Author Topic: Where do they go?  (Read 19450 times)

Jessie Fong

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2012, 04:58:38 PM »
I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:

-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities

Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.

Thanks for questions which we all can learn together.
Many have give the clear answer with i agree that since the body still function so the mind still there but not able to perform it due to the karma they created.

What we can do for these people who suffer tremendously?

# for the one in coma, the family can sponsor a lot of pujas, do prayers, go vegetarian etc in order to collect merit for the coma person to improve in condition or to depart with peacefully.
# the one who mentally disturbed, instead of the family members depress, neglect them and put down on them, we should bring them to holy places as much as we can, take them to make offering to monks, give sponsor to the temple, teach them to recite the mantra etc so that in their next life they do not suffer life this life again.
# the ones who have multiple personalities, we can teach them to recite mantra, hold the vows, go to dharma class, listen dharma talk, engage in retreat etc so that they mind will calm and it might reflect back what happening with them, otherwise to collect merit for their next life.

     


Does not the mind / consciousness only leave the body when you are dead?  So in those 3 instances mentioned by Bambi, I would say that the mind is still around, lying dormant?  Otherwise what happens when

a. the ones in coma suddenly awaken --- then if there is no mind, they cannot wake from coma?
b. the ones mentally disturbed --- if the mind is not present, then when/should they recover, what would happen? 
c. the multiple personalities --- do they have multiple minds?  Is it at all possible?

Ratanasutra, you mentioned for the family to do a lot of pujas for those in coma.  Yes that will help to collect merits but what about the mind?  Does puja help at all?

You also suggested for those with multiple personalities to hold vows, engage in retreats, etc - in their condition, they are not even able to hold on to being one person, let alone many personalities - how can we expect them to hold vows or engage in retreats?




biggyboy

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2012, 07:02:14 PM »
I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:

-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities

Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.

Brain is not dead for a person who is in coma. In actual fact, they can still hear or grasp what has been said or presented to him/her.  There are cases that those whom has resurrected from coma, could recall vividly what has been said to him while he was in coma.  Hence, will be good to read dharma books, mantra chanting, prayers or constantly make offerings to the 3 Jewels to bless his mind stream and collection of merits.
 
Likewise for the mentally disturbed and multiple personalities - constant medications with continuous prayers and offerings to the 3 Jewels to bless their mind stream and collection of merits would be more beneficial for them for now as they would not be able to comprehend fully or may be nothing at all on any dharma information or reading. 

pgdharma

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2012, 12:58:09 AM »
A person in a state of coma is described as being comatos.  Although a coma patient may appear to be awake, they are unable to consciously feel, speak, hear, or move. So their consciousness/mind is still functioning but that they cant response or express themselves.

A  person with confusion, who are mentally disturbed or double personalities is considered to be in the mildest coma. They may physically look alright, but their mind is filled with delusions. Whether a person is in coma, mentally disturbed or have multiple personalities, is dependant on the level of their deluded mind due to the negative karma ripening for them to take this present rebirth and they do not have the right conditions to receive the dharma. It will be diffficult for them to collect merits to take a better rebirth in their next life.

bambi

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2012, 06:34:46 AM »
Thank you everyone for your interesting answers.  ;D

Can I conclude that due to the negative karma accumulated, their minds are 'off' and because of that even with the 5 senses intact, they cannot practice Dharma. Their minds are in their body but they cannot control, talk and act like a normal person. Aren't these traits similar to beings in the 3 lower realms? Then it would be super beneficial to chant mantras or play Dharma related music and help them plant the seeds, right?

When they die, their mind goes back to before they were born and they continue to take rebirth until the negative karma to be 'off' exhaust in order to be 'normal' and start all over again?

And these are caused by wrong views, very heavy negative actions, wrong practices.

ratanasutra

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2012, 07:52:33 AM »
Quote
Ratanasutra, you mentioned for the family to do a lot of pujas for those in coma.  Yes that will help to collect merits but what about the mind?  Does puja help at all?


