Author Topic: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche  (Read 25697 times)

Mana

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 894
2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« on: September 30, 2011, 11:24:30 PM »

Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche (born October 15, 1982) is considered the current reincarnation of the Trijang Rinpoche, who was the junior tutor and spiritual guide of the 14th Dalai Lama.

Continue the legacy
Trijang Chocktrul spent much of his early life at Rabten Choeling in Switzerland, and has spent most of his adult life in Northfield, Vermont, where he founded the Trijang Buddhist Institute, to promote the spread of Tibetan Buddhism. Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche's "foremost desire is to continue the legacy of his revered predecessor, Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang" (Trijang Rinpoche).

Dorje Shugden
Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche, then lived in in Western Europe and asked for audience each time H.H. Dalai Lama visited Europe. Chocktrul Rinpoche requested His Holiness’ unconditional, compassionate acceptance to allow him to continue his relation to Dorje Shugden, who has been closely linked with the last three predecessors of the line of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoches. This has been repeatedly refused. Then when they met in Graz see what HH Dalai Lama said.

When he was a youth, he received death threats from the ‘Secret Society of External and Internal Enemy Eliminators’ for his practice of Dorje Shugden, which forced him to stop his traditional studies in India and go to Western Europe. In their meeting in Graz, Austria, in 2003, the Dalai Lama told him:

"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."


Lama Zopa of the FPMT has expressed great sadness that the Guru of both the Dalai Lama and Lama Yeshe (the founder of the FPMT) felt it necessary to take this step: The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light.

source: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Trijang-Chocktrul-Rinpoche/124472694264292?ref=ts
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 11:22:21 AM by Mana »

Mana

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 894
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2011, 11:47:33 PM »
The Dalai Lama leaves it to Trijang Rinpoche to decide to abandon Shugden and adopt Nechung. But when you read it carefully, does Trijang Rinpoche really have the choice to give up Shugden or no choice? If he does not give up, no full ordination and Geshe examinations. What do you think?

Mana

Heartspoon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2011, 06:59:43 AM »
In June 2000, Oliver Osswald reported the following:

"Anyway: a couple of weeks ago I accompanied the current Trijang Choktrul
Rinpoche to visit the Dalai Lama, who stayed at Munich at that time. Trijang
Rinpoche is going to be 18 years old and it was the first time that he went
all alone to talk to the Dalai Lama - they spoke about 20 minutes to each
other while the Dalai Lama sent everybody else out.

Rigth after that Trijang Rinpoche said to me that the Dalai Lama told him
that he should give up this practice and that he should consider that there
are only few people left who practice it. So if he would give up, he would
have lot's of disciples in the future and if not he would only have few...

He also stated, that his own root master Trijang Dorje Chang was completely
wrong in doing this practice and likewise Trijang Dorje Changs own root guru
Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama called both by their names and said
that they were completely wrong.

Means: he thinks that the person whom he calls his own root guru is a very
normal, common person like ourselves who is not able to tell write from
wrong. Leads us to the question why should we now rely on the Dalai Lama?

Why should we believe that he is more right than his guru? Why did the Dalai
Lama tell us first, that the protector is a Buddha (in eloquent prayers) and
now he tells us the opposite? Why should we believe the Dalai Lama?

However, current Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche did not accept this request and
his decisions are also not based on the reflections about whether it would
bring him lots or only few disciples. He told to the Dalai Lama that he can
not accept and that he will stay with the practice of his predecessors.

Later, when we were back at our center in Munich, I asked Trijang Rinpoche
twice whether the Dalai Lama has really said this about his own Master. The
answer was very clear: Yes, the Dalai Lama said this.

What brings myself to some thoughts about Lam Rim. Those of you who are
doing Lam Rim meditation will know what Je Tsongkhapa said about the root of
the path and the source of all good qualities...

