing but it affects our our own practice.

hope rainbow

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 04:32:50 AM »
To attained beings like the Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden etc, how others see them has no effect on them - they don't love or help any less just because someone calls them a bad name or sees them in a negative light.

But from our side, we must always be careful how we react to beings like this and what views we take. It is definitely not because the Dalai Lama would do anything to us, but what karma we reap for ourselves and what benefit / disbenefit we will get in return. If we see an attained being as a demon, we will get the results of believing in a demon; if we see him as just an ordinary man, we will get the same results of believing in an ordinary man. If we see him as an enlightened being, then of course the results are much greater and we will also receive those corresponding blessings.

In all cases, whether we choose to see somebody's negativities or their positivities does not affect the person we are viewing but it affects our our own practice.

Thank you very much Beggar for this post,
it really got me thinking, and the following came to my mind:

1.
From a deluded mind, we see what we can.

2.
What we see may not be what "is".

3.
From that observation, we should contemplate on the process in place that makes us see "this or "that", using the Buddha's teachings as a method to contemplate.

4.
From the side of a Buddha, how we "see" them do not affect their qualities, though it affects them in how we project (perceive) them. So it is on this "projection" that we need to work.

5.
Then, still while being "stuck" in the workings of a deluded mind, but with more knowledge over its working, we can identify which view brings about most benefit and work on its visualization.


Lineageholder

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 11:41:45 AM »
But from our side, we must always be careful how we react to beings like this and what views we take. It is definitely not because the Dalai Lama would do anything to us, but what karma we reap for ourselves and what benefit / disbenefit we will get in return. If we see an attained being as a demon, we will get the results of believing in a demon; if we see him as just an ordinary man, we will get the same results of believing in an ordinary man. If we see him as an enlightened being, then of course the results are much greater and we will also receive those corresponding blessings.

It's true that we can simply choose to see someone as a Buddha, regardless of their actions.  There then follows a contradiction: the Dalai Lama says that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit and the Gelugpa Lineage Gurus say that he is a Buddha.  The solution to this problem is to do what this forum does - assume there is a bigger picture, with both sides appearing to disagree out of some skilful means to spread the Buddhadharma.  The belief is that the Dalai Lama banning the practice, introducing Dzogchen into the Gelugpa lineage and mixing traditions together is somehow benefitting the Dharma.

Where's the evidence for this?

It's not suitable to impute anything as anything.  The reasoning that is followed in the lamrim teachings is that if someone performs the functions of a Buddha, they are a Buddha, so we should  check first of all to see if that is the case.  If someone performs the functions of a mara (obstructing or destroying the teachings), then although they could be regarded as an emanation of Buddha performing the functions of a mara (does Buddha emanate to destroy his own teachings?  What would be the point of such an emanation?) it is better to assume that they are a mara and have nothing to do with their views and actions.

We need correct discrimination.  We need to distinguish correct teachings from incorrect teachings and paths of happiness from paths of suffering.  My point is we shouldn't simply assume that someone is an exalted being simply because of their name and reputation.  When I see evidence that the Dalai Lama is actually benefitting others rather than destroying the Buddhadharma, I might change my mind.  My imputation, to be valid, needs a valid basis.

Zach

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 12:37:16 PM »
Thats pretty sound logic Lineageholder. I would assume it will be very difficult for certain people most likely those on this site who perhapes have Samaya with the Dalai lama and Lama's who practiced Dorje shugden to see either one as wrong...This is the likely outcome of having Samaya with mulitple teachers of whom views conflict with one and other.

hope rainbow

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 01:23:23 PM »
THE BLINDNESS TO SEE BUDDHAS ONLY COMES FROM MY EYES.

I wish I could see Buddhas, I wish I could say that this or that being is a Buddha because I have seen it with my eyes.
I can only say that of my Guru and my Guru's teachers, not because of my "eyes", but through logic, inference, investigation and experience.

I WOULD DOUBT MY MIND BEFORE I DOUBT ACTIONS OF A HIGH LAMA WITH CREDENTIALS LIKE THE DALAI LAMA.
Why? Because I would not want to think that I know better than the Dalai Lama, nor his teachers that recognized him. No, I do not know better than Trijang Rinpoche or Ling Rinpoche.
Some people may see the Dalai Lama as Mara, others as Chenrezig, I don't see him as either, I do not have the type of karma/merit to see him as either one or the other, I can only use logic, for that is all my karma allows for me.
And the logic cannot bring me to the conclusion that His Holiness would be Mara, for if the Dalai Lama would have wanted to bring the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa down, he would have had many powerful opportunities, he could have allied with the chinese in Tibet, he could have had an exile in the Bahamas on the beach instead of tirelessly promoting Buddhism in the world, he could have had it so much easier, so much easier...
But no, Tibetan Buddhism is now worldly known through the efforts of the high lamas diaspora (thanks to DS) and two very special beings with which many humans have a karmic connection today: Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama, so the result is there...
Yes, the method appears debatable, but maybe that is the point of the method after all...