The merit that accumulate from pujas does not go to the body of coma people but it will go to the mind as when time of death come, only mind that go to take rebirth in new body. In this case the merit go together with the mind, so if in the case that the coma people not recover from coma, it will carry on with the mind to future life and at least it could be only the merit they have accumulated from this life.


I found interesting of one coma case to share. Of course its not every case of coma have result like this.

Buddhist chants help revive Cheltenham coma man
Gloucestershire Echo, April 17, 2012
Cheltenham, UK -- WHEN pensioner Frank Soo suffered horrific head injuries in a car accident in Cheltenham, doctors gave him little chance of survival.

HEARTENED: Frank Soo and his wife of 49 years, Kitty
The 73-year-old, who lives in Pittville, was left in a coma for five days, clinging to life by a thread.
In a desperate bid to stimulate his senses, relatives played Buddhist chanting in his ward at Cheltenham General Hospital.
Amazingly, he began to respond within minutes, opening his eyes for the first time.
Now he is talking, moving and eating – albeit from his hospital bed – and looks set to confound medical experts by making a full recovery.
His daughter Karen Soo, 39, said: "It has been an incredible turnaround.

you can read more details from http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=3,10845,0,0,1,0


Quote
You also suggested for those with multiple personalities to hold vows, engage in retreats, etc - in their condition, they are not even able to hold on to being one person, let alone many personalities - how can we expect them to hold vows or engage in retreats?
 


Its can be just a vegetarian vow which i think is possible for anyone to hold it, on top of that they also can release animals like fishes, birds as well. For the retreat, if they are unable to do it, we can play mantra cd for them to listen as least they hear mantra every day which at least plant Dharma seed in their mind. 

Jessie Fong

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2012, 08:54:00 AM »

Ratanasutra : You also suggested for those with multiple personalities to hold vows, engage in retreats, etc - in their condition, they are not even able to hold on to being one person, let alone many personalities - how can we expect them to hold vows or engage in retreats?
 
You also said : Its can be just a vegetarian vow which i think is possible for anyone to hold it, on top of that they also can release animals like fishes, birds as well. For the retreat, if they are unable to do it, we can play mantra cd for them to listen as least they hear mantra every day which at least plant Dharma seed in their mind.

Wikipedia explains that ... Religious vows are the public vows made by the members of religious communities pertaining to their conduct, practices and views.

In the Buddhist tradition, in particular within the Mahayana and Vajrayana tradition, many different kinds of religious vows are taken by the lay community as well as by the monastic community, as they progress along the path of practice.

Dissociative identity disorder (DID, also known as Multiple Personality Disorder in the ICD-10[1]) is a psychiatric diagnosis. According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) its essential feature "...is the presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states...that recurrently take control of behavior.

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Please explain - how can a person with multiple personalities take or hold a vow?  Let's take this scenario : If personality A surfaces and takes the vow (provided he is of sound mind to know what he is doing) how can he ensure that the vegetarian vow is upheld?  If it is not, he would be breaking the vow - would he not be better off without the vow?

ilikeshugden

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2012, 11:14:46 AM »
I have not been into a coma and I am not mentally disturbed. So, I won't be able to accurately describe what happens. However, what I think happens is that you will in a "blackout". Everything is black. You can't see, hear, touch anything. But it passes very quickly as your mind would not perceive the time as time passed. Your question is not silly as I too have wondered this many times.

Jessie Fong

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2012, 12:18:44 PM »
I have not been into a coma and I am not mentally disturbed. So, I won't be able to accurately describe what happens. However, what I think happens is that you will in a "blackout". Everything is black. You can't see, hear, touch anything. But it passes very quickly as your mind would not perceive the time as time passed. Your question is not silly as I too have wondered this many times.

So can it be likened to electricity running through a cable that gets snapped off, and the power is still there; so when the cable is joined back, it flows through again -- so the mind stays somewhere, while waiting for the correct moment?  It stays dormant?

