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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: bambi on June 23, 2012, 02:51:44 PM
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I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:
-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities
Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.
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I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:
-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities
Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.
No, your question is not silly. I wondered about these cases myself and I have my own theories about such minds. People who are in coma are not brain dead and in fact, they have gone into a deep sleep and there are many cases when people wake up from coma, they will tell you of strange dreams they had. So, their minds are still very much active.
As for people who are mentally disturbed, their minds are already off due to very bad karma, most likely perpetuating wrong views. The same could be said of those who have multiple personality. I don't know the exact cause but I am just deducing. What is wrong view? Here is a good concise explanation of wrong views :-
"The '"four erroneous views" (phyin ci log bzhi) are to apprehend impurity as purity, to apprehend selflessness as self, to apprehend suffering as happiness, and to apprehend impermanence as permanence."
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These minds have suffered from heavy negative karma and mental obscuration. Though they may not function normally, these minds are still subject to the Law of Cause and Effect. Whether sentient beings are in coma, mentally disturbed or have multiple personalities, when they die, their minds will take rebirth in their next lives. When the causes and conditions for their existence or their life spans had expired, their throwing karma propels them to take the next rebirths.
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Thank you Bambi for bring up this subject and I appreciate Big Uncle's sharing.
To me, the most disturbing situation would be, if a person's frame of mind is not 'normal' at the point of death, what would happen to it (the mind) during bardo? I mean there is much discussion and teachings on death, and we should do our daily Sadhana so well that we recognize our deity and protector when we are facing death and this could lead us to a better rebirth (karma not withstanding). There in no doubt in me that our mind will be put to extreme test (for lack of better word on my part) during bardo and it is thru practice that we could have a slim chance of controlling our mind during that period.
How happens to the mindstrem of those people who is suffering from mental illnesses until their last breath? What happen to these mind streams when in bardo? Would they behave like they were when they were 'alive' or t hey would be normal again?
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Mentally and personality disorders are both mental disorders. Here's a full list of different mental disorders. Knowing this, everyone has mental disorders ... it all depends on the extend and severity --->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mental_disorders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mental_disorders)
Those who are really "off" and do not know they are "off" IS because their winds of their body are already "off". I suspect the winds effects the mind hence if one is reborn again, would there be a possibility for them to be mentality ok again in their next form?
However, the form they will take on next life may not be so good as those who are mentally disturbed and multiple person can create very serious negative karma for themselves and causes others to suffer such as serial killer for example.
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Dear Bambi,
Very interesting topic you posted here.
We have read in dharma books that sometimes the 6 realms are all being experienced here and now in our current world system. It is the experiences that differentiate one being in the upper or lower realms .
So, perhaps the 3 examples you gave are in the lower or upper realms depending on the experiences they have. If the mentally ill people think that they are in the god realm, then that is where they are… and vice versa.
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Thank you Bambi for your post. It is very interesting and i do wonder sometimes about where the mind goes for these type of cases. It is worrying that these type of people will have no idea where their minds would end up and that also if they understands the dharma. However like some of the post here mentioned that their conditions are due to their negative consequences of their karma, hence with the mind without control, I guess that the midstream will just continue based on their karma.
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Dear Bambi, thanks for raising this question. Frankly speaking, I haven't thought of it if you didn't raise this question here.
To answer your question, the mind people in these 3 scenarios that you have mentioned is still pretty much present. Regardless of what situation they are in, these terms are just categorized in medical terms. But as a Buddhist... to my own understanding, their minds is still there.
Put aside the differences, in the end we are all the same. After all, in samsara, we are all technically deluded in one way or another, just different in intensity. Therefore, the difference that is produced is due to the karma that they are experiencing causing them to experience severe delusions... even by the worldly standards (besides those in coma).
And when we die... regardless of our mental health, our mind will travel to another existence.
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Dear Bambi,
Very interesting topic you posted here.
We have read in dharma books that sometimes the 6 realms are all being experienced here and now in our current world system. It is the experiences that differentiate one being in the upper or lower realms .
So, perhaps the 3 examples you gave are in the lower or upper realms depending on the experiences they have. If the mentally ill people think that they are in the god realm, then that is where they are… and vice versa.
