Author Topic: he Dalai Lama And The Cult Of Dolgyal Shugden - Robert Thurman  (Read 974 times)

WisdomBeing

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Wow. Dorje Shugden gets onto Huffpo!

Here's my comment:

1. There seems to be only ONE thing people condemn Shugdenpas on - this one single solitary murder in 1997 which has been allegedly attributed to Shugdenpas but never proven, yet is stated here and in all anti-Shugden propaganda as fact. Hello? Robert Thurman - I expect more from you. An academic with such a flimsy point?

2. Dorje Shugden practitioners have "been on the attack"?? Since when? What have DS practitioners been attacking pray tell?

3. The Chinese funding agenda again. Puhleeze. Actually, please do tell the Chinese government to send me some money. I wouldn't mind a few quid. Ta.

4. There is no ban. O M G. This one is really, really and i mean really OLD! There is no ban????

5. "members of the cult are free to worship their chosen "protector deity," whom they call Dorje Shugden, as much as they like." Oh really? And there is no sign outside medical centres and shops saying that Dorje Shugden practitioners are not permitted??

I could go on - there are so many holes in this article that makes it completely laughable. Anyone else want to add to these points? Come on.. it's fun!



The Dalai Lama And The Cult Of Dolgyal Shugden
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-thurman/the-dalai-lama-cult-of-dolgyal-shugden_b_4903441.html
Posted: 03/05/2014 9:21 am EST Updated: 03/05/2014 9:59 am EST

Ever since 1997, when, according to detailed Indian police investigations, pseudo- monks who infiltrated to Dharamsala from China murdered the Venerable Lobsang Gyatso, a noted lama close to the Dalai Lama, and his two young disciples, the cult of the Dolgyal-Shugden spirit has been on the attack. The well-evidenced culprits were not tried as they escaped back into Tibet and China, but the cult continued its campaign at the behest of, and with substantial funding from, the United Front department of the People's Republic of China, the agency handling relations with non-Chinese "minority nationalities." The futile effort of the cult backed by the agency seeks to alienate Tibetans from the Dalai Lama, their beloved leader and even to turn world public opinion against the acclaimed Nobel Laureate and Gandhi heir. The final aim is to disrupt the Dalai Lama's fifty-year-long nonviolent "truth and justice" campaign, to free the six million Tibetan people to be themselves in the special autonomous minority region offered them by the Chinese constitution, so far only on paper.

The cult and agency attack campaign is futile since its main claims are so easy to refute:

1) The worship of their chosen deity was not "banned" by the Dalai Lama, since he has no authority to "ban" what Tibetan Buddhists practice. "Banning" and "excommunicating" are not Tibetan Buddhist procedures.

Although they are Buddhists who should focus on emulating the Buddha, members of the cult are free to worship their chosen "protector deity," whom they call Dorje Shugden, as much as they like. The young Dalai Lama himself did propitiate it as a minor worldly spirit or angel, until he studied the history of its cult and decided it was not a protector at all, but instead a mischievous "king" spirit known as Dolgyal ("king demon from Dol"). Once his historical studies brought him to that conclusion, he recommended that other lamas in his school cease their relationship, or at least keep it to themselves, since its liturgy contains condemnation of the minority sects of Tibetan Buddhism and of non-Buddhist religions. In the late 80s', when certain individual lamas began to proselytize its cult, inducting even Western practitioners new to Buddhism, especially in England, he took the step of asking such persons to refrain from attending his initiations and associated advanced teachings, on the grounds that they were not following his advice and so should not take him as their teacher. They then went on the attack, claiming they had been "banned" and "excommunicated," etc., when in fact the Dalai Lama was exercising his religious freedom by not accepting students who reject his advice, and actually go so far as to condemn him!

2) The cult of Dolgyal Shugden is that of a minor angel or demon, and never has been mainstream, To claim that "four million" people belong to it, or even "millions," is untrue.

3) The members of the cult do not come from numerous Tibetan sects, but exclusively from the super-orthodox fundamentalists of the majority Gelukpa sect or order.

4) The Dalai Lama has never asked anyone to persecute anyone, and members of the cult who mind their own business and do not attack the Dalai Lama are not bothered by other Tibetans. Those who do attack the Dalai Lama with outrageous name-calling--"dictator," "false lama," even "demon," and "liar," etc., naturally do provoke the vast majority of Tibetans, who adore their Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama himself has never approved of either the provocations or any harsh responses, and remains steadfast in his adherence to nonviolence in principle and practice.