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2015, 06:29:08 PM »
Are the mind and the body separate or do they function in union.

Those in coma are not brain dead, as such I believe that the mind is still awake but the body is disassociated.

Those who are off will behave strangely or totally lost in space as being described often.  Different personalities may be due to many reasons.

Actually I cannot put the real expressions on the above state as I am not medical nor have been in coma.

However having such conditions, may be the results of negative karma from previous lives whereby even in this precious human form, they do not have the 8 opportunes to learn nor practise the Dharma.  Very sad.

yontenjamyang

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2015, 04:48:33 AM »
I have often wondered what happen to the minds of these people:

-the ones in coma
-the ones who are mentally disturbed
-the ones who have multiple personalities

Buddha taught us that only our mind travel after we die but what about the minds mentioned above?
I have read and seen things like this happening every other days but I can't seem to find the teachings on this. Sorry if my question seems silly.

This is a very interesting questions. My take is that it is the same when one passed away and take rebirth in the lower realms. Say for example as a hungry ghost who is attached to a certain person. This ghost will follow that person until this person passes on and will search for that person even after that. The karma mindset of this ghost is that of attachment manifested for a very long time until somehow it is exhausted and than the ghost will take a new rebirth depending on what karma manifest. In the case of animals, they may take many rebirths as the same type of animals due the strong negative karma.

My point is that the above situations are similar to lower rebirths, but manifested within the same lifetime of that human. So my answer will be that the mind did not go anyway, But rather the mind are affected by these delusions that manifested, in coma, mentally disturbed and multiple personality.

If we observe carefully, all of use manifest some form of coma, madness and multiple personality and other form of delusional behavior on a daily basis but it is exhaust very quickly for us to identify it clearly.

MoMo

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2015, 01:19:52 PM »
Where do they go to? Do you mean after death or while they are in mentioned states ? My take for this on the latter situation are they are just like during a deep sleep or a common mood swing we experience daily. When our mental state change it could also said to be we are experiencing the manifestation of our delusion or results of past karma,  when one was in a coma we could only say that the body cease to function but the mental stream continue on as we are in a deep sleep (not that I have experience nor well research into the matter but to the common appearance, a person in coma was  in a deep resting state). With regards to the second case for a mentally disturbed person , when they are in a rage their outer actions will commensurate to that particular mind stream. The same will goes for the third situation, all of this will end when the karma and conditions for them to experience all this cease to be . To most of the common cases the severe one, their condition will last till the end of their earthly existence. At the time of death a new situation arises , their next bardo state will solely determine by he/she  white or black karma  just as us the untrained common run-of-mill person will undergo!

yontenjamyang

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Re: Where do they go?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2015, 05:45:09 AM »
Where do they go to? Do you mean after death or while they are in mentioned states ? My take for this on the latter situation are they are just like during a deep sleep or a common mood swing we experience daily. When our mental state change it could also said to be we are experiencing the manifestation of our delusion or results of past karma,  when one was in a coma we could only say that the body cease to function but the mental stream continue on as we are in a deep sleep (not that I have experience nor well research into the matter but to the common appearance, a person in coma was  in a deep resting state). With regards to the second case for a mentally disturbed person , when they are in a rage their outer actions will commensurate to that particular mind stream. The same will goes for the third situation, all of this will end when the karma and conditions for them to experience all this cease to be . To most of the common cases the severe one, their condition will last till the end of their earthly existence. At the time of death a new situation arises , their next bardo state will solely determine by he/she  white or black karma  just as us the untrained common run-of-mill person will undergo!

Agree. Basically it is karma manifesting within another karma. A life is a manifestation of a throwing karma and it can be about 100 years but within this lifetime there can be many other karma manifesting. Also, we must understand that some karma that cause a throwing karma of another realms; say a preta/ghost; can manifest within the lifetime of a human resulting in a mentally disturbing state that can last for a moment or an entire lifetime.
So to answer the question "where do they go?". The answer is nowhere. They are still here. But the manifestation of karma is different.