This change in the views of the Dalai Lama - strange indeed... "

Lineageholder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2011, 08:58:21 AM »

Zach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2011, 09:43:59 AM »
In June 2000, Oliver Osswald reported the following:

"Anyway: a couple of weeks ago I accompanied the current Trijang Choktrul
Rinpoche to visit the Dalai Lama, who stayed at Munich at that time. Trijang
Rinpoche is going to be 18 years old and it was the first time that he went
all alone to talk to the Dalai Lama - they spoke about 20 minutes to each
other while the Dalai Lama sent everybody else out.

Rigth after that Trijang Rinpoche said to me that the Dalai Lama told him
that he should give up this practice and that he should consider that there
are only few people left who practice it. So if he would give up, he would
have lot's of disciples in the future and if not he would only have few...

He also stated, that his own root master Trijang Dorje Chang was completely
wrong in doing this practice and likewise Trijang Dorje Changs own root guru
Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama called both by their names and said
that they were completely wrong.

Means: he thinks that the person whom he calls his own root guru is a very
normal, common person like ourselves who is not able to tell write from
wrong. Leads us to the question why should we now rely on the Dalai Lama?

Why should we believe that he is more right than his guru? Why did the Dalai
Lama tell us first, that the protector is a Buddha (in eloquent prayers) and
now he tells us the opposite? Why should we believe the Dalai Lama?

However, current Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche did not accept this request and
his decisions are also not based on the reflections about whether it would
bring him lots or only few disciples. He told to the Dalai Lama that he can
not accept and that he will stay with the practice of his predecessors.

Later, when we were back at our center in Munich, I asked Trijang Rinpoche
twice whether the Dalai Lama has really said this about his own Master. The
answer was very clear: Yes, the Dalai Lama said this.

What brings myself to some thoughts about Lam Rim. Those of you who are
doing Lam Rim meditation will know what Je Tsongkhapa said about the root of
the path and the source of all good qualities...

This change in the views of the Dalai Lama - strange indeed... "

No wonder why HH Dalai lama is destroying the lineage. The more who speak out against him the better.

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2011, 02:01:19 PM »
Definitely i think that the Dalai Lama is not really giving HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche a choice. No wonder Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche decided to become a layperson and not be involved in the politics.

Signing the petition as mentioned in http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1388.0 thread is a good way to make our voice heard.

I wonder if HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche will become more high profile after the passing of HH Dalai Lama.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

vajrastorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2011, 11:33:07 AM »
It is courageous of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche to give up so much and to disrobe so as to be able to continue to practice Dorje Shugden.

He is also  tirelessly spreading  Je Tsongkapa's lineage teachings in the West, as well as nurturing young incarnate Tulkus like Domo Geshe Rinpoche. There is no doubt that, when the Dalai Lama passes  on, he will play a pivotal role in ensuring that the Gelug lineage teachings and the practice of Dorje Shugden will spread far and wide.

iloveds

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 200
    • An Uncommon Protector Who Can Not Be Silenced
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2011, 04:22:24 PM »
the Dalai Lama told him:

"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."


It is surprising to hear...

Sounds like the witches inquisitions where by, if you went to trial for being a witch they would tie you up weigh you down with stones then toss you in a river.

If when they pulled you out your were still alive it was confirmed you are a witch then they would burn you at the stake.

But if they pulled you out and you were dead, you would be considered not a witch and welcome into the kingdom of god. But at least you weren't labelled a witch.

Similar

whitelion

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 07:07:40 PM »
This is shocking. How can a student talk so rudely to his own guru ? HHDL left no choice for HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche but indirectly force him to not taking full odination. But does Trijang Rinpoche really need odination ? No he doesn't, although it look quite unbelievable for HHDL to said such thing to his own guru, but i do believe that's a deeper meaning behind it.

Check this out:
"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."

I do not believe a total enlighten being such as Trijang Rinpoche needs an unenlightened protector to take care of him. Why does a Buddha need help from an unenlightened deity ? This doesn't make sence, I'm sure HHDL know what he's talking about, and he must means something deeper. What is it, I do not know, but as we can see, Trijang Rinpoche has been doing a lot of retreats and he's started to nurturing the new generation of very powerful tulkus in such a young age, i believe if Trijang RInpoche would like to teach openly, no one will be able to stop his shine, and he'll never have problem to be sucessful in his dharma career.