5) The whole fuss would have died down long ago except for the fact that the "hard-line" operatives of the "United Front Work Department" of the People's Republic of China, the agency in charge of dealing with China's "minority nationalities," sees the cult as a potential wedge they hope to drive between the Dalai Lama and his people and between him and world opinion. They therefore fund the leaders of the cult in Tibet, Mongolia, India and the West, and provide them the means to carry on their expensive propaganda campaigns. Evidence for this is very plain on the surface. For example, the so-called "Panchen Lama" reincarnation, whom the Communist party chiefs appointed after abducting and disappearing the five year old boy properly chosen in the traditional way by a committee of his monastery with approval of the Dalai Lama, is shown on the internet in various photographs sitting in front of a large icon of Dolgyal Shugden, as a sign of aggressive defiance of the Dalai Lama. The obvious fact is that the clearly stated purpose of the cult and the United Front agency of the PRC is to try to prove to the world that the Dalai Lama is not as nice as we all think, but is a bad, even "evil," person.

Whatever one believes about the reality of fierce angels or demons, it is clear that the leaders of the Dolgyal Shugden cult have done nothing over the last 30 years but cause trouble, both to their own followers and to the unity of the Tibetan people, both in exile and in Tibet. It has benefited no one except those misguided operatives in the Chinese government who wish to destroy Tibetan Buddhist culture, in order to assimilate systematically deracinated Tibetans into becoming second class Chinese citizens, and thus, through such a policy of crushing the identities and even lives of the "minority nationality" Tibetans, to secure forever their claim to the vast territories and resources of the Tibetan plateau. But as we have seen all over the world--and as aware persons can attest here in America with our still very much present First Americans--history never does end, people do not give up their distinctive identities, and truth and justice inevitably arise from the ashes of even genocidal flames.

Those who would like to read a thorough study of the Dolgyal Shugden cult by a distinguished professional journalist, can download a kindle copy of R. Bultrini, The Dalai Lama and the King Demon, published by Tibet House US.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Blueupali

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Re: he Dalai Lama And The Cult Of Dolgyal Shugden - Robert Thurman
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 03:00:04 AM »
Robert Thurman does NO credit to academia.  The vast majority of Tibetans ADORE the Dalai Lama??? That is so baby-boomer 1950s mentality; let's try: people are scared of the Dalai Lama and since he is famous throughout history for silencing the opposition by removing their heads (5th Dalai Lama for instance) then yeah, um they really say they like him, dude.
  So, basically he is just a guy that tells the lies to the west--- like it's fact.  This is because he is an old white baby boomer guy; no need for respectably backing of what he says.

WisdomBeing

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Re: he Dalai Lama And The Cult Of Dolgyal Shugden - Robert Thurman
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 08:14:41 AM »
Incidentally, this story is reproduced on tibet.net http://tibet.net/2014/03/06/the-dalai-lama-and-the-cult-of-dolgyal-shugden/ They must be very proud of this article, though it shows that they have no idea what a load of hogwash it is.

Blueupali.. you are so right re Robert Thurman doing no credit to academia. I mean i can expect some uneducated person who has blind faith in the Dalai Lama to come up with this kind of tripe but for someone who is said to be the Je Tsongkhapa Professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies at Columbia University of New York, holding the first endowed chair in this field of study in the United States, it simply reflects badly on Columbia.

However, i guess since Robert Thurman is a follower of the Dalai Lama, whose stance on Dorje Shugden is similarly unsubstantiated, it is not surprising.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Blueupali

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Re: he Dalai Lama And The Cult Of Dolgyal Shugden - Robert Thurman
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2014, 06:39:28 AM »
WisdomBeing,
  I definitely agree that Robert Thurman does no credit to Columbia University; he is really just a 'yes man' to the Dalai Lama, hiding behind a professorship. 

In an open letter to Robert Thurman, the Kagyu lama, Shamar Rinpoche, who found the Karmapa (Thaye Dorje) writes about Thurman's writing concerning the Karmapa controversy:

"you are a professor of Buddhism, a political activist, and a Buddhist, so I encourage you to not mix up these many facets of your life. For example, your political campaign for Tibet should not be mixed with your job as a scholar of Tibetan Buddhism. My personal request to you is to not to be sectarian in your profession, and to please be an honest scholar. I don't see any benefit for the US to participate in and spread this sectarianism. To be Buddhist is enough.
When I see the type of response you wrote in the case of Lea Terhune, I am concerned that you may one day go so far as to discourage students and speakers who have ever critiqued H.H. Dalai Lama or the TGIE, and further, even discourage or block the careers of anyone who is friends with any such people. Buddhists should not violate the freedom of religion and discriminate against others. In a country like the United States, which prides itself on democracy and freedom, it is a shame that a tradition like Buddhism can be used to suppress and limit people. "
---From an open letter from Shamar Rinpoche to Robert Thurman June 2006

 http://www.karmapa-issue.org/news/open_letter_thurman.htm

Big Uncle

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Re: he Dalai Lama And The Cult Of Dolgyal Shugden - Robert Thurman
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2014, 09:05:49 AM »
I am not surprise considering the fact that Thurman was famous for equating Shugden practitioners with the Taliban. It was uncalled for and clearly, there is a gross misrepresentation in that comparison and now, with such an old case that by the way, was not conclusively settled. I wouldn't be the least surprise if the original murder was a set up by extreme followers of the Dalai Lama.

Anyway, there has been no violence, reprisal or retaliations towards the followers of the Dalai Lama for all these years despite countless threats of violence, blatant discrimination, and other very hurtful actions inflicted upon Shugden practitioners. Considering this fact, I would say that the crime itself was probably a setup to frame Shugden practitioners in general and it has been used ever since to criminalise hundreds of thousands to millions of Shugden practitioners. Doesn't make sense!

Blueupali

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Re: he Dalai Lama And The Cult Of Dolgyal Shugden - Robert Thurman
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2014, 12:35:55 AM »
I think it was a set-up too, the one 'act of violence;' this sort of thing isn't really hard to arrange in a country like India where people are desperately poor in some cases; it's easier to hire desperate people and very easy to buy silence; I am really praying this ban comes down.
  As for Thurman, I really don't like people like him to use their academic credentials to control others--- not only does Thurman definitively state that Shugden is a spirit and a cult and we are the Taliban, also he uses the Columbia University Letterhead to write how upset he is that Lea Tehrune's (the Dalai Lama's Kagyus) were being sued--- so he represents his university in spreading misinformation and lies? Do you think the rest of his department of religion would expect their Catholic students, for instance, to accept without argument when some Protestants think they are idol worshipers for having statues of saints?  Would it be okay with Thurman, do you think, if we went back to the days of the Kings, and all followed the religion of whatever king was in charge?  Maybe Buddhism would be illegal, and we'd all have to be Protestant or something; do you think that would bother Mr. Thurman?

http://www.karmapa-issue.org/news/2006_documents.htm#three

samayakeeper

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Re: he Dalai Lama And The Cult Of Dolgyal Shugden - Robert Thurman
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2014, 03:28:11 AM »
Whether the practice of Dorje Shugden is demonic or spirit worshiping, which is wrongly portrayed, it is the right of the people who had practiced for centuries and the right of the people who are still practicing, and the right of the people who will continue to practice. I urge the government of independent states in this modern world to sit up and notice what the Dalai Lama and the Central Tibetan Administration are unjustly doing to its own people and those people around the world who are practicing Dorje Shugden, a practice that has helped countless people in the past, present and future. I urge these governments to speak up and say IT IS WRONG TO SUPPRESS AND OSTRACIZE the innocent and peace loving people who just want to have their religious freedom reinstated.

Positive Change

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Re: he Dalai Lama And The Cult Of Dolgyal Shugden - Robert Thurman
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2014, 11:09:06 AM »
I wonder what Robert Thurman REALLY knows, what he REALLY thinks…

I mean, for a thinker, for a man that has the intellectual package and formation, that gives lectures!

That man surely has understood all the aspects of the ban, and the write up is just like one of these speeches from the Dalai Lama about Dorje Shugden, full of un-explainable full lies, half-truths and bias…

I read somewhere and I forgot where (probably on this forum), that Robert Thurman himself had, at one point, requested to receive a Dorje Shugden initiation, yet was not granted the request.

But… if this is correct… why did he request? And to whom did he address this request?

I mean, why request to practice a demon that is a threat to the Dalai Lama’s life?

icy

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Re: he Dalai Lama And The Cult Of Dolgyal Shugden - Robert Thurman
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2014, 11:50:42 AM »
It is a wonder he was not given the Dorje Shugden initiation.  It is simple, we should send Robert Thurman this article  http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/tibetan-leadership-organizes-violence/               

AND he should watch this video:

Tibetan leadership organizes violence against Shugden people Small | Large


After this Robert Thurman should deny no more.  If he still does he is not an intellectual package nor a thinker but a 'yes' man who follows the Dalai Lama blindly.