I kinda get what you mean by this different realm thing as certain disturbed minds who are constantly paranoid are disillusioned of being haunted by spirits. I have known someone who experienced that. Meanwhile, some mental minds have delusion of grandeur which they perceive they are someone special (god realm attitude).
If the mentally ill people think they are in god realm hence they are experiencing the god realm, does this mean that at the point of deaths, they will also go to the god realm?
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This living body is a combination of the physical body and consciousness. Without this consciousness, the body is dead or might be in a coma. There is something about this consciousness that we might like to call it the "mind." Have you ever wonder whether you ever stop thinking? This thinking mind brings us back to the past and leads us to the future. Each moment, our mind is actively thinking. Even when we sleep, it doesn't like to leave us alone. So it creates dreams.
Come to think of it, this mind is like our playtoy. If you observe children, they can play out their imagination. The difference is that they act out and voice out their imagination. For us we act them out inside our consciousness. Each moment in time, we are lost in this mind-travel. The mind reminds us of all those experiences; likes and dislikes, fear, happiness, and all things else. What we are thinking each time are always associated with past experiences, bounded by our world of values and prejudices which we learned from our family, our peers and our society.
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I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:
-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities
Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.
No, your question is not silly. I wondered about these cases myself and I have my own theories about such minds. People who are in coma are not brain dead and in fact, they have gone into a deep sleep and there are many cases when people wake up from coma, they will tell you of strange dreams they had. So, their minds are still very much active.
As for people who are mentally disturbed, their minds are already off due to very bad karma, most likely perpetuating wrong views. The same could be said of those who have multiple personality. I don't know the exact cause but I am just deducing. What is wrong view? Here is a good concise explanation of wrong views :-
"The '"four erroneous views" (phyin ci log bzhi) are to apprehend impurity as purity, to apprehend selflessness as self, to apprehend suffering as happiness, and to apprehend impermanence as permanence."
Thank you Big Uncle for explaining the above... Now the question is, given that we know why they suffering such states of mind, where does the actual mind continuum go? Is it still present in the sense it perceives what is going on? Or does it wander off in limbo not quite knowing what is going on or have any perception of what is actually going on... hence a completely different perception altogether.
These altered mind states may seem different on the outside but I reckon where the mind goes, could well be a similar experience. It would not be possible to "blank" out the mindstream and it has to "go" somewhere... Interesting to find out where exactly and a the end of the day, it could well be living hell if one is actually in the present and "seeing" all but have no control over any faculties, let alone the parts of the mind that has "taken over" in the case of multiple personalities!
Can someone shed some light on this?
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The people who are listed here must have accumulated a lot of bad karma in their previous lives in order for them to be in this state. Their mind stream is still there but it is very difficult for them to generate merits for a better rebirth in the next life.
A person in coma where their mind may be trapped or have wondered to another place but their body is still functioning. Their mind may be lost somewhere and do not know how to come back.
A person who has multiple personalities have one mind only but it may be deluded. It is like a confused mind and do not know which direction to go. Their bad karma has ripen for them to be in this state.
A person who is mentally disturbed is already off. So much bad karma that even though they were born in a human body, they are not in the right conditions to learn dharma.
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I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:
-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities
Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.
Thank you for your post. You have posted very interesting questions.
I do wonder too what happens to the minds of these people.
The mind and the physical body are separate, therefore whatever state that one's physical body is in, is independant to the existence of the mind and where it is. It may be travelling, it may be still, I don't know, but one thing I know is that it'll never be destroyed and can be anywhere, I suppose.
For those who have mental disorder, I don't think it is the mind that is being affected. It is the connection in the brain, which is separate from the mind, that somehow doesn't connect at all. Therefore their perception of things, from the brain is clouded and blurred, and they end up they way that they are - they cannot perceive and see things as per normal. However, their mind is there, but is covered with alot of negative karma, and they are not able to use/exert the power of their mind at all. That's what I feel.
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For those in coma, their minds are still functioning properly. They might not be able to express themselves in their physical bodies anymore, but their minds are still functioning perfectly. So it makes no bearing on their next rebirth in a way but since they are no longer able to learn anything, it is definitely not a good state to be in.
