Author Topic: Where do they go?  (Read 19451 times)

bambi

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Where do they go?
« on: June 23, 2012, 02:51:44 PM »
I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:

-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities

Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.

Big Uncle

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2012, 04:46:40 PM »
I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:

-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities

Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.

No, your question is not silly. I wondered about these cases myself and I have my own theories about such minds. People who are in coma are not brain dead and in fact, they have gone into a deep sleep and there are many cases when people wake up from coma, they will tell you of strange dreams they had. So, their minds are still very much active.

As for people who are mentally disturbed, their minds are already off due to very bad karma, most likely perpetuating wrong views. The same could be said of those who have multiple personality. I don't know the exact cause but I am just deducing. What is wrong view? Here is a good concise explanation of wrong views :-
"The '"four erroneous views" (phyin ci log bzhi) are to apprehend impurity as purity, to apprehend selflessness as self, to apprehend suffering as happiness, and to apprehend impermanence as permanence."

dondrup

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2012, 07:08:13 PM »
These minds have suffered from heavy negative karma and mental obscuration.  Though they may not function normally, these minds are still subject to the Law of Cause and Effect. Whether sentient beings are in coma, mentally disturbed or have multiple personalities, when they die, their minds will take rebirth in their next lives.  When the causes and conditions for their existence or their life spans had expired, their throwing karma propels them to take the next rebirths. 

Tammy

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2012, 10:36:55 AM »
Thank you Bambi for bring up this subject and I appreciate Big Uncle's sharing.

To me, the most disturbing situation would be, if a person's frame of mind is not 'normal' at the point of death, what would happen to it (the mind) during bardo? I mean there is much discussion and teachings on death, and we should do our daily Sadhana so well that we recognize our deity and protector when we are facing death and this could lead us to a better rebirth (karma not withstanding). There in no doubt in me that our mind will be put to extreme test (for lack of better word on my part) during bardo and it is thru practice that we could have a slim chance of controlling our mind during that period.

How happens to the mindstrem of those people who is suffering from mental illnesses until their last breath? What happen to these mind streams when in bardo? Would they behave like they were when they were 'alive' or t hey would be normal again?
Down with the BAN!!!

Aurore

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2012, 11:10:54 AM »
Mentally and personality disorders are both mental disorders. Here's a full list of different mental disorders. Knowing this, everyone has mental disorders ... it all depends on the extend and severity --->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mental_disorders

Those who are really "off" and do not know they are "off" IS because their winds of their body are already "off". I suspect the winds effects the mind hence if one is reborn again, would there be a possibility for them to be mentality ok again in their next form?

However, the form they will take on next life may not be so good as those who are mentally disturbed and multiple person can create very serious negative karma for themselves and causes others to suffer such as serial killer for example.

kurava

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2012, 11:56:12 AM »
Dear Bambi,

Very interesting topic you posted here.

We have read in dharma books that sometimes the 6 realms are all being experienced here and now in our current world system. It is the experiences that differentiate one being in the upper or lower realms .

So, perhaps the 3 examples you gave are in the lower or upper realms depending on the experiences they have. If the mentally ill people think that they are in the god realm, then that is where they are… and vice versa.

sonamdhargey

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2012, 12:13:56 PM »
Thank you Bambi for your post. It is very interesting and i do wonder sometimes about where the mind goes for these type of cases. It is worrying that these type of people will have no idea where their minds  would end up and that also if they understands the dharma. However like some of the post here mentioned that their conditions are due to their negative consequences of their karma, hence with the mind without control, I guess that the midstream will just continue based on their karma.

Q

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2012, 12:34:54 PM »
Dear Bambi, thanks for raising this question. Frankly speaking, I haven't thought of it if you didn't raise this question here.

To answer your question, the mind people in these 3 scenarios that you have mentioned is still pretty much present. Regardless of what situation they are in, these terms are just categorized in medical terms. But as a Buddhist... to my own understanding, their minds is still there.

Put aside the differences, in the end we are all the same. After all, in samsara, we are all technically deluded in one way or another, just different in intensity. Therefore, the difference that is produced is due to the karma that they are experiencing causing them to experience severe delusions... even by the worldly standards (besides those in coma).

And when we die... regardless of our mental health, our mind will travel to another existence.

Aurore

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2012, 12:47:43 PM »
Dear Bambi,

Very interesting topic you posted here.

We have read in dharma books that sometimes the 6 realms are all being experienced here and now in our current world system. It is the experiences that differentiate one being in the upper or lower realms .

So, perhaps the 3 examples you gave are in the lower or upper realms depending on the experiences they have. If the mentally ill people think that they are in the god realm, then that is where they are… and vice versa.

I kinda get what you mean by this different realm thing as certain disturbed minds who are constantly paranoid are disillusioned of being haunted by spirits. I have known someone who experienced that. Meanwhile, some mental minds have delusion of grandeur which they perceive they are someone special (god realm attitude).

If the mentally ill people think they are in god realm hence they are experiencing the god realm, does this mean that at the point of deaths, they will also go to the god realm?


Tenzin K

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2012, 12:50:50 PM »
This living body is a combination of the physical body and consciousness.  Without this consciousness, the body is dead or might be in a coma.  There is something about this consciousness that we might like to call it the "mind."    Have you ever wonder whether you ever stop thinking?  This thinking mind brings us back to the past and leads us to the future.  Each moment, our mind is actively thinking.  Even when we sleep, it doesn't like to leave us alone.  So it creates dreams.