Big Uncle

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1995
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2011, 07:44:28 PM »
the Dalai Lama told him:

"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."


This ultimatum makes me tear because I can only imagine the immense pressure this young Tulku, Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche have to undergo for the lineage of Dorje Shugden. I am in awe and I am amazed at the resoluteness of this young Tulku that he chose the middle way by returning his vows and living in Vermont away from the crazy Dorje Shugden practitioners wishing him to be their head so that he can champion their cause against the Dalai Lama (whom he revere and respect immensely). And also away from the monastery, where his presence would require him to renounce Dorje Shugden, his samaya, lineage and the Protector of many lifetimes.

Call me a fanatic or whatever. I do not see what the Dalai Lama is doing is like a witch's inquisition or anything evil. I see it like the great masters of old like Tilopa, Marpa and other great Lamas. These masters seemingly torture their students and make them perform horrendous tasks so they purify their minds to become fully awakened. I believe the Dalai Lama is placing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche through a similar trial to reveal his qualities and to purify the obstacles of innumerable future Dorje Shugden practitioners in the future as I believe Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is already awakened and can absorb obstacles. I believe he is merely waiting for his time to come when he can practice and spread Dorje Shugden publicly.

Barzin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 365
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2011, 10:35:08 PM »
This is my guess on this.  If HHDL left Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche no choice then why would them have a precious 20 mins private time?  If times and times HHDl had refused audience with the young tulku then why again this time is approved?  Was it really so simple just to "remind" the young tulku to make a choice?  Personally, whatever HHDL, Trijang Rinpoche and all the other highly attained gurus acts and talks don't bother me at all because they are monks, moreover highly attained beings.  So I don't think they are actually interested in political matters except working for a bigger purpose.

I feel that Trijang Rinpoche and HHDL are manifesting pure guru devotion, a great teaching to the students to see even obstacles at such wouldn't disturb such an attained being.  After all, pure guru devotion is the key to enlightenment.  So it is just not so simple to choose the practice but to stick to your guru, your vows and your devotion.  By having accomplish that, I don't think you need to justify yourself any further.  Switching protector to me is equivalent to switching your guru.  If you can abandon the protector is given by your own guru, doesn't it mean that you are actually abandoning your own guru?

HHDL is very kind to manifest flaws at this very time for a bigger purpose I feel.  But Trijang Rinpoche "unmovable" action and stable mind is a teaching all together for young and future practitioners because we are the one with unstable mind hence very little guru devotion.  So when the passes of HHDL, Trijang Rinpoche will then be recognized as a devoted master, highly attained and with such admirable guru devotion quality which will inspire many more students in time to come.  We just have to wait for the time.

WoselTenzin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 249
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2011, 09:18:35 AM »

Call me a fanatic or whatever. I do not see what the Dalai Lama is doing is like a witch's inquisition or anything evil. I see it like the great masters of old like Tilopa, Marpa and other great Lamas. These masters seemingly torture their students and make them perform horrendous tasks so they purify their minds to become fully awakened. I believe the Dalai Lama is placing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche through a similar trial to reveal his qualities and to purify the obstacles of innumerable future Dorje Shugden practitioners in the future as I believe Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is already awakened and can absorb obstacles. I believe he is merely waiting for his time to come when he can practice and spread Dorje Shugden publicly.

Dear Big Uncle,

Thanks for presenting another way of looking at Trijang Rinpoche's situation.  I never thought of it that way but it does make sense.  It is possible that Trijang Rinpoche is put in that position by Dalai Lama to absorb the negative karma of many people who will potentially be benefited by DS in the future.  The actions of high enlightened Lama can be beyond our comprehension.  As such it is best we do not criticise and condemn as we are not at that level where we can make informed judgment and also keeping in mind the severe negative karma consequences should we wrong a high being. 

Manjushri

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2011, 03:08:53 PM »
In June 2000, Oliver Osswald reported the following:

"Anyway: a couple of weeks ago I accompanied the current Trijang Choktrul
Rinpoche to visit the Dalai Lama, who stayed at Munich at that time. Trijang
Rinpoche is going to be 18 years old and it was the first time that he went
all alone to talk to the Dalai Lama - they spoke about 20 minutes to each
other while the Dalai Lama sent everybody else out.