Dolce Vita

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 03:51:21 PM »
To attained beings like the Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden etc, how others see them has no effect on them - they don't love or help any less just because someone calls them a bad name or sees them in a negative light.

But from our side, we must always be careful how we react to beings like this and what views we take. It is definitely not because the Dalai Lama would do anything to us, but what karma we reap for ourselves and what benefit / disbenefit we will get in return. If we see an attained being as a demon, we will get the results of believing in a demon; if we see him as just an ordinary man, we will get the same results of believing in an ordinary man. If we see him as an enlightened being, then of course the results are much greater and we will also receive those corresponding blessings.

In all cases, whether we choose to see somebody's negativities or their positivities does not affect the person we are viewing but it affects our our own practice.

To attained beings like the Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden etc, how others see them has no effect on them - they don't love or help any less just because someone calls them a bad name or sees them in a negative light.

But from our side, we must always be careful how we react to beings like this and what views we take. It is definitely not because the Dalai Lama would do anything to us, but what karma we reap for ourselves and what benefit / disbenefit we will get in return. If we see an attained being as a demon, we will get the results of believing in a demon; if we see him as just an ordinary man, we will get the same results of believing in an ordinary man. If we see him as an enlightened being, then of course the results are much greater and we will also receive those corresponding blessings.

In all cases, whether we choose to see somebody's negativities or their positivities does not affect the person we are viewing but it affects our our own practice.

Dear Beggar,
Thanks for the explanation, it is so true that how we see a person or a thing does not affect them at all, it is our own practice.  We should really contemplate on this: if HHDL is a demon who are here to destroy Tsongkhapa's teachings, why is he still going around the world to give teachings? Isn't the teaching he gives the teaching of Buddha Shakyamuni? Did he not bring benefit to people?


Lineageholder

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011, 10:56:39 PM »
Thats pretty sound logic Lineageholder. I would assume it will be very difficult for certain people most likely those on this site who perhapes have Samaya with the Dalai lama and Lama's who practiced Dorje shugden to see either one as wrong...This is the likely outcome of having Samaya with mulitple teachers of whom views conflict with one and other.

Good point, Zach, then I count myself to be very fortunate  :)

Anthony

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 01:47:42 AM »
All living beings are ultimately enlightened, but we still need to discriminate using convention. If someone appears to be in the wrong or causes harm then we must deal with that realty on a conventional sense with love and compassion And still see them as enlightend. Even Devaputra can be viewd in ths way correct me if Im wrong?... :D Everything is bliss and emptiness? :o

dondrup

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Re: The Dalai Lama says some Chinese Officials see him as a demon
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 04:33:24 AM »

But from our side, we must always be careful how we react to beings like this and what views we take. It is definitely not because the Dalai Lama would do anything to us, but what karma we reap for ourselves and what benefit / disbenefit we will get in return. If we see an attained being as a demon, we will get the results of believing in a demon; if we see him as just an ordinary man, we will get the same results of believing in an ordinary man. If we see him as an enlightened being, then of course the results are much greater and we will also receive those corresponding blessings.

In all cases, whether we choose to see somebody's negativities or their positivities does not affect the person we are viewing but it affects our our own practice.

I agree with Beggar.  We must always be extremely careful on how we react to all beings especially those highly attained lamas. 

Due to our ignorant and contaminated mind, we are not in the position to know whether these beings are emanations of Buddhas or highly attained Bodhisattvas.  If we criticize them ignorantly, we create severe negative karmas.  Wouldn’t it be better to practise perceiving all beings as Buddhas as taught in the Lamrim?  It is said in the Lamrim that when we perceive a being as a Buddha, we get the blessing of a Buddha.  If we perceive a being as a Bodhisattva, we get the blessing of a Bodhisattva. Finally if we view a being as an ordinary person, we get no blessing at all.  Hence, irrespective of the actual nature of His Holiness Dalai Lama (HHDL) - who is believed to be emanation of Chenrezig - wouldn’t it be beneficial to view Him as Chenrezig than as a demon?

Most of the time in our mundane world we would accept things on their face values.  For example do we really check the authenticity of the news that we heard from the media like TVs or newspapers?  How far do we go to determine whether what was reported is true and accurate? We simply do not have the resources to check 100% the accuracy of the source of information.

Similarly how far can we really check the authenticity and accuracy of what we have heard and learned about Dorje Shugden (DS) or HHDL?  Frankly speaking we do not have the resources or capacity to check DS or HHDL.  Only a Buddha knows if another being is a Buddha.

We can only infer from sound logic, observation, personal experience, faith and reliance on our lamas who are the lineage holders of Lord Buddha’s teachings. As our minds become purer and purer through sincere practice, we will then be able to perceive better beings and the environment around us as pure beings and pure environment.  In the meantime, refrain from making wrong judgement on what we perceive as right or wrong.

What we should be focusing on is to help educate other ignorant beings on the bigger picture of what DS and HHDL are doing as what this website is doing. 

May the truth prevail soon!

OM BENZA WIKI WITTANA SOHA!