Come to think of it, this mind is like our playtoy.  If you observe children, they can play out their imagination.  The difference is that they act out and voice out their imagination.  For us we act them out inside our consciousness.  Each moment in time, we are lost in this mind-travel.  The mind reminds us of all those experiences; likes and dislikes, fear, happiness, and all things else.  What we are thinking each time are always associated with past experiences, bounded by our world of values and prejudices which we learned from our family, our peers and our society.   

Positive Change

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2012, 12:56:57 PM »
I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:

-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities

Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.

No, your question is not silly. I wondered about these cases myself and I have my own theories about such minds. People who are in coma are not brain dead and in fact, they have gone into a deep sleep and there are many cases when people wake up from coma, they will tell you of strange dreams they had. So, their minds are still very much active.

As for people who are mentally disturbed, their minds are already off due to very bad karma, most likely perpetuating wrong views. The same could be said of those who have multiple personality. I don't know the exact cause but I am just deducing. What is wrong view? Here is a good concise explanation of wrong views :-
"The '"four erroneous views" (phyin ci log bzhi) are to apprehend impurity as purity, to apprehend selflessness as self, to apprehend suffering as happiness, and to apprehend impermanence as permanence."

Thank you Big Uncle for explaining the above... Now the question is, given that we know why they suffering such states of mind, where does the actual mind continuum go? Is it still present in the sense it perceives what is going on? Or does it wander off in limbo not quite knowing what is going on or have any perception of what is actually going on... hence a completely different perception altogether.

These altered mind states may seem different on the outside but I reckon where the mind goes, could well be a similar experience. It would not be possible to "blank" out the mindstream and it has to "go" somewhere... Interesting to find out where exactly and a the end of the day, it could well be living hell if one is actually in the present and "seeing" all but have no control over any faculties, let alone the parts of the mind that has "taken over" in the case of multiple personalities!

Can someone shed some light on this?

Galen

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2012, 04:15:36 PM »
The people who are listed here must have accumulated a lot of bad karma in their previous lives in order for them to be in this state. Their mind stream is still there but it is very difficult for them to generate merits for a better rebirth in the next life.

A person in coma where their mind may be trapped or have wondered to another place but their body is still functioning. Their mind may be lost somewhere and do not know how to come back.

A person who has multiple personalities have one mind only but it may be deluded. It is like a confused mind and do not know which direction to go. Their bad karma has ripen for them to be in this state.

A person who is mentally disturbed is already off. So much bad karma that even though they were born in a human body, they are not in the right conditions to learn dharma.

Manjushri

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2012, 05:34:29 PM »
I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:

-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities

Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.

Thank you for your post. You have posted very interesting questions.

I do wonder too what happens to the minds of these people.

The mind and the physical body are separate, therefore whatever state that one's physical body is in, is independant to the existence of the mind and where it is. It may be travelling, it may be still, I don't know, but one thing I know is that it'll never be destroyed and can be anywhere, I suppose.

For those who have mental disorder, I don't think it is the mind that is being affected. It is the connection in the brain, which is separate from the mind, that somehow doesn't connect at all. Therefore their perception of things, from the brain is clouded and blurred, and they end up they way that they are - they cannot perceive and see things as per normal. However, their mind is there, but is covered with alot of negative karma, and they are not able to use/exert the power of their mind at all. That's what I feel.

Ensapa

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2012, 05:48:38 PM »
For those in coma, their minds are still functioning properly. They might not be able to express themselves in their physical bodies anymore, but their minds are still functioning perfectly. So it makes no bearing on their next rebirth in a way but since they are no longer able to learn anything, it is definitely not a good state to be in.

As for people with  mental disorders, it depends on what kind of disorder, if it is physical which is the ripening of certain karmas that cannot be changed, or one of the 5 aggregates (excluding the obvious physical aspect) that is damaged. Certain conditions like Downs' syndrome, autism are caused by the physical wirings of the brain in which the mind taps to cause the body to function being messed up and not convey the correct signals to the body. Depression and Schizophrenia are caused by the brain not receiving certain types of chemicals to regulate serotonin as a result of perhaps many years of mental conditioning but it can be reversible when the chemicals are supplied to the brain.

The more painful ones such as multiple personality disorder or any form of personality disorder has directly to do with the mind and therefore something that will carry on to the next life. Not too sure about multiple personalities, but people with borderline personality disorder for example create the causes everyday to take rebirth in the 3 lower realms as their minds are habituated to think like the beings of the 3 lower realms: impulsive, deceptive, etc. As the result resemble the cause, we can easily see what will they end up as.

ratanasutra

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2012, 05:35:56 AM »
I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:

-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities

Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.

Thanks for questions which we all can learn together.
Many have give the clear answer with i agree that since the body still function so the mind still there but not able to perform it due to the karma they created.

What we can do for these people who suffer tremendously?

# for the one in coma, the family can sponsor a lot of pujas, do prayers, go vegetarian etc in order to collect merit for the coma person to improve in condition or to depart with peacefully.
# the one who mentally disturbed, instead of the family members depress, neglect them and put down on them, we should bring them to holy places as much as we can, take them to make offering to monks, give sponsor to the temple, teach them to recite the mantra etc so that in their next life they do not suffer life this life again.
# the ones who have multiple personalities, we can teach them to recite mantra, hold the vows, go to dharma class, listen dharma talk, engage in retreat etc so that they mind will calm and it might reflect back what happening with them, otherwise to collect merit for their next life.