Rigth after that Trijang Rinpoche said to me that the Dalai Lama told him
that he should give up this practice and that he should consider that there
are only few people left who practice it. So if he would give up, he would
have lot's of disciples in the future and if not he would only have few...

He also stated, that his own root master Trijang Dorje Chang was completely
wrong in doing this practice and likewise Trijang Dorje Changs own root guru
Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama called both by their names and said
that they were completely wrong."

I refer to Zach's quote from Heartspoon.

What I learned is that before you enter a guru-disciple relationship, you have to check that your guru posseses all qualities to guide you to enlightenment. Therefore, you have to check and know that the guru that you are calling your guru, is THE one, before acknowledging it. Once acknowledged, it should be the foundation in one's practise.

As quoted here, HHDL is saying that his guru is wrong..does that mean that HHDL is saying that he was wrong in the first place when identifying his guru? Then what makes his judgement on Dorje Shugden now correct? Identifying one's guru is the biggest step in one's spiritual journey, so if HHDL had got that "wrong", then the basis of his practise would also be questionable wouldn't it. If HHDL is saying that Trijang Dorje Chang and Pabongka Rinpoche is wrong, then the entire lineage would have been faulty in their practise...but why then have they re-incarnated back if their practise was wrong? Why would enlightened beings come back to teach a practise that is "wrong".

As an emanation of Avalokiteshavra, HHDL embodies compassion, one of the 2 lineages that is the foundation to the Lamrim (the other being wisdom). DS arose to specifically protect Nagarjuna's middle view..Atisha combined Manjushri's path of Wisdom, via Nagajurna, and Maitreya's path of compassion, via Asanga, to compose the Lamrim... why would "an evil spirit" like Dorje Shugden, be selected to protect such important teachings of Nagarjuna?

DharmaSpace

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2011, 04:40:28 PM »
When we doubt our root lama, we are in a way doubting all the lamas who recognised him. In fact we would be doubting out teachrs teacher. If we can doubt our teacher's teacher then we can doubt the entire lineage. If we doubt the entire lineage whats left of the lineage? Very dangerous reasonings.

Big Uncle

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1995
Re: 2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2011, 06:38:11 PM »

Call me a fanatic or whatever. I do not see what the Dalai Lama is doing is like a witch's inquisition or anything evil. I see it like the great masters of old like Tilopa, Marpa and other great Lamas. These masters seemingly torture their students and make them perform horrendous tasks so they purify their minds to become fully awakened. I believe the Dalai Lama is placing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche through a similar trial to reveal his qualities and to purify the obstacles of innumerable future Dorje Shugden practitioners in the future as I believe Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is already awakened and can absorb obstacles. I believe he is merely waiting for his time to come when he can practice and spread Dorje Shugden publicly.

Dear Big Uncle,

Thanks for presenting another way of looking at Trijang Rinpoche's situation.  I never thought of it that way but it does make sense.  It is possible that Trijang Rinpoche is put in that position by Dalai Lama to absorb the negative karma of many people who will potentially be benefited by DS in the future.  The actions of high enlightened Lama can be beyond our comprehension.  As such it is best we do not criticise and condemn as we are not at that level where we can make informed judgment and also keeping in mind the severe negative karma consequences should we wrong a high being. 

Thanks for the support WoselTenzin,

I think we don't have to go that mystical. The choices laid out for Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is obvious. If he is the right incarnation, he would never renounce Dorje Shugden for students and material support from the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama must know this and he must be secretly pleased with his choice because a real Lama would never pick materialism of students and sponsorship over the Dharma.

His choice is also a teaching and an example for all of us true Dorje Shugden practitioners. We should never pick materialism, fame or being right over Dorje Shugden practice. If we are true Dorje Shugden practitioners, we must be courageous and emulate Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. This must be part of the Dalai Lama's reasons for subjecting Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to this trial.