As for people with mental disorders, it depends on what kind of disorder, if it is physical which is the ripening of certain karmas that cannot be changed, or one of the 5 aggregates (excluding the obvious physical aspect) that is damaged. Certain conditions like Downs' syndrome, autism are caused by the physical wirings of the brain in which the mind taps to cause the body to function being messed up and not convey the correct signals to the body. Depression and Schizophrenia are caused by the brain not receiving certain types of chemicals to regulate serotonin as a result of perhaps many years of mental conditioning but it can be reversible when the chemicals are supplied to the brain.
The more painful ones such as multiple personality disorder or any form of personality disorder has directly to do with the mind and therefore something that will carry on to the next life. Not too sure about multiple personalities, but people with borderline personality disorder for example create the causes everyday to take rebirth in the 3 lower realms as their minds are habituated to think like the beings of the 3 lower realms: impulsive, deceptive, etc. As the result resemble the cause, we can easily see what will they end up as.
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I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:
-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities
Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.
Thanks for questions which we all can learn together.
Many have give the clear answer with i agree that since the body still function so the mind still there but not able to perform it due to the karma they created.
What we can do for these people who suffer tremendously?
# for the one in coma, the family can sponsor a lot of pujas, do prayers, go vegetarian etc in order to collect merit for the coma person to improve in condition or to depart with peacefully.
# the one who mentally disturbed, instead of the family members depress, neglect them and put down on them, we should bring them to holy places as much as we can, take them to make offering to monks, give sponsor to the temple, teach them to recite the mantra etc so that in their next life they do not suffer life this life again.
# the ones who have multiple personalities, we can teach them to recite mantra, hold the vows, go to dharma class, listen dharma talk, engage in retreat etc so that they mind will calm and it might reflect back what happening with them, otherwise to collect merit for their next life.
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I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:
-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities
Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.
Thanks for questions which we all can learn together.
Many have give the clear answer with i agree that since the body still function so the mind still there but not able to perform it due to the karma they created.
What we can do for these people who suffer tremendously?
# for the one in coma, the family can sponsor a lot of pujas, do prayers, go vegetarian etc in order to collect merit for the coma person to improve in condition or to depart with peacefully.
# the one who mentally disturbed, instead of the family members depress, neglect them and put down on them, we should bring them to holy places as much as we can, take them to make offering to monks, give sponsor to the temple, teach them to recite the mantra etc so that in their next life they do not suffer life this life again.
# the ones who have multiple personalities, we can teach them to recite mantra, hold the vows, go to dharma class, listen dharma talk, engage in retreat etc so that they mind will calm and it might reflect back what happening with them, otherwise to collect merit for their next life.
Does not the mind / consciousness only leave the body when you are dead? So in those 3 instances mentioned by Bambi, I would say that the mind is still around, lying dormant? Otherwise what happens when
a. the ones in coma suddenly awaken --- then if there is no mind, they cannot wake from coma?
b. the ones mentally disturbed --- if the mind is not present, then when/should they recover, what would happen?
c. the multiple personalities --- do they have multiple minds? Is it at all possible?
Ratanasutra, you mentioned for the family to do a lot of pujas for those in coma. Yes that will help to collect merits but what about the mind? Does puja help at all?
You also suggested for those with multiple personalities to hold vows, engage in retreats, etc - in their condition, they are not even able to hold on to being one person, let alone many personalities - how can we expect them to hold vows or engage in retreats?
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I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:
-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities
Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.
Brain is not dead for a person who is in coma. In actual fact, they can still hear or grasp what has been said or presented to him/her. There are cases that those whom has resurrected from coma, could recall vividly what has been said to him while he was in coma. Hence, will be good to read dharma books, mantra chanting, prayers or constantly make offerings to the 3 Jewels to bless his mind stream and collection of merits.
Likewise for the mentally disturbed and multiple personalities - constant medications with continuous prayers and offerings to the 3 Jewels to bless their mind stream and collection of merits would be more beneficial for them for now as they would not be able to comprehend fully or may be nothing at all on any dharma information or reading.
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A person in a state of coma is described as being comatos. Although a coma patient may appear to be awake, they are unable to consciously feel, speak, hear, or move. So their consciousness/mind is still functioning but that they cant response or express themselves.
A person with confusion, who are mentally disturbed or double personalities is considered to be in the mildest coma. They may physically look alright, but their mind is filled with delusions. Whether a person is in coma, mentally disturbed or have multiple personalities, is dependant on the level of their deluded mind due to the negative karma ripening for them to take this present rebirth and they do not have the right conditions to receive the dharma. It will be diffficult for them to collect merits to take a better rebirth in their next life.
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Thank you everyone for your interesting answers. ;D
Can I conclude that due to the negative karma accumulated, their minds are 'off' and because of that even with the 5 senses intact, they cannot practice Dharma. Their minds are in their body but they cannot control, talk and act like a normal person. Aren't these traits similar to beings in the 3 lower realms? Then it would be super beneficial to chant mantras or play Dharma related music and help them plant the seeds, right?
When they die, their mind goes back to before they were born and they continue to take rebirth until the negative karma to be 'off' exhaust in order to be 'normal' and start all over again?
And these are caused by wrong views, very heavy negative actions, wrong practices.
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Ratanasutra, you mentioned for the family to do a lot of pujas for those in coma. Yes that will help to collect merits but what about the mind? Does puja help at all?
The merit that accumulate from pujas does not go to the body of coma people but it will go to the mind as when time of death come, only mind that go to take rebirth in new body. In this case the merit go together with the mind, so if in the case that the coma people not recover from coma, it will carry on with the mind to future life and at least it could be only the merit they have accumulated from this life.
I found interesting of one coma case to share. Of course its not every case of coma have result like this.
Buddhist chants help revive Cheltenham coma man
Gloucestershire Echo, April 17, 2012
Cheltenham, UK -- WHEN pensioner Frank Soo suffered horrific head injuries in a car accident in Cheltenham, doctors gave him little chance of survival.
HEARTENED: Frank Soo and his wife of 49 years, Kitty
The 73-year-old, who lives in Pittville, was left in a coma for five days, clinging to life by a thread.
In a desperate bid to stimulate his senses, relatives played Buddhist chanting in his ward at Cheltenham General Hospital.
Amazingly, he began to respond within minutes, opening his eyes for the first time.
Now he is talking, moving and eating – albeit from his hospital bed – and looks set to confound medical experts by making a full recovery.
His daughter Karen Soo, 39, said: "It has been an incredible turnaround.
you can read more details from http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=3,10845,0,0,1,0 (http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=3,10845,0,0,1,0)
You also suggested for those with multiple personalities to hold vows, engage in retreats, etc - in their condition, they are not even able to hold on to being one person, let alone many personalities - how can we expect them to hold vows or engage in retreats?
Its can be just a vegetarian vow which i think is possible for anyone to hold it, on top of that they also can release animals like fishes, birds as well. For the retreat, if they are unable to do it, we can play mantra cd for them to listen as least they hear mantra every day which at least plant Dharma seed in their mind.
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Ratanasutra : You also suggested for those with multiple personalities to hold vows, engage in retreats, etc - in their condition, they are not even able to hold on to being one person, let alone many personalities - how can we expect them to hold vows or engage in retreats?
You also said : Its can be just a vegetarian vow which i think is possible for anyone to hold it, on top of that they also can release animals like fishes, birds as well. For the retreat, if they are unable to do it, we can play mantra cd for them to listen as least they hear mantra every day which at least plant Dharma seed in their mind.
Wikipedia explains that ... Religious vows are the public vows made by the members of religious communities pertaining to their conduct, practices and views.
In the Buddhist tradition, in particular within the Mahayana and Vajrayana tradition, many different kinds of religious vows are taken by the lay community as well as by the monastic community, as they progress along the path of practice.
Dissociative identity disorder (DID, also known as Multiple Personality Disorder in the ICD-10[1]) is a psychiatric diagnosis. According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) its essential feature "...is the presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states...that recurrently take control of behavior.
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Please explain - how can a person with multiple personalities take or hold a vow? Let's take this scenario : If personality A surfaces and takes the vow (provided he is of sound mind to know what he is doing) how can he ensure that the vegetarian vow is upheld? If it is not, he would be breaking the vow - would he not be better off without the vow?
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I have not been into a coma and I am not mentally disturbed. So, I won't be able to accurately describe what happens. However, what I think happens is that you will in a "blackout". Everything is black. You can't see, hear, touch anything. But it passes very quickly as your mind would not perceive the time as time passed. Your question is not silly as I too have wondered this many times.
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I have not been into a coma and I am not mentally disturbed. So, I won't be able to accurately describe what happens. However, what I think happens is that you will in a "blackout". Everything is black. You can't see, hear, touch anything. But it passes very quickly as your mind would not perceive the time as time passed. Your question is not silly as I too have wondered this many times.
So can it be likened to electricity running through a cable that gets snapped off, and the power is still there; so when the cable is joined back, it flows through again -- so the mind stays somewhere, while waiting for the correct moment? It stays dormant?
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Are the mind and the body separate or do they function in union.
Those in coma are not brain dead, as such I believe that the mind is still awake but the body is disassociated.
Those who are off will behave strangely or totally lost in space as being described often. Different personalities may be due to many reasons.
Actually I cannot put the real expressions on the above state as I am not medical nor have been in coma.
However having such conditions, may be the results of negative karma from previous lives whereby even in this precious human form, they do not have the 8 opportunes to learn nor practise the Dharma. Very sad.
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I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:
-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities
Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.
This is a very interesting questions. My take is that it is the same when one passed away and take rebirth in the lower realms. Say for example as a hungry ghost who is attached to a certain person. This ghost will follow that person until this person passes on and will search for that person even after that. The karma mindset of this ghost is that of attachment manifested for a very long time until somehow it is exhausted and than the ghost will take a new rebirth depending on what karma manifest. In the case of animals, they may take many rebirths as the same type of animals due the strong negative karma.
My point is that the above situations are similar to lower rebirths, but manifested within the same lifetime of that human. So my answer will be that the mind did not go anyway, But rather the mind are affected by these delusions that manifested, in coma, mentally disturbed and multiple personality.
If we observe carefully, all of use manifest some form of coma, madness and multiple personality and other form of delusional behavior on a daily basis but it is exhaust very quickly for us to identify it clearly.
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Where do they go to? Do you mean after death or while they are in mentioned states ? My take for this on the latter situation are they are just like during a deep sleep or a common mood swing we experience daily. When our mental state change it could also said to be we are experiencing the manifestation of our delusion or results of past karma, when one was in a coma we could only say that the body cease to function but the mental stream continue on as we are in a deep sleep (not that I have experience nor well research into the matter but to the common appearance, a person in coma was in a deep resting state). With regards to the second case for a mentally disturbed person , when they are in a rage their outer actions will commensurate to that particular mind stream. The same will goes for the third situation, all of this will end when the karma and conditions for them to experience all this cease to be . To most of the common cases the severe one, their condition will last till the end of their earthly existence. At the time of death a new situation arises , their next bardo state will solely determine by he/she white or black karma just as us the untrained common run-of-mill person will undergo!
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Where do they go to? Do you mean after death or while they are in mentioned states ? My take for this on the latter situation are they are just like during a deep sleep or a common mood swing we experience daily. When our mental state change it could also said to be we are experiencing the manifestation of our delusion or results of past karma, when one was in a coma we could only say that the body cease to function but the mental stream continue on as we are in a deep sleep (not that I have experience nor well research into the matter but to the common appearance, a person in coma was in a deep resting state). With regards to the second case for a mentally disturbed person , when they are in a rage their outer actions will commensurate to that particular mind stream. The same will goes for the third situation, all of this will end when the karma and conditions for them to experience all this cease to be . To most of the common cases the severe one, their condition will last till the end of their earthly existence. At the time of death a new situation arises , their next bardo state will solely determine by he/she white or black karma just as us the untrained common run-of-mill person will undergo!
Agree. Basically it is karma manifesting within another karma. A life is a manifestation of a throwing karma and it can be about 100 years but within this lifetime there can be many other karma manifesting. Also, we must understand that some karma that cause a throwing karma of another realms; say a preta/ghost; can manifest within the lifetime of a human resulting in a mentally disturbing state that can last for a moment or an entire lifetime.
So to answer the question "where do they go?". The answer is nowhere. They are still here. But the manifestation of